You know who I’ve decided that I absolutely can’t stand? Brian Alexander, the sex advice columnist over at MSNBC. I’m not actively seeking out the guy’s writing, but it seems to keep finding me. Recently, I called him out on being a rape apologist asshole. By comparison, his latest offense is rather minor, but it’s still sexist and obnoxious as hell. This is a question and answer from a column last week:
Q: Do men really care if the woman has an orgasm or not?
A: There is something almost existential about this question, like, “Is there really a merciful God?” or “Will Mick Jagger ever retire?”
I am here to ease your angst, and not just because I’m a man, but because I think it’s true. Not true for all men, of course, but I’d bet most of us do care and, like Boy Scouts, we strive to do our best.
Data from the most comprehensive survey of the nation’s sex life, “The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States,” showed that roughly one-third of women surveyed said they ALWAYS had an orgasm with their male partner. Not sometimes, or most of the time, but always. These numbers are even more impressive when you consider that many women report that due to some physiological or psychological barrier they rarely or never orgasm even if the guy is working like a Spartan. Then realize that the survey’s data was collected nearly a generation ago — before the explosion of porn in every possible form of media made fiery female orgasms the (completely unrealistic) standard, and before giving great oral sex became a datability requirement akin to having a job.
Even if you don’t trust our altruism, consider our egos. Many, many reader letters to this column come from women asking how they can soothe their men’s wounded pride over the women’s trouble reaching orgasm.
We care.
Oh Jesus Christ, where to start?
Here’s a good place: Alexander seems to fundamentally miss the difference between wanting to feel like your sexual partner had an orgasm and actually wanting your sexual partner to enjoy sex and have an orgasm. Oh yes, there is a difference, and Alexander happens to show it. The first state of mind is exemplified in his porn argument — guys want their sexual partners to have orgasms because the women in porn do and apparently guys want to recreate porn in their bedrooms or something — and in his ego argument — men want their sexual partners to have orgasms because it makes them feel better about themselves. You know who these guys are? These are the guys who cause women to fake orgasms. Sure, women shouldn’t do it, and yes it’s bad practice and women are only fucking themselves over in the end. But when they’ve got guys in their beds who seem determined to make them have the orgasm they’re not going to have and then pout if they don’t . . . well I can see where they’re coming from.
The second state of mind is held by the group of straight guys who (at least in this respect) aren’t assholes. They’re the kind who think that sex isn’t just for them, understand that women (should) enjoy it too, and make the effort to ensure that he and his partner are equally satisfied. This is the guy who actually cares, and who I believe was being referred to in the spirit of the original question. This guy is a part of a very large chunk of those straight couples where the woman does have an orgasm every time.
Having to soothe your man’s ego over your inability to reach orgasm isn’t a sign that he cares about your orgasm — it’s a sign that he’s thinking about himself. If she’s having trouble reaching orgasm and isn’t okay with that, his concern ought to be for her, not his ego. And if for whatever reason she’s fine not having an orgasm every time, or has always had difficulty with orgasms and therefore doesn’t believe it to have anything to do with him, chances are she already told him this before writing a fucking letter — and that means that if they guy cares about her, he needs to STFU and stop making her feel bad.
But the thing that pissed me off the most is how Alexander wants us to look at his “roughly one-third” of straight women always have an orgasm statistic and be impressed by it. Clearly, the language he uses around it tells us that he’s saying WOW! One whole third? What a big number — especially when so many women are sexually defective!
Look, when it comes to the differences between male and female orgasm, I haven’t got the answers. I’m no scientist, and scientists seem to lack definitive agreement as well. Do women (by all of this I mean “on average”) really have more “difficulty” reaching orgasm, or do they just take longer? Do they have more “difficulty” orgasming, or do women simply not, as we should know by now, tend to orgasm from intercourse alone? If women actually do have more difficulty, is it because of something biological between the sexes or because women are, say, discouraged from masturbating, more likely to be shamed about their bodies or never told about their clitorises? Do women in fact care less about orgasms, or do they just seem more likely to say that they don’t care very much because it’s what they’ve been taught to expect?
I personally lean more towards the latter answer on all of these questions. But these are simply very strong hunches. I do know that whatever the answer, I sure as hell don’t believe that two-thirds of women are experiencing a “physiological or psychological barrier” with regards to orgasms.
The answer to all of this is to look at the disparity. Alexander, of course, doesn’t mention the percentage of men who orgasm with a female partner every time during sex. And I had a pretty strong feeling about what the reason might be. Here it is: the first statistics I found, from a different but significantly more recent study, approximately match Alexander’s citation for the number of women who always have an orgasm at 30%. And those who did were significantly more likely to enjoy sex a “great deal” and be satisfied with their sex lives. Same with the men, actually. And you know the number of men who reported always have an orgasm? Seventy-four percent.
Wow, you think that might have maybe been worth mentioning?
When it comes to the specific study that Alexander cites, the findings are very long, published in book form and seemingly not available online without payment. But I did find this through WebMD, which claims to cite the exact same study. According to them, the study found that 75% of men reported having an orgasm every time! And you better believe that I choked on my orange juice when I saw they cited the study as showing that only twenty-six percent of women reported having an orgasm every time. Which is clearly closer to “roughly one-quarter” of women than “roughly one-third.” Someone is obviously mistaken here. I can’t say for sure who it is. But seeing his huge logical fallacies and blatant omission of important facts, not to mention that WebMD wasn’t trying to prove any argument in particular, my money is on Alexander for who is fibbing to make a point.
Brian Alexander — the type of guy who writes this shit to discourage women from rightfully expecting better from men — is the kind of guy who doesn’t care. As he might say, this is “not true for all men, of course.” Many men aren’t assholes and are good sexual partners, who make sure their female partners have orgasms whenever possible, and who communicate with them to find out what they really want. Many men aren’t stupid egotists who put so much pressure on their partners to have an orgasm that she can’t and ends up faking it. Many men actually do care.
But these numbers tell us that Alexander is wrong, most men aren’t the “Boy Scouts” he makes them out to be, and far too many men still see women as something to use for sexual pleasure and not sexual beings in their own right. Too many men are still not reciprocating. They’re fine with women being second-class sexual citizens and apparently think this set up is biologically determined. And sexists like Alexander who apologize for them and tell us to leave the poor boys alone because they’re trying their best are aiming to keep it that way. Strangely enough, I’m not.
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Yep, there’s a reason I gave up on sex advice columns long ago. Oh, they are so bad. The only one I could ever stand was Sue Johanson.
Wow. 26 percent, huh? That is “impressive.” Albeit not in the way Alexander means.
Awesome piece! I participate fairly regularly in a sex-advice community, and we often encounter young women who are clearly dating Guy Type 1 — Girl and Guy haven’t figured out how to get girl to reliably come, and Guy pouts like a baby and croons over his poor, wounded ego. Oh, BTW, Guy Type 1 is also usually terrified of vibrators, which is the clearest sign of all that it’s all about his pride and only incidentally about her pleasure.
A decent advice columnist would have responded to the question by saying, “Well, some men care and some men don’t — and here’s how to tell the difference.”
…even if the guy is working like a Spartan.
Doesn’t he mean Trojan?
Well based on my experiences as a very slutty lesbian, I’d guess your latter suggestions are correct. Get away from the PIV/male-ego focus of sex and it seems that almost every woman can come almost every time. If I had a dollar for every “straight” woman I’ve had sex with who reacted with something along the lines of “OMG, the men I’ve been with clearly have NOT really known what they were doing!”….well, maybe I could buy that motorcycle I’ve always wanted.
Trojans are losers.
A Spartan Man is the ultimate manly man. Not like those (slur) Thebians who always gotta have another man with them.
More on a serious note. I would *love* to play around with that data and do more testing with the same data set. I would test for empathy, sociopathy, and autism and check out the spread of sexual satisfaction among the partners. Sexual selfishness, properly measured, might be able to tell us alot about ourselves.
Wow. Great review of that idiotic piece.
I always wonder about those 26/30% statistics that get thrown around. And what the term ’sex’ means, and to whom. Obviously that would make a huge difference to who you are talking to. If you ask a man, Do you orgasm every time you have sex? and he’s thinking in his head ‘well yes, I orgasm quite frequently when inside a woman’s body’, that is one answer. If he thought of ‘well, yes I orgasm when inside a woman, and while I am performing oral sex on her’ that would also illicit a different kind of answer, even if it becomes the same in its wording, a ‘yes’.
When I personally think about ’sex’ I do not think about a dick inside of me. So let’s say a woman is asked, ‘Do you orgasm every time you have sex?’ and she thinks only penis sex and therefore her answer is no, she is weighing the question very differently than a woman who thought ‘ why of course I have a clitoral orgasm when my partner licks my clit’. I know many people have heteronormative sex lives and unfortunately that often includes little to no oral sex for the woman, so perhaps many of those 74% non orgasmic women were only thinking about penile sex…and therefore their answer was no. Because from my understanding women truly are less likely to orgasm with intercourse alone, without clitoral (I mean come on, how many of us truly understand our g-spots 100% of the time?) stimulation– so based on his wording in this article, it could be considered impressive if almost “30%” of women orgasm with just penile intercourse.
Wow, I probably didn’t make any sense but it sounds ok to me at this point. What I’m trying to say is the varying meanings of ’sex’ alone make studies like this completely questionable. Add some asshole who doesn’t seem to understand any version of sex very well to begin with conducting the interpretations of said study, and it’s even less credible.
p.s. Spartan? Ok, he definitely interprets sex as being some sweaty muscly man jackhammering some poor woman who’s just thinking ‘when the hell is he gonna be done?’ Talk about a fake orgasm, yikes.
Here, here.
Wow…my attempt at blockquoting really didn’t work….. please ignore that last post if it gets past moderation that way
*hides head in shame*
Chel, you make good points. I did pay attention, because it’s so frequent, to see if they defined “sex” as “intercourse” to the respondent. There’s no indication that they did, otherwise we would definitely read the statistics wildly differently (and they would actually match with the numbers of women who say they do have orgasms from intercourse).
But you’re definitely right that it’s up to the participants to define “sex” when no definition is given, and it’s quite possible that they didn’t include things like oral sex, or manual stimulation, vibrators, etc. From the ABC poll, though, I’m pretty convinced that they generally did, since the numbers of women who said that they “usually” have orgasms from partnered sex was pretty high, and very large numbers of women can’t have orgasms from intercourse alone any of the time. Without more data from the study that Alexander references, though, it’s impossible to say what might have happened there and whether or not the numbers are accurate. I did find some other studies that placed the number of women who always have orgasms around 50%, but they were much smaller samples, often conducted online, and just all around less reliable.
Fixed it for you, Chel, just because I’m in a good mood today ;)
That’s a very good point Chel, not only does the narrow definition of “sex” make this study meaningless, but it’s also another part of the sexist paradigm. The belief that the word sex only refers to penis-in-vagina sex leaves out so many people and practices. This could have been included in the original critique of the article.
As for how to make a study more meaningful, someone should compare women’s frequency of orgasm during penis-in-vagina sex, during oral/digital sex and during masturbation. That would eliminate the frigidity bullshit. They could also add a study comparing women’s frequency of orgasm between lesbian/bi/queer and het couples. Or a study of bisexual women comparing their own experiences with their male/female/other lovers.
(regarding my last comment:) Actually you know what, those studies would never happen because they aren’t important to men.
Bushfire, interestingly enough, I looked for stats on frequency of orgasms between two female partners, and didn’t come up with anything more than some online polls. So definitely, it’s an area in need of study.
As for the PIV sex thing, I absolutely agree that the problem exists, and is most likely related to the issue discussed above (and hope it was clear that when I referred to guys “caring” and such that I didn’t mean they were thrusting extra hard). Without being able to access the study that Alexander referenced, and with his own reference to oral sex, I’m still not convinced that oral/manual/etc sex was being excluded in this particular instance. But I have discussed the issue previously, and one such post is here.
Here are a few ways to know whether your partner cares about your orgasm:
1. Foreplay is important to your partner and (I can only speak from my hetero experience) he does things that he knows you like and that make you feel good.
2. During intercourse there is a partnership in positionining that makes both of you feel good.
3. During intercourse he holds off on his own orgasm, at least partially because he knows it takes more than a few strokes to get to your orgasm.
4. HE DOESN’T POUT IF YOU DON’T COME. If there is doubt, he may ask, and may offer subsequent stimulation to ensure your orgasm, but if you say no, he’s not going to need his ego stroked cause he’s not thinking about his ego.
I believe that is the proper way to answer the original question. (And for sex advice, always defer to Dan Savage…)
It’s not the one-third in asshole land (one-forth in reality) I’m concerned about – that still leaves 2/3 or even 75% of women who don’t orgasm every time during their loosely-defined sex.
If women are so self-conscious and shamed about their own bodies (especially regarding masturbation) to not know/experiment with what is pleasurable, how are they going to be able to tell someone else how to get them off?
p.s. Spartan? Ok, he definitely interprets sex as being some sweaty muscly man jackhammering some poor woman who’s just thinking ‘when the hell is he gonna be done?’ Talk about a fake orgasm, yikes.
I almost had an orgasm just from laughing…
“Having to soothe your man’s ego over your inability to reach orgasm isn’t a sign that he cares about your orgasm — it’s a sign that he’s thinking about himself.”
Thank you for that paragraph.
My roommate’s never had an orgasm. All of her partners (men) have trouble understanding that she’s not going to achieve orgasm with them. They assume that everyone else she’s been with just did it wrong, and of course they’ll be the one to show her true pleasure! So they make a huge deal out of it and keep pushing for it and don’t understand that she can enjoy sexual intimacy without achieving orgasm. It’s frustrating for her, and I can’t stand that they’re making it all about them (while trying to determine for her what her level of sexual enjoyment can/should be).
Message to the general public: If your partner doesn’t get off, you can still have a good time. Stop making it about The Big Bang and just enjoy each other in sexual and intimate ways.
On the subject of Spartans, all I can say is that female orgasms were the last thing they were concerned with — the husband came home from the military once in a dog’s age to have sex with his wife, and if that single fuck didn’t result in a pregnancy, the intervening period was considered pretty much of a waste of time where the woman was concerned.
On the other hand, some historians believe Spartan women were encouraged to have other men’s babies while their husbands were away, and they worked out just as hard as the men, and they could own property and barely had to wear any clothes and were allowed to go freely out in public and everything. So maybe by “working like a Spartan,” our boy Brian meant “contentedly going off to kill people for the better part of his life while his wife gets her kicks, sexual and otherwise, for herself.” I think we can all agree that in many cases that would be the better system.
calliopejane, I wonder if your experience with the women also has to do with either the fact that straight women find w-on-w sexier because its new and shiny, or that straight women who are up to experiment are more likely to be comfortable with their bodies and therefore more likely to orgasm? Hmm.
On topic, I wonder why some of my friends cannot orgasm and some can, when we were all raised with matching sexual attitudes. I tend to think its not just the attitudes, but a physical problem.
I think what bothers me the most about this, is that he understands sex as something men do to women. Orgasms are something men give women. Neither are things that we achieve. Looking at sex this way only allows for a male heterosexual perspective.
Nice reply article.
As for the Spartans, sure the men might not have been as big into womens orgasms, but both the men and the women were often into gay sex so perhaps the women got their orgasms there.
I don’t expect that I speak for everyone, but I know I faked orgasms because the alternative was suffering through a man trying to make me come. If I didn’t make the appropriate noises, I had to deal with either twenty minutes of a man mashing his fingers against my clit until I fake it, or endless sulking and demands that we have sex again until I come. It’s was never about my pleasure, it was about me making the appropriate range of whimpering noises.
And then I met an FTM who knew where my g-spot is, and it’s been endless, mindblowing sex since then. But I suspect I’m one of the rarer happy-endings to bad-sex stories,
Yeah, the whole men working like spartans to give their woman an orgasm is pretty silly. And the porno references was downright insipid. This guy is pretty stupid. I don’t think this is rocket science; just find out what she likes, and help her feel good. Help each other feel good.
I’m having trouble understanding how a man being upset with himself for failing to give his female partner an orgasm is a bad thing. Granted, perhaps asking what he can do better is a more proper response than “pouting,” but implicit in that pouting is the assumption: “Sexual partners have an obligation to make sex a pleasurable activity for everyone involved.” Isn’t that a good assumption?
I know I’m generally somewhat strident, but I’m genuinely flummoxed here – how is concern over one’s partner not reaching an orgasm apathy?
As I said in the post AC, there’s a distinct difference between caring if your partner reaches orgasm because you want them to enjoy sex as much as you do, and “caring” if your partner reaches orgasm because it makes you feel like a big bad manly man. It’s not the same as apathy — it’s just caring in the wrong direction. Selfishness isn’t apathy, it’s just . . . selfish.
If there’s concern, it’s appropriate to make sure that your partner isn’t asking you to stop (after you of course STOP first) because they think you’re bored or something. It’s appropriate to ask if there’s something you can do differently next time. It’s not appropriate to say “You’re SUPPOSED to have an orgasm” because that’s what the women in porn do or whatever. I have a friend who once had a boyfriend who actually told her there was something wrong with her because she could only come in one particular way, and some book he read said that she should be able to come a different way, too. I wanted to punch his face in, but the point is that even though he really wanted her to have an orgasm, he clearly didn’t give a shit about her pleasure (seeing as how all he did was make her cry and feel like she was sexually defective). He wanted it to prove to himself that he was totally awesome in bed.
Also, if you read the comments here from people saying that they know what I was referring to because they themselves have experienced it, they should give you the answer you’re looking for and happen to explain very well what is so frustrating and dehumanizing about it.
Every time this topic comes up, a woman says, “Orgasms aren’t necessary–sexual intimacy is enough.” Never heard a man say that. Hmmm … maybe something to do with that 74% thing.
Personally, I can’t understand women who know they don’t orgasm, who won’t orgasm, bothering to risk UTIs and pregnancy just to please someone else. I hear how selfish it is for a woman to not suck it up (no pun intended) and go down on her boyfriend/husband even if she hates it, but I never hear men admonished for not sacrificing their health or comfort or whatever for the sake of the woman in their life. After all, he has a right to have every erection carried to completion, otherwise you’re a frigid, selfish bitch.
I know that’s not every case or every relationship, but this is the message I get from society at large. Like someone said, sex is something men do and women receive. Something men want and women go along with. And a man’s orgasm is a right, a woman’s orgasm is a bonus, and she should just be happy to spend that time together. (And don’t get me started on men who learn from porn how to DO sex.)
And then men wonder why I’m not interested in having sex with them. Maybe because I’m not interested in having sex when I’m NOT horny, and in the once in a blue moon that I AM, I’d like to actually GET OFF as fast as possible, not lie there being pounded for an hour while a man declares me defective for not moaning in delight. I know it’s not “just me,” but I realize that it is figuratively “just me.”
My own personal experience with orgasms is that it was very difficult for me, even when masturbating; I’d just end up getting even more frustrated with myself, the more I tried. It wasn’t until I started having sex with my current boyfriend that I hit some sort of breakthrough- like poppy my orgasm cherry, or something- and now getting me to orgasm is, as he puts it, “piss easy”. Reaching orgasms on my own is a lot easier now, too.
I think the reason why I had so much trouble, at first, was more psychological than anything else. At first, it was getting comfortable with my body. Then, it was trying to get past the frustration, and the idea that I was just broken, and that’s why it wasn’t happening. The first time I even had sex, the guy thought he was God’s gift to women, or something, I think. He had t set in his mind how a woman liked to be touched (based mostly on his experience with a past girlfriend, I think), and even though I told him I liked something different, he’d revert back to what he had been doing, before. Even telling him, “Hey, not so rough, that hurts,” didn’t really get through, because he assumed that all women must like it a certain way. When we started having sex, he thought he could do no wrong, because he had a big penis. Well, the sex was bad, his ego was quite bruised, and I had to fake it until we broke up. Not a great first experience, and it stuck with me.
Pouting is absolutely, totally not acceptable. If a man’s ego is really that fragile, he needs to boost his own personal self-confidence, rather than seek constant external re-assurance. I wish I had known that four years ago, it might have saved me a few years of dissatisfaction and grief.
Really neat thing I found from a Halifax-based company are vibrating cock rings. The cock ring holds his erection a bit longer, and the vibrator is made to stimulate the clitoris during PIV sex.
I’m having trouble understanding how a man being upset with himself for failing to give his female partner an orgasm is a bad thing.
Me too.
Let’s see what Cara stated in her original post. She mentions there are two types of men…
the First:
The first state of mind is exemplified in his porn argument — guys want their sexual partners to have orgasms because the women in porn do and apparently guys want to recreate porn in their bedrooms or something — and in his ego argument — men want their sexual partners to have orgasms because it makes them feel better about themselves. You know who these guys are? These are the guys who cause women to fake orgasms.
the Second:
The second state of mind is held by the group of straight guys who (at least in this respect) aren’t assholes. They’re the kind who think that sex isn’t just for them, understand that women (should) enjoy it too, and make the effort to ensure that he and his partner are equally satisfied. This is the guy who actually cares, and who I believe was being referred to in the spirit of the original question.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that from those two descriptions, any time a man can’t give a woman an orgasm and thus questions his own ability to do so, that this is mutually exclusive with caring for the woman and caring enough to make it about her and not about him. I’m sorry, but I think that the two are not mutually exclusive…..a man can both be caring towards his partner and YET still feel upset and worried about his ability to give her an orgasm. For example, he might question his own abilities, doubt whether his penis is long or big enough, whether his body turns off the woman, whether it’s because he’s not hot enough and the woman is thinking of someone else, whether his skills and techniques are not good enough for her….etc.
I mean, if you really care about a person, and you want the best for her, it is only natural to question your self when you can’t make her happy. Whether this is considered being “egotistical” is open to your intepretation. While some may feel that a man who questions his abilities to please the woman as “egotistical”, I would only say that is the natural response to have…..
For even more important clarity, just imagine if a woman couldn’t make a man experience orgasm…..how many percentage of women out there might think “oh crap!, is it because I’m not hot enough, is it because I’m not turning him on, is it because…..”…….I think we are seriously denying reality if we deny that many women would have these thoughts if they are unable to make the man have an orgasm, and this effect is Compounded by the fact that men are supposed to have orgasms at a snap of the finger (easy!)….so any woman who is unable to make a man orgasm……I would think there are women out there who will first start blaming themselves………does that make them “egotistical” then, this self reflection? I would think not….it is only natural.
Also, it is not only Porn that shows women having orgasms when making love with a man. It’s in popular culture….whenever a heterosexual couple is onscreen making love, and eventually fades away…..you can always hear the woman moaning, and the camera focus on her face, as she raptuously enjoys peals of pleasure throbbing through her body. The meme is: if you can’t make a woman experience an orgasm, you are a BAD LOVER, and women will mock you behind closed doors (and if you have a small penis too….).
How often do you see the camera focusing on the orgasm of the males in those scenes? Who cares? The role of the male is to give the woman an orgasms….since he is male, he is assumed to be able to have one easily enough, so no one need bother to focus on his pleasure.
When you have popular culture pointing towards men needing to be a good lover and be able to give women orgasms, is it any wonder that men will question their selves when they can’t give a woman one? Is it any wonder that men suffer from performance anxiety more than women? After all, a throbbing hard penis is necessarily for the art of good lovemaking……but if your penis can’t keep up? Well, what are you to do ? Viagra might be taken by some men because it helps them maintain an erection….and popular culture says an erection is necessary for good sex! (Ever read those romance novels where the writers have many lovely euphemisms for a throbbing member?)
Awesome piece! I participate fairly regularly in a sex-advice community, and we often encounter young women who are clearly dating Guy Type 1 — Girl and Guy haven’t figured out how to get girl to reliably come, and Guy pouts like a baby and croons over his poor, wounded ego. Oh, BTW, Guy Type 1 is also usually terrified of vibrators, which is the clearest sign of all that it’s all about his pride and only incidentally about her pleasure.
While I have never had a woman bring out the dildos and vibrators to stimulate her to orgasms during a lovemaking session, I can understand why, no matter how small, the guy might feel that he compares himself inferiorly to the dildo/vibrator in question. Afterall, it’s no secret, dildos and vibrators go on and on and on, and never get soft. And, they are more likely than real penises to give women orgasms. Which to most guys, would translate to……your penis is not good enough, this dildo/vibrator will give me orgasms better than your penis.
To get more clarity on the issue, imagine if a guy suddenly stopped halfway, and decided to get out his softcore porn mags and decided to masturbate to that, and saying “Sorry honey, but I just can’t cum….so I’m going to masturbate and look at porn instead”……are you telling me that most women will be totally alright with that and all of them will be thinking “Yes! That’s great! whatever makes you cum!” instead of “what???? I can’t turn him on and he’s relying on porn?”
Sorry for the very long post folks. This is an interesting topic.
Cara: Thanks for clarifying… the thread makes much more sense now. My apologies for my initial density.
I attempted to find better data on sexual satisfaction using some of my library’s resources. While I didn’t find anything directly on the topic, I did find a rather interesting survey by the same authors on the prevalence of sexual dysfunction in men and women. I’ve reproduced the graph of the responses here as fair use:
http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m431/Anonymous_Coward_76/joc80785t1.gif — From Sexual Dysfunction in the United States: Prevalence and Predictors, Laumann et al, 281 JAMA.1999 537-544.
The data suggests that 22% of women found sex painful within the past year, 25% of women have been unable to orgasm in the past year, and 30% have lacked interest in sex. The statistical analysis is all Greek to me, but the raw numbers are intriguing (and sad).
Am I the only one who finds the whole notion of “giving your partner an orgasm” or “making your partner orgasm” deeply and highly disturbing?
Someone else’s orgasm is not something you possess or have control over, and then give to them, or “cause them” to have. You can’t “make someone” orgasm any more than you can “make them” have sex with you. When you do that, it stops being sex. Now, I know that most people who use language like this realize and appreciate that their sex partner is a willing participant who wants to have an orgasm. And that’s good, of course. But why talk like it isn’t the case? When I have an orgasm during sex with someone, it’s definitely because they were helping me have one. But I’m the one who decided to have an orgasm, to put myself in the right frame of mind, to let myself have one. I know this isn’t always the case; some women have had orgasms even when they don’t want to, when they aren’t even consenting to sex. But that isn’t sex. It’s rape.
The attitude implied by “giving her an orgasm” or “making her come,” and the fact that this language is used far more often about women than vice versa, points to a lot of the problems being discussed here. In a situation of complete consent, enthusiastic and positive YES to sex, orgasms are not something you have and give someone, and not something you can cause or control in someone else. They’re something you help someone else accomplish. They’re not all under your control or your responsibility. There’s no doubt in my mind that that’s the wrong way to look at.
I’ll also add my voice to those saying that an orgasm is not necessarily the be-all and end-all of sex. An orgasm isn’t even what makes sex good, as far as I’m concerned. Sure, orgasms are good for release and resolution, they’re relaxing and feel really good. But there’s so much more to sex that I don’t really feel like I need to have an orgasm to have had a thoroughly satisfying sexual experience. I mean, I can always go have an orgasm by myself if I feel like it, and get most of that same experience. I kind of feel like most of the central importance given to “orgasming with someone” is caught up in all the symbolic value we’ve invested in the idea — and in the idea of “giving someone” an orgasm.
Part of the problem might be that 74% of guys (and 26-32% of women) have orgasms every time they have sex. So they may not even know or be able to appreciate what non-orgasmic sex is like, which is really too bad. It’s like not knowing how to evaluate dinner without a dessert course. Of course dessert is great and sure, why not have dessert? Dessert is a lot of people’s favorite part, and for good reason. Some people don’t even like the other parts of dinner that much, which is fine, let them eat cake. But we have a kind of overwhelming focus on dessert as the raison d’etre of the meal, which distorts the picture.
As I said in the post AC, there’s a distinct difference between caring if your partner reaches orgasm because you want them to enjoy sex as much as you do, and “caring” if your partner reaches orgasm because it makes you feel like a big bad manly man..
I’m with a man whose only other sexual partner was a woman who did not have orgasms, and I’m afraid he might not have handled it as well then (he was young) as he would now (when it isn’t an issue). He wasn’t the type who just hammered away yelling ‘Come! Why don’t you come!’ but I think any performance expectation during sex can be exactly stressful enough to make the desired outcome a near impossibility. I don’t know why more guys don’t understand that. But again… he was young.
Bonus for me though, because he’s very invested in making sure that I come as much as I like… and that doesn’t happen through standard intercourse alone. Having had the ‘why aren’t you coming’ experience myself when younger, I appreciate being with someone who cares about how I work. Which, you’re right, is totally different from some dude who has an ego investment in my performance of a spectacular outcome (tee hee).
That first paragraph was a quote, of course. I guess I failed the blockquotes course too.
I had a friend on the other side of the divide: she (briefly) dated a guy who claimed that all of his previous girlfriends had been on Prozac and physically unable to orgasm, so he just didn’t bother anymore.
So I guess I think we should be trying to change our thinking from, “I can’t have an orgasm” to “I can’t have an orgasm with you.” Two different things there.
Holly, I’m right there with you.
I’m not after a partner who wants me to have a mind-blowing orgasm. I want a partner whose willing to go to the (sometimes considerable) trouble to make sure I’m emotionally and mentally in the game. If I’m in the frame of mind to enjoy sex, then I’m going to enjoy sex, even if I don’t have an orgasm. Contrariwise, an orgasm isn’t going to make up for sex that makes me wish I were in Cleveland.
I was just sharing this article (and a few other feminist things) with my boyfriend and talking to him about why many of us are upset about the way the sex advice collumnist approached answering the question. He agrees with the basic idea, but I had to explain to him the difference many men and many women have in their approaches to sex. Many men are goal oriented, many women are process oriented, and therein lies the issue. I think that’s why many men (including my boyfriend) don’t understand how many women (like myself) can have a satisfying sexual experience without having an orgasm.
But despite this miscommunication, or misunderstanding or whatever, he still does his best like a good Spartan Boy Scout. Hehe.
Rachel: Many men are goal oriented, many women are process oriented, and therein lies the issue. I think that’s why many men (including my boyfriend) don’t understand how many women (like myself) can have a satisfying sexual experience without having an orgasm.
I have an orgasm every time we have sex, with clitoral stimulation. I personally find it unfair if he comes and I don’t, but I wouldn’t whine, nor would he, if one of us didn’t come.
However, just because I want to come doesn’t mean I am ‘goal oriented’ it’s just the finale of a good time.
My boyfriend has an awesome time if he doesn’t come, too. If the whole time you’re having sex you’re just thinking about if/when you’re going to orgasm, it doesn’t sound like the most satisfying sex life, mostly just homework.
Also, it doesn’t take a long time for me to come. Maybe I am a minority among women, but somehow I doubt it. I mean on a good day it could take a few minutes, or 20 minutes another day. It’ never normally over 7 minutes, but then again I am very in touch with my body and my orgasms.
I think part of the disparity may be explained because most men need direct penile stimulation to orgasm. It’s fairly unthinkable for vanilla het sex not to involve any penis touching at all! In contrast, it’s likely that many women need direct clitoral and / or g-spot stimulation to have orgasms, and it’s quite frequent for them not to get that sort of attention.
Not all women; some do have a real physiological problem with orgasm, and they would presumably prefer partners who find ways to make them happy anyway, rather than partners who feel their ego is threatened when no orgasm occurs. And I wonder if those 30% who always have orgasms are women like me: I do have orgasms whenever I have sex, because I have orgasms more or less whenever I feel like it. It doesn’t really matter very much if my partner is sensitive or clueless, or even if they’re physically present.
Whoa now, there are miles and miles of pleasurable, hot, varied sex (whether it’s intimate or wild or hilarious or cuddly) between “sex where you have an orgasm” and “sex that’s only to please someone else.” This is what I mean about “distorted by dessert.” Sexual pleasure is way more than just having an orgasm. And yeah, there are guys who know that.
Quite to the contrary, I think we’d be better off if more people (especially more guys than 26%) tried sex without orgasms, or at least focused on the parts of sex that aren’t the orgasm (because hey, orgasms are still a great finisher) and appreciated how mindblowingly awesome they can be. This whole concept usually only gets props when people are talking about esoterica like Tantric sex. But you don’t have to be a master of ecstatic consciousness to appreciate the process — or make the process into a really important part of the goal.
Oh for fuck’s sake, I didn’t say that a man who feels insecure about sex is naturally egotistical. I said that a man who doesn’t give a shit about female pleasure but does really like the IDEA of giving her pleasure because it gets HIM off is an egotistical asshole. And if you don’t think that guy exists — and with stats like this, are in sizable number — I really don’t know what to say.
Having ashamedly been this woman, I wouldn’t say that I was being egotistical so much as I was being a selfish asshole. But eh, I guess that egotistical isn’t that far off either. Thankfully, I know better now. As I said to AC, the appropriate response is to say something along the lines of “Are you sure you’re okay without one?” and “I didn’t hurt your or anything, did I?” And then fucking drop it. Really, this isn’t so difficult. If you want to self-reflect on your own damn time, go for it. If you’re going to pout, interrogate her, tell her your other girlfriend came just fine, imply that she’s defective, say “well I guess you just think I’m bad in bed then” etc . . . well I have a feeling that you’re an ass, and that the last statement is going to ultimately end up being pretty damn true.
Probably about as often as you see a man going down on a woman — not very. And you know why that is? Because it’s heteronormative, chauvinist crap designed to appeal to men, not at all actually about female pleasure about about giving men the illusion that women actually like the sex that most of them don’t like. In other words, it IS about his pleasure, and I’m not really sure how one misses that . . .
Rightio. And that guy? ASS. Until men get natural vibrating penis attachments, body parts that can apply such pressure and stimulation so rapidly and for so long, then we will talk. As it stands, they can’t, and a guy who gets upset that a woman needs stimulation that NO PERSON CAN GIVE ON THEIR OWN as a personal affront is, well, ignorant at best. Additionally, the guy is probably right that his penis doesn’t give her orgasms. Most likely because MOST WOMEN DON’T COME FROM PENISES. Haven’t we covered this about forty times on this thread already?
Oh my god, you really just compared a vibrator to porn, didn’t you? I . . .
Look, this doesn’t really justify a response. But let me say that if a woman pushed the guy off, got out her vibrator and rolled over and said “Sorry honey, but I just can’t cum so I’m going to masturbate instead,” it’s certainly her right to, but it would make her rude as fuck. Having never done the vibrator thing — or maybe even any clitoral stimulation at all during intercourse? — clearly you’re rather confused about how the whole thing works.
Timothynakayama, your post is a brilliant example of “I can make you have / give you an orgasm” mindset in action. Seriously, try subtracting that idea from the way you think about it and see if it makes more sense. Strictly speaking, although the underlying sentiment is understandable, nobody should ever try to “make” anyone have an orgasm. The orgasm is ultimately their choice and responsibility — you are helping them, quite possibly playing an important and vital helping role, but it’s not your choice, duty, or causative force. That goes for men and women both: we should all be the bosses of our own orgasms!
I do have to agree with Holly here. I have been in a situation where sex was really good and not even wanting the orgasm saying “nah, it’s cool, I’m satisfied.”
Now, I asked in the post about this — whether women really are more likely to enjoy sex without an orgasm or just more likely to say so because it’s what they expect. I still don’t have the answer to that question. I would like to add to the question “are men less likely to say that they’re satisfied without an orgasm, because it’s what they expect?” The street does indeed go both ways.
But I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting an orgasm every time, and believing that this is what you need for satisfaction. Everyone is wired differently, and indeed if I didn’t get an orgasm just about every time, I’d be fucking pissed. But some women do actually have trouble having orgasms, either because they actually do have a psychological barrier (been there)or because they are on medication that causes difficulty (been there too), and it is wrong and pretty condescending to imply that those women must necessarily be having sex not for themselves but to please a partner. No, I still had sex in those situations and enjoyed it because it felt good, and sexual satisfaction was far from impossible.
I can understand why, no matter how small, the guy might feel that he compares himself inferiorly to the dildo/vibrator in question. Afterall, it’s no secret, dildos and vibrators go on and on and on, and never get soft. And, they are more likely than real penises to give women orgasms.
Oh ye gods and little fishes, an entirely unironic and humourless recap of Nashe’s ‘A Choice of Valentines’!
No, folks, humanity hasn’t really changed since Shakespeare’s day. Not a jot nor tittle.
And yes, “I will make you come”/”I can make any woman come” is not at all about female pleasure nor respect for partner, but about male power. (Which is one reason I hate the sex scenes in 95% of bodice rippers, since that’s what portrayed as TEH SEXAY – macho hero forces reluctant heroine to enjoy what he thinks all women must enjoy, and of course he’s right, because he’s all manly and shit, and so she gratefully discovers that she can have ORGASMS(TM) and life is now all worth living, even if he’s a total bullying schmuck to her outside the bedroom, too, because of those earthshakers. It’s starting to fade a little, even as it’s allowed that the heroine doesn’t *have* to be a virgin anymore, but not all that much.)
Not only is this not necessarily true for all people, it also doesn’t inherently make silicone dicks all-around “better” than organic dicks. (Although I’m quite fond of the “women don’t always need a man for sexual pleasure” arguments about the superiority of dils and even cucumbers, let’s get down to brass tacks here.) Yes, it’s certainly true that silicone dicks are “better” at certain kinds of things, like always staying at exactly the same level of hardness, or being detachable so you can operate them more conveniently by hand, or switch who’s using them.
But some of those things are not always positive features! Dildos are unquestionably worse at some things, like being directly wired into your partner’s nervous system so you can make them feel stuff when you touch them there. That is a very neat feature. Or being more directly connected to the user’s hips than even a well-made harness allows for. Believe me, I have handled a wide variety of dicks made of various materials, from both sides, so I know what I’m talking about. It’s apples and oranges — or at least, tart green apples and sweet red apples.
If you are comparing your dick to a detachable, vibrating silicone dick, to an inhuman tool designed for a very particular purpose, you are seriously measuring using the wrong yardsticks. And if it’s all about being a tireless, rapidly shimmying pumping machine that never goes soft, is that even the kind of body you would really want? It would make it hard to wear pants for multiple reasons. It’s just another grotesque, exaggerated symbolic myth being peddled by the patriarchy; look away, boys, look away.
Also, it is not only Porn that shows women having orgasms when making love with a man.
This is one of the funniest things I’ve ever read because it is so TOTALLY IDIOTIC AND MIND-BOGGLINGLY WRONG. I’m seriously laughing my ass off here over the idea that the women in porn are having actual orgasms, that they’re “making love” “with” a man, and that the male orgasm isn’t the be-all and end-all of porn.
Jesus. Porn is about having male sexuality enacted upon women, whether or not they want it, and having the male orgasm used as an additional kind of violation: all over the woman’s face, body, etc.
I mean, your whole post is stupid and wrong, timothynakayama, but that one line really takes the cake. Congratulations, your shipment of FAIL has been delivered.
Cath, I don’t entirely agree with you second paragraph (for some porn, definitely true; for others I wouldn’t say so), but your post still made me laugh my ass off. Heh.
Thank you to Holly and Cara for keeping some perspective in this conversation about human diversity. Often the way these discussions go down, people who would not dream of generalizing that everyone is heterosexual or vanilla will make sweeping claims that there is something wrong with a relationship that doesn’t involve lots of mutually orgasmic sex.
It is absolutely amazing that we’ve gotten this far down the thread without the obligatory reference to The Merovingian…who starts off by saying that contrary to appearances, “Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without” And then proceeds to date rape/summon for sexual services a random pretty woman. Orgasms are pretty central to many manipulative people’s idea of bargaining and control.
– —————————————————————–
Morpheus: You know why we are here.
Merovingian: Hmph… I am a trafficker of information, I know everything I can. The question is, do you know why you are here?
Morpheus: We are looking for the Keymaker.
Merovingian: Oh yes, it is true. The Keymaker, of course. But this is not a reason, this is not a `why.’ The Keymaker himself, his very nature, is means, it is not an end, and so, to look for him is to be looking for a means to do… what?
Neo: You know the answer to that question.
Merovingian: But do you? You think you do but you do not. You are here because you were sent here, you were told to come here and you obeyed. [Laughs] It is, of course, the way of all things. You see, there is only one constant, one universal, it is the only real truth: causality. Action. Reaction. Cause and effect.
Morpheus: Everything begins with choice.
Merovingian: No. Wrong. Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without. Look there, at that woman. My God, just look at her. Affecting everyone around her, so obvious, so bourgeois, so boring. But wait… Watch – you see, I have sent her dessert, a very special dessert. I wrote it myself. It starts so simply, each line of the program creating a new effect, just like poetry. First, a rush… heat… her heart flutters. You can see it, Neo, yes? She does not understand why – is it the wine? No. What is it then, what is the reason? And soon it does not matter, soon the why and the reason are gone, and all that matters is the feeling itself. This is the nature of the universe. We struggle against it, we fight to deny it, but it is of course pretense, it is a lie. Beneath our poised appearance, the truth is we are completely out of control. Causality. There is no escape from it, we are forever slaves to it. Our only hope, our only peace is to understand it, to understand the `why.’ `Why’ is what separates us from them, you from me. `Why’ is the only real social power, without it you are powerless. And this is how you come to me, without `why,’ without power. Another link in the chain. But fear not, since I have seen how good you are at following orders, I will tell you what to do next. Run back, and give the fortune teller this message: Her time is almost up. Now I have some real business to do, I will say adieu and goodbye.
I have. You are right that more women see it that way then men, but I think that’s a problem with the men, not with the women. If men were less concerned about their own orgasm and more concerned about making sure the experience was pleasurable for both themselves and their partners, a lot of people would be having better sex.
Oh for goodness sake. Orgasms are not the only pleasurable part of sex. To me, they’re not even the best part of sex (and I say that as a woman who falls under the “usually but not always orgasms during sex” category). There’s lots and lots of pleasure involved in the sex itself – not just the emotional pleasure of being intimate with somebody else, but lots of physical and mental pleasure too.
Orgasms aren’t necessary-sexual intimacy is enough. There, a man said it.
Personally, I can’t understand women who know they don’t orgasm, who won’t orgasm, bothering to risk UTIs and pregnancy just to please someone else.
And um, when did sex=intercourse?
Well, I’ll make it another man who has had pleasurable sex (even using intercourse as the definition) without orgasm.
I’ve had lovers who climax at the drop of a hat (well, most clothing) and others who climax very rarely. Right now I am involved with a woman whose medication (I don’ t think it is Prozac) makes it impossible for her to climax. She sometimes describes it as a cliff edge she can run to but can’t jump off and fly. I know it somewhat frustrates her, but she isn’t so craving orgasms that she’ll go off the medication just for that.
More frustrating to her has been the men who have told her they have the solution – a move, a position, an extra toy, another girl, what have you – that will make her come. Before we ever got together she told me stories of people annoying her with that, so when we play it is not orgasm-focused, since that would be pointless and frustrating for all involved.
While I have never had a woman bring out the dildos and vibrators to stimulate her to orgasms during a lovemaking session, I can understand why, no matter how small, the guy might feel that he compares himself inferiorly to the dildo/vibrator in question.
A guy who does that is an insecure baby. My husband is actually quite fond of my little vibrator because it takes the pressure off him to feel responsible for my orgasm (and there really is social pressure on guys to feel responsible for that — let’s not pretend there isn’t).
I think the block here is that there is still denial that the clitoris is the source of a woman’s orgasm. Sure it is extensive and can be accessed internally, but only when she is engorged. First of all we need to stop calling it Foreplay. Fore as in BEfore, as in before the real sex which of course we all know is intercourse.
Sure the head of the clit is accessible, but how many people really know how to stimulate it? This is not just a matter of rub rub rub. There are actually people who spend their day researching just how, how much and seems to be for how long can a woman experience sexual pleasure. Here’s one of them – http://www.welcomed.com .
What a weird question anyway. That’s another thing about advice columns that bug me… “let’s generalize what all men/women/people think.” Clearly there is only once male-accepted position on this issue, written in a declaration and voted upon by the International Convention of Men. What?
timothynakayama, I think others have covered what’s problematic, but this is what’s absolutely right about your comment… There is a ton of pressure on men from the “male gaze,” or normative masculinity, or patriarchy, or whatever you want to call it. There are all kinds of crazy expectations men feel when it comes to sex. The thing is, where are those expectations coming from? I think they come from a systemic, patriarchal indoctrination process. In other words, they rarely come from an actual female partner. So men do feel a ton of pressure to have sex in certain ways and accomplish certain things through sex, but that pressure is from the patriarchy. And, as you can see from some of the responses to your comment, the women who experience sex with the men who buy into all those cultural expectations feel ignored, shamed, etc. as the men try to meet sexual “goals” that have nothing to do with them–or with actual intimacy. The men feel shitty, the women feel shitty, and patriarchy calls it a day.
This is an excellent example of patriarchy doing fuck all for anyone involved.
OK Y’all,
Here’s where I have to jump in.
Cara & Co., very interesting poll, article, counterarticle and subject, but I gotta say w/all due respect that I’m a bit disappointed, yet not surprised, w/the general tone of the thread as well as the treatment of Tim. Cara completely sidestepped his point because it didn’t fit the script. You know good and damn well thered be Hell to pay if dude decided to whipout some girlie mags to jerk off to right there in bed w/his woman beside him. I thought his analogy was not only on-point but it reflected badly on Cara that she didn’t even try to hear him out.
The overall tone of the thread is, if dude is only interested in getting himself off he’s a jerk, and if dude is interested in getting his lady off but that doesn’t happen, guess what, he’s still a jerk. Perfect scenario, because he’s damned if he do and damned if he don’t. Nice.
Whatever happened to taking personal responsibility here? Sex is for Adults ideally, and in the adult, realworld, if you don’t bust a nut, guess how’s fault that REALLY is? For all the posts I’ve read here, I haven’t seen ONE here that actually contains any useful information-specific and detailed-that helps either the women or the men in their lives. I understand the “process” of women needing t hash things out, but how about just a little bit of goalsetting here, and set about solving problems?
And about this “majority of guys being jerks” business-yea, what else is new. Women since way back in the day have known this, and by what I’m reading here its alive and well. A good man has always been hard to find so it don’t make no sence to bitch about that. Get on w/the business of livin’.
But the deal is that times HAVE changed since the 50s, ladies. The vast majority of guys out there actually do give a damn about the women in their lives and actually try and make an effort to please them. Instead of the usual daily excoriation, how about helping some brothas out for a change? If we ain’t gettin’ the job done, SHOW US HOW, OK?
OK, I’m gonna turn it loose here. Y’all holla back
Salaam
Mu
What point did I sidestep? Did I deny that there’d be hell to pay if a man whipped out a porn magazine during sex, and ignored his partner to jerk off? Don’t see that. I said that a woman who acts similarly rude and inconsiderate should also be considered a jerk. So what is your point? Are you trying to argue like Tim that using a vibrator during sex with your partner is the same as ignoring him or her? Because if so, you’re very wrong.
I don’t know how many times I have to refute this claim. Not my argument, never has been, already said it numerous times. The guy is a jerk if he only wants to get himself off, a jerk if he tries to demand his partner have an orgasm, and he’s a jerk if he doesn’t try to give his partner equal pleasure. A guy who tries, finds out what his partner likes and does his best to do those things is not a jerk if the woman fails to have an orgasm. And I don’t see anyone here who as argued as much.
Uh, most women do, and those who don’t usually don’t because a.) they have some reason to think their partner doesn’t care or b.) hav only had partners in the past who didn’t care or c.) haven’t done the exploratary work to actually quite know what they like. But here’s a tip: if you don’t know what she likes, and she’s not speaking up on her own, you could, you know . . . ask her. “Do you like when I X?” or “Would you like it if I X?” is a good place to start.
Revolutionary, I know.
You know good and damn well thered be Hell to pay if dude decided to whipout some girlie mags to jerk off to right there in bed w/his woman beside him.
Yeah. And as Cara pointed out, if a woman whipped out her vibrator to do it herself right there beside her partner, that would be equally rude. But that’s now how introducing toys into play works – it’s more like the woman asking her partner: “Hey, do you want to try using this on me?” or her partner asking her: “Hey, can I use this on you?” (or: “hey, can I watch while you use this on yourself?”)
if dude is interested in getting his lady off but that doesn’t happen, guess what, he’s still a jerk.
Ummm, no. If he’s only interested in getting her off to feed his own ego, he’s a jerk. He’s not a jerk if he genuinely cares about her pleasure. But if that’s the case, he won’t pout or berate her if it doesn’t happen.
For all the posts I’ve read here, I haven’t seen ONE here that actually contains any useful information-specific and detailed-that helps either the women or the men in their lives.
This isn’t a sex advice website. If you need help figuring out how to give your partner an orgasm, you’re probably on the wrong site.
Or: “Hey, what do you think about using this WHILE we’re . . .” Using a bullet vibrator during intercourse is a favorite and Betty Dodson recommended! As are other variations . . . using a vibrator while your partner stimulates your g-spot with fingers, using a dildo while receiving oral, and so on.
And let us not forget in this discussion that vibrators actually feel good for the guys, too. Perhaps not generally as good, but good is still good. So straight men, if you’ve never had a partner use a vibrator during intercourse, you might be surprised to find out that she’s not the only one getting an additional thrill. Just sayin’.
calliopejane says:
July 7th, 2008 at 5:35 pm – Edit
“If I had a dollar for every “straight” woman I’ve had sex with who reacted with something along the lines of “OMG, the men I’ve been with clearly have NOT really known what they were doing!”….well, maybe I could buy that motorcycle I’ve always wanted.”
Hmmmm, I’d have to agree with you, here–on the motorcycle that is. If your heart is set on that Harley Sporster, though, then were talkin’ alot o’ pesos and straight womyn–you Don Jaun, you~! lol
Hello Cara,
I see the Battle is joined. LOL
OK, here’s the big problem I have in what you said: there’s all kind of reasons why the woman can’t cum, but its still the duty of the man to fix it. I thought this was a forward leaning feminist site? Again, how about taking some personal responsibility? At the end of the day, if you don’t bust a nut, it aint Patriarchy’s fault, or dude’s fault, or whatever’s fault, ITS YOUR FAULT. And the great thing about that is, you can fix it.
This notion that the man *must* figure out how to do what is in essence the woman’s job, seems to me to go against all that Feminism stands for, which as I understood it, had to do w/self reliance and agency. As I said earlier, this ain’t the 1950s, its 21st century America, where most guys do give a fig about the gals in their lives. But men aren’t mindreaders, and I think its terribly unfair for so many women to push off their own problems onto men to solve.
Trust me Cara, I have no problem w/a woman sitting me down and explaing to me in clear language what the deal is, and then showing me exactly what to do. And I think I speak for most reasonable guys here.
OK holla back
Salaam
Mu
And yes, “I will make you come”/”I can make any woman come” is not at all about female pleasure nor respect for partner, but about male power.
I think “I will make you come” is legitimate, sometimes. Not in every sexual relationship and every situation, but there is power in sexuality and it can be pleasurable. Making someone come, making them lose control, etc, is not inherently negative in many relationships– it can be exciting for both partners. It’s the expectation that one partner has to ‘make’ the other do something, or that women are always the done-to and men always the doer, that’s poisonous.
I agree Mu, which is why it’s a good thing that none of us said those things. And Holly in fact left several comments making a somewhat similar argument — that no one “gives” you an oragasm.
So I’m not really sure what you’re debating with me. Unless you equate “it’s any person’s responsibility to do their best to give their sexual partner equal pleasure” and “it’s a man’s duty to fix a woman’s inability to orgasm,” I’m not arguing what you seem to think I’m arguing.
Ways in which the guy in a straight sexual encounter can been seen as to “blame” for the woman’s dissatisfaction: he doesn’t bother with clitoral stimulation but just fucks her and rolls off, he refuses to take advice, he refuses to do any of the things she likes, he doesn’t bother finding out what she likes and assumes that he knows best, he says “come for me, come for me, come for me” so that the woman feels pressure and then can’t come.
Not being an asshole and having a duty to “fix” women’s inability to orgasm are not the same thing. And in any case, it usually doesn’t work — generally the best way for women who have difficulty orgasming to learn how to orgasm is masturbation.
Please speak for yourself Mu.
Cara: Ways in which the guy in a straight sexual encounter can been seen as to “blame” for the woman’s dissatisfaction: he doesn’t bother with clitoral stimulation but just fucks her and rolls off, he refuses to take advice, he refuses to do any of the things she likes, he doesn’t bother finding out what she likes and assumes that he knows best, he says “come for me, come for me, come for me” so that the woman feels pressure and then can’t come.
To be fair, I’ve been put in this position by both men and women. While generally speaking I think that men do this more (and I’ve been that guy), I don’t think that an inability to listen to what a partner really wants and needs is necessarily sex-specific.
Agreed. I was keeping my comments within the context of the discussion at hand, and Mu was directly referring to “women who blame men for not having an orgasm.”
Mu’Min,
First, I’d say that claiming that feminism (or any liberation movement, for that matter) “stands for” fill-in-the-blank as a way of telling a feminist that her feminist point is unacceptable by feminist standards… That sounds to me like asking Cara to toe the line without actually making an argument about why “feminism” should stand for what you think it stands for. It’s imagining feminism as a lot more monolithic than it is or should be.
Second, while promoting individual freedom is an aspect of feminism, I don’t think that feminism (or any liberation movement) can be said to stand completely for “self-reliance,” particularly since the ideal of individualism is often precisely what our culture uses to discourage collective action and the recognition of the fact that our individual experiences are shaped by collective oppression. You know, that little saying about the personal being political? By individualizing the reality of many women’s collective experience of being treated badly by sexual partners, you isolate those women from the possibility of a community that gives them the confidence and support they need to kick said partners to the curb, or at least demand more from them.
Third, Cara never said that women shouldn’t know how to give themselves orgasms. She just said that men should listen to their partners about their wants and needs, instead of pressuring them to conform to this or that sexual standard.
Wait… how do we know whose fault it is? Maybe dude is a complete jackass and terrible in bed, and actively does something that ruins the possibility of orgasm?
For that matter, why is it necessarily anybody’s fault? Isn’t it just as possible that it’s not really anybody’s “fault”?
I have a hunch that placing blame and determining fault isn’t the best strategy for achieving or helping someone else to achieve orgasm. That’s just my hunch, mind.
I don’t want to bother with sex if I don’t come. I just don’t see the point. Oh no, am I actually a dude?!
To CB: Who are you?
To Cara: OK, lets see if we have a meeting of the minds here.
I think a gal has much bigger problems than simply trying to bust a nut if she’s saddled down w/the kind of jerk you described-which has the potential of going off into a whole another direction, why so many women make such bad choices in mate selection…but I digress.
OK Clara, on the other poster’s point we agree. Fair enough.
The only thing that really bothered me in your reply to Tim was in the bitterness of it, especially when I didn’t perceive any ill will on his part.
Holla back
Salaam
Mu
Mu: I’m one of the people you claim to speak for.
Can I take a minute to point out that, historically, we’re just coming out of a weird period of American-European history where women were not supposed to be orgasmic? Before Victorian science came along, it was believed that a woman’s orgasm was necessary to conception, so if you wanted your wife to give you children, you had to make sure she had an orgasm. It’s only very recently (as in, within the past 150-200 years or so) that this whole weird notion that women weren’t supposed to enjoy sex came along.
Sometimes I think it’s like breastfeeding — as a culture, we went so long without it that we now need assistance to figure it out, because women can no longer rely on their aunt, mother, sister, cousin and friend to have all done it and know all the tricks.
Shorter me: Freud and his “vaginal orgasm” can bite me.
Now that’s a reason I’d fake it!
But while Freud was indeed an ass, women do have g-spot orgasms. So I’m hoping that you’re taking issue with the name and/or with his idea that they were “better” than clitoral orgasms and women who couldn’t have them were defective.
Some women have g-spot orgasms — it doesn’t seem to have the same level of certainty that the clit does.
But, yes, the point is that Freud declared that clitoral orgasms were “immature” and that emotionally healthy women would only have vaginal orgasms, which ruined it for everyone since women would feel like failures every time they had an “immature” clitoral orgasm, which made it less likely that they’d be able to relax enough to have any orgasm at all. Combine that with the social pressure that said women weren’t supposed to be having orgasms in the first place and, well, you end up where we are today.
Mu’Min says:
July 8th, 2008 at 1:06 pm – Edit
“OK, here’s the big problem I have in what you said: there’s all kind of reasons why the woman can’t cum, but its still the duty of the man to fix it.”
Would you like a wrench…no, ok, cause I have many here in my tool box. “Duty”, “man”, “fix”…if, any womyn left anything up to a man to “fix” (you know the adage, “don’t leave anything to a man to fix, he’ll never get it DONE right the first time”). Look closely at those three words above–you are still holding out for some antiquated measure of men fixing womyn and it appears that there is something terribly defensive about your posts–on the one hand, you are saying that womyn are demanding (even in the event that a womin has to ASK for stimulation that they happen to like) that a man should ‘fix’ their ‘lack’ (you can refer back to your original post, as well) and on the other, you are demanding that this board play ’sexologist’ to what I sense seems like a highly personalized issue or problem that you can’t seem to get over, figure out, or wrap your head around. Not only are you demanding that womyn continue to fix this problem of their ‘lack’, but that this board would do better to serve the interests of men in providing them with the sexual ‘chutzpa’ and ‘know how’ to overcome their performance anxiety.
I have to ask, “what the fuck do men want?” (note my tremendous sarcasm). Let’s continue…
“I thought this was a forward leaning feminist site?”
Depends on what your interpretation is–if you are looking for the anti-feminist site “REAL WOMEN OF CANADA” then this ain’t it. The notion of the “poor man syndrome” that is reflected in your posts can be found over there.
“Again, how about taking some personal responsibility? At the end of the day, if you don’t bust a nut, it aint Patriarchy’s fault, or dude’s fault, or whatever’s fault, ITS YOUR FAULT. And the great thing about that is, you can fix it. This notion that the man *must* figure out how to do what is in essence the woman’s job, seems to me to go against all that Feminism stands for, which as I understood it, had to do w/self reliance and agency. As I said earlier, this ain’t the 1950s, its 21st century America, where most guys do give a fig about the gals in their lives. But men aren’t mindreaders, and I think its terribly unfair for so many women to push off their own problems onto men to solve.”
I think, Salaam, that you are trying to decontextualize ‘history’ in the 21st century and the significance of socialization and social roles–you know, the history of: sexual slavery, colonization, and the domination and control of female sexuality and reproduction through domesticity (the list goes on and on and on). All of which I speak of here IS about patriarchal discourse.
If I may put this somewhat generally–Salaam, men are not being ‘told’ by womyn that they are incapable of bringing them to orgasm (although some truly can’t bring womyn to orgasm and we all know the reasons for that); the social order (that constitutes what, how and when male desire is defined) is creating that through misguided notions on masculinity and male desire–one example that is a leading industry created by men for men is the selling of sex through prostitution and sensationalist videography called pornography. Pornography is about sensation and it is not about love or erotic intimacy or (ta-da~!) sex, and its spectatorship is central to the male voyueristic gaze.
What Feminism(s) strive for is engaging womyn to take control of their SEXUALITIES and REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS (to name a few). If a womyn is clearly taking the time to say to you what they want or need, enjoy or desire, then it is their right to assert their sexuality and bodily pleasures or desires, but now onto your next quote because it gets better…
“Trust me Cara, I have no problem w/a woman sitting me down and explaing to me in clear language what the deal is, and then showing me exactly what to do. And I think I speak for most reasonable guys here.”
What is the definition of a reasonable guy, I ask you? You generalize, then personalize, then generalize, and then personalize, again. If you genuinely have no problem w/a womyn explaining to you “what the deal is” then I have to ask, why on earth does a woman have to sit You down and explain to you why they can’t orgasm (with you)? Why why why is it always left upto the womyn to explain anything to a man, and, when she does is more than likely left in the very precarious position to have to ‘fix’ the male ego, or left to feel bad or inadequate about asking for pleasure, or left with the task of Anatomy 101.
Yes, Salaam, you may be the exception out there–one among a minority of men, who may or may not have benefited from the feminist position of “by, for, and about” womyn, in accepting YOUR responsibility for the domination and subjugation of women’s bodies, sexualities, and desire, or do you?
Wow, with the, er, brilliant insights given to us by Mu’min in this thread, I feel obligated to share this bit of wisdom I picked up at Shakesville earlier today (h/t commenter allex):
“STAND ASIDE LADIES. COCK_BEARER COMING THROUGH.”
psst… thanks, Cara for an awesome article.
On another note, a lady here on this thread said something earlier that really got my mind to going…
She said, and I’m paraphrasing here, that IF a person make another cum, but they didn’t want to, that would be *rape*.
Now, that’s a very interesting situation to consider to me. So let’s do it like this…
Dude makes girly cum against her will, and since we’re on the topic I don’t mean a mild swelling here, I’m talkin ’bout DEFCON 4 type levels of Orgasm here…involuntary drooling at he mouth, legs uncontrollably quivering, you name it.
Now-is that rape?
In my mind, when I think of *rape*, I’m thinking, threat of violence, use of weapons, gettin’ a beatdown if not killed. The last thing I’m thinking is girlfriend getting damn near a G spot O out of it.
So, what y’all think on that one? Am I wrong here, or what?
Holla back
Salaam
Mu
PS: Ashley I saw what you said will holla asap
f you genuinely have no problem w/a womyn explaining to you “what the deal is” then I have to ask, why on earth does a woman have to sit You down and explain to you why they can’t orgasm (with you)? Why why why is it always left upto the womyn to explain anything to a man – Femsei
Last I checked, as a man, I don’t have woman parts. I can read about how things work, etc., but at some level I don’t know my partner’s body as well as she does. Even if we both were of the same sex, that wouldn’t necessarily mean we have the same needs, desires, etc. She needs to tell me what works for her and what doesn’t. It isn’t that it’s left up to a woman to explain stuff to a man … people don’t magically know automatically what gives their partner pleasure — people have to communicate these sorts of things.
My partner might not understand certain things about my responses, needs and desires. So you know what? I have to explain things to her that she might not have realized. Do I go around grumbling “why, why, why is it always left up the man to explain everything to the woman?” No … I explain because I want her to know. And similarly, she explains what she wants me to know.
In general, there can be a “why can’t a man just give me what I need to have an orgasm?” vibe to these sorts of discussions that we’re having here. A giving and loving man will want his partner to have an orgasm and will try to respond to her needs. But what if her needs are very much different than his abilities? Pace Rachel’s comment about men holding off on their own orgasm, some people cannot feel pleasure from their partner unless their partner is fully in the heat of the moment — and holding off orgasm requires a shift in concentration that interferes with being in the heat of the moment. But it may be that a man can only be in the heat of the moment for so long before he reaches orgasm himself. And if this is not long enough for the woman to reach orgasm?
So the man should build up his endurance you might say. And any loving, giving partner will work to do this. But shouldn’t the work go both ways? Shouldn’t a woman, if she wants to orgasm better and more frequently with her partner also try to meet her partner half-way? If he can work to build up his endurance, shouldn’t she work to be able to reach orgasm quicker? At some level anyway, shouldn’t a person take responsibility for their own pleasure? And part of that does mean communicating to your partner what works for you (your partner is not a sexist ingrate simply for not magically knowing that you like X but not Y or Z) as well as for you to be able tonot have to depend on having a two hour sex marathon to reach orgasm (e.g. learn how to get yourself off quickly and then teach your partner what works for you).
At the very least, in the real world, kids, work, etc. mean you don’t have time for two hour sex marathons every night (or heck maybe not even every week), but if we men seem to be able to get off given the constraints of sex in the real world, why can’t more women? Is it all because we men are such lousy lovers who can’t find the clitoris?
At the very least, in the real world, kids, work, etc. mean you don’t have time for two hour sex marathons every night (or heck maybe not even every week), if we men seem to be able to get off given the constraints of sex in the real world, why can’t more women?
Because most men get off from PIV sex and many (most?) women don’t. If a het couple only has 20 minutes to have sex, most of that time is probably going to go to PIV, and that will probably result in him having an orgasm and her not.
This is the kind of justification people use for not caring whether or not their partner ever orgasms.
It’s like if Dick orgasms, and then is done with teh sex because of that, but his partner Jane didn’t orgasm and hasn’t orgasmed yet in their time together….and Dick just says,
“But honey, orgasms aren’t necessary, it’s just that I get them every time. For YOU sexual intimacy is enough”.
It’s a cop out for being an outright asshole and uses a guilt factor on top of it.
I’m not saying sex can’t be good without orgasms, but this kind of attitude towards it can be used in a harmful way.
Yes, you’re wrong. And your ignorance is highly offensive on a feminist site. I am not your 101 feminist instructor. Go do your research before you continue to comment on the matter and say that if a woman doesn’t feel like she’s about to get beaten to a bloody pulp that it wasn’t rape. Any unwanted sexual contact is sexual assault. If a man inserts his penis into a woman’s vagina against her will, is it not rape because a lot of women like that sort of thing? If that’s what you think, your ass is getting banned because I do not have the time for you. If it’s not what you think, then you need to go reevaluate your previous statement. How would you feel if a guy grabbed you and jacked you off against your will? You had an orgasm! No violation there . . .
Seriously . . . with regards to extreme ignorance over rape, this is Nice Cara talking. I will flip the fuck out next.
Slam, Bam, Thank You Ma’am.
Too true.
Uh, there’s a huge difference between YOU saying that when you don’t have an orgasm and YOUR PARTNER saying that when you don’t have an orgasm. If your partner says it, he/she needs to get kicked out of the damn bed. But I think people should be able to express their own thoughts with regards to their own sexuality.
Er, hopefully it was clear that I meant a lot of women like that sort of thing WHEN CONSENSUAL, not that a lot of women like having penises put in their vaginas against their will. Oops.
In my mind, when I think of *rape*, I’m thinking, threat of violence, use of weapons, gettin’ a beatdown if not killed.
Well, there’s your problem right there, then. Your mind. It does not seem to be operating quite up to speed.
I’ll fix some of that for you right now, though:
Rape occurs any time someone is made to participate in a sexual act to which he or she has not meaningfully consented.
I don’t care what it usually looks like on Spike TV.
Cara says:
July 8th, 2008 at 4:53 pm – Edit
Mu’Min says:
“In my mind, when I think of *rape*, I’m thinking, threat of violence, use of weapons, gettin’ a beatdown if not killed. The last thing I’m thinking is girlfriend getting damn near a G spot O out of it.
So, what y’all think on that one? Am I wrong here, or what?”
Mu’Min–rape + orgasm DOES NOT = consent. Under any circumstances if a woman asks you to stop, resists, and/or says NO, YOU stop! It is rape if you continue. And, in the event that it is consentual in the beginning but during sex she asks you to stop, resists, and/or says NO, YOU STOP. Otherwise, yes, it is rape.
Cara says:
“Yes, you’re wrong. And your ignorance is highly offensive on a feminist site. I am not your 101 feminist instructor. Go do your research before you continue to comment on the matter and say that if a woman doesn’t feel like she’s about to get beaten to a bloody pulp that it wasn’t rape. Any unwanted sexual contact is sexual assault. If a man inserts his penis into a woman’s vagina against her will, is it not rape because a lot of women like that sort of thing? If that’s what you think, your ass is getting banned because I do not have the time for you. If it’s not what you think, then you need to go reevaluate your previous statement. How would you feel if a guy grabbed you and jacked you off against your will? You had an orgasm! No violation there . . .
Seriously . . . with regards to extreme ignorance over rape, this is Nice Cara talking.”
“I will flip the fuck out next.”
I am already there…
Yeah, I’m working on managing my anger these days, Femsei . . . ;)
Because most men get off from PIV sex and many (most?) women don’t. If a het couple only has 20 minutes to have sex, most of that time is probably going to go to PIV, and that will probably result in him having an orgasm and her not. – roses
So is it better that most of the time is spent in the man pleasuring the woman in other ways which still won’t be enough to get her to orgasm and leave the man unpleasured?
*
I wonder how people would react in the opposite situation (leaving the patriarchy in general as a sad fact of life): what about if a woman reached orgasm in a “slam bam thank you sir” fashion but the man required a lot of cuddling and caressing even to get to the point to which he could have PIV sex and then still required a lot of oral sex and manual stimulation to get off. Given the nature of the patriarchy, even if the man said “I’m more process oriented than goal oriented — I don’t care if I reach orgasm”, the woman, expected to “please her man” might feel like she has an obligation to “last longer” (but then the shift in concentration needed for the woman to last longer would make it so the man is even less likely to reach orgasm) and it would certainly hurt her ego if she couldn’t fulfil the expected sex role of “pleasing her man”.
In such a case, would a woman be “egotistical” for wanting her man to have an orgasm even if she only wanted it so that we she could feel confident that she “pleased her man”? Would it be fair to ask the woman to take more time for sex, realize that sex is more than just PIV sex, place pressure on the woman to engage in more foreplay and then make fun of her if she orgasms early by describing her technique as “wham bam thank you sir”?
Well, remember the patriarchy puts pressure on us guys too — we are expected to “provide” for women (including, per chance, orgasms). So is it really such a sign of male evilness that maybe our egos get involved in helping women achieve orgasm? And is it really fair to us men not to meet us half-way in the sex department?
I know the “role flipping” isn’t entirely symmetrical because the power issues play out differently, but still, I do hope you see how you might perceive things if it were a woman who got off quickly from PIV sex whilst the man required a lot more. I suspect many of you would feel that the man should just learn to get off quicker and not be so needy in bed.
*
Of course the other big issue is “what constitutes an orgasm?” Just as “sex” means more than “PIV intercourse”, we must be very clear how we define orgasm lest we set ourselves up with unrealistic standards (resulting in women thinking — “well I’m not having orgasms like the women in porn, so what’s the point” and men giving up on helping their partners get there for the same reason). If you define orgasm, e.g., for a man as emmission, ejaculation and the accompanying waves of contractions — I, e.g., only have orgasms about 50% of the time I have sex with my partner. If you define orgasm as having a few involuntary contractions down there of the sort that would accompany ejaculation with the result that if you stop the sex right then and there you don’t end up with blue balls … yes, I have orgasm 100% of the time (and in many cases I have multiple orgasms). OTOH, if you define orgams as like a porn movie “OMG YES YES” situation where the Earth moves, etc. — that happens even less than 50% of the time.
For clarification:
my intention was not to misappropriate the word “salaam” (peace) in reference to Mu’Min in my first post; however, given the context of Mu’Min’s posts he/she is advocating for a different kind of “peace” in salutation, and not one that I generally cater to. So, for now, my original post will read ’salaam’ in exchange of the name Mu’Min (my error in the adrenaline rush of posting), but any future posts will be correct.
Mu’Min, just watch that little episode I recounted in the Matrix Reloaded.
The Merovingian sending a woman an orgasm cake is pretty much the exact same thing as in real life when some dude slips a micky in a woman’s drink. And in both scenarios they walk off with a visibly compliant woman, and in both scenarios, they get orgasms, perhaps more than one. In both cases, it’s rape, of a very deep and wrong sort.
Never saw Spike TV, too busy out earning a living I’m afraid. LOL
To Cara: it seems we haven’t had a proper introduction to each other, so now’s as good a time as any. My name is Mu’Min Bey, I’m a Brotha from Philly, hardworkin’ guy by day, astrologer & Inner City Pundit by night. I’m a Conservative (YES, there IS such a thing as a Black Conservative) and I am sympathetic to Dad’s & Men’s Rights-BUT-I also happen to think Women & Feminists are Human Beings who have a right to exist and thrive. I don’t believe in living in an Echo Chamber, that’s for cowards and Dittoheads and I aint either. If things are to get better its gonna take folks coming out of their comfort zones and talking to peeps they normally holla at. And that’s why I’m here. Nice to meet ya.
Now, to your reply to my Rape Question-first off, you can take the Bass outta your voice, sis. I was only asking a question, in genuine good faith, and as someone who’s given up years of his life defending a woman from the very things I was talking about, I would like to think I’d be given the benefit of the doubt before I’m threatened w/someone “flipping the fuck out”. What is this, The Incredible Hulk or something? (Good movie btw) LOL!
So, relax, calm down, I was just asking a question is all. I hear what you’re saying and where you’re coming, cool. Good people can disagree, doesn’t make you ditzy or make me evil, OK?
As for me needing to learn Feminism 101, you’d be surprised what I know Cara, in fact I could tell you to bone up on a few things. But I’m more interested in actually talking to people than bearing fangs. Doesn’t mean we have to agree 100% on everything, either. Imagine how truly boring life would be if that happened!
Holla back Cara. Looking forward to making a new friend. The choice is yours.
Salaam
Mu
PS: My name is Mu’Min, friends call me simply, Mu.
Well, it’s probably a good thing that I didn’t use it in a harmful way.
I’m saying that FOR ME, orgasms aren’t necessary, sexual intimacy is often enough.
I’ll go even further and say that FOR ME, when I’m with a partner, orgasm without sexual intimacy is difficult and dissatisfying. In fact there are often times when I WOULD MUCH RATHER have an extended cuddle and make-out session without the pressure of orgasm-driven sex.
But obviously, I’m the unicorn in this discussion.
Oh Noes, Mu’Min got his ass banned. But I couldn’t not approve his last comment where he supposedly identifies himself, tells the hysterical feminist to calm down and says that I shouldn’t get upset over a little disagreement on something like WHETHER OR NOT RAPE IS RAPE.
You won’t be missed.
DAS, your last comment is really, really offensive on multiple levels. Further comments insisting that women change their biological makeup and move their clitorises to the insides of their vagina or some shit to please men will not be approved.
This is your warning.
But to answer your ridiculous question: if the situation were reversed, yes it would be perfectly fair to expect that women treat their male sexual partners like equal human beings. Jesus Christ.
And for fuck’s sake “Wham, Bam, Thank You M’am” has nothing to do with a man’s ability to last in bed — it’s about his consideration for his partner. Notice how the “thank you” part indicates that he’s all done, it’s over? Because he came? THAT’S the problem.
I think in re. the “is giving someone an orgasm when they don’t want one” argument there was a little bit of changing of the terms of discussion and some confusion. I think in all fairness to Mu’Min, he was confused as to how “giving someone an orgasm when they don’t want one” is rape even in a case where there was meaningful consent to sex in the first place. But people responded to him as if he was arguing that “as long as she isn’t forced to have sex, it’s not rape” (which argument I don’t even think Mu’Min actually made, did he?).
Of course, the real argument against Mu’Min’s confused claims is exactly what CBrachyrhynchos points out in comment #92. While for some people saying “I’m more interested in the process than the goal” is merely window dressing to make their partner feel less bad, some people really sincerely would rather have a nice experience of intimacy than have an orgasm. And if you somehow could “force” an orgasm where one is not wanted, it would be rape, wouldn’t it? That’s the argument, isn’t it?
Well, that nicely points out one of the problems here — the idea that everyone MUST want an orgasm so it’s fine to force one on them? Nuh uh. Not by a 100-mile longshot. Not OK.
What’s good in sex is what you WANT to do that makes you feel the way you WANT to feel. And the same goes for your partner, so you communicate about it; where your Venn diagram circles overlap, hey get busy with it. That may or may not include orgasms, and if included they may or may not take the central place of honor.
Anything else — all this talk about what “men have a duty to do” or how you want to “make someone orgasm” and so on and so forth, you can toss that out the window. A lot of it boils down to brainwashing about what sex “ought to be like” and it only ought to be like what you & partners want it to be like. So discarding those ideas is actually a very concrete and practical piece of advice for improving your sex life, regardless of gender!
Uh, yes he did. See, quote:
“In my mind, when I think of *rape*, I’m thinking, threat of violence, use of weapons, gettin’ a beatdown if not killed. The last thing I’m thinking is girlfriend getting damn near a G spot O out of it.”
No, it’s a sign that if you just believe blindly in that pressure, you’re either unable to overcome your programming and see it for what it is, or you have a vested interest in the system. Is that evil? I guess it depends on what passes for evil in your book.
Also, you are completely wrong in your “role-flipping” hypothesis. There are plenty of people in this conversation who have no trouble imagining these situations without gender-role dynamics, because we’re having sex that’s not straight or heteronormative. If you actually read through a lot of the comments, I think you’ll find a serious lack of “men ought to work harder to please ladies” (has anyone even said that?) and that people are saying something completely different. I’ve been trying to point out that one person’s orgasms are in fact, not the other person’s responsibility, duty, or choice, and that it has more to do with whether the person having the orgasm wants that, wants help with that, how they want help with that, etc.
Of course if you’re partnering in an enterprise for joint pleasure and one partner wants some help and the other repeatedly won’t help, or won’t listen, or focuses more on their personal gain, that’s a bad partnership polluted by self-absorption. That’s regardless of gender. And obviously not saying the same thing at all as saying “guys gotta work harder!” Figment of imagination, that one.
So is it better that most of the time is spent in the man pleasuring the woman in other ways which still won’t be enough to get her to orgasm and leave the man unpleasured?
What makes you think it won’t be enough to get her to orgasm?
then make fun of her if she orgasms early by describing her technique as “wham bam thank you sir”?
Ahh, and this is where the problem lies. You think sex ends when a man has his orgasm, because that’s when PIV sex ends. Sex can continue after a man orgasms. Really! I had a partner who rarely lasted more than ten minutes when it came to PIV, but I didn’t mock him or complain because he used his fingers or mouth to make sure I was satisfied. So yes, if men couldn’t orgasm from PIV sex, I think it would be fair to ask that women made an effort to make sure their partners were still satisfied, whether that meant accepting them at their word that they didn’t need an orgasm to feel satisfied, or using fingers, mouth, or toys to help them achieve orgasm.
And is it really fair to us men not to meet us half-way in the sex department?
What do you mean by that? Do you think women are just obstinately refusing to have orgasms from a 10 minute PIV session? Don’t you think if they were capable of orgasming from that, they would? Asking women to “meet you halfway” by learning to orgasm whenever they have sex on your terms is no more reasonable than a woman deciding she no longer wanted to engage in PIV or oral sex and asked you to learn to orgasm purely from kissing. It just doesn’t work that way.
Notice how the “thank you” part indicates that he’s all done, it’s over? Because he came? THAT’S the problem. – Cara
Ummm … having an orgasm can be, um, rather exhausting … and oftentimes a woman isn’t interested in continuing once a man has an orgasm simply because the man doesn’t have the same level of “engagement” afterwards and having sex with a somewhat disengaged partner doesn’t do anything for some women.
You claim what I said is offensive to you. Fair enough. But then, despite how you say you’d feel in my hypothetical, you want us men to change our physiology so that we remain fully engaged sexually even after we’ve ejaculated and even if we’re dead tired, etc., etc.?
All I’m saying is that intimacy is a two way street — if men cannot expect women to get off from a quick round of PIV sex then it is also unfair for women to expect men to always go the distance all the time. If men have to retrain their physiology to be able to remain engaged for a long enough time so that their partner can experience pleasure, well it’s fair for women to retrain their physiology so that they can achieve sexual pleasure quicker.
And perhaps I’m misreading Femsei ’s comment which set me off in the first place, but it seems rather ridiculous to expect anyone to magically know everything about their partner’s body … again, you have to be able to communicate your needs. And make compromises and attempt to find solutions which are pleasurable to everyone.
It would be horrendous of me to expect my partner to be satisfied with me wanting to go straight from a friendly peck on the cheek and a hug to PIV sex and reach orgasm in 5 minutes (even if that works fine for me). But similarly, it would be unfair of my partner to expect me to be able to be engaged (or even awake) for hours of sex — or, if we have 20 minutes to do things in which neither of us really are left at all satisfied. If I have to put some effort into being able to be engaged in sex for longer than 5 minutes, then my partner has to put some effort into being able to experience pleasure in a shorter time frame.
Sometimes we’ll both have the time and energy to have hours and hours of marathon sex. And we’ll both like that better. But that isn’t all the time. But the vibe I sometimes am getting here is “you better know automatically how to get me off and have the energy to remain engaged in sex for as long as it takes to get me off — and if we don’t have time for PIV sex which is what you find most pleasurable … well, that’s your problem”, which is an attitude that’s as bad as the “wham bam, thank you ma’am” attitude of some men.
Clearly I offended you without intent. I wasn’t saying anything about what it means for you. I understand your relationship to that phrase and that you think it’s ok for you to not always orgasm. I was just turning that phrase around and showing how it can be used as a bad way, with some asshole making a woman’s desire/right to orgasm something she should be guilty about (as if the ’sexual touches’ weren’t enough in themselves). I don’t always orgasm and love intimate contact either way, so I completely agree with you. I was just saying that I have also heard that phrase used against me. It can be double sided sometimes. Sorry that I offended.
If I have to put some effort into being able to be engaged in sex for longer than 5 minutes, then my partner has to put some effort into being able to experience pleasure in a shorter time frame.
I wasn’t aware that sexual pleasure worked in that manner. That you think this is possible, or even feasible, makes me wonder what planet you come from.
Okay, so use hands or mouth or a toy to help her get off before you have your orgasm. I’m overdisclosing all over the place today, but that’s how my current partner does it.
But why is: “If we don’t have time for oral sex which is what you find most pleasurable” not problematic when coming from a man and directed toward a woman? Why can’t they take turns doing what each other finds pleasurable?
And what is with the constant references to “hours and hours”? It doesn’t take hours and hours for most women to get off. It just takes more than a couple minutes.
roses,
Men aren’t the only ones who are PIV-sex centric … some women are too, believe it or not (it’s rather much stereotyping to say all women only get their main pleasure from non-PIV sex, isn’t it?)! Just like some men only can reach orgasm through PIV sex (or through self-masturbation, but that just doesn’t quite feel the same) some women similarly can reach orgasm only through PIV sex (or through self-masturbation, but that just doesn’t quite feel the same) … hence for some women, unless there is enough time available for the man to recharge after orgasm, it’s not going to make a difference (if she wants an orgasm, that is — which she may not necessarily want, c.f. CB’s point) what the man does after he orgasms as that’s the end of the PIV sex for a while.
And even if the woman is perfectly happy to be pleasured by a man post the man’s ejaculation via oral/manual sex, the man, being “satisfied” is naturally going to respond in a somewhat different way than he did before. Maybe sometimes a woman might actually prefer this (because the man is less “desparate” for satisfaction) but sometimes a woman might rather not like the difference in energy from a man. It varies from woman to woman and even from time to time, doesn’t it?
You ask “Do you think women are just obstinately refusing to have orgasms from a 10 minute PIV session?” The question can be reversed: do you think men are just obstinantly refusing to continue with sex with the same level of intensity after they are exhausted from their own orgasm? Some men no doubt are being obstinate with their “wham bam, thank you ma’am” attitude … but sometimes the man really is too tired or the woman doesn’t appreciate the change in energy … and if the man tries to take longer, that change in energy is not appreciated either. And if the man should work to be able to keep up his energy/endurance so that way even after the man has achieved orgasm, he can still continue to please his partner, then shouldn’t there be some sort of equal burden on the woman to, well, somehow do a similar amount of work on making sure the experience is good for both parties?
*
Part of the issue is “the patriarchy”. As a guy, I know that there are things that I can do (and do do) to try and build my endurance, increase my ability to experience pleasure, etc. And I can look in “guy’s magazines” and find tips to do so and tips on “how to get your woman to please you”. No doubt there are similar excercizes (both mental and physical) for woman — but look in a women’s mag and what do you see? not “how you can get the maximum pleasure in bed no matter how long your man can last” but “how to please your guy”.
“If we don’t have time for oral sex which is what you find most pleasurable” not problematic when coming from a man and directed toward a woman? Why can’t they take turns doing what each other finds pleasurable? – roses
That would be an example of “meeting each other half-way”.
My problem is this distinct vibe you get ’round these parts that a good man will always do whatever it takes to give his partner pleasure even at the expense of his own pleasure (ignoring that some people can only feel pleasure if their partner is feeling pleasure).
Of course, this is assuming the case where oral sex is that which one partner wants while the other partner wants PIV sex. Sometimes both partners do want the same thing and each partner requires that the other partner be fully “in the game” to get off. In such a case, if one partner lasts a lot longer than the other partner, well then … it can cause problems.
DAS says:
July 8th, 2008 at 4:19 pm – Edit
If you genuinely have no problem w/a womyn explaining to you “what the deal is” then I have to ask, why on earth does a woman have to sit You down and explain to you why they can’t orgasm (with you)? Why why why is it always left upto the womyn to explain anything to a man – Femsei
When quoting, please remember to put wprds, sentences, paragraphs in their complete form.
“Last I checked, as a man, I don’t have woman parts.”
So, just for clarification, then, I am speaking to a dick! I know, that was crude, but DAS, you left yourself open for a little feminist humor…
OK enough of that, DAS, I think you are trying but you are attempting to educate someone, like myself, on what it means to be in a mutually loving, intimate, and sexual relationship. I cannot speak to or for you or your partner on what you experience with each other in the bedroom. Although you seem to think that there is a problem with my quote, you are not looking at the broader context of what that means, and, you are not clearly defining your logic in relationship to the above issue on Brian Alexander, the MSNBC sex advice columnist.
If you were really concerned with the above noted excerpt by B Alexander, you would actually be incensed by the fact that media, through generalized content analysis picked up willnilly from some science lab, is skewing the very issues that couples, in this case heterosexual, face in relation to having to fulfill ascribed social roles, social standing, and socio-sexual performance in the bedroom.
The problem, DAS, is not you or your partner, but the very context in which mass media (MSNBC columnist) represents you and your partner. This is the problem DAS because it defines men as performers having to live upto some masculine ideal (be it having to please wymin to orgasm–and yes, your less of a man if you don’t) and women to the feminine ideal of having to put out and ‘always’ have an orgasm (whether or not they want it and or have it and or like it).
“It isn’t that it’s left up to a woman to explain stuff to a man … people don’t magically know automatically what gives their partner pleasure — people have to communicate these sorts of things. My partner might not understand certain things about my responses, needs and desires. So you know what? I have to explain things to her that she might not have realized. Do I go around grumbling “why, why, why is it always left up the man to explain everything to the woman?” No … I explain because I want her to know. And similarly, she explains what she wants me to know.”
I can sense that you have an appreciation for mutual communication with your partner, and perhaps you might want to add to that–communication is not merely about ‘explanation’, it is about active listening and mutual agency. Perhaps you and your partner are actively involved in creating a healthy and loving relationship through communication and listening to each other. That is good, but, when media spins and misrepresents such relations, you cannot sit back and say “this is ok”–think about how this might impact your partner if she is not in the top 1/3 of ‘always’ and think about how that represents you as a man in this world that is historically aligned with patriarchal values of sexual violence against women. What I am suggesting DAS is that that kind of media spin does a disservice to you and your partner. You may not see it, you may not sense it, it may not impact you or your partner directly, but it is there in all its historical present day meanderings, and, I think you know it, DAS, and as a man you can speak to it first hand, and you can speak against it.
In fact, DAS it is your responsibility, as a man (you did self identify) to speak out against a society that is still beholden to patriarchal constructs of maleness and femaleness and the violence that is associated with them. Speak out against this media hype and bullshit, DAS. If it doesn’t reflect your relationship then speak out against it, anyway because it will always be lurking, waiting to jump and pounce on (your) male (in)abilities and womyn’s continuous ‘lack’ to put out for their men.
“Why why why”…the answer is simple–’history’.
Wow, a completely-sincere-and-non-sarcastic thanks Holly.
Well yeah. I also think it should be taken as given that just because a person orgasms doesn’t mean that they had fun or fully consented to what was going on.
Something that really bugged me earlier in the thread, and it hit on me that there really is a form and variety of privilege around just being able to have mutually orgasmic rumpus-pumpus and the notion that its all just a matter of politically informed technique and communication strategies. I mean, the sexual revolution and the sex positive movement was great when it got the ball rolling with Masters & Johnson and Betty Dodson.
But now, I really feel a sense of marginalization that I have not really felt since I was in the closet as bisexual. At least fucking men was transgressive, and had a fashionable aura bestowed upon it by sexually ambiguous pop stars. But having a sexual relationship in which one or both partners is asexual, low sex drive, or anorgasmic is just plain wrong. It makes hitting these sexual advice columns or even the supermarket tabloids deeply depressing because they inevitably say that my relationship with my partner of almost 15 years is in a state of impending doom, that we gotta have the right pill or the right fetish product. That there is some deep-seated political or psychological problem that hasn’t been uncovered in hundreds of hours of deeply honest discussion.
It feels deeply disrespectful. Or (and this is a perfect case for the English double-negative) that we can’t get no respect for the kinds of sexuality we share.
Okay, I will concede that if a woman wants an orgasm from PIV sex and her partner can’t last long enough to give her one, that’s not his fault and she should be understanding. (I don’t think telling her to orgasm faster is much of a solution to that problem though, because I’m sure if she could, she would). But I think most women would be content with an orgasm from a different kind of sex, if her partner would be willing to provide that. But a lot of men aren’t, either because they don’t care about their partner’s pleasure, or because they’ve been indoctrinated into the culture to believe that PIV sex is the only real sex, and if a woman can’t orgasm from that, she’s the one with the problem. (Of course, there are also a lot of men who do genuinely care about their partners pleasure and are willing to introduce non PIV sex in order to help their partner orgasm). Your focus on one particular case (I’m guessing this is something that has happened to you?) is making your posts come across like women should just teach themselves to orgasm from 10 minutes of PIV sex, even though that’s just really not how it works.
Chel: Sorry that I offended.
I’m sorry I got a bit prickly.
Where the hell are you getting the impression that DAS cares about anyone but himself, because I’m entirely getting the impression that he thinks IT’S WRONG FOR WOMEN TO EXPECT ORGASMS IF I’M GOING TO HAVE ONE TOO. He’s creating strawfeminists all over the comments, acting like a fucking ass and is about to get banned from this thread.
DAS, stop acting like you represent “us men,” because I think that a hell of a lot of them, my husband included, would be rather offended at this asshattery being spoken in their name. The rule is simple: if you’re not at least willing — she may not want it, so you won’t necessarily have to follow through — but willing to help your partner achieve the level of pleasure that you want for yourself, you need to keep it in your goddamn pants and stop treating women like they’re unreasonable because they don’t like your sorry ass “it’s totally okay to fuck a woman, roll off, say sorry babe, tired, because it’s my biology” bullshit.
Yeah, funny how the vibe I’m getting from you is the exact opposite. If I’m too tired to give my partner the amount of pleasure that I received, too fucking bad. You do realize that this is what you’re arguing against, don’t you? You’re arguing against treating your partner the way you want to be treated. That doesn’t necessarily mean everyone gets an orgasm every time. But it does mean that you TAKE TURNS and stop whining “but I’m tired.”
Women can apparently get men off after they have their orgasms because IT’S THEIR PHYSIOLOGY. But oh wait, that’s not possible, because it’s not in A MAN’S PHYSIOLOGY to give a woman an orgasm first. Funny how that works.
DAS says:
July 8th, 2008 at 6:16 pm – Edit
“And perhaps I’m misreading Femsei ’s comment which set me off in the first place, but it seems rather ridiculous to expect anyone to magically know everything about their partner’s body … again, you have to be able to communicate your needs. And make compromises and attempt to find solutions which are pleasurable to everyone.”
Yes, DAS, you have misread it, mainly because it is not even directed to you, but felt somehow that maybe you have experienced something related to it. Which is fine, I understand, and sometimes the internet can pose problems for virtual communication. If I don’t account for the minute details in a post it is because most persons have a pretty good idea about bedroom politics and mutuality in relationships and what that might look like or translate into…and I say ‘most’, not all.
Jesus! Well, reading this whole thread has pointed out to me exactly why my husband and I have such a good sex life… I don’t think he ever once came at me with a set of expectations defined by my being female and his being male. When we have sex we’re partners in our activity and we negotiate the things that will give us each the most pleasure.
All the guys on here concerned about score keeping need to step back and just relate to your partners a little. There’s a world of diversity in sexual expression and most misunderstandings can be cleared up by (can’t believe I have to say this) talking to your partner and listening to what she has to say. Not difficult at all.
Cara says:
July 8th, 2008 at 7:17 pm – Edit
I say in response to DAS,
“I can sense that you have an appreciation for mutual communication with your partner, and perhaps you might want to add to that–communication is not merely about ‘explanation’, it is about active listening and mutual agency. Perhaps you and your partner are actively involved in creating a healthy and loving relationship through communication and listening to each other. That is good, but, when media spins and misrepresents such relations, you cannot sit back and say “this is ok”–think about how this might impact your partner if she is not in the top 1/3 of ‘always’ and think about how that represents you as a man in this world that is historically aligned with patriarchal values of sexual violence against women. What I am suggesting DAS is that that kind of media spin does a disservice to you and your partner. You may not see it, you may not sense it, it may not impact you or your partner directly, but it is there in all its historical present day meanderings, and, I think you know it, DAS, and as a man you can speak to it first hand, and you can speak against it.”
Cara says to Femsei,
“Where the hell are you getting the impression that DAS cares about anyone but himself, because I’m entirely getting the impression that he thinks
. He’s creating strawfeminists all over the comments, acting like a fucking ass and is about to get banned from this thread.”
You do realize that I am a radical lesbian feminist bulldagger and bitch~! And I take pride in that so, straw is not even in my language.
Cara, I am not going to engage in the minute details of the DAS bedroom politics saga–do you not see that. At the same time, I will not devalue comments that possibly suggest that DAS may really be trying to understand his somewhat self-absorbed and disjointed interpretation on [his] bedroom politics, partner, and sexual intimacy (will I have an orgasm?, who is having an orgasm?, what is an orgasm?, I’m exhausted!)…do you see what I am getting at, here. I am trying to respond and relate to DAS on the subject of MSNBC and media representations. That is the topic up for discussion, and if others want to take up the more important topic of bedroom politics and orgasms then I am certainly going to encourage and cheer them on…my full support!
And DAS if you are really giving the impression that “IT’S WRONG FOR WOMEN TO EXPECT ORGASMS IF [YOU ARE] GOING TO HAVE ONE TOO” (quote: Cara) then,
YOUR A DUMB ASS FUCKING SHIT FOR BRAINS MALE WITH A SMALL PENIS~!
now, I need to make dinner…
DAS, I don’t know why it would be such a problem that a man gets tired after having an orgasm. If he knows he’s going to be tired, then he can volunteer to pleasure his partner first. Problem solved.
Cara, I’m wondering if you would explain to me what a “straw feminist” is. That’s the first time I’ve heard it and when I look it up it seems to mean the stereotypic media portrayal of feminists, but I’m not sure where that is on this thread.
bushfire, I believe it’s the feminist version of “strawman” – an argument that for one reason or another is a fallacy, a misrepresentation of what was actually being said.
Yes, a strawfeminist is just another way of saying ’strawman’ — a transparently bad argument that the opponent doesn’t actually hold, created simply for the purposes of refuting it — but with regards to feminism.
What DAS is doing is setting up strawmen. He keeps claiming that what we want is for men to work tirelessly to give women orgasms, working at it for huge lengths of time, blame them if the orgasm doesn’t happen despite their best efforts, and do it at the expense of their own pleasure, making the poor boys work so hard that they pass out from exhaustion and can’t orgasm themselves. And then he claims that we’re being unreasonable. If that was actually what people were arguing, I would agree with him wholeheartedly. But no one has.
And your recommendation to DAS makes total sense — except that he has already discounted it as an option. I don’t know why, but it’s what he keeps doing or this conversation with him wouldn’t be going on, particularly since no one has anywhere on this thread ever argued that WOMEN MUST HAVE THEIR ORGASM SECOND.
Thanks, Charity. I also googled around a bit more and I get it now. Learned a new word today. Thanks ladies ;)
Cara says:
July 8th, 2008 at 8:51 pm – Edit
“Yes, a strawfeminist is just another way of saying ’strawman’ — a transparently bad argument that the opponent doesn’t actually hold, created simply for the purposes of refuting it — but with regards to feminism.”
It is also called “co-opting” the board with ridiculous meanderings about his bedroom politics and really, non-debatable crap just to create circular and exhaustive drivel.
I hope you can interpret that from my posts because I was really hoping to pull him into a discussion on the MSNBC excerpt and media representation, but alas, it did not happen. You pulled the plug. Now, I feel sad–my annihilation tactics gone sour–craps!
If there were a sure-fire or even fairly reliable way for EVERY WOMAN to do this, don’t you think it would be insanely popular and catch on like wildfire? It’s not like anyone WANTS it to take longer and be more difficult to orgasm. Oh wait, I forgot — you are living in a made-up fantasy persecution land where a whole bunch of imaginary women on a blog are insisting that men have to work harder and keep their endurance going longer to do whatever it takes to get a woman off. Even though nobody has said anything like that. So I guess women are just too lazy to work on this simple trick of “achieving sexual pleasure quickly through physiological retraining,” or else it’s a conspiracy to keep men exhausted and drain their yang energy. This whole idea is far more insulting to the men you’re purporting to speak for than the women, like Cara said.
No, you are making up that vibe. Really, you are. Stop hitting yourself in the face, please.
If there’s a woman who can only orgasm from six minutes of penetrative sex, then she should probably find a sexual partner who can last for six minutes, no? It’s why premarital sex is SUCH a good idea: establishing compatibility. But look, even for a married couple with this problem, there are SO many options that don’t even involve any mental or physical “trainings” on anyone’s part. Cock rings. Modulating positions and sexual rhythm so that he doesn’t come as fast — ever heard of the woman being on top and controlling the pace?
Even after he comes, you can get a lot of penetrative pleasure and G-spot stimulation, which I’m assuming is part of what we’re talking about here, from being penetrated with fingers and dildos, and dildos come in an incredible variety and can be fun for guys to use too. There are harnesses made for guys. All you need is a goddamn imagination, and the willingness to break out of stupid, brainwashy notions about sex — like the ultra-dumbass idea that only your organic dick should be used to help a woman have an orgasm, and bringing other dicks into bed somehow is going to make yours shrivel up and shrink.
There’s also an even simpler solution to this whole made-up dilemma. If a couple finds it difficult to both get off in one session, because of reasons of timing like has been talking about… then duh, why not just take turns? As has been established over and over again, you don’t need to have an orgasm in order to have sex.
Let’s say on Tuesday, Mr. and Ms. Theoretical are having sex, they move quickly to PIV sex and he has an orgasm after a few minutes. She hasn’t gotten off, but now he’s exhausted. Fine, they cuddle and go to sleep.
Then on Friday evening, they start making out again. Oh yeah, they remember, last time he got off and she didn’t. So it’s her turn now, since they both like having orgasms. He does whatever’s necessary to help her have an orgasm, whether that involves oral, or penetrative sex with a dildo if he can’t last long enough himself, or a vibrator, or whatever. Then if she feels like it, she can help him get off too, which would make him a very lucky 2-for-1 guy.
Thank you Holly, for adding some much needed humor to the thread in that second to last comment. You had me laughing my ass off at “stop hitting yourself in the face please” and it just kept getting better.
Well said Holly. I can’t fathom why people go round and round on this. It’s not really a well guarded secret that good, healthy sexual relations are predicated on communication, figuring out what turns each other on, and helping each other to feel good. I don’t think it’s a big secret and I don’t think it’s that complicated. There are other factors that can impinge on sexual relations, unrelated to the bedroom. But, that’s another issue. The mere pleasuring of each other is fairly uncomplicated.
This is a very interesting conversation. I think I’m learning something. Clearly men have a lot to learn, though some are good students.
I mean, your whole post is stupid and wrong, timothynakayama, but that one line really takes the cake. Congratulations, your shipment of FAIL has been delivered.
Thanks for your clearly witty jab? As the adage says “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” On the plus side, at least you didn’t call me an idiot, and I appreciate the small decorum that you have afforded me.
Whether the women on the porn flick really get an orgasm or not is up to debate. Even if they don’t, it is still what they are portrayed to be enjoying.
Also, you do realize that porn is produced in many different countries, and with different levels of “hard-coreness”.? I understand that this is an American blog, so the default people think of is American porn. But perhaps other countries produce porn, and it is not always as hardcore, as deprived of storylines or emotions as one might witness in standard derivate American porn. Just throwing a possibility your way to open up your mind to other possibilies, as Cara herself mentioned in the subsequent post.
And if it’s all about being a tireless, rapidly shimmying pumping machine that never goes soft, is that even the kind of body you would really want? It would make it hard to wear pants for multiple reasons.
I would think that all pants besides tough denim would be out of the question. I can imagine the discomfort in playing sports with an erect penis.
I think the ideal penis would be one that the men can control…..like, “Ok, I want an erection now, and for maybe 1 hour? then it can go flaccid again”….
That would really cut down on the accidental erections or morning wood that men get.
,I>(and there really is social pressure on guys to feel responsible for that — let’s not pretend there isn’t).
What Mnemosyne states here is what I was getting at. All the earlier posts seemed to say that a man who feels pressured to give the woman the orgasm is just an egomaniac who is worried more about his own ego stroking than pleasing the woman…….seemingly discountin the fact that “performance pressure” has always been affected many more men than women.
I think they come from a systemic, patriarchal indoctrination process. In other words, they rarely come from an actual female partner.
This is an excellent example of patriarchy doing fuck all for anyone involved.
In reards to the first statement, I agree with you that this is a patriarchal indoctrination process. But I disagree somewhat with saying that the pressure only comes from men. Just as women have received the message to be thin and pretty, and men received the message that they only like thin and pretty women, it can be the same case here where men feel that they are being judged by their bedroom talents, and women receive the message that they need a man who is good in the bedroom to satisfy them. Is the message false? Of course. But that doesn’t mean some women don’t buy into it.
As to your statement that patriarchy fucking everyone over? I couldn’t agree more!
Anything else — all this talk about what “men have a duty to do” or how you want to “make someone orgasm” and so on and so forth, you can toss that out the window. A lot of it boils down to brainwashing about what sex “ought to be like” and it only ought to be like what you & partners want it to be like. So discarding those ideas is actually a very concrete and practical piece of advice for improving your sex life, regardless of gender!
I definitely agree that doing away with the “men have a duty….” will enrich everyone’s sex life. But I think it is not easy for many men/women to discard that brainwashing process. That is just like asking women to discard the process that they need to be beautiful and thin to be accepted. Yes, we can all discard as much as we want, but even for people who have very strongly thrown away all media brainwashing, there is still a tiny flicker of it hiding inside themselves….I think Jessica Valenti proved this point when she said though she was a feminist, she still agonized a little bit when someone called her unattractive and unkempt.
So yeah, discarding such brainwashing will definitely help, but it’s not as easy as a snap of the fingers.
And for fuck’s sake “Wham, Bam, Thank You M’am” has nothing to do with a man’s ability to last in bed — it’s about his consideration for his partner. Notice how the “thank you” part indicates that he’s all done, it’s over? Because he came? THAT’S the problem.
I agree with this as well. To me, it is completely alien…….how can you fulfill your own pleasure first, instead of that of your partner (with the experience being most women take longer to reach the throes of passion than most men) ? That is completely selfish and inconsiderate. A Wham Bam Thank you Maam character would be selfish and just after his pleasure first, not even wanting to put the effort into making sure she enjoys herself as well.
I guess that’s what caused me to reply on this particular post. I’ve always tried to put my partner’s pleasure first (because, in my experience, on average, it takes slightly longer for a woman to be get sexually excited). If she can’t enjoy herself, what’s the point of making love? It takes two to tango. Maybe I have unnatural endurance, but I have never once “fired the white ghost” before the woman herself had achieved pleasure….and even if I did, I would make sure that I can still pleasure her until she is satisfied. Sure, there might be a few moments of dizziness and long breathes to replenish your vitality and stamina, but if you cared for someone, in my opinion you’d want her to be satisfied too (whether an orgasm is involved, or not).
If that makes me “stupid and wrong”, so be it.
The thing that bothers me about this discussion is the black and white always v. never idea. It seems like the original asshat article and many of the commenters are assuming that if a woman doesn’t always orgasm during sex, she must never orgasm during sex. That’s blatantly not true.
True life (personal) example. Throughout the course of your cycle, the cervix constantly changes position. Generally speaking, the farther from ovulation you are, the lower it is. I don’t know if I’m unusual in this, but my cervix is rather sensitive and if something hits it, it hurts A LOT. And ends sex pretty immediately. This is particularly true of the bigger guys I’ve been with, for some pretty obvious reasons. It’s annoying and frustrating, but it has jack all to do with either partner’s sexual skill. Consequently, I don’t ALWAYS orgasm during sex, but it’s not at all because my partner doesn’t care.
And for that matter, I am a woman who’ll have intercourse until I’m done (dry, sore, no longer wanting a penis in me for whatever reason) and then roll over and pull out the vibrator. Frankly, to whoever said it, I don’t think it’s rude at all to decide that I’m done with sex before he’s cummed, because it’s my frigging body. And this is an arrangement I have worked out with my husband, because, shockingly, he too isn’t properly stimulated from PIV sex. It works for us, we’re both happy, and that’s all that matters.
Some of the quotes I used got jumbled up. I must have not paid attention to the HTML on that. Quoting a lot of people seems to increase the number of mistakes made. Please accept my apologies on that, to those that I quoted.
My point wasn’t about it being rude to stop PIV sex before the man had an orgasm, it was about rolling over and ignoring your partner to stimulate yourself as though the other person wasn’t there. I don’t know if that’s what you’re implying that you’re doing. If it is, and you two have talked about it and he’s fine with it . . . well, whatever works for you I guess.
Tim, most of what your saying is similar to what everyone here is saying, except for your assumptions that women get off in porn movies and that those movies contain “making love”. Women in porn movies are often forced into it and are being raped. Even if it is consensual, usually the men in the movies are doing nothing that would give a woman pleasure, plus are verbally abusing them at the same time. Movies that range from mildly abusive to extremely abusive have nothing to do with love, and your assumption that women are having great orgasms on film just because they’re howling about it is stupid. The reason she probably yelled at you, I’m guessing, is because it’s really offensive to suggest that women being raped are “making love” and might orgasm.
By the way, the idea that there are a few porn movies out there in which all the actors are genuinely “making love” does not counteract the overwhelming amount of movies in which a woman was coerced into making it by an abusive boyfriend, a drug addiction, etc.
The original scenario DAS described, with the woman who can get off quickly and easily from PIV and the man who needs lots of cuddling, oral and manual stimulation and still doesn’t always get off?
Dude. You have just described me and the boy I was dating last summer. How much oversharing do you want?
Seriously, I did do some worrying that maybe I was the one who wasn’t hot enough. And there was a fair amount of time spent checking in to see if there was something he wanted that I wasn’t doing, and encouraging him to get himself off while we were fooling around if what I was doing wasn’t getting him off, and also learning to trust him when he said he was content without getting off.
I wouldn’t call it the best sex of my life, but it was possibly the most experimental, and that in itself was pretty damn hot.
Ack! Another Ashley? I might need to get more specific with my ID.
Cara, just wanted to say that your willingness to put the smackdown on rape denial makes you my hero for the day.
Hmmm, I just thought of it, after reading all those varied meaning of sex; Does touching each other’s nude bodies, during which the genitals are fondled as a /part/ of program, counts as sex even if none of the parties involved came? Or is that still just heavy petting? Which would be the third base…when I was younger I defined Home Base as penetration and had only recently redefined Home Base as orgasm…and now I r CONFUSED again.
…and hey, solution(?);
1. Man and Woman Comes Home
2. Man watches a 30min TV Program / Woman masturbate in a separate room
3. Man and Woman /then/ have sex sans performance anxiety, the woman already had one, the man usually can have one easily…much more easily now that he doesn’t have to worry about holding off for her, muucha restful cuddling can be had when the relaxing orgasms are had and done with.
Hey, tantric takes TIME and people have work tomorrow. Doing the above nightly is better than only waiting until the weekend to have The Perfect Sex.
Re: Tim
It’s a matter of thought crime that’s the difference between the two, okay? The woman who pulls out the dildo does it because she needs that physically to get off, but she’ll be thinking of the man she’s with, because if she’s not thinking of him, why bother with him when she does already have a dildo?
The man who pulls out the porn mag on the other hand, is thinking of Other Women. Now, if the man also pulls out a dildo, hey, I understand! Or maybe a vibrating cockring for himself if he needs that. Or even his own hands afterwards if she has fallen asleep…
The Case of the Female Orgasm: Bias in the Science of Evolution by Lisa Lloyd is an interesting read related to this topic.
If I’m recalling correctly, Lloyd summarizes some research that shows that women don’t actually take very long to orgasm when they masturbate (I think it’s like 3 minutes on average) and that after a certain point (10 minutes-ish I think) a longer amount of intercourse doesn’t up a woman’s chances of having an orgasm (so it isn’t just time that is a factor in women not having orgasms in male-female sex). I have known a few women (one a lesbian) who had just never had an orgasm–both were taking anti-depressants since an early age, and I suspect this was a large part if not the whole part of the problem. (My partner also takes an anti-depressant and when she was off of it for a few months she had much better/stronger orgasms and a much higher sex drive…unfortunately she also got depressed so she had to go back on them. She’s still lucky though in that she’s still in the 3 minute range and can still have multiple orgasms–they just aren’t as strong as they would otherwise be–it’s just her sex drive that is really killed by the meds.)
I’m a woman who apparently is on the very upper end of time it takes to orgasm–even when I’m masturbating it’s a 15-20 minute commitment. I just can’t be any quicker than that. And it was hard to to learn how to orgasm during partner sex (and it still involves a lot of me doing things to my own body). But I still ALWAYS have an orgasm with my partner (assuming I want one–sometimes we take turns and just focus on the other person during a bout of sex). My partner and I are often kind of confused about these kinds of studies that show only 1/3 of women having sex with men always have an orgasm. I have trouble having one, so the majority of women are probably climax more easily than I do–so why are so many of them not having them regularly? I myself have been in that situation in a couple one night stands with men–and I think the reason I didn’t get them was that I didn’t feel comfortable totally taking control of what I needed. And we were drunk and having casual sex for the first time. And there were time constraints. So those experiences were fun but disappointing and frustrating. I can’t imagine it being a usual experience of partner sex that I go to sleep having gotten all turned on and then not having climaxed.
Bushfire says:
July 9th, 2008 at 10:19 am – Edit
Tim, most of what your saying is similar to what everyone here is saying, except for your assumptions that women get off in porn movies and that those movies contain “making love”. Women in porn movies are often forced into it and are being raped. Even if it is consensual, usually the men in the movies are doing nothing that would give a woman pleasure, plus are verbally abusing them at the same time. Movies that range from mildly abusive to extremely abusive have nothing to do with love, and your assumption that women are having great orgasms on film just because they’re howling about it is stupid. The reason she probably yelled at you, I’m guessing, is because it’s really offensive to suggest that women being raped are “making love” and might orgasm.
————-
I’d be careful of that statement in bold. If I wanted, I could conflate it to, “wives are often forced into marriage” ;p Also, some women do get off on the violent, verbally abusive enactments in some porn. There is a range of porn out there that’s less violent, but from what I’ve seen, it doesn’t really sell as well.
Tim, your porn point is laughable, because porn is very obviously geared towards men. We’ve already covered this. And you’re completely missing the general point: you want to make sure your partner orgasms? Sure, no problem. But if she doesn’t orgasm and you push her to do so even if she just wants to roll over and sleep, or if she doesn’t orgasm after your best efforts and you end up pouting and scolding her for not doing so? There’s the problem.
I totally don’t understand this “but the patriarchy hurts men too” attitude (best espoused by DAS). Yeah, well, we know that. But every male I’ve seen who comes out with it as an argument just stands there, looks frustrated and/or confused (or smug), and there’s this subtle demand on women to magically fix shit for them using our Magical Feminist Powah™. Like, seriously dudes. We know. But we got enough of our own problems, so how about you go fight the patriarchy in your own damn time.
That two-thirds of women don’t orgasm could only occur in a patriarchal world It’s not an even playing field (and yes, I agree, patriarchy hurts us too, but just try taking away our perks). Sexuality happens to be one arena in which women sometimes hold the cards; this can be threatening to men who are also human beings (capable of human feelings, etc.).
How are men taught about sex? What do they learn? The “information” is not very useful, and is often destructive. A man has to actively seek out correct information on what women want and need. The sexual environment we grow up in is terribly unhealthy. Naturally there’s going to be problems, as this thread has revealed. But I’m amazed at the insights here, especially the women.
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