What the hell is in a name anyway, and watch your damn language!

That game is never going to end, and the prizes suck. What matters is what you do…and sorry, like me, hate my guts, whatever, I actually do some shit, and that’s what’s important, no matter what terms I do or do not use to identify myself. Point blank boom between the eyes right there. Actions, not words.

A-fucking-men!

I just wanted to say, Ren, that I really respect you and enjoy your blogging. If you want to call yourself a feminist, please do so, but I can understand why you’ve gotten away from the word. I’m not to keen on people telling me how I can define myself either. I’ve gotten into fights with other feminists about whether I can call myself a feminist because I sell Mary Kay and wear high heels. Yuck. It is pretty annoying… and that’s not even counting the men who say things like “well if I called myself a masculinist you’d be pretty put off by it, huh?” That drives me nuts.

I read your intro post last night, and immediately scampered to add you to my reader. You’re mind kind of people-keep it up. Please. :)

Nicely said Ren. Doesn’t matter a jot what you call yourself or what others call you, you are who you are and you do what you do, and that is what counts. x

Just a question to the Feministe folks: Can’t seem to comment on Bint’s recent post; is this a Feministe problem or is this more of my own technical difficulties?

I CAN comment on this one. (?)

Ren, I have a lot of respect for your work and your viewpoints (and I share a lot of irritation at the Feminist Police). Good on you, lady; do what you fuckity fuck fucking want!

Whatsername, you out-FUCKED me! lolz

I actually do some shit, and that’s what’s important, no matter what terms I do or do not use to identify myself. Point blank boom between the eyes right there. Actions, not words.

A blog is a verbal medium. Words not only matter in a blog, they ARE the blog. A not-feminist blogging on a feminist blog pisses me right the fuck off. Why is Ren here? Oh, right, goody goody the drama. I guess I’m just an old-fashioned gal who likes to read feminists when I click on a feminist blog.

Bad call feministe, bad call.

Funny, smmo, I come here to read about fighting sexism and helping women. Doesn’t much matter to me what the people talking about that stuff call themselves. Let’s keep our eye on the ball, shall we?

Hello. Ren, I don’t know you or your blog. However, it seems like if you have such disdain for the concept of writing for an audience, that perhaps you should keep a private diary instead of a blog? People have a right not to like what you say or how you say it- those two guys who wrote that Bonnie Raitt song said it best: “you can’t make them love you if they don’t.” Or rather, you could make them love you, but you’d rather be yourself. Unfortunately, it seems that in this case, you can’t have it both ways.

I would think that attempting to define feminism by academic theory and knowledge is problematic in that it is inherently classist. One would have to be able to afford to go to a college ( and one that teaches feminist theory) or even just afford to buy the books to self educate themselves which are not easy to fine anywhere, let alone cheaply. Comparing it Marxism and not agreeing with class analysis would only work if Ren came on her and said she thinks women are considered equal in society.

Hardly horrified. Thank you for the link! That rocks.

Man, I read that first thread, and unless there were a bunch of deletions, it seemed like mostly one person complaining really loudly and I thought Ren was overreacting, but clearly there is more than one person who is not so fond of having Ren here.

I am though! I don’t think feminism is that great if it can’t be challenged, and I like that Feministe is willing to do that. Also, Ren is one of the most prominent people on the web writing about sex worker rights, which strikes me as a pretty vital feminist issue.

I agree with what Natmusk said in response to Qgrrl. Also, I am sorry but not everyone has the time or the ability to go to the library (cheap though it may be) and read theory on their own. I think the idea that someone can just go to the library in order to correctly define what feminism is through the thorough study of theory is elitist and says that most likely you have never been in a life situation where you not only don’t have money, but you don’t have time. Plus, theory is often really fucking hard! Having a professor help guide you through it is invaluable.

I have always felt myself to be feminist. However, the further I delve into this world the more elitist it often seems and the less interested I am in being part of the “club” . I understand Ren’s desire to dissociate with the title in order to not have to defend it.

I just know that because I made a guess on Qgrrl’s life circumstance that there is going to be some kind of comeback saying, oh, no I had it rough…. but I don’t buy it. I have been really, really, poor and when you are uneducated, and you are surviving on two minimum wage jobs and trying to take care of a child you may be really, really aware of some of the issues that feminism often deals with but you certainly do not have time to hang out at a library studying theory. And no, dumpster diving when you are in college because it is cool to be poor doesn’t count as true poverty.

I am still a little unsure on how your introductory post was so controversial? One person (Snowe) expressed confusion on why a blogger who has proclaimed in posts to have removed herself from the feminist movement is a guest writer on a FEMINIST BLOG. She said nothing about your language. She did not claim you didn’t do great work for women. She never attacked you. She was merely asking a question.

I find this post to be quite useless. I think you are responding to a non-issue.

If anything, the non-feminists are those attacking a commenter for daring to voice her disagreement.

“Feminism *is* theory. Those are its roots”

I think it would be exactly equally true to say “feminism is activism. That is its root”. The theory and the activism have always gone hand-in-hand. But then, I also half disagree with “The word represents a body of work and a belief in a certain set of theories” – I think the word primarily represents a belief in social and political equality for all people, with emphasis on the rights, liberation and equality of women.

I don’t think a person has to read a single work of feminist theory to call themselves a feminist. I understood the basic definition of feminism, and referred to myself as a feminist, at the age of 10. So did my youngest sister, who was engaging in feminist activism by age 12, writing furious letters to the BBC in protest of the sexism in children’s TV. Neither of us at those ages had read any feminist theory. I think we both had every right to call ourselves feminists.

12 years later I have read quite a lot of feminist theory – I’ve found some of it incredibly inspiring and some infuriatingly narrow-minded and bigoted (sometimes within the SAME BOOK – y helo thar Germaine Greer). Reading has made me much more knowledgable than I was at age 10, but I don’t think it’s necessarily made me more of a feminist.

I commented on 37 days and wrote something like “pissed off” or some other mild phrase (by my standards) in my comment. It was an entry about mothers and kids in grocery stores and stickers. A very suburban white women’s world kind of post on a very suburban white woman’s blog…I was reprimanded severely…guess my words are too ghetto and “violent” for the folks over there.
The funny thing is, the woman who writes that blog claims to have a career in tolerance…
hmmmm.
I guess my “violent language” brought out the intolerance in her and her peeps.

For years I used space and dashes to create pause and rhythm.
I couldn’t type for shit, so there were tons of typos. So many that a dear friend “just couldn’t get” what I was writing. When she realized the problem was her reading it with ~her~ voice instead of mine, she finally figured out what I was relating.

It’s all about relating.
I relate and therefore, I suspect I’ll find it easy to appreciate.
glad you’re here/hear.

If you have the inclination, I hope you’ll write about the word whore.
I use it. I was in the strip industry. I was ousted from a feminist live journal for using the word and not simultaneously outing myself as a sex worker.
I wasn’t in the closet as sex worker, I was just not interested in using that as a reason to use the word whore and not be attacked.

The context was me suggesting that women use their sexuality in many industries (acting in mainstream film in particular) & are not othered as we are in more obvious facets of industrialized sex work, like stripping, call girl, phone sex, etc.
The word cunt is widely accepted over on the LJ “feminist” forum. It’s a word I am not a fan of, regardless of how many write about it (Ina’s book n all). Whore doesn’t offend me, cunt does- that’s why i don’t personally choose it too often. I don’t care what you choose to say. It says something about you, whether it’s negative or taking it back empowerment- it’s your choice to say what you wanna.
Can you imagine fighting over the word whore? It got to where I was asked if I was a person “of color” (fuck that label). If I was educated. If I was a sex worker.
Assinine.

My definition of a feminist is simple.
A woman who lives her life path as she chooses. Aware of her choices, regardless of what the current cultural trend suggests she choose. She chooses based on her individuality. A feminist is a woman who allows herself to grow. Allows herself to change her mind. Allows herself to be herself whatever that is.

Ideally, feminism is a movement, an action. One hand up and one hand down.
Awareness of individual privilege (not all privilege is money related) and responsibility.

Feminism contains and or strives toward compassion while making changes-
in my world.

Although I don’t find it necessary for someone to call themselves a feminist, I do understand why it would be so important for other people.

Obviously most people on this blog are aware of how many women say things like “I’m not a feminist, but…” They say they believe in women’s rights but will shy away from the feminist label because of how it’s looked down upon by some people. I think for some women, rejecting the “feminist” identity is a way to seem less threatening, especially towards men.

So, I understand why some feminists find it essential to identify as a feminist because it’s a way to show people you’re not going to back down and you’re going to stand firm by your beliefs.

” A not-feminist blogging on a feminist blog pisses me right the fuck off.”

I do not understand how listening to the viewpoints of women who do not claim the title “feminist” is anger-inducing. Can you explain this further?

It’s enough to make me go back to questioning whether I should also abandon the term, just because of the way it’s policed inside and outside.

Word.

This thread makes me giggle. I’ve been a feminist since I was about 10ish…and that goes back 40 years.

Arguing about who is, who isnt…which theory is right, what author got it correctly….whether feminism is classist, racist, etc…

Feminism is why, and how I didnt have to be a housewife, nurse, secretary or teacher, the choices I was given as a child. Feminism is both why, and how I could raise my son as a single parent doing a job that would have been closed to me even if it had existed back then (I work in IT as a systems engineer), and make the money to do so without getting a dime in child support. Feminism is why and how, at 42, when I found myself unexpectedly and unwillingly pregnant, I didnt have to have another child. Feminism is why and how I can have a mortgage in my *own* name, and why some imaginary dude’s name doesnt have to be on my utility bills (after my dad died when I was a kid, the phone company preferred to keep billing a dead man rather than put the bill in her name). Feminism is both why *and* how I don’t have to tolerate some asshat putting his hands on me at work.

Feminism isnt just theory, it isnt just about action. Its about how each fuels the other, and how those things impact the actual lives of women.

Of course…I’ve been recently told that I’m too old to be a feminist, and that the contributions of the women who came before me, and those like me, are “so, way, way over”, so perhaps I have no idea what I’m talking about. :-)

All this talk has me thinking about why I call myself a feminist. Why I label myself. But then I think…well how the hell can I NOT call myself a feminist? It’s just not an option, I will forever call myself a feminist.

I occasionally do find myself policing others and their use of the word. Sometimes it feels like some women have no sense of loyalty to feminism, that don’t even really know what feminism is really about.

I don’t normally see that kind of talk on feminist blogs, but I do see it amongst peers.
For example, I have only ever found myself criticizing one young woman for calling herself a feminist. She was my age my age, 19, and claimed to be a feminist and supposedly believed in equality. But she would call other women ’sluts’ who slept around, and she would put women down for dressing ’slutty’. I feel that that is an important part of feminism, eliminating the double standards and pressure we put on women and their sexuality. It felt like she was betraying me, and betraying feminism. And thus why I said she shouldn’t call herself a feminist if she doesn’t really believe in equality.

Ren IS one of the most prominent sex worker’s rights bloggers on the net. She’s also one of the most passionate, real, and relevant to a lot of workers.

I’ve been interacting with her online for a fair while now. I’m also a sex worker involved in the sex worker’s rights movement in motherfucking AUSTRALIA. And at least once every couple of months, a random Australian sex worker from a random part of Australia will post a link on the SW mailing lists to one of Ren’s posts with a “fuck yeah!” or a “look what Renegade Evolution is saying on this one!”

Some of you may need further convincing that she’s a vitally important voice that SHOULD be presented on at least one of the bigger and higher-traffic feminist/women-centric blogs, but not me. The bit where sex workers in all tiers of the sex industry in several different countries feel she can speak to and for them is enough. And frankly, her language is part of that.

Furthermore, if you think the language she uses is problematic enough that her appeal to sex workers and work for our rights becomes less impressive and worthy of promotion on a feminist blog… well, I’d suggest a good long think as to why sex workers globally also feel let down by the movement associated with that oh-so-vital label “feminist”.

I’m going to repeat this, because so many seem to have skipped right over it and think that I’m a theory whore:

“Not all feminism is academic; but at the same time, very little feminism exists without the theoretical roots that became both academic and activist feminism.”

The fact that a 10 year old girl can “get it” and trace her feminist roots to that age isn’t because that girl is precocious. It’s because there exists a structure of thought that upholds that girl’s perceptions. That structure of thought is feminism.

Fight that, not me. And failing to fight, create.

Look around, Q grrl, they’re doing all three at the same time. You want radical theory? I can’t imagine getting much more radical than the dozens of viewpoints and flavors that have come through the ol’ interweb tubes from the bloggers, guest bloggers, and commenters of Feministe right to my screen. Theres a new fight every day, a new battle ground observed, new ideas, new theory, new creations, new perspectives, even new wank. Its that last one that tends to be the most generative, as people arguing can often times bring out the best in both arguments. Orthodoxy and dogma just leads to stagnations, its the knock-down-drag-outs that leave new ideas in their wake.

As you said, theory is readily accessible. By the time people start posting (much less getting an invitation to blog here) I’m pretty willing to assume that theory has already been tackled. But for some people theory simply isn’t enough. For some people life experience trumps theory, for others dialog, and some have simply grown out of theory. The posters who have said that theory isn’t all that important (to grossly oversimplify) are saying that they’ve reached a point where it makes sense for them to stop looking at who said what over the last 200 years (or days) and start looking at what they themselves are going to say or do.

Hop on down off that high horse and wallow in the mud like the rest of us, you just might find out it isn’t as bad as it looks. Or, you know, don’t. Really, its your choice. Just do us all a favor and try to respect the choices of others who have come from different places, lived different lives, and are generally different people from you. Just because a certain path worked for YOU doesn’t mean its going to work for everyone else.

William you’re being really patronizing. Knock it off.

Ren said: Not much more substance is needed, really, because that is part of the problem, and very much part of the reason I dropped the word, right there. The whole “well she’s not…whatever. Several people are infuriated I am blogging here, other people don’t care, and some folk are even thrilled. Such is life I suppose.

It is the voluntary dropping that gets me. I’ve never suggested ANYTHING Ren has said or done should get her “feminist card” revoked or means she shouldn’t blog here. I’ve never policed, nor supported the policing, of women claiming feminism. Never have, never will. My objection is solely to Ren’s specific and deliberate rejection of the term.

But seriously, any feminist blog that does the amount of guest-blogging we do would be severely limiting itself if we only invited people who unreservedly adopt the word “feminist.”

How can I put this delicately? Bullshit.

@smmo –

I call double bullshit on your claims. Issues with the word feminist and all its connotations/policing/ideals is common place where I come from. I can only think of one friend that I have in real life (not met through the blogosphere) who would willingly call herself a feminist.

Does this mean they don’t care about women and the quest for just treatment? Hell no. A rejection of the term is not a rejection of the underlying ideas – but with things as they stand, I understand and respect the rights of any woman who does not want to call herself a feminist after prolonged dealing with feminist spaces.

Hell, I wanted to give my damn card back a few months back. I ultimately decided on the term “hip-hop feminist” to marry a hostile term with one more neutral and one that better reflects my experiences. (Hint: the hostile term is not hip-hop.)

I think everyone on this blog understands that you have issues with Ren. So will you please go about your business? Mods have spoken, Ren stays, and I, for one, am glad to see her here.

****

@Q Grrl –

Honest question – because this cuts to the heart of a lot of the issues I have with feminism – if you say:

“Not all feminism is academic; but at the same time, very little feminism exists without the theoretical roots that became both academic and activist feminism.”

But whose theoretical roots get to become the underlying principles of feminism? Whose work is accepted and whose is marginalized? I really feel what you are saying, but that is also a big part of the problem.

With me, for example, much of feminism does not reflect who I am, what I struggle with, and does not resonate with the community I want to help. So my solution is to be part of the new school that is crafting new theory to reflect that. But there is still that heavy disconnect that makes it hard to work around.

And theory, while immensely useful in helping me to achieve a greater understanding of overreaching trends and ideas lays kind of cold to people who are more or less hostile to the cause. The theory, for them, serves no purpose because there is nothing to apply it to. So where do we go from there?

“But whose theoretical roots get to become the underlying principles of feminism? Whose work is accepted and whose is marginalized? I really feel what you are saying, but that is also a big part of the problem. ”

I think this is the number one question we all need to be asking ourselves and each other right now. It is especially critical if theory is only considered to be the realm of well-off, educated, white heterosexual women. Given historic circumstances, the voice and ideas of the WEWHW (!) have been the dominant underpinning. However we live in an intensely info-centric world right now, where vocal, written, and activist platforms are easy to establish and maintain. The only thing that keeps us from shifting the paradigm from the WEWHW POV is our own investment in self-education.

“And theory, while immensely useful in helping me to achieve a greater understanding of overreaching trends and ideas lays kind of cold to people who are more or less hostile to the cause. The theory, for them, serves no purpose because there is nothing to apply it to. So where do we go from there?”

My personal belief is that theory is not there to change the minds of opponents, but to serve as a bedrock for activists when the activism itself hits rough patches (as almost all activism does). I was watching a PBS program several years ago that was documenting the Civil Rights movement. Some footage showed an interview with an African American woman who was asked “don’t you feel that you are just preaching to the choir?” Her response: sometimes the choir needs preaching to. In my mind, that is what theory does (although there are also many different ways to preach to the choir).

I’ll repeat my question from above.

Why should feministe limit guest posting to those who claim the word feminist?

What is the benefit?

Why does this never get explained?

Nice post Latoya P.

“And I see reflections of this dynamic within other marginalized groups within feminism, particularly in dealing with religion, class, intersexuality, sex, colonialism, sex work, and ability – we are all speaking about different things, but the opposition is the same.”

The hard question I’ve been asking myself is whether or not feminism is inherently large enough to tackle all of these issues. And if it isn’t, does this negate the positive impacts of feminism in the lives of women? Is feminism, as we currently know it, a specific product of a specific time? Can it expand enough to address intersectionality? It needs to, granted. But can it?

At a time when other people’s opinions and experiences are just a google search away, are we in need of a new paradigm? Or, more precisely, are we willing to create a new paradigm?

No, I was saying quite the opposite. As a feminist I want all the allies we can get.

You said that you didn’t like the fact that Ren voluntarily dropped the label. Hence me wondering as to what you would have thought more appropriate. Apologies for any confusion.

Either way, I think Ren’s been a great ally.

Try dropping your condescending attitude.

You’re right, I was out of line with the high horse comment. I was trying to make a point and clearly failed. I apologize.

But the only reason I can think of that you would make inane quips about “high horse” and the “rest of us” is that I brought intellectualism into the equation. That, my friend, is your problem, not mine. If part of feminism is to support women’s choices, say like abortion, or marriage, or children, or porn, then we damn well better extend that concept of “choice” to women’s intellectualism.

Intellectualism had nothing to do with my objection. My objection comes from the idea that there is a single truth, a solution, a right answer to the equation. If intellectualism works for you, great. Intellectual arguments are a great fit for the way I see the world, and theory is indispensable to me. That said, some people are more experiential in their learning style, some are more instinctual, some just seem to get it right out of the box without ever having to go anywhere near a book. The point I was trying, and apparently failing, to make was that choice is a big umbrella. Some of us need theory, others don’t, and when one side starts to believe that they’ve discovered The Truth you get problems.

It’s not your place to tell me to dumb it down.

You’ll get no argument from me there, but I really wasn’t trying to tell you that. If thats the message you got, I apologize. My point was that, just as I’ve no place to tell you to dumb down, you’ve no place to tell someone to smarten up. Especially since “dumb” and “smart” are so subjective they’re definitions are practically individual.

William you’re being really patronizing. Knock it off.

Yeah, I was. Sometimes I let myself a bit off the leash, it happens. I was pissed, I broke the common rules of etiquette, I apologized. Shit happens, buy a helmet.

It is the voluntary dropping that gets me. I’ve never suggested ANYTHING Ren has said or done should get her “feminist card” revoked or means she shouldn’t blog here. I’ve never policed, nor supported the policing, of women claiming feminism. Never have, never will. My objection is solely to Ren’s specific and deliberate rejection of the term.

Yeah, and I think a lot of people would call your beef bullshit. I’m one of them, I see a few others further up. Why is it that Ren should have to put up with abuse over a term? It isn’t like shes calling it a day and stopping the work she does, shes not fighting against the cause, in fact absolutely nothing changes other than the words she uses to describe herself. She decided that at some point it wasn’t worth fighting for the label. Thats her choice. Who, exactly, are you to tell her which battles she ought to fight?

You say you aren’t interested in policing women’s claims to feminism, but thats kind of a lie now, isn’t it? You don’t support women having their feminist card pulled, but you sure as hell don’t support them deciding to turn it in voluntarily. The label of feminist would seem to be a brand rather than a badge, something forced upon you rather than something you’re privileged to hold by some elite. Maybe you don’t call that policing, but I’m really having trouble seeing the difference. If someone says to me “you don’t deserve to wear that hat” and someone else says “you don’t get to take that hat off just because you want to” they’re both telling me how I ought to behave. It doesn’t really matter if I want to wear the hat or not, the presumption of both statements is obnoxious.

“Why not listen to our reasons for doing such a thing? Why is that a threat?”

Trin,

I don’t know about anyone else, but I’ve listened. And even though I don’t agree that the reasoning for dropping the label is necessarily a good one, it is a decision that I respect. Just as much as I respect the right of women to engage in sex work even though I myself do not support the sex industry in general (note: please make sure that you read that as my not supporting sex work, not that I don’t support sex worker rights).

And also, to be completely forthright, I’m not much on labels myself. One of the reasons I stubbornly cling to the label is due to the reactions the label tends to elicit from so many men. The way I see it, anything that pisses the general male population of that bad has got to be right on target.

“You say you aren’t interested in policing women’s claims to feminism, but thats kind of a lie now, isn’t it? You don’t support women having their feminist card pulled, but you sure as hell don’t support them deciding to turn it in voluntarily.”

William,

Again, I believe that’s a misrepresentation of her position. She is not saying that it is or is not acceptable for a woman to not voluntarily identify as feminist. She’s simply questioning whether it’s really a great idea for a woman who not only rejects the label but who has also been known to attack the label should be blogging on a feminist blog. It’s a question I myself I have, but since I don’t claim to have the answer, I’m not voicing any concern. Besides that, it’s not my damn blog so it really isn’t any of my business what, or who, anyone chooses to have on their blog.

“I’d like to know when and where I EVER attacked “Feminism”. Have I questioned it? Sure. Have I attacked forms of it? Yes. Have I attacked various feminists? Oh indeed…but the whole big feminism thing, as in FEMINISM?”

Ren,

Perhaps it would be more accurate to state certain feminists. It might also be more accurate to state radical feminist/m (or certain radical feminists). Regardless of clarifications, you can’t deny you’ve gotten pretty damn vicious on occasion, Ren. I almost decided to stop reading your blog after reading the post about filming a scene dedicated to Maggie. Like Maggie or not, dedicating a porn scene to a woman who has clearly feels traumatized by porn is pretty vicious.

And with all of that being said, I don’t deny highly questionable behavior from certain anti-porn feminists. Regardless, responding to an attack with a blatant attack is rarely helpful.

Faith,

Thanks for the comment. :) I do think some people don’t listen, though.

One of the reasons I stubbornly cling to the label is due to the reactions the label tends to elicit from so many men. The way I see it, anything that pisses the general male population of that bad has got to be right on target.

And, well… your choices are yours but pissing off men is just about the last thing on my mind. I don’t see men as the enemy, personally, which is part of the reason I don’t like using the label feminist for myself. I stand in solidarity with so many groups of oppressed men that “and it pisses off men” or “and you care too much about T3h M3nz” and the like is… well, something I have been entirely done with for over a year. Not my deal.

“And, well… your choices are yours but pissing off men is just about the last thing on my mind. I don’t see men as the enemy, personally, which is part of the reason I don’t like using the label feminist for myself.”

Trin,

I don’t see men as a collective as the enemy either. But if a man gets pissed off because a women labels herself a feminist, yea, I think chances are high that he’s probably guilty of something he has no business being guilty of. And I’m not going to chicken out and stop labeling myself a feminist just because a large portion of the male population gets their panties in a bunch. That’s almost always an indication that they are the ones with the problem, not me, as far as I’m personally concerned.

“But you know, do you still read blogs where, let’s see, people support the stop porn culture program…you know, where the consent of the actual performers means nothing? or where “sex pozzies” are attacked? I mean, my crack on dedicating a porn scene to Hayes…did you read why? Valid point there, really. And frankly, with some folk, I have NO interest in being helpful. Tried that. It sucked.”

Ren,

Actually, I really rarely read any of the anti-porn blogs anymore mainly because they are too triggering for me. And yes, I did read why you said what you said about dedicating the scene to her, and honestly, I didn’t see where that particular post was any different from any other standard anti-porn posts. I read through it a few times to try to see what it was exactly that was so godawful that it deserved such a response and for the life of me I couldn’t see it. Your heading was something about “subhuman indeed” which led me to believe you felt she was calling sex workers subhuman. I didn’t read her post that way at all. I read it as her saying that men who are consumers of sex work view sex workers as subhuman. But I also don’t support the slagging off on “sex-pozzies” (and find that label itself insulting and rude), as I have stated before. I just don’t see where their behavior is any worse than the behavior on the “other side”. I also don’t necessarily believe you are under any obligation to be helpful. I just think that one jab in particular was way over the line.

As for the Stop Porn Culture controversy, I really don’t know how I feel about it, Ren. I have not seen the slideshow so I’m hesitant to really respond or comment on it either way.

“I’ve never policed, nor supported the policing, of women claiming feminism. Never have, never will. My objection is solely to Ren’s specific and deliberate rejection of the term.”

My objection is solely to other feminists’ specific and deliberate rejection of Ren, her life experiences, and her voice, and how that led to her dropping the term “feminist” because of how hostile certain aspects of the movement had become to her, to the point where it affected her health. And to the fact that Ren is not the only woman to have done so. As someone pointed out above, Renee uses the term “womanist” because she doesn’t feel that feminism speaks to her concerns and needs, or represent her voice – hell, sometimes outright rejects her voice! In conversations that are supposed to be about her experiences! What the fuck is that?

Shit, I’m rethinking my use of the word feminism, and wondering if there’s a better word to describe what I do, think, feel, and fight for. For now, I find it important to claim the word so I can be a part of what that word means in our society, but I can’t for the life of me get upset that the fight just isn’t worth it for some folks. Hell, some days, it just isn’t worth it for me.

I stick with the word feminist. Maybe I really do have to admit Im getting old. I remember many years when feminist was a completely dirty word…there were no feminist blogs (no internet at all), very few places to meet or converse with other feminist women, and damn few young women who’d cop to it because the mainstream understanding of the word was “man hating lesbians who are ugly and smell bad and cant get laid and thats why they’re feminists.” (Which led to a lot of “Im not a feminist but I believe in equal pay” sort of discussions)

Since I was a conventionally pretty straight woman, one of the things I liked about using the word was challenging people’s preconceptions. When I used the word, people said “But you’re pretty! You dont have to be a feminist!” and it gave me the opportunity to expand their horizons just a wee bit.

It still does, and perhaps thats one of the reasons I use it. I find that when you challenge people’s misconceptions, it may not “convert” them to your point of view, but it does tend to open the door a crack, and even that is valuable over time.

Whether Ren or any other woman uses the word or not is none of my business, and I understand why she’s made the choice that she has. Still, I cant help thinking that if she made the choice one day to use it again, it might just open a few cracks in a few doors within as well as without the feminist movement, and that would be worthwhile, both for those whose doors get cracked, and for those Ren helps.

and the “ew icky naughty LANGUAGE!” thing just utterly baffles me

Speaking as probably one of the older people here, me too. There are “naughty words” I’m more comfortable with in some venues than others, but theyre just words, ya know?

Like you, Belle, most of them I learned from my mother.