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	<title>Comments on: Can Sparkle be Feminist?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/08/03/can-sparkle-be-feminist/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/08/03/can-sparkle-be-feminist/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
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		<title>By: Sparkle and Embracing the Feminine &#171; Avowed Virago</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/08/03/can-sparkle-be-feminist/#comment-198259</link>
		<dc:creator>Sparkle and Embracing the Feminine &#171; Avowed Virago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 20:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=7886#comment-198259</guid>
		<description>[...] really bad at keeping up with my google reader, so I just now got around to reading Octo&#8217;s post on Feministe about &#8220;sparkle.&#8221; Sparkle (I love this term), as Octo uses it, is &#8216;a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] really bad at keeping up with my google reader, so I just now got around to reading Octo&#8217;s post on Feministe about &#8220;sparkle.&#8221; Sparkle (I love this term), as Octo uses it, is &#8216;a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: What if make up wasn&#8217;t used as barometer of feminist cred? &#171; Professor, What If&#8230;?</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/08/03/can-sparkle-be-feminist/#comment-197735</link>
		<dc:creator>What if make up wasn&#8217;t used as barometer of feminist cred? &#171; Professor, What If&#8230;?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=7886#comment-197735</guid>
		<description>[...] benefits from our squabbles over these relatively minor issues. In the post, Octogalore writes, &#8220;If ‘the patriarchy&#8217; were reading many of these posts, they&#8217;d be [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] benefits from our squabbles over these relatively minor issues. In the post, Octogalore writes, &#8220;If ‘the patriarchy&#8217; were reading many of these posts, they&#8217;d be [...]</p>
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		<title>By: season of the bitch &#187; That Video</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/08/03/can-sparkle-be-feminist/#comment-196442</link>
		<dc:creator>season of the bitch &#187; That Video</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=7886#comment-196442</guid>
		<description>[...] I posted this video the other day when I had too much going on to really explain the thoughts going through my head. It was a synthesis of my teenage dream-come-true interview with Neil Gaiman (yes, Neil fucking Gaiman, buy the next issue of Comic Foundry to read all about it) and talk about Iggy Pop, and my beloved Pop Feminist&#8217;s question Can Women Be Part of Counterculture? and Octo&#8217;s post on Feministe about &#8220;Sparkle.&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I posted this video the other day when I had too much going on to really explain the thoughts going through my head. It was a synthesis of my teenage dream-come-true interview with Neil Gaiman (yes, Neil fucking Gaiman, buy the next issue of Comic Foundry to read all about it) and talk about Iggy Pop, and my beloved Pop Feminist&#8217;s question Can Women Be Part of Counterculture? and Octo&#8217;s post on Feministe about &#8220;Sparkle.&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: octogalore</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/08/03/can-sparkle-be-feminist/#comment-195297</link>
		<dc:creator>octogalore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=7886#comment-195297</guid>
		<description>Trin, did you notice that I was stating that other people tend to use that expression?  I was not using it, nor was I condoning their use of it.  I was simply stating a fact.  I&#039;m pretty precise, and also aware (surprise) of the context of Lorde&#039;s expression.  I&#039;d appreciate the same in return, many thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trin, did you notice that I was stating that other people tend to use that expression?  I was not using it, nor was I condoning their use of it.  I was simply stating a fact.  I&#8217;m pretty precise, and also aware (surprise) of the context of Lorde&#8217;s expression.  I&#8217;d appreciate the same in return, many thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Trin</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/08/03/can-sparkle-be-feminist/#comment-195233</link>
		<dc:creator>Trin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:34:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=7886#comment-195233</guid>
		<description>Because it&#039;s relevant:

I think that &quot;master&#039;s tools&quot; quote gets misused a lot. I&#039;m not sure Lorde meant &quot;sparkle&quot; and such when she said it. I think it&#039;s important to keep in mind what she was &lt;a href=&quot;http://trinityva.livejournal.com/851757.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;talking about&lt;/a&gt; -- the exclusion of women of color from feminist fora -- when we discuss that quote.

Not meaning to put you on the spot there, Octo. Just -- I think a lot of people neglect the context of that quote so they can say that women&#039;s individual choices, like sparkle, involve collusion. When really, I can&#039;t say I know if Lorde would have thought so (though she definitely had some negative things to say about pornography and pornographized sexuality, so maybe so)...

...but it does seem to me that she&#039;d be rolling over in her grave to see people using a quote about how women&#039;s differing backgrounds have been ignored in white feminisms to make the point that some women make bad choices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because it&#8217;s relevant:</p>
<p>I think that &#8220;master&#8217;s tools&#8221; quote gets misused a lot. I&#8217;m not sure Lorde meant &#8220;sparkle&#8221; and such when she said it. I think it&#8217;s important to keep in mind what she was <a href="http://trinityva.livejournal.com/851757.html" rel="nofollow">talking about</a> &#8212; the exclusion of women of color from feminist fora &#8212; when we discuss that quote.</p>
<p>Not meaning to put you on the spot there, Octo. Just &#8212; I think a lot of people neglect the context of that quote so they can say that women&#8217;s individual choices, like sparkle, involve collusion. When really, I can&#8217;t say I know if Lorde would have thought so (though she definitely had some negative things to say about pornography and pornographized sexuality, so maybe so)&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;but it does seem to me that she&#8217;d be rolling over in her grave to see people using a quote about how women&#8217;s differing backgrounds have been ignored in white feminisms to make the point that some women make bad choices.</p>
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		<title>By: Feministe » Are you wearing your Feminist Lesbian uniform?</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/08/03/can-sparkle-be-feminist/#comment-195223</link>
		<dc:creator>Feministe » Are you wearing your Feminist Lesbian uniform?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=7886#comment-195223</guid>
		<description>[...] had some discussion lately about what kind of attire and personal adornment is appropriate for today&#8217;s discerning and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] had some discussion lately about what kind of attire and personal adornment is appropriate for today&#8217;s discerning and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: RenegadeEvolution</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/08/03/can-sparkle-be-feminist/#comment-195216</link>
		<dc:creator>RenegadeEvolution</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=7886#comment-195216</guid>
		<description>excellent post Octo, I love it.  A lot of folk (female and male) have a love of art, drama, change, &quot;flair&quot; and sparkle often is and can be a part of that.  Like anything, sparkle can be a huge part of self expression and a way to project ones moods or feelings, and I think that&#039;s pretty cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>excellent post Octo, I love it.  A lot of folk (female and male) have a love of art, drama, change, &#8220;flair&#8221; and sparkle often is and can be a part of that.  Like anything, sparkle can be a huge part of self expression and a way to project ones moods or feelings, and I think that&#8217;s pretty cool.</p>
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		<title>By: Dominique</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/08/03/can-sparkle-be-feminist/#comment-195189</link>
		<dc:creator>Dominique</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 05:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=7886#comment-195189</guid>
		<description>The problem isn&#039;t sparkle. The problem is who controls its interpretation. And the answer to that question is that, in a patriarchal society, anything sexual by women that is thrown &quot;out there&quot; (i.e., in the mainstream world) will be reinterpreted within the conceptual framework of patriarchy: as in, oh, this is all for us! (read: men). The only way to *avoid* this is through very, very careful screening... which becomes impossible when, obviously, a$$hole guys will pose as feminists to subvert and coopt our sexuality. So unless we control the society in which our sexuality is expressed, it will forever be used against us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem isn&#8217;t sparkle. The problem is who controls its interpretation. And the answer to that question is that, in a patriarchal society, anything sexual by women that is thrown &#8220;out there&#8221; (i.e., in the mainstream world) will be reinterpreted within the conceptual framework of patriarchy: as in, oh, this is all for us! (read: men). The only way to *avoid* this is through very, very careful screening&#8230; which becomes impossible when, obviously, a$$hole guys will pose as feminists to subvert and coopt our sexuality. So unless we control the society in which our sexuality is expressed, it will forever be used against us.</p>
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		<title>By: Octogalore</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/08/03/can-sparkle-be-feminist/#comment-194814</link>
		<dc:creator>Octogalore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 04:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=7886#comment-194814</guid>
		<description>Latoya, great to see your post!

You bring up some interesting issues.  First, w/r/t those outside typical beauty standards.  If there is a reclaiming going on, is that feminist more so than when those within typical beauty standards do it?  I don’t know.  On the one hand, it could send a message of power to other women.  On the other, it’s using some traditional tools to do it.  Hard to say.

Regarding WOC –

First, were you referring to “outside of societal beauty standards” as based on race, or based on body type?  (I think many WOC are within societal beauty standards, even given the white-centrism of those standards, and many who are within the SBS’s are not excluded, as much, from Sparkle).

I love the mission statement of BGB.  It works for burlesque, it would also work for a whole bunch of venues that don’t represent WOC well.  So from that standpoint I can see how this is a feminist statement, as it naturally extends this idea to other venues beyond the sexuality/nudity which are all well and good but don’t go beyond the traditional female role.  In any case, it certainly is a great self-actualizing statement.  In a way, maybe a white woman cannot accurately say whether it’s a feminist statement in this context.  I do feel strongly that a feminist statement must empower women to do more than feel good about our individual bodies, but must also empower us vis a vis men.  But perhaps this does occur in such a context.

I loved the book “Naked.”  And I understand the story about the girl’s mom’s makeup ritual.  When I was a pre-teen and young teen social pariah (think Ally Sheedy in Breakfast Club), I adopted similar kinds of masks, and they worked pretty damn well.

In the essay “Playing the Vixen” by Margeaux Watson in “Naked,” Margeaux, who is an entertainment correspondent for Entertainment Weekly and also writes for O (Oprah’s Mag), Vibe, Rolling Stone and GQ, says that she finally took control of Sparkle (she describes her body as “a living, breathing, gorgeous instrument of power”) by “achieving professional and financial success.”  She still gets unwanted comments, but now feels unintimidated by it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Latoya, great to see your post!</p>
<p>You bring up some interesting issues.  First, w/r/t those outside typical beauty standards.  If there is a reclaiming going on, is that feminist more so than when those within typical beauty standards do it?  I don’t know.  On the one hand, it could send a message of power to other women.  On the other, it’s using some traditional tools to do it.  Hard to say.</p>
<p>Regarding WOC –</p>
<p>First, were you referring to “outside of societal beauty standards” as based on race, or based on body type?  (I think many WOC are within societal beauty standards, even given the white-centrism of those standards, and many who are within the SBS’s are not excluded, as much, from Sparkle).</p>
<p>I love the mission statement of BGB.  It works for burlesque, it would also work for a whole bunch of venues that don’t represent WOC well.  So from that standpoint I can see how this is a feminist statement, as it naturally extends this idea to other venues beyond the sexuality/nudity which are all well and good but don’t go beyond the traditional female role.  In any case, it certainly is a great self-actualizing statement.  In a way, maybe a white woman cannot accurately say whether it’s a feminist statement in this context.  I do feel strongly that a feminist statement must empower women to do more than feel good about our individual bodies, but must also empower us vis a vis men.  But perhaps this does occur in such a context.</p>
<p>I loved the book “Naked.”  And I understand the story about the girl’s mom’s makeup ritual.  When I was a pre-teen and young teen social pariah (think Ally Sheedy in Breakfast Club), I adopted similar kinds of masks, and they worked pretty damn well.</p>
<p>In the essay “Playing the Vixen” by Margeaux Watson in “Naked,” Margeaux, who is an entertainment correspondent for Entertainment Weekly and also writes for O (Oprah’s Mag), Vibe, Rolling Stone and GQ, says that she finally took control of Sparkle (she describes her body as “a living, breathing, gorgeous instrument of power”) by “achieving professional and financial success.”  She still gets unwanted comments, but now feels unintimidated by it.</p>
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		<title>By: Neko Onna</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/08/03/can-sparkle-be-feminist/#comment-194812</link>
		<dc:creator>Neko Onna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 04:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=7886#comment-194812</guid>
		<description>I see this as an issue of acceptance, because it seems to be about women loving themselves for who they are.  The &quot;anti sparkle&quot; folks seem to think women who perform femininity are self-loathing becaues they pluck, powder, tease and paint away their true form.  The &quot;pro sparkle&quot; folks seem to think the &quot;anti sparlers&quot; unfairly deride them for doing something they enjoy, and/or may find personally empowering.

Isn&#039;t the answer, then, just to love people for who and what they are?  If a woman doesn&#039;t want to sparkle- great.  She should be supported and accepted by her feminist peers.  If a woman wants to sparle- that&#039;s great, too.  She should be supported and accepted by her feminist peers. Where I think there is valid room for criticism is when either camp tries to say the other is not &quot;real&quot;- not a real feminist, not a real woman- if they don&#039;t do what that particular group advocates. 

I wrote about &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://nekoonna.blogspot.com/2008/07/will-real-feminist-please-stand-up.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; in the context of some specific posts at my place a while back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see this as an issue of acceptance, because it seems to be about women loving themselves for who they are.  The &#8220;anti sparkle&#8221; folks seem to think women who perform femininity are self-loathing becaues they pluck, powder, tease and paint away their true form.  The &#8220;pro sparkle&#8221; folks seem to think the &#8220;anti sparlers&#8221; unfairly deride them for doing something they enjoy, and/or may find personally empowering.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t the answer, then, just to love people for who and what they are?  If a woman doesn&#8217;t want to sparkle- great.  She should be supported and accepted by her feminist peers.  If a woman wants to sparle- that&#8217;s great, too.  She should be supported and accepted by her feminist peers. Where I think there is valid room for criticism is when either camp tries to say the other is not &#8220;real&#8221;- not a real feminist, not a real woman- if they don&#8217;t do what that particular group advocates. </p>
<p>I wrote about <a HREF="http://nekoonna.blogspot.com/2008/07/will-real-feminist-please-stand-up.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> in the context of some specific posts at my place a while back.</p>
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