Feminism, Race, and Sexist Dating Guides

by Latoya on 9.3.2008 · 27 comments

One of the many issues I have with feminism is how my racial identification is treated as a problem, separate from the “real issues” that feminism seeks to deal with – despite the fact that the world perceives me as a “black woman” rather than a “woman.” (The “white” that goes before “woman” is silent.) My race is supposed to go unmentioned and unnoticed – until, there is some kind of “black culture” thing to tsk-tsk and blame on the inherent sexism in the black community.

So, it was with great trepidation that I clicked on a header post from Feministing. Titled “Dating Advice from Assholes: ‘Stop Treating Women Well,‘” Ann summarizes a Washington Post article about yet another crappy book about how to catch a man.

Titled “The Re-Education of the Female” (charming, right?) some bama basically regurgitates the same bullshit being spouted at women since time eternal – cook, clean, fuck, and STFU. The cover lets me know that my initial eye-roll was the right reaction.

Boooo!

Now, Ann’s post was cool, and I was about to click off to some other part of the internet, but for some reason, I decided to read the comments.

The first ten or so were cool, expressing general disgust at the ignorant sentiments. And then, we get to this one:

I echo the sentiments already expressed. I am disgusted by this.

I am also disheartened by the fact that this filth is targeted at black women. I have a feeling that black women generally (but not all, of course) would be more susceptible to these ideas. There seems to be an a fairly strong sentiment among many black women that they need to stand by “their” men, as though they are disgracing themselves and their heritage by dating outside of their race. I have several times seen reference to the shrinking number of black men due to incarceration and consequently a shrinking dating pool, the implication always seeming to be that women have little choice but to date in this pool. Furthermore, there is the specter of single motherhood looming over black women. I fear that the expectation that black women date black men and the fear of scarcity of good black men will cause the women who identify with these issues the most to buy into these horrid ideas for fear of ending up alone otherwise.

*sigh*

Paging the white savior – the Negro women need your guidance!

Comments like that one just make me weary when dealing in feminist circles because they embody the assumptions that take place around communities of color. The person making this comment appears to have a very small amount of knowledge about the black community and our struggles, which that person then creates a full scenario from small bits of knowledge, ending in the flawed conclusion. Oh, these poor weak minded black women with their silly notions of racial preferences in dating – especially in their situation!

And there are more where that came from:

This is the kind of literature that is marketed to the Black community? No wonder there is an growing trend of internalized racism and adoption of oppression especially with Black females. At one point they are told that their sexuality is not only taboo but also animalistic and dangerous and now they have moved into full-on exploitation and submission because men command it. [...]

And my favorite:

More fodder for the “thug life” culture!

Awesome!!!

*snark snark*

Thug life culture? There are black people on the cover and it suddenly equates to Thug Life? WTF?

Oh, and I can’t forget this gem:

[...] Let’s face it ladies, there is the “what is” and the “what should be” — and the former (patriarchy) is the norm … not “gender-equality”. In the black community, patriarchy is even more expected, acceptable, than in less patriarchial, more feminist-educated, communities. Few black women prescribe to dutch dating or reciprocating taking a guy out. And because there is so much racism, poverty, and lack of feminist education in poor and low income communities, one can expect lots of testosterone males and women who love them — including “thugs”. [...]

Around the time the first comment I quoted dropped, I sent an email around to some of my girls with this ridiculousness. M. Dot was motivated enough to go into the thread AND to write a blog post on it. But luckily, some other folks decided to call out the bullshit:

What bothers me is the unanswered (anywhere in the article) question of just why the Washington Post dedicated time and space to a signing in a basement in Cherry Hill, NJ.

There are plenty of good books by black men. Are any of them getting this kind of coverage?

So why focus on this book in order to conclude that, “Maybe feminism is dead. Or maybe women are just humoring Moore (and men everywhere), reading his book and others for a good laugh.”

I’m not saying this book isn’t ridiculous (because, yeah, clearly it is). But again, a black man writes an anti-feminist book and it gets negative press coverage.

Meanwhile, the author cites Greg Behrendt as another example of these “unvarnished ilk,” and if you click on the linked name, you get to a sympathetic article in which Behrendt is quotes as an expert on relationships.

So, yeah, stupid book and stupid author, but I question the effect of it being covered as it is in the Wash. Post, and I wonder what it says about this blog–which doesn’t generally cover the works of black authors–when it holds this one black man up as an example of antifeminism even as white feminists have spent a ridiculous amount of time insisting that black women aren’t doing enough to distance themselves from these very men and, in so doing, somehow qualify as “good feminists.”

Posted by Miriam Heddy

[...] This book is symptomatic of patriarchy, nothing more nothing less. It isn’t any more or less pathological or dysfunctional than the dominant white mainstream narratives we see on TV and in the movies.

It may be more crass and upfront, but its message appears to be the same. “Shut up, make me a sandwich and don’t get fat”. [...]

Posted by M. Dot

“There seems to be an a fairly strong sentiment among many black women that they need to stand by ‘their’ men…”

Tammy Wynette, Phyllis Schlafly and Laura “The Surrendered Wife” Doyle are black? Well, damn, Allegra, I never knew.

Posted by Violet

“There seems to be an a fairly strong sentiment among many black women that they need to stand by ‘their’ men…”

Can someone tell me how strong this sentiment is? And where? And from who? And did somehow Black women invent this? I keep having people who are not Black and female like I am tell me that this is apparently the law of my community. I would like to know how I have missed it. Or even better yet, the historical reasons why people who do feel that way might actually do so.

In general I would really like to know why so many so-called feminists, can eagerly ignore Black women’s criticisms of mainstream white feminism, or completely ignore women of color feminism in general, but can go out of their way to ponder this sort of bullshit when presented by the mainstream media?

Never mind. I have a migraine from this foolishness already.

Posted by Delux

Jezebel, which discussed the same topic, had a much more nauanced take on the entire subject – multiracial mocking ensued. When a comment was posted that could be interpreted a couple different ways, the commenters there did something shocking – discussed the concept of racist statements like adults:

briardahl at 01:45 PM on 08/28/08

Reply by Email

@BeckySharper: I didn’t say it was racist, Becky; I said:

- I dislike the casualness of the mental leap from one example of a man to the whole of black men in particular (and not, say, men who write books, men from Washington, or men who wear pleated pants)
- I think if you want to suggest that this guy’s mentality is common among black men and specific to black men, you should argue that point directly and seriously, and not just loosely suggest it’s the case
- I dislike the built-in assumption there that black women’s dating options are necessarily limited to black men

There is some light back and forth in the comments about racist assumptions and statements, and in the end, everyone was clear that (1) the comment in question could be interpreted in a few ways (instead of some of the blatantly racist comments on Feministing) and (2) that one book, from one author, cannot stand in for the black community as a whole.

Simple right?

And yet, for some reason, that logic can sometimes escape people who have to work with different communities. They lose sight of the fact that many problems, at their core, are the same – just different communities add their own twist to the mix. The line of thinking becomes “this issue is strange and unique to this community,” not “this community has a unique manifestation of the same issue.”

Now, funnily enough, I was researching an article on the messages presented to men and women in the context of dating guides about a year ago.

I came across a lot of books – spanning across communities – that had me wondering how the hell this stuff got published.

Now, there were books marketed toward black readers:

Books geared toward white readers:

And books that made me think “If blacks have to take credit for the ignorant musings of Dante Moore, what is the explanation for this shit?”:

I mean seriously.

And before I forget…

And will someone please explain Mystery?

This is all you, white folks… I see your black pathology and raise you a Pick Up Artist.

(This video is Mystery describing his method. Dating is just like a video game, y’all. Input = output.)

All joking aside, crappy dating guides are not specific to any one community.

Neither are sexist dating guides.

Neither are dating guides that encourage women to know their place.

And all the racist assumptions that tend to crop up in these conversations just serve to distract from the real purpose of these discussions – debunking the sexism and laughing at the fresh serving of ignorance.

—

Yeah You – N.E.R.D (from the Seeing Sounds album)

[A couple asides on this post.

(1) Most of these guides were more amusing than anything else. The Sexy Bitch one was particularly enjoyable.

(2) I've read well over 100 dating guides - thank goodness for booksfree.com & libraries - and one of the best ones I've ever read came from a place I never saw coming. It's called The Player's Handbook, by Heidi Fleiss. It's 123 illustrated pages that somehow, make more sense and encourage more women to have self-esteem than most of the other books I read by "dating experts" with more credentials. Go figure.

(3) I stayed specifically with the discussion of black communities and white communities with dating books because books geared toward folks outside of the black/white binary tend to be fetish guides. (Think: "How to date a white man," "Sex secrets from the middle east," "Dating Asian Women.")

Sample text :

Asians are very different from Occidentals! And there are different types of Asians based on where they were born and raised. Each Asian group will have their own cultural traits and perspective on life. However, after reading this book, you will find that most Asians can actually be quite predictable.

Yeah, I left that alone for my own sanity. Maybe for another article... - LDP]

Tagged as: Dating

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This article was written by latoya

latoya has written 21 posts for Feministe.

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POLL: Do Black Women Need To Be Re-Educated? | Alphanista™: 7.6.2009 at 10:04 am

{ 26 comments }

1 Rachelle 9.3.2008 at 8:53 am: “If blacks have to take credit for the ignorant musings of Dante Moore, what is the explanation for this shit?”

Thank you so much for writing about this! So true and hilarious. I don’t want to take credit for any of that “shit”!
2 norbizness 9.3.2008 at 9:01 am: So what you’re saying is we win the Pathology Sweepstakes? AWESOME!

BTW, I am officially old. I thought the Pick-Up Artist youtube would have lead to a clip from the 1987 movie starring Molly Ringwald and a pre-Iron Robert Downey, Jr.
3 Natalia 9.3.2008 at 9:32 am: This was a great post. Thank you so much.
4 Kristin 9.3.2008 at 9:57 am: “And books that made me think “If blacks have to take credit for the ignorant musings of Dante Moore, what is the explanation for this shit?””

A-fucking-men! Thanks so much for this!

“I see your black pathology and raise you a Pick Up Artist.”

HAH!!! You are awesome.
5 Ico 9.3.2008 at 9:58 am: Truly an awesome post. Thanks for writing this!

Also, ROFL at the Asian dating guide! OMG, it sounds like a National Geographic special on the peculiar habits of animal species. Jeez… And it’s lovely how Asians are lumped into one group.

Comments like the ones you posted are the reason I don’t read Feministing. Their moderators shouldn’t tolerate it. I imagine that if there were a whole bunch of sexist comments coming from folks w/ male privilege, they’d be shut down fairly quickly. Glad to see some folks did call them out on it.
6 miffedkit 9.3.2008 at 10:16 am: When a white man says or does something sexist, people say that it’s because he’s a man. When a black man does it, people say it’s because he’s a BLACK man. It strikes me that there’s a significant element of racism there and that women, black or white, are discouraged from commenting on it because the men in question did something that wasn’t consistent with feminist values.

White men have been responsible for more than their share of “get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich” books. Sadly, though, the group that seems to write the most “get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich”-style articles/books/blogs are white women.
7 Melissa 9.3.2008 at 10:23 am: I’m so glad you wrote this. It seems common for “respected publications” to emphasize the more ridiculous examples of minorities as a subtle form of bigotry. (“What?!? Fox News says a black man in Texas claims the word ‘black hole’ is racist?!? Cue the condescending white anger!”) Well, at least subtle enough so that clueless white/male/able-bodied/wealthy/etc people typically don’t realize what’s happening. Seriously, why was this an article in the Washington Post?

And seriously, pointing out Dr Laura really hits home your point. That’s beautiful.
8 Rachelle 9.3.2008 at 10:38 am: Okay, I’ve looked into these books more and they are more disgusting than I ever realized. “Make him a sandwhich” has become “Let him abuse you”. Depandi’s ‘Think Like A Man’ compares dating women to killing and cutting up deer.
9 m.dot 9.3.2008 at 11:02 am: Latoya,

Thank you for the link.

You are so write about the pathologizing that takes place
when it comes to a “Black” men being patriarchal.

Your argument hit the nail on the head.

While browsing all those book covers I realized that there
is a “dating industrial complex” across ethnicities.

Despicable.
10 Natalia 9.3.2008 at 11:20 am: When a white man says or does something sexist, people say that it’s because he’s a man. When a black man does it, people say it’s because he’s a BLACK man.

That is SO true.
11 Mireille 9.3.2008 at 12:04 pm: That was awesome. Geez, now I have to add another blog to my regular reads. The Feministe guest blogger program is awesome, but it’s going to leave me with no time for anything but reading blogs all day!
12 DaisyDeadhead 9.3.2008 at 12:12 pm: Yeah Latoya, don’t quite know what to say, when I just discussed Tammy Wynette in this very space LAST WEEK!

Seriously, the “Stand by your Man” sentiment is strong, strong, strong in southern and Appalachian culture… I thought WE were the most pathologically oppressed wimmen of all? Well, damn.

And single-women’s pregnancies? Like, you know, the VP nominee’s WHITE kid? Ohhhhh Jesus Christ. Don’t even get me started.

When you force a pregnant woman to get married, they are no longer counted as “single” even if they (like me) were pregnant when they got married. The cultural phenomenon is therefore: whites forcing/coercing marriage, whereas African-American people seem far less inclined to do this.

Let’s talk about THAT!

I am certain the stats would be similar, if you count in all those BIG bridal gowns. Really.
13 Renee 9.3.2008 at 12:27 pm: This is the kind of literature that is marketed to the Black community? No wonder there is an growing trend of internalized racism and adoption of oppression especially with Black females.

It is commentary like this, that causes me to get angry at so called feminist spaces sometimes. I would like to know how this person is an expert on what is in the minds of black women to make such a universalizing statement. That they cannot see that this statement is loaded with privilege is unbelievable. I hope that whoever this person is they think about signing up for the courses you offer at Racialicious.
14 Sweet Machine 9.3.2008 at 1:16 pm: They lose sight of the fact that many problems, at their core, are the same – just different communities add their own twist to the mix. The line of thinking becomes “this issue is strange and unique to this community,” not “this community has a unique manifestation of the same issue.”

Thank you for such a perfect analysis of a certain type of privilege-blind comment (the kind, I might add, that is often followed by a “fine, I won’t talk about [X community] EVER then!”.
15 Farhat 9.3.2008 at 1:48 pm: When you force a pregnant woman to get married, they are no longer counted as “single” even if they (like me) were pregnant when they got married. The cultural phenomenon is therefore: whites forcing/coercing marriage, whereas African-American people seem far less inclined to do this.

The sucky part about this is also that when a woman wants marriage but the guy doesn’t instead of talking over it and coming to a resolution a way out is seen as getting pregnant and letting the culture pressure the guy into a marriage he may not want.
16 s 9.3.2008 at 2:02 pm: ‘The proper care and feed of husbands’ ?wtf?

They’re now house pets or something?

craziness
17 Medea 9.3.2008 at 2:13 pm: Wonderful post. I wish the Feministing contributors would at least respond to racist comments, if they don’t want to moderate heavily. Let in one, analyze it, give a warning, then ban?
18 jessilikewhoa 9.3.2008 at 5:33 pm: guh. shit like this is why i can’t read feministing anymore. for the most part i enjoy their bloggers, but the comments seem to be mostly coming from people very new to feminism who dont much grasp that opressions intersect and that its not ok to lump whole groups of people together.

as to anecdote, the majority of the black women ive known have always been far less likely to put up with bullshit than the white girls. i imagine that having to deal with multiple opressions on a daily basis builds strength.

AND (i can’t shut up now that i got going) if black women were so likely to heed this advice and put up with male bullshit, why the fuck would dude have even had to write the book?

if the republicans can declare war on terror (a concept) can we declare war on stupid?
19 Ali 9.3.2008 at 5:43 pm: @Farhat,
WTF? You did not just seriously come into a feminist space and say that women trick men into marriage, did you?
20 Kai 9.3.2008 at 5:51 pm: Wow, Latoya, you’ve read over 100 dating guides?! Jesus, I’m continually amazed by the sheer volume of words you ingest and produce! You’re like Ms. No-Sleep Speed-Reader Super-Writer! A machine! Anyway, excellent post, like every single post you’ve put up here. Always enjoy reading your thoughts. Looking forward to the analysis of all those guides to dating Asians! Hahaha yeah right; that excerpt is priceless (we’re really quite predictable!). Cheers. ;-)
21 Jay Smooth 9.3.2008 at 6:08 pm: Great post.. although you left out one of the true pioneers of this genre, Sharazad Ali :)
22 Entomologista 9.3.2008 at 6:42 pm: I enjoyed this post. When I buy sci-fi books on Amazon, their clever software thinks I am an Asian man who wants to date white women and suggests reading material accordingly.
23 Fatemeh 9.3.2008 at 8:05 pm: I know I already said this on Racialicious, but great job!

“(The “white” that goes before “woman” is silent.)” This is my favorite line! :D
24 denelian 9.3.2008 at 8:57 pm: i probably know a dozen girls who are currently in abusive relationships.

not ONE of those girls is black. every single one is white.

yeah, its only anecdote. but it seems fairly representative, at least n Columbus Ohio.

i blame Jerry Springer and Maury Povovich(sp?) for the way white people – who don’t know black people – see black people
25 aw fisticuffer 9.4.2008 at 7:24 am: Ahaha, nailed it!
26 AMM 9.4.2008 at 11:54 am: I’m probably betraying my utter cluelessness, but when I read the original article, I didn’t catch that the author of the dating guide was African-American. I was picturing sort of a better-dressed Michael Moore signing books in a community college classroom. I totally missed out on the racial aspect. (I don’t recall seeing a book cover — maybe it wasn’t in the post, or maybe the image was blocked by my company’s Network Nanny-ish firewall.)

Anyway, now that I know about it, it does give a much different character to the Washington Post article. Since the Post is written for and from the perspective of the White Male Power Structure, if they had chosen a white male author, we might have thought they were actually making fun of dating guides. That they went to the trouble of seeking out an author from a group that their audience so routinely marginalizes and ignores turns the message into “look at the silly ideas those natives have.” (I.e., they’re not like us.)