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	<title>Comments on: When there is no choice</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/17/when-there-is-no-choice/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/17/when-there-is-no-choice/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:18:49 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: mercurious</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/17/when-there-is-no-choice/#comment-233482</link>
		<dc:creator>mercurious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:39:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9680#comment-233482</guid>
		<description>Hi, I only wish China would treat Tibetan women too with genuine respect and equality. Sadly they do not as apparent from an article which discussed an issue I had not heard of before and wanted to share..it&#039;s a hot topic but with a little patience in reading I learned a lot..here&#039;s the link 

http://tibettruth.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/the-un-concerned-sisterhood/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, I only wish China would treat Tibetan women too with genuine respect and equality. Sadly they do not as apparent from an article which discussed an issue I had not heard of before and wanted to share..it&#8217;s a hot topic but with a little patience in reading I learned a lot..here&#8217;s the link </p>
<p><a href="http://tibettruth.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/the-un-concerned-sisterhood/" rel="nofollow">http://tibettruth.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/the-un-concerned-sisterhood/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Via Jill at Feministe comes the sad news &#8230; [Forced Abortion]</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/17/when-there-is-no-choice/#comment-211995</link>
		<dc:creator>Via Jill at Feministe comes the sad news &#8230; [Forced Abortion]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 23:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9680#comment-211995</guid>
		<description>[...] Jill at Feministe comes the sad news that the Chinese government is attempting to force a woman to end her pregnancy [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Jill at Feministe comes the sad news that the Chinese government is attempting to force a woman to end her pregnancy [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/17/when-there-is-no-choice/#comment-211337</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9680#comment-211337</guid>
		<description>No, it&#039;s the same Matt.  My apologies: if I&#039;m banned I&#039;ll stop posting.  I wouldn&#039;t want to disrupt debate with opposing opinions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, it&#8217;s the same Matt.  My apologies: if I&#8217;m banned I&#8217;ll stop posting.  I wouldn&#8217;t want to disrupt debate with opposing opinions.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/17/when-there-is-no-choice/#comment-211321</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9680#comment-211321</guid>
		<description>Totally Bridgetka! It&#039;s almost like the three days I spent in the hospital being pumped full of drugs, the 8 hours of labor (the baby comes out on it&#039;s own my ass), the week I spent with my breasts wrapped in ace bandages to reduce the swelling because my milk had come in, the six weeks I was supposed to wait before I could have sex again, the lovely month long period that followed, the 3 months I spent on anti-depressants hardly able to function, the dreams were I would wake up looking for the child who wasn&#039;t there  is like a 15 minute out patient procedure with a typical recovery period of 2-3 days. I really wish somebody had been around to explain that to me before!! I can absolutely see how forcing someone to go through that isn&#039;t a total and complete violation of their human rights- hell, they knew when they got pregnant that there would be consequences, right? /snark
And to be clear, I don&#039;t advocate forced vasectomies either. It&#039;s that pesky bodily autonomy thing- either we have it or we don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Totally Bridgetka! It&#8217;s almost like the three days I spent in the hospital being pumped full of drugs, the 8 hours of labor (the baby comes out on it&#8217;s own my ass), the week I spent with my breasts wrapped in ace bandages to reduce the swelling because my milk had come in, the six weeks I was supposed to wait before I could have sex again, the lovely month long period that followed, the 3 months I spent on anti-depressants hardly able to function, the dreams were I would wake up looking for the child who wasn&#8217;t there  is like a 15 minute out patient procedure with a typical recovery period of 2-3 days. I really wish somebody had been around to explain that to me before!! I can absolutely see how forcing someone to go through that isn&#8217;t a total and complete violation of their human rights- hell, they knew when they got pregnant that there would be consequences, right? /snark<br />
And to be clear, I don&#8217;t advocate forced vasectomies either. It&#8217;s that pesky bodily autonomy thing- either we have it or we don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Cara</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/17/when-there-is-no-choice/#comment-211313</link>
		<dc:creator>Cara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:09:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9680#comment-211313</guid>
		<description>Jill, I was wondering the same thing.  I mean, I did ban him.  I think it&#039;s a different Matt, but I&#039;m too lazy to check right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jill, I was wondering the same thing.  I mean, I did ban him.  I think it&#8217;s a different Matt, but I&#8217;m too lazy to check right now.</p>
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		<title>By: Bridgetka</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/17/when-there-is-no-choice/#comment-211312</link>
		<dc:creator>Bridgetka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9680#comment-211312</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Matt&lt;/b&gt;:
&lt;blockquote&gt;I don’t remember ruling out forcing vasectomies on, shall we say… overly reproductive men. That also seems like a viable solution; and almost as unnecessary and invasive a surgical procedure as we’re discussing.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Right, because a vasectomy is totally in the same ballpark as a third trimester abortion. Women have ID&amp;Es on their lunchbreak! Just some lidocaine and a snip of the hemostats and ta-da! 26 weeks of pregnancy never even happened!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Matt</b>:</p>
<blockquote><p>I don’t remember ruling out forcing vasectomies on, shall we say… overly reproductive men. That also seems like a viable solution; and almost as unnecessary and invasive a surgical procedure as we’re discussing.</p></blockquote>
<p>Right, because a vasectomy is totally in the same ballpark as a third trimester abortion. Women have ID&amp;Es on their lunchbreak! Just some lidocaine and a snip of the hemostats and ta-da! 26 weeks of pregnancy never even happened!</p>
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		<title>By: Jill</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/17/when-there-is-no-choice/#comment-211290</link>
		<dc:creator>Jill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 01:04:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9680#comment-211290</guid>
		<description>Cara, will you PLEASE stop stereotyping ALL MEN as wanting to control women&#039;s bodies? It is very offensive. 

[Wasn&#039;t Matt banned?]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cara, will you PLEASE stop stereotyping ALL MEN as wanting to control women&#8217;s bodies? It is very offensive. </p>
<p>[Wasn't Matt banned?]</p>
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		<title>By: Cara</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/17/when-there-is-no-choice/#comment-211282</link>
		<dc:creator>Cara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9680#comment-211282</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Although I might still support tube tying women who have had some number of pregnancies.&lt;/i&gt;

*sputters*

[and for the record, no I do not support forcible vasectomies either.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Although I might still support tube tying women who have had some number of pregnancies.</i></p>
<p>*sputters*</p>
<p>[and for the record, no I do not support forcible vasectomies either.]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/17/when-there-is-no-choice/#comment-211269</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9680#comment-211269</guid>
		<description>A very reasonable opinion.  Although I might still support tube tying women who have had some number of pregnancies.  I see no reason to place ALL the responsibility with men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very reasonable opinion.  Although I might still support tube tying women who have had some number of pregnancies.  I see no reason to place ALL the responsibility with men.</p>
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		<title>By: Alara Rogers</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/17/when-there-is-no-choice/#comment-211240</link>
		<dc:creator>Alara Rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9680#comment-211240</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Specifically, is avoiding large overpopulation a good enough excuse to control reproduction. &lt;/i&gt;

No. Because &quot;avoiding&quot; a problem means the problem hasn&#039;t occurred yet, and if it hasn&#039;t occurred yet, you should try less draconian, but tried-and-true, strategies.

Only if the population explosion has *already* happened can you control reproduction, ethically. And it is still ethically wrong to abort wanted pregnancies, even then, *and* to place a disproportionate burden of pop.control on women. Last I checked, women cannot knock themselves up.

An iron clad policy of vasectomizing every man who has had two children would be both more merciful than forcing abortions (quite aside from the emotional impact of forced abortion, it is much easier to vasectomize a man than to sterilize a woman), and would bring enormous social pressures to bear on women that would prevent them from becoming pregnant again even if they did *nothing* legally to prevent it. Specifically, if a man is vasectomized and his wife gets pregnant... she will quietly get an abortion as soon as she finds out, without telling him, otherwise he will think she cheated on him.

Sure, some women might go through the male population as serial moms, dating men who have not had their quota of kids, getting pregnant, and thus having multiple children legally. But the whole *problem* with China is that women mostly do not have the freedom to do that. If women had the freedom to raise five kids by themselves, each with a different father, being freely sexual with any man they choose... Chinese women wouldn&#039;t be aborting their baby girls or abandoning them in orphanages, and most likely, the majority of Chinese women wouldn&#039;t be having more than 1 or 2 kids. When women have the freedom to make a life as a single mother with a minimum of stigma, with their children cared for, then women also have the freedom to choose not to be mothers at all, and a lot of women will take that choice if they can.

Now, morally I don&#039;t like restricting men any better than I like restricting women, so in an ideal world, either you restrict neither and rely on incentives to get people to do what you want, or you restrict both. What makes *no* sense is restricting women but not men. The operation to vasectomize a man is easy, more reversible than tying a woman&#039;s tubes, has fewer complications, is cheaper than long-term birth control, doesn&#039;t cause the death of a wanted baby, doesn&#039;t force major physical surgery or hormonal shifts on anyone, and once he&#039;s vasectomized you can count on the sexism of the society and the patriarchal nature of it and male jealousy to keep the woman he&#039;s partnered with from having more kids than he can father. Restricting women, but not men, is not based on a model of effective pop. control; it&#039;s based on a model of punishing women for being able to have babies. 

So here&#039;s my opinion: when your population explosion is already running away with itself to a dangerous extent, *then* you may implement population control techniques, but you should do so in a way that seeks to be fair, egalitarian, safe for people, and effective, so prevention of pregnancy is *still* better than forced abortion. You may not implement pop. control techniques *before* the explosion happens... in the 1960&#039;s everyone thought we were headed for a population explosion too, and then the second and third waves of feminism happened, and now American right-wingers whine about demographic winter and the coming extinction of the Europeans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Specifically, is avoiding large overpopulation a good enough excuse to control reproduction. </i></p>
<p>No. Because &#8220;avoiding&#8221; a problem means the problem hasn&#8217;t occurred yet, and if it hasn&#8217;t occurred yet, you should try less draconian, but tried-and-true, strategies.</p>
<p>Only if the population explosion has *already* happened can you control reproduction, ethically. And it is still ethically wrong to abort wanted pregnancies, even then, *and* to place a disproportionate burden of pop.control on women. Last I checked, women cannot knock themselves up.</p>
<p>An iron clad policy of vasectomizing every man who has had two children would be both more merciful than forcing abortions (quite aside from the emotional impact of forced abortion, it is much easier to vasectomize a man than to sterilize a woman), and would bring enormous social pressures to bear on women that would prevent them from becoming pregnant again even if they did *nothing* legally to prevent it. Specifically, if a man is vasectomized and his wife gets pregnant&#8230; she will quietly get an abortion as soon as she finds out, without telling him, otherwise he will think she cheated on him.</p>
<p>Sure, some women might go through the male population as serial moms, dating men who have not had their quota of kids, getting pregnant, and thus having multiple children legally. But the whole *problem* with China is that women mostly do not have the freedom to do that. If women had the freedom to raise five kids by themselves, each with a different father, being freely sexual with any man they choose&#8230; Chinese women wouldn&#8217;t be aborting their baby girls or abandoning them in orphanages, and most likely, the majority of Chinese women wouldn&#8217;t be having more than 1 or 2 kids. When women have the freedom to make a life as a single mother with a minimum of stigma, with their children cared for, then women also have the freedom to choose not to be mothers at all, and a lot of women will take that choice if they can.</p>
<p>Now, morally I don&#8217;t like restricting men any better than I like restricting women, so in an ideal world, either you restrict neither and rely on incentives to get people to do what you want, or you restrict both. What makes *no* sense is restricting women but not men. The operation to vasectomize a man is easy, more reversible than tying a woman&#8217;s tubes, has fewer complications, is cheaper than long-term birth control, doesn&#8217;t cause the death of a wanted baby, doesn&#8217;t force major physical surgery or hormonal shifts on anyone, and once he&#8217;s vasectomized you can count on the sexism of the society and the patriarchal nature of it and male jealousy to keep the woman he&#8217;s partnered with from having more kids than he can father. Restricting women, but not men, is not based on a model of effective pop. control; it&#8217;s based on a model of punishing women for being able to have babies. </p>
<p>So here&#8217;s my opinion: when your population explosion is already running away with itself to a dangerous extent, *then* you may implement population control techniques, but you should do so in a way that seeks to be fair, egalitarian, safe for people, and effective, so prevention of pregnancy is *still* better than forced abortion. You may not implement pop. control techniques *before* the explosion happens&#8230; in the 1960&#8242;s everyone thought we were headed for a population explosion too, and then the second and third waves of feminism happened, and now American right-wingers whine about demographic winter and the coming extinction of the Europeans.</p>
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