I came across this article, and something about it totally creeps me out the door:
He once sought blood. Now he wants justice.
The father of a 15-year-old girl who reported being gang-raped after an underage drinking party in Neptune Beach a month ago said Monday he is patiently waiting for police to solve the case and has no plans to rest until then.
The Tennessee man said he came to Jacksonville seeking revenge after learning of the attack, which police said occurred on the beach after the girl and others left the party. But as time passed he said he began to focus more on wanting those involved to be caught and punished as a message of intolerance.
“I pray for something that breaks it [the case],” the 37-year-old man said in a telephone interview. “I’m not going to have someone victimized and there not be someone who pays a price.”
Okay, first of all, that first sentence sounds like a trailer for a Jean Claude Van Damme movie.
Second, I think it’s great that this girl’s father is supportive of her and takes sexual assault seriously. But something about the way the article totally focuses on his emotions, his thoughts, his reactions… It’s as if there has been a crime against this guy and his property, not another person.
Kinda gives me those purity ball wiggins.
Actually, it sounds just like Genesis 34.
Strange reading of the quote.
As parents, what our children experience is felt on a very personal level. I can imagine the father is experiencing a lot of pain over not being able to protect his child. I’m the mother of a male and have felt pain over not being able to protect my son- it wasn’t written about in any article, but, I can feel for the father, child and community for that matter.
From the quoted text, I have to disagree. I’m pretty sure that my dad would react the same way if he knew…
I think what the author is going for by writing this article this way is to be able to punch other dads in the stomach, emotionally, trying to help illustrate what it feels like when someone you love is sexually assaulted, because, let’s face it, dads like the one in the article are never going to experience sexual assault first-hand, so detailing the emotions in this way would be more realistic to a male reader and thus male readers (dads especially) would be better able to understand how awful it is to go through this — better than if they just detailed the girl’s emotional reaction to it because most of the time people who don’t have the capacity to feel those kinds of things (and most men haven’t and won’t) they shrug it off as just another woman thing. Allowing the reader to empathize makes the story more powerful.
Of course, assuming that all the readers of the article are male is sexist, and they should have talked about what the girl went through too, but it’s understandable if she wasn’t talking to the press about it.
uhh, dude, there’s nothing creepy or wrong with an angry, grieving father who wants justice over his daughter’s rape. It’s his own daughter, for cryin out loud, and she was GANG-RAPED.
methink someone’s reading into his statement a little too much.
Above commenters: it’s not about what he says or how he feels. Regardless of whether he feels that way, the newspaper is portraying the rape as a crime against him.
Hey DFP,
There isn’t anything wrong with the father being angry or wanting “justice.” What’s weird is the way the article totally focuses on him and not his daughter. Never once does it say SHE asked her dad to go and talk to the paper, or that SHE wants justice, or anything really about her thoughts on the whole thing.
@ Ashley: very true, the article mentions nothing about the daughter’s feelings about the whole situation.
That definitely sounds like a Jean-Claude Van Damme movie, with cameos from Steven Seagal and Christopher Lambert.
Since the man said “his daughter was severely traumatized after the rape,” and she “doesn’t want to talk about being attacked”, I think that’s why the article didn’t focus on her as much.
I guess this is what’s unclear in your post: are you saying that the father feels this way and that’s creepy, or that the article is slanted to make it look as though he feels this way?
I really don’t think that the problem here is the father. He didn’t write the article, he just gave the interview. There’s only so much control he has over the end product.
So it seems like people’s problem is that the article focuses too much on the father, and not the daughter? I don’t think there’s a need to be upset about that. It may be the girl’s choice, and I think we should all keep that in mind. Oh, actually it does mention that later in the article: “The father said his daughter was severely traumatized after the rape. He said she has recently been in better spirits and doesn’t want to talk about being attacked.”
So, it did talk about how the daughter feels. Yes, it’s through the words of her father, because she doesn’t want to talk about it to the papers, and we should respect that.
Also, I think the article focuses more on the father because he does not live in Jacksonville, but traveled there specifically to help his daughter and find justice. There’s more about him because he is willing to talk about his experiences, and his daughter prefers not to talk about hers.
Really, the more I read this, the LESS creepy I find it. I mean, look at his quote: “I’m not going to have someone victimized and there not be someone who pays a price.” It seems to me that it’s NOT just about his daughter, his “property”, but just plain the fact that SOMEONE was victimized. He can’t stand for injustice in the broadest sense of the term. (Yes, people are victimized all the time that he doesn’t help, but obviously he doesn’t know of those cases first-hand.)
This is an admirable act for any person to do for another human being. I really don’t think this is just about “his property.” It’s about helping someone he loves. Shouldn’t people do that more often? Should we bash his compassion because it fits into the usual patriarchal role? That’s not very fair.
Mnemosyne,
Yeah, I was vague because I’m not sure. I have no idea whether the dad had a great talk with his daughter and, at her urging, decided to go to the paper. Or if it was his idea and then he asked her whether it was okay for him to go to the paper. Or if he just decided to seek Jean-Claude Van Damme revenge all on his own. The part where the article notes that she “doesn’t want to talk about being attacked” makes me think that the two may not be communicating about her needs very much. Also that she might not want a newspaper story about the attack. But who knows? Maybe he was just protecting her from an interview with the paper, even though she did want him talking to them. Maybe he spent most of the interview talking about her feelings, and the reporter is the one who focused everything on him.
It could be that the creepiness comes from him, the paper, or a combo.
I just know end product=creepy.
Yeah, overreaction much? If you read the full article, you would actually understand why the focus is mostly on the father — since it seems she wasn’t included in the interview because she didn’t want to.
I sometimes think some of y’all look for creepiness and crap where there is none.
Oh noez! I’m being too sensitive! I worry about such trivial things! I’m overreacting!
I’ve never heard anyone say such things about feminists.
I was talking about you, mainly, not feminists in general. But okay!
This is not creepy. A HUGE overreaction. The father was obviously torn apart and I think whoever wrote the article did a good job getting that across. The headline is a bit weird, but other than that, I see no problem whatsoever.
It might be that the writers failing to draw a distinction between her not wanting to talk and her not wanting to talk to them. I’m with you on the article though; its focus on him the wronged party does strike me as a little creepy. However, I think it’s most likely their creepiness, not his.
I think the article is a great illustration of the way popular narratives work to maintain sexist framing of female suffering.
The daughter being raped IS cast as a wrong against the father. Whether it was him or the newspaper or both – the article shows how easy it is (and how familiar) to portray a wrong against a woman as a crime against male proprietary rights. I find it creepy because it’s so familiar. It’s not about blaming the father, necessarily.
But especially the first line, the way it calls up all these familiar stories (in film and books) in which women’s suffering is a plot device for male character development or male action, is creepy and sensationalistic.
Male property rights? If it were my daughter, I’d be doing the same damn thing. I guess then the newspaper would make me look like the hysterical mother. To me, this is completely different than a purity ball.
thats definitely VERY true. I’d be interested in how the media have portrayed angry mothers of rape victims in other cases.
I agree it is creepy.
Here is why.
When I was in the military, and we had sexual assault awareness training, a lot of the guys said that if it ever happened to their sister, they would severely beat or kill his assailant. That would make them feel better.
Which is why it is such a SELFISH reaction to sexual assault. They would feel better about themselves as brothers if they beat the guy to a pulp. They never said things like, I would be there for her and listen to her, or I would try to encourage her to go into therapy, etc. etc. It was all about how to make themselves feel better.
This meme gets repeated over and over in movies. Most movies with a rape in them, where there is a couple, involve some male connected with the female seeking revenge, and the female as a silent, traumatized (in those damn Charles Bronson movies his daughter STOPPED TALKING and went crazy after being raped) and completely lacking in agency. (A good exception to this rule is Rob Roy, won’t say how for those who may not have watched it.)
If I were raped, I wouldn’t want my dad, or my brothers, or my husband to beat the guy up. Maybe I would want to beat the guy up.
I’ve had friends who were the victims of child abuse. Hearing about what happened to them causes me pain, because I love them. Part of me wants to hurt the people that did these awful things to them. But the better part of me realizes that THEY were abused, not me, so even if telling off their abuser would make me feel better, my energy is better focused on taking care of them, and helping them deal with it in the manner that they choose.
I don’t know. I would assume most parents would have a strong reaction to their 15-year-old daughter being raped. Or really, any age.
I’ll agree that the first line of the article is a little creepy and out-there, but that’s the work of the journalist, not the father. Yeah, the article focuses on the father. But how many articles have been written about this case already? Maybe they’ve gotten everything they could from the victim (it did say she didn’t want to talk about it anymore) or other party goers, and needed a new angle so they talked to the father. Maybe they wanted to put a human edge on and get sympathy from other parents in the community (like Rachel said in comment #4).
I don’t have kids. I have a dog, and I know how angry I’d feel and how badly I’d want revenge/justice if anyone did anything to hurt her, so I can only imagine it’s a few zillion times worse if it’s your child. If you hurt someone, you also by extension hurt anyone that loves them. Especially if said victim is still a child, harming them will also cause incredible pain for their parents. I remember how badly it hurt my parents to see me in pain for being made fun of at school, I can’t imagine how much worse it would have been if something had happened to me physically. I’m going with the notion that every parent wants to protect their child (no matter what age and gender – my parents were just as upset by my brother being outcast at school) and it kills them when they can’t. On top of hurting because their baby is in pain, they might actually feel guilt, like it was somehow their fault they weren’t there to stop it.
So I don’t agree that it’s sexism, just a visceral parental reaction. The girl’s mother probably feels the same way.
Well, if this wasn’t a stretch, then you wouldn’t have had that response. Not all “feminist” analysis is good analysis, afterall.
If he hadn’t come gone down there he would be held up as another dead-beat dad who does not take any care or responsibility for his child after the divorce.
Either way, from a*feminist* analysis, he loses…
We can all agree that when sexual assault happens, it affects everyone connected to the victim – boyfriend, brother, sister, mom, dad, etc. This story is focusing on that aspect of it, in this case the father.
I don’t think Ashley was passing judgment on the father’s reaction – just saying that we might sometimes focus too much on the male revenge aspect (because that’s the “sexy” narrative) rather than just try to help the female victim.
The slant of the article definitely leaves much to be desired, but it may well be that the dad is actually an okay guy. I did appreciate this part:
The father said his daughter told him she had mixed drinks and beer while at the party. He said he doesn’t condone her underage drinking but doesn’t blame her for what happened afterward.
“She had no clue what was coming, what the affect would be on her,” the father said.
He’s making the point that drunk does not mean “asking for it” or “consenting to it” or “deserving it”. Seems obvious, of course, but we’re all aware of how many people don’t get that.
Disliking poor, illogical arguments isn’t anti-feminist.
Other than the father, who else should the newspaper interview? I don’t think anyone think it’s a good idea for a 15 year old gang rape victim to give interviews.
This post seems to be another example of shoehorning a story to fit an agenda.
“the newspaper is portraying the rape as a crime against him”
Reading the blockquotes in Ashley’s writeup certainly gives that impression, but reading the actual article does not.
ripley, I think it’s more like a wrong against a woman is a crime against all people who care. There are plenty of people I love and care about who are NOT my property and could in no way be construed as such (as I myself am a young woman). And yet, if someone hurt them, I would be raving mad… and if I told someone “You mess with my friend, you mess with ME,” nobody would be able to be talking about “male proprietary rights.”
(Although you’re totally right that the first line is sensationalist, I’m with you on that one!)
I think Liza puts it well. Parents don’t want their kids hurt. And that doesn’t always have to be in the context of patriarchy.
wow, good point. I’ve never thought of it that way. Yeah, it is pretty lame how female victims of rape are like, portrayed as silent, weak women and that they need a man to get revenge and justice for it.
Ah, illogical. Yes. I am also irrational, hysterical, and angry.
If you’ll excuse me, I’m off to have an abortion for fun and falsely accuse someone of rape.
Actually, you’d be surprised. I’ve seen in my own research that parents are the most likely to downplay, disregard, or blame their children for sexual assault. But I would also say that this overreaction by the father wouldn’t be seen as something positive, either.
I’m currently doing a study on the positive and negative reactions by social support sources (family, friends, doctors, etc.) to disclosure of sexual assault. Using Ullman’s (2000) Social Reactions Questionnaire, I would code this father’s reaction as an egocentric response. Overall, egocentric responses such as these are viewed as negative reactions by survivors of sexual assault.
Most women, when they disclose and receive egocentric responses, feel the need to comfort and soothe those they have turned to for support. Instead of receiving support, they have to give support. Often they regret doing so because they lose control over further disclosing of the assault. Just like in this article, because the father is so affronted by the sexual assault committed against his daughter, he’s the one now spreading the word, telling the media, getting the police involved, and spilling her story. This might be what she wants, but it also might not. We don’t know from the story, but I get very uncomfortable when power and agency of when and who to tell about sexual assault is taken from survivors.
It is true that some survivors do appreciate what is often coded as “egocentric” because it make them feel positive that someone is very upset on their behalf. But again, the majority of survivors who disclose view egocentric responses from social support sources negatively.
Ashley, as one feminist to another? Stop the bullshit about how if anyone dares to suggest you are the eensiest bit wrong, they are SILENCING you and how DARE they say you OVERREACTED to this VERY IMPORTANT THING.
Passive-aggressive sarcasm is really not an integral and mandatory part of feminism. Nor is your apparent view that, as a feminist, it is impossible for you to be mistaken.
oh yay defensiveness. i’m with the people who see no issue here. haven’t we all learned that reporters spin things any way they see fit? i’m with becca. anyone who fucks with my friends and family is fucking with me. and i’m female. i’ve felt that way for as long as i can remember, having to call out people who were shit-talking my best friend in school. the article may be poorly conceived, but there is no reason to believe the father sees her as property. it’s called being PROTECTIVE, not POSSESSIVE. i am protective of my younger brother, even though he’s got a foot and about 100 pounds on me and we’re both adults. if you love someone and are a passionate person, this reaction is NATURAL.
Most women, when they disclose and receive egocentric responses, feel the need to comfort and soothe those they have turned to for support. Instead of receiving support, they have to give support. Often they regret doing so because they lose control over further disclosing of the assault.
You know, I have not experienced sexual assault, but I was in an abusive relationship for several years and I can definitely relate. I don’t know if it is exactly the same. But I especially do not like telling people who knew him back then and liked his company – people have gotten very angry on my behalf and I’m sitting there and I have just talked about what was hands down the worst experience of my life, and I never know how to react to the anger. I understand where it is coming from – but I already have to deal with my own anger, as well as with my sadness and guilt. Why should I have to deal with someone else’s anger?
Because it is sometimes difficult to discern tone on the internet, please read the following in a kind voice–not an angry or sarcastic one:
Ashley, just because some disagrees with you doesn’t always mean they are stereotyping you as some kind of Limbaugh-esque feminazi. I don’t know this person or their history here, but challenging the logical basis of an argument is, in my opinion, a valid talking point in any debate. It’s irritating to have your argument dismissed as illogical, but just because we’re feminists doesn’t always mean our points are automatically above dissection.
I agree that the article has some parts (especially the first line) that are a bit creepy, and I do agree that it would be good for society as a whole to focus on the woman as victim, not the male relatives. However, I don’t think that there is anything wrong with what the father is saying here. As a parent, I believe he is also entitled to his grief. There is nothing inherently selfish about admitting that you, as a parent are also experiencing pain and grief and a desire for justice.
When my son was seriously injured it was very hard on me. Parents want to protect their kids from suffering, and the feelings parents have when they (feel like) they have failed to protect their child (male or female) are very real. It was obviously very hard for my son to go through the experience of being seriously injured and I certainly would not want to diminish his experience or claim my pain was “greater” because I’m sure it wasn’t. But, that said, it didn’t make my grief and pain any less real or valid. When kids hurt, parents hurt. They just do.
hmm, are all comments moderated here? i don’t think i said anything offensive…and agreed, mythago.
I’m not sure there’s necessarily sufficient reason to go off on this particular article or the man featured in it, but I do think there’s a good discussion to be had about the issue Ismone brought up. The language of that quote (“He once sought blood,” “seeking revenge,” “message of intolerance,” “someone who pays the price”) totally evokes cowboy-movie-type images of vigilante justice and family-honor bullshit. It’s an image that’s held very dear in our culture, and it’s easy to look at that behavior from a man with regard to his family as simply protective and loving, and that may be the case here. But particularly when it’s contrasted with the victimized woman just fading silently into the background — and again, in this case, there may be any number of legitimate reasons for that — it reinforces a power dynamic where the real action is between the men and the significance of the woman’s experience is in what it means for the men in her life. I don’t think it’s at all a safe assumption, when a guy talks about what he’d do to anyone who “messed with” his sister or daughter to think that it’s all healthy, nonsexist familial devotion talking, and that societal expectations of masculine “honor” and male dominion over families has nothing to do with it. Especially since whether or not the woman consented to the hypothetical “messing” is often considered irrelevent.
As a matter of fact, this may seem like an odd association, but it reminds me a little of when male anti-choicers say they want to see the doctors — assumed to be male, because duh, they’re doctors — who provide abortions be punished rather than the women themselves. It’s similar in that it takes a situation that’s really about a woman’s agency over her body and completely reverts it to interactions between men — “good” men who know how to treat a lady and “bad” men who don’t.
Exactly, Mythago.
Ashley and Renee seem to specialize in a brand of blogging that starts with an average news story, identifies one peculiar aspect, throws in a dozen feminist buzzwords, and calls it a day. If anyone dares to question their conclusions, they’re are branded anti-feminists. It’s no surprise that their posts over the past couple of weeks have drawn the most dissent. Even on a feminist blog, you have to make coherent arguments to get people to agree with you.
Thank you ellestar.
Egocentric response. I’ll have to remember that.
Mythago, my aggression is not at all passive. It’s totally upfront.
To my mind, it’s not appropriate, in a feminist space, to let people get away with typical anti-feminist ways of silencing without a response. Their comments aren’t being blocked and they aren’t being censored—they are being challenged, as is appropriate.
There are ways to disagree with what I’ve said without calling me “irrational” or some other sexist code word. You’ll notice that plenty of people have disagreed respectfully and I haven’t said anything negative about their comments.
And sarcasm might not be integral to feminism, but it is integral to fun.
Just want to apologize for my crankiness today. ‘Tis not been a good day. I should learn to stay off the interwebs when I’m in a cranky mood.
Ya know, it’s possible to call someone “irrational” simply because you think his or her position is contrary to reason. Unless a particular commenter has a reputation for trolling feminist blogs, I’d give’em the benefit of the doubt.
My dad and his friends had to hold down one of their friends when he found out his teenage daughter had been raped by several other teenage boys she thought were her friends. This man had a gun in his home and he wanted to go and kill them all.
I don’t remember thinking less of him for it. People say/attempt things in the heat of the moment that may not reflect their best judgment. All my sympathies were with his daughter.
After reading the article I, too, think the girl just doesn’t really want to speak about it. And since she’s confessed about her drinking and her father saw the bruises it seems like they have good relationship and she trusts him. Of course it might still have a different reason but then it’s just an article.
Also, I think this will shake up some people which is a very good thing considering how often rape is still dismissed and blamed on the victim etc. Finally what’s making me angry is all this “we don’t know anything yet and it’s sooooo difficult” stuff by the police. The girl was bruised and (as it sounds) immediately taken to the police station where they took samples of foreign DNA. So why don’t they just go to court and get an ok to test all males from the party? There were somewhere between 20 and 40 people and probably half of them girls. I’m no friend of mass testing people but what the hell is preventing it here???
SoE, you are assuming her attackers were also at the party.
(post)
(commenters disagree)
(“OMG, you hate feminists!”)
One of my strongest wishes for my daughters is that they become feminists. I list it right under ‘that they don’t become Republicans’ and ‘that they don’t get raped in college’. I just hope they don’t become the kind of feminist that responds to discussions in this way because if they do, Thanksgiving dinner will be kind of tiresome at our house.
Disagreement =/= misogyny.
People disagreeing with you is not sexist, or silencing, or anti-feminist – it’s life. Do you want to be treated like a fully functioning and equal human being or like a delicate flower?
As a poster here you have a louder voice than commenters. The idea that you are being “silenced” because people disagree is absurd. Unless someone is deleting your posts then you aren’t being silenced.
The first person to call you irrational was…wait for it…you!
It’s a perfectly fine term, but even if you think it is horribly sexist *you* were the one who used it.
This isn’t about anti-feminism or silencing. It’s about people thinking you wrote a sucky nonsensical post. It happens.
Ellestar, this is a really good point, and it’s the same thing I learned in basic rape crisis volunteer training (though you have a lot more formal science behind it). Basically, survivors do not experience it as a positive thing when the people they disclose to “take things into their own hands” or try to tell the survivor what to do. That response takes control away from the survivor, when what they need for their recovery is to gain back some sense of personal agency after having all control taken away.
Various other commenters, I actually give the father the benefit of the doubt because I’ve had personal experiences with the way media can skew what you say. And even if he did act in a way that was not helpful to his daughter, I fully understand his response, on an emotional level. My concern, as I’ve stated several times now, was with the final product of the article.
See, I think that reaction is fair enough. If this man is behaving the egocentric manner described above (and it’s pretty much impossible to tell but I certainly think the article has been done poorly) then that’s a whole ‘nother kettle of fish.
That’s my 2c :)
Yea, I do because most of the time people are not raped by some stranger in the dark. Usually family members, friends or acquaintances are the perps. But they don’t even know whether they have given any DNA samples. If even the fellow partypeople had nothing to do with it, how are they going to exclude those samples from the rest found on the girl?
You know, if I were unable to prevent my rape and unable to avenge it myself (because, no, I’m not a pacifist and, yes, I would do my utmost to kill someone who raped me), I’d be content if my community got angry and did the deed for me. I think the real feminist story here is in the comments. Ladies, why is it our responsibility to manage their anger? I propose a deal, I won’t let anyone “manage” my grief or anger if I’m assaulted, and I won’t manage their homocidal rage either. As equals we can commisserate.
Maybe you’re seeing something I’m not, or you’re reading too far into it, but all I see is an angry father who wants justice for his daughter. I’d feel the same way if it had been my own daughter. I’d do everything in my power to find her attackers and see that justice is carried out.
But what justice does his DAUGHTER want? Not blaming it on this particular guy, but this is the meme we here over and over—she was raped, and some other HE wants the rapist dead.
The SHE in the story doesn’t ask him to kill/harm the rapist. The SHE in the story doesn’t have a voice. It is all about male anger in the face of harm to a female, and as ellestar and Ashley are pointing out, this reaction IS BAD FOR THE SURVIVOR.
If someone does something bad to me, it is about me. It is not all about how my husband, brothers, and father feel about it, regardless of what that bad thing is. And although I will listen to/validate their feelings, their feeling should not take center stage.
This article places the father’s feelings center stage, and while there is nothing wrong at looking at sexual assault from all sides, THIS IS THE SIDE WE ALWAYS HEAR ABOUT.
Did anyone doubt, before this article, that some men wanted to harm or even kill those who raped their daughters? No?
Do you think our culture has any equally persistent memes about what the SURVIVOR HERSELF WANTS TO HAPPEN? How many movies have you seen about that? What dominant narratives are there about rape victims? In my experience, the answer is there are NO dominant memes that are true to women’s experience. If you want to learn about that, you have to read up about it, because our culture doesn’t talk (much) about how some women find sex to be a revictimization, about how they have to get used to the idea that they are not as capable of defending themselves as they thought, about how some women reclaim their sexuality by choosing to have a number of sex partners until sex, to them, feels like a belonging instead of a violation. What was the last movie or newspaper article you saw talking about a SURVIVOR’S response to trauma.
Geez.
Hmmmm.
Yeah, being angry when something terrible happens to someone you care about…normal. If someone hurt my family, friends or cats, I would want to hurt them. Badly. I wouldn’t actually do it, though.
Also, I’m not sure I’d SAY that when they told me it had happened – it isn’t helpful, as others have said. An angry reaction in the heat of the moment doesn’t mean it is all about them – once the person has calmed down, they may see it differently and be very supportive.
I do question the article, though. It didn’t mention how SHE felt at all (other than saying she didn’t want to talk about it). So yes, I see what people mean in terms of actions done to women being discussed in terms of the effect on men.
E.g. some years ago at a party a guy was being slimy and sleazy towards me, and a male “friend” told him where to get off. No, not just because I had said several times I was not interested in him. He had to add that my boyfriend at the time would be mad and kick his ass. Yeah. Oookaaaaay so if I don’t have a boyfriend I’m fair game? *Sigh*.
Good on the dad for not blaming her for drinking, as others have said. Very refreshing to hear. I agree with those that say dad probably meant well, the article was just badly written.
You’ll notice that plenty of people have disagreed respectfully and I haven’t said anything negative about their comments.
Well, I noticed. And I don’t know why people think they can disagree disrespectfully and not get called out on it. Honestly, I shouldn’t be surprised at the way the guest bloggers here are being treated (seeing as the same thing happened last summer) but I still am.
Thank you Ismone.
This topic is especially salient for me today because of an interview I analyzed yesterday.
For all of you who promise violence and/or retribution for loved ones who disclose sexual assault to you:
Just yesterday I read an interview where a woman kept her assault experience all to herself for nearly a decade (only recently telling a trusted friend). She refused to tell her family, to seek comfort in them, because she was afraid they would hunt down her attacker (known to all of them) and kill or severely hurt him. Then it would have been her fault (in her own mind) that her family members were in jail. She still has not told them to this day and her family remains confused why she leaves the house when they invite her rapist over for dinner.
So for all of you promising some swift reaction against rapists of those you care for, please realize that you may be preventing those people you care for from turning to you for support.
Anger on behalf of those you love when they get hurt is normal. However, when someone turns to you for support, it’s not about your anger or sadness, it’s about supporting and helping survivors cope in the best ways for them. Absolutely, you should encourage going to the police, getting therapy, seeking tangible aid for the survivor, but it all should be on the survivor’s terms and what they’re ready for and willing to do. They’ve had power and agency taken from them; support sources need to help them get that back in their lives again.
The actions in the above article may be what the survivor wants from her father. It’s impossible to tell from the article because she was assigned the passive role of “victim” and has no voice. This is troubling to me.
Longtime lurker here – this is the first time I’ve been annoyed enough at the poster to speak up.
First of all, I don’t see anything wrong with the article Ashley wrote about (except for the overly-dramatic first sentence). As a woman who was sexually assaulted when I was a teenager, I had no problem with my parents being angry and wanting justice. Especially because wanting justice is not antithetical to being supportive to me. When someone hurts someone you love – especially your child – you likely will be very angry and want justice. I don’t see anything wrong with that as long as they are supportive to the survivor and honor the survivor’s wishes (which the father seems to be, considering he didn’t force her to speak to the paper when she didn’t want to).
I respect there are other views on this issue, and that is one of my favorite things about this site – being able to read other people’s views and learn from them, getting other perspectives, self-growth – all of that. However, Ashley, you seriously need to be able to take criticism without being overly defensive and hiding behind feminist buzzwords. You are not a victim because people disagree with you. By being cruelly sarcastic (not fun sarcasm, like you suggest), you shut down meaningful discussion. If anyone is being anti-feminist, I think it is you since you seem to be saying that you are above reproach and anyone who disagrees with you is anti-feminist. I thought feminism included honoring other people’s voices, not ridiculing them like you are.
To Feministe – I don’t think I will keep reading this blog if posters are allowed to berate commenters and shut down meaningful discussion by accusing anyone who disagrees as anti-feminist. This is the first post/thread I’ve seen like this and I really hope it doesn’t continue. I’m not trying to be rude or anything – I just would like to spend time in blogs/comment threads that actually are open spaces for feminists to discuss views. And yes, posters are viewed differently as commenters, since posters seem to be endorsed by Feministe since they are writing for this blog.
I’ve enjoyed reading more of the followup discussion by commenters – it’s shined a light onto some of the real issues here. There is a problem with how we treat and listen to survivors of rape.
Maybe I, as well as some other people, was set off by the title of the post – “More Fathers Owning Daughters” – and the comparison to purity balls. This was a gross oversimplification of the problems with the article. I definitely think that’s why I responded negatively to the post. I’m glad there are commenters that discussed the real issues, which are a bit more complex than “fathers owning daughters.” I think I was upset by the post because I really did feel that the tone of the article (set by the title and the comparison to purity balls) WAS “irrational” (as in, nonsensical or just not very helpful).
Hopefully that explains some things that have been going on in this thread. Thanks again to the commenters who explained things in-depth, even if it took a few tries :-)
ellestar,
That reminds me. I watched a documentary about priests who sexually assaulted their parishoners. One girl, who was 10 when the molestation started, didn’t tell her parents for years. She was well into adulthood (and other abuse victims were coming out, and pointing the figure at her abuser) before she came forward. She had, from the film I saw, a very good and loving and open relationship with both parents.
Her father wanted to know why she had been able to tell him about the abuse (and it was pretty clear from the film that he blamed himself, not her, for her decision not to tell.) She told him that it was because he had once told her and her siblings that if anyone ever raped/molested them, he would kill that person. She told him that the reason she never told is because she did not want the priest dead and she did not want her father in prison. The father broke down in tears recounting this story. He felt so guilty that he had put his 10-year-old daughter in a position where she felt that she had to hold back the story of her abuse to protect HIM.
I really don’t think Ashley is being oversensitive. I do think it is perfectly okay to point out that certain words are loaded, and it is better not to use them. (Like the whole articulate thing?)
I think that the point, which, IMO, Ashley has made well both about comments having to do with illogic/overreaction and the article is that we should be critical of dominant memes in the culture.
Dominant meme: Women who are feminists are illogical and overreact to imagined slights.
What many of us think: The little things add up and are symptoms of a greater problem, which is that women’s anger, no matter how rational, is not treated with respect.
Dominant meme: The response to rape is for male protector to be angry and harm rapist.
What many of us think: Hey, why are all the articles all about the male protector? Even though the father in this case is a good person, and lots of people including Ashley have admitted that it sounds like he is a really good person, and that by supporting his daughter he is doing some good–why, when a crime like this happens, don’t we have articles by rape crisis counselors telling people what the survivor is going through? Why is (usually) she invisible? Wouldn’t it be a good thing if we understood and talked about HER? So that she and those like her could get the support they need?
You’ve said that in the comments, but not in the post. In the post, you compared him to the fathers who take their daughters to purity balls. Unless you’re trying to say that the media has completely misunderstood purity balls and all the creepiness of them is purely media-created?
Mnemosyne– I didn’t compare the father’s actions to purity balls. I compared the narrative being presented by the article to purity balls (i.e. that women’s bodies belong to their fathers). The first comment was right on point–I actually studied Genesis this year, and the similarity to that old story (repeated throughout our culture ad nauseum) was what struck me and led me to write on the subject.
Which feminists? Whose views? And what constitutes “openness?” If someone calling themself a “feminist” started making racist comments here, am I obligated to let that go without a challenge?
There are a million places where I can hear about how logical and reasonable the dominant narrative is and how everyone else should shut up. I don’t need to create a further space for that. I can just turn on the TV if that’s what I need.
My feelings? If your wire’s get tripped, keep digging until you find out why. Us old farts used to call it consciousness raising.
This story creeps me out too. Here’s this father who lives several states away from his daughter who comes down into her town desiring to take justice into his own hands. He calms down a little and now just wants everyone to know he’s a damn Hero! with his patience and quiet outrage.
Yeah, sure. That’s why he just has no qualms SPEAKING FOR his daughter, right? That’s why he has no qualms about further publicizing her gang rape, right? Yeah, he’s concerned about her for sure. Or not. Especially with this quote:
“You couldn’t have prayed and gotten a bigger blessing as to how she is today after such a horrible event,” the father said.”
No shit Sherlock! You couldn’t have prayed and gotten a bigger blessing because I bet dollars to donuts that your daughter doesn’t feel COMFORTABLE discussing how she feels because of your damn vigilante attitude. I know I’d be lying my ass off to you too. Especially if you had decided to mount a damn justice campaign for me.
I have to agree that the post was not clear. I actually want to thank Ismone and ellestar for sharing their experiences and making the connections for us!
“Irrational” and “illogical” are definitely trigger words and given their history, are problematic in the context of critiquing / judging a feminist analysis or a woman’s perceptions — but I don’t think we can or should say it is unfair, or out of bounds, to comment that a post is unclear, not well-argued, or did not elaborate where and when it should have, and that more information / clarification is needed. I would hold any blogger to those standards. Writing is a skill and I’m guessing that all of us are always evolving and developing as writers…feedback is necessary to that process, particularly if the writing is in a public domain.
She’s talking about how the article creeps her out, not the father:
Second, I think it’s great that this girl’s father is supportive of her and takes sexual assault seriously. But something about the way the article totally focuses on his emotions, his thoughts, his reactions… It’s as if there has been a crime against this guy and his property, not another person.
I don’t understand why Ashley is such a lightning rod for posting this.
I don’t find the article creepy at all. The post is what is creepy. The author is cynically, and hatefully, characterizing a father’s reaction to the rape of his daughter as a pathological obsession over damaged property. The title “More Fathers Owning Daughters” says it all.
There’s the defensive, grudging acknowledgment that maybe he’s OK because he “takes sexual assault seriously” But the last few sentences makes it clear that the author, using her razor-sharp “feminist” perspective, sees what normal people can’t. Normal people might take this at face value, and understand this as a parent’s outrage over what happened to their child. But no, her “feminist” radar goes off, because deep-down inside, she knows in her hate-filled gut that when a father gets angry about what happens to his daughter, and seeks justice, it’s likely because he’s motivated by some sick pathology that is unique to fathers.
I put “feminist” in quotes because I don’t associate simple bigotry like this with most feminists.
[...] they are ‘overreacting’ to something that’s ‘not a big deal.’ But this time it’s [...]
Margalis (and a few others). Geez! You guys are totally overreacting! What? Someone wrote a blog post you don’t like and you have to go all nuts? Calm down!
Also, to answer your question: delicate flower. And I want someone to feed me grapes.
Fair enough, though I think there are always ways to do that without using trigger memes. I mean, how hard is it to avoid, what? Six words? I think I was respectful of commenters like, for instance, Rachel and Liza, who disagreed but gave an explanation for their disagreement and didn’t call any names or make ad hominem attacks.
I also think it’s important to note that a lot of people didn’t understand my point because they lack information that I’ve gained over the course of a long-ass time working in the sexual assault field (some of which Ellestar elaborated on, all sciencey-like). That doesn’t make my point illogical–it just makes it a little esoteric.
Many thanks to those who have been supportive. It is much appreciated.
And by the way:
This is the truest bit of feminist/life wisdom I ever did see. Always gotta trust yourself. The world sure isn’t gonna do it for you.
I think I’m about tuckered out now.
Ashley,
“I also think it’s important to note that a lot of people didn’t understand my point because they lack information that I’ve gained…”
You didn’t even try in the post to bring any perspective into it. You didn’t discuss any insights you’ve gained from your experiences, and how they might shed some light on what the article reports. You were too busy rushing to the hateful punchline you had in your mind from the beginning.
“That doesn’t make my point illogical–it just makes it a little esoteric.”
You are giving yourself way too much credit here. You didn’t make any point at all, much less an esoteric one. You talked about how this made you feel “creepy” as yet another story of a man and his “property.”
You – not the article author – are responsible for the “daughters as property” cast. You cast it as such because you can’t tolerate a simple story about a man who is outraged about what happened to someone he loves. You can’t tolerate an article that reports this man’s experience as worthy of note, as worthy of sympathy, as, just possibly, something noble. You can’t let that stand unquestioned, because it is incongruent with your hateful view that a father’s love for his daughter is necessarily corrupt – hence the disgusting “purity ball” reference.
“My feelings? If your wire’s get tripped, keep digging until you find out why. Us old farts used to call it consciousness raising.”
Yes, you should keep digging, and raise your consciousness – about your own insides. Here’s how: there are plenty of stories of mother’s “protecting their property” There’s even a nice, standard narrative about it. Placid, peaceful women takes on the world because her children are threatened, or hurt. A deep gender narrative that we even impose on animal behavior. Mother bear and her cubs etc. Surely a deep narrative like that that just begs for some esoteric, elegant deconstruction.
“They thought she was weak, but they found out different when they went after her kids…” You’d have no trouble finding articles, stories and movies like that to work on.
But you’d never write a cynical post about something like that. It wouldn’t feel creepy because you credit mothers with the simple, human bond of love for their children, and you’d likely empathize with their reaction. You don’t credit fathers with that same humanity.
I cut this from a basic info sheet for friends and family members who have recently had a survivor of sexual assault disclose to them… Seemed like it might be useful to the discussion.
Top 10 Do’s in Helping a Survivor of Sexual Assault
1. Be Supportive
There are many ways to be supportive of an individual who discloses to you that they were sexually assaulted. The first step in supporting the survivor is to BELIEVE them. Then review their options (medical, legal, and emotional) and support their decisions. Remember that the violence that occurred took away the survivor’s power and control. It is highly important for the survivor to be allowed to be in control and make his or her own decisions (even if you do not like the decision he or she makes). Supporting the wishes of the survivor will help him or her in beginning to heal from the assault.
2. Communicate
Communicating the following messages with the survivor can increase their openness in disclosing to others in the future.
“I believe you.”
“I am sorry that it happened to you.”
“You did what you needed to survive.”
“It’s not your fault.”
“Help is available.”
3. Listen
As a friend or family member, it is important that you LISTEN to what the survivor tells you. Sometimes assault victims need to talk about the attack. Be non-judgmental and non-blaming. You weren’t there; the survivor is the only one who knows what it was like. Let them tell you what they want, when they want. It is more important to listen than to talk or give advice.
4. Be Patient
Be aware that the recovery from sexual assault can be slow and that there is not a set period of time for healing. Let the survivor proceed at his or her own pace and continue to be available for support throughout the process.
5. Be Sensitive
Let the person know that you do not subscribe to any of the common myths about sexual assault. Understand that the person has suffered extreme humiliation. Let them know that you do not see them as defiled or immoral.
6. Allow For Space
Ask the survivor how he or she wants to be treated, especially when doing anything that may violate his or her personal space. Even if you mean well and want to offer comfort, remember that the person who assaulted the survivor took away his/her control over her/his body. He or she may not want to be touched or accompanied. Ask for permission before touching or holding the survivor. Comments like these can behelpful “I want to offer comfort, could I do anything that would be comforting to you?” or “I’d like to give you a hug, but I don’t know if this would be ok with you or not.”
7. Know the Options
Assist the survivor in getting the help her or she wants and needs. This may mean providing phone numbers, transportation, information, etc. Informing the survivor of their options can be critical. If you do not know about the options available you can seek assistance from a counselor or advocate at the Oasis Program or The Center Against Sexual Assault.
8. Be Non-Judgmental
The manner in which you respond can increase or decrease the likelihood that the survivor will continue to seek needed assistance. Geeting a judgmental response often decreases one’s desire to reach out to others and may hamper the survivors healing from the assault. Your job as a concerned other is not to judge, or say what you would have done differently, but to be supportive and appropriately attentive to the individual.
9. Help in Gaining Safety
Asking the survivor questions like “what would help you feel more safe?” can reveal options for increasing safety. The survivor may want you to stay the night, stand outside the door when using a bathroom, accompany them to the hospital, medical facility, or counseling office, help them make a report to police, or to screen calls.
10. Self-Care and Knowledge
Educate yourself about sexual assault and unwanted sexual contact. Having friends and family who know about sexual assault can be very useful to the survivor. It is important, though, to remind yourself that you do not know everything about the survivor’s experience. However dispelling any myths that you have about sexual assault, learning about what to expect during the healing process, and increasing your understanding of this issue in general can be useful to you as well as the survivor.
Seek support for yourself. Become aware of your feelings about the trauma and the stress of supporting your loved one. It is best to avoid communicating your biases and negative emotions to the survivor. However, it may become important for you to speak with someone about how you are feeling. This can be particularly important if your loved one’s assault is triggering your own experiences of trauma. The staffs of the Oasis Program and the Southern Arizona Center Against Sexual Assault are available to speak with you about your experiences in the role of a support person as well as your experiences of being a survivor.
Top 10 Don’ts in Helping a Survivor of Sexual Assault
1. Don’t Blame
Do not place blame on the victim. Perpetrators of these crimes are the only ones to blame for their actions. There is no excuse for rape. If someone does not want to have sex, this is enough. There is never an excuse for force or coercion. This is true even if: the survivor has had sex with that person before, is in a committed relationship with the perpetrator, has been drinking or using drugs, has flirted with the perpetrator, or did not fight back. It does not matter what the person was wearing or doing – if they did not give consent it is assault. Don’t ask why the survivor didn’t scream or fight. Don’t ask if he or she did anything to “lead him/her on.” Also, if the assault involved alcohol or drugs, don’t question why her or she drank or criticize him or her for not watching her or his drink “carefully enough.” The assailant made a choice to commit an assault; he or she could have chosen otherwise. Remember attackers are responsible for their actions; rape is never the fault of the victim.
2. Don’t Make Assumptions
This is a good general rule. Allow the person to tell you what happened, what they want, how they are feeling, or what they need. Do not assume that you can imagine this person’s experience. Even if you have survived similar trauma, it is likely that your experience is less similar than you assume. Also don’t assume that what was helpful for you will be helpful for them. Ask the survivor.
3. Don’t Give Advice or Tell Him/Her What to Do
Instead, review options with the survivor and then support their decisions. Allow them to take control over their own life, even if you believe you would do something differently or if you believe they may regret their decision. Don’t press the survivor to report the incident to the police. Don’t insist that he or she talk to someone about it. Doing nothing is a valid option and needs to be supported.
4. Don’t Make Threats
Don’t make comments against the perpetrator such as “I am going to find him and kill him.” Threatening to take care of the situation only adds to the emotional burden the survivor is already carrying. Illegal retaliation is not an option and threatening harm is not helpful to the survivor. Learn healthier ways of taking care of your own anger. The survivor does not need to feel as though he or she needs to take care of your anger or help you resolve it.
5. Don’t Question or Criticize
Don’t criticize or question the survivor for not telling you sooner about the incident. The very reason for not telling you was most likely fear of your rejection. Honor the survivors timing and thank him or her for disclosing this information to you. This is not the time to inquire about why they hadn’t spoken with you about this before. It does not mean that the person does not trust you or does not care about you.
6. Don’t Gossip
Do not break the survivor’s trust by telling others about the assault without permission. The survivor should have the control over who knows, when, and with whom he or she talks about it.
7. Don’t Be Overprotective
Resist overprotecting the survivor and respect his or her judgment concerning dating, seeing friends, going out, staying in school, etc.
8. Don’t Prevent Talking
Don’t prevent talking about the rape if the survivor wants to. Remember that you can’t be there 24 hours a day to do so, but you can offer options for the survivor to speak with advocates or counselors.
9. Don’t Lose Patience
Comments such as “Why aren’t you over this yet?” or “You constantly talk about this like it is the only event in your life” are not helpful. Remember that the recovery process can be slow and lengthy and will vary with each individual.
10. Don’t Perpetuate Rape Myths
Ashley: “Geez! You guys are totally overreacting! What? Someone wrote a blog post you don’t like and you have to go all nuts? Calm down!”
Are you attempting to silence others by implying that they are mentally ill or too emotional? Hysterical, perhaps?
Given the circumstances, I must say I find that to be terribly bad form.
If you don’t want your posts to be openly discussed and freely critiqued, may I suggest you set forth guidelines beforehand for the comments on your next post? May I further suggest that you simply do not open comments?
SWT: You’re, uh, not too well acquainted with this thing they call “feminist analysis,” are you? I am hard pressed to think of a feminist who hasn’t critiqued the hoary old “mother bear” trope–e.g., it’s the only ‘legitimate’ excuse for female anger, the catalyst that allows women to express anger and aggression and especially violence without getting called bitches for it, because they can’t fight for themselves, only for their children. We’re all familiar with the deep problems underlying the mother bear image. Yes, even Ashley.
akeeyu: She was clearly trying to be sarcastic. It pains me to defend her even this tiny bit, but really.
Akeeyu–
Not sure whether you’re joking, but just in case… It’s irony. A way of pointing out to people that what they are saying is problematic by mirroring it. I would never use those kinds of arguments unless it was tongue-in-cheek.
Totally baffled by the response to this thread from people who call themselves feminists!
Ashley, you’re right, and well done on calling the newspaper out on this!
Ashley, I am absolutely not joking. It seems to me that if you need comments nerfed down, you should request that ahead of time. Oh, and if it’s “irony”, you’re doing it wrong.
(post.)
(Some commenters used tone and language that Ashley took offense to as silencing and using loaded vocabulary and called them out on it.)
(Commenters take offense to being called out.)
(Ashley ironically reflects the tone and language back at offended commenters.)
(Ashley gets called out for silencing and using loaded vocabulary.)
I find this highly ironic.
I wasn’t ‘called out’ on tone and language before, so I am not one of the offended commenters. When I showed up here, Ashley was already calling people anti-feminist and throwing around garbage like this:
“Ah, illogical. Yes. I am also irrational, hysterical, and angry. If you’ll excuse me, I’m off to have an abortion for fun and falsely accuse someone of rape.”
I’m a big fan of irony and satire, but if you don’t do it right, it just falls flat.
I do not know how many different ways I can restate this:
1. Ashley’s original idea may or may not have had merit, but she did not fully explain/flesh out her opinion/theory in the original post, leading to a whole bunch of people saying “What?”
2. Ashley’s response to people saying “Your argument doesn’t make sense” was less than gracious. See above.
3. A bunch of people said “Hi, your response was less than gracious.”
4. Aaaaand suddenly we’re all picking on her.
I can’t believe how far Feministe has fallen.
sophonisba
“SWT: You’re, uh, not too well acquainted with this thing they call “feminist analysis,” are you? I am hard pressed to think of a feminist who hasn’t critiqued the hoary old “mother bear” trope–e.g., it’s the only ‘legitimate’ excuse”
I wasn’t suggesting that feminists haven’t discussed this trope. I wasn’t making any assertions about any feminist other than Ashley.
Why yes, a whole bunch of people are “picking on her”. People are getting seriously angry at her, calling her creepy, calling her irrational. Saying that because they would get angry if it were their family member, or they personally wouldn’t mind their father getting angry that her viewpoint is invalid.
I agree, the original post could have been phrased better. After reading the responses here I agree more, not less. It’s impossible to say whether the father’s reaction was proprietary or not. It’s definitely valid to say that it’s presented as such, and that in the presentation the idea of daddy avenging wrongs upon him via his daughter such actions are glorified.
I am really pleased that her father doesn’t blame her, it’s great. I don’t expect the paper to interview her if she doesn’t want to speak. I’m very uncomfortable with there being an interview at all if the daughter’s not comfortable, which it’s entirely possible she’s not.
The only people here who are refusing to enter reasoned discourse are the ones getting angry at Ashley to the point where they won’t listen to her, won’t even try. This is ridiculous
Someone once said that having a child is like having your heart walk around outside of your body. As a mother I can say that truer words have never been spoken. Parents who love their children have an almost overwhelming protective instinct. That instinct sometimes overrides what is considered logical or acceptable in today’s society. When our children are suffering we react, and we react strongly. Unfortunately the way we react isn’t always what’s best in the long run, or the most productive, but sometimes it is beyond our ability to control.
We aren’t always able take a step back from the situation and handle it like college graduates. In an emotionally charged situation it’s difficult to hit the “pause” button . Instead we handle it like human beings, and humans aren’t perfect. Remember that, deep down, we are still animals.
I’m very sorry that that answer doesn’t suit your ideals, but like a mama lion protecting her cubs, if someone hurts my baby I go for the throat.
Xan,
It seems to me that your comment crytallizes why people got upset about my post in the first place… They felt that I had no empathy for the father in this situation. That’s not the case. I feel really terrible for the guy, and I understand his response (Why does everyone assume I don’t know what parentlove is like? Really, I do.)
I think I made it clear, even in the original post, that my concern was with the way the article focused on the father’s feelings, and effectively erased the survivor from the narrative. This is such a common theme in our culture, and it presented itself again here.
Anyway, as I said, I have a lot of empathy for the father. But the fact that I understand his response doesn’t mean I think it was necessarily the best thing for the survivor, which is really what everyone should focus on and often forgets… What impact do you think an article like this, which heroizes a “revenge” reaction, will have on others’ sensitivity to the needs of survivors?
As for whether it was the best thing for her, I don’t know, because the article didn’t say (which is the whole problem). I think it is possible that he was doing just what she asked, but the article didn’t make that clear and played into our cultural tendency to erase the perspective of survivors from narratives about sexual violence (hell, to erase the perspective of women from all narratives about anything).
I also agree that the father did say some things that I appreciated (I noted that in the original post). Even if my post had been about him and his actions, the fact that he may have done something imperfectly doesn’t mean I think he’s an all-around terrible person… But I didn’t focus on what he did right, wrong, or anywhere in between, because my main concern was with the focus of the article, not with the father.
my gf father always yelling at his daughters no wonder they all have mental problems
I hope that this girl receive justice. I live in Jacksonville. The kids at this party came from wealthy homes families. Bolles is an exclusive private school. It just seems like there might be some “covering up” going on. The guilty boys should have been found by now.