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	<title>Comments on: We shouldn&#8217;t bail out Detroit the Big Three*</title>
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	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/19/we-shouldnt-bail-out-detroit/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:08:18 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	
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		<title>By: Michelle</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/19/we-shouldnt-bail-out-detroit/#comment-238715</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 00:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9747#comment-238715</guid>
		<description>Just wanted to say that as someone who lives in Detroit and is seeing the byproduct of all these daily layoffs in the city around me (the main one being a HUGE amount of foreclosures due to people getting laid off and not being able to keep up with their mortgages due to that) that Sarah (post #8) dosen&#039;t know what the hell she&#039;s talking about. I&#039;ve never heard of ANYBODY making $50,000 right out of high school---I don&#039;t know who told her that BS--working for the Big 3, you have to have either a degree or least a good 10 or so years&#039; exp. in a trade to even start making that kind of money. Apparently she needs to do some research about how people in the plants are according to the amount of years they&#039;re put in and the level of exp. they&#039;re acquired in their given trade.


People in the auto industries are overpaid? Excuse me, but how about these bank executives who got that $160 million bailout at AIG? If that&#039;s not overpaid,I don&#039;t know what the hell is. And just so Sarah knows, a college degree is just a piece of paper that shows that you have acquired enough credits and studied hard enough to graduate from college---it dosen&#039;t make automatically smarter or better than anyone else who dosen&#039;t have one. It also dosen&#039;t mean that you&#039;re automatically going to get a job in the field you studied in,either. Sarah, who are YOU decide who should be making what according to their level of education? That IS elitist as hell. Just so you know Bill Gates dropped out of college, and he&#039;s one of the richest men on the planet today,so that blows holes in what you said big-time. Bottom line---if the big 3 go under,so does the State of Michigan. Also,a hell of a lot of autoworkers have already seen their wages cut by half and have had to give up their benefits throught the past year. The plants are going down because of the Big 3&#039;s unwillingness to be innovative and change with the times,not because health care costs for workers are too high. SO I guess if your job decided to cut your health benefits off completely just to save themselves, you&#039;d be A-okay with it? I don&#039;t think so. And BTW, SOMEBODY had to put together that car you drive---last time I looked ,cars didn&#039;t make themselves--they HAVE to be built by someone--hello!

BTW, I&#039;m with a group called Moratorium Now Coalition here in Detroit--we&#039;re been fighting for a bill to halt all foreclosures and evictions here in the state of Michigan---Detroit, in fact has the seventh largest foreclosure rate in the country, as well as the highest unemployment rate, so we&#039;re been getting hit with a double whammy here. Anyone who&#039;d like to find out more about what we do can go to our site here:

www.moratorium-mi.org</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just wanted to say that as someone who lives in Detroit and is seeing the byproduct of all these daily layoffs in the city around me (the main one being a HUGE amount of foreclosures due to people getting laid off and not being able to keep up with their mortgages due to that) that Sarah (post #8) dosen&#8217;t know what the hell she&#8217;s talking about. I&#8217;ve never heard of ANYBODY making $50,000 right out of high school&#8212;I don&#8217;t know who told her that BS&#8211;working for the Big 3, you have to have either a degree or least a good 10 or so years&#8217; exp. in a trade to even start making that kind of money. Apparently she needs to do some research about how people in the plants are according to the amount of years they&#8217;re put in and the level of exp. they&#8217;re acquired in their given trade.</p>
<p>People in the auto industries are overpaid? Excuse me, but how about these bank executives who got that $160 million bailout at AIG? If that&#8217;s not overpaid,I don&#8217;t know what the hell is. And just so Sarah knows, a college degree is just a piece of paper that shows that you have acquired enough credits and studied hard enough to graduate from college&#8212;it dosen&#8217;t make automatically smarter or better than anyone else who dosen&#8217;t have one. It also dosen&#8217;t mean that you&#8217;re automatically going to get a job in the field you studied in,either. Sarah, who are YOU decide who should be making what according to their level of education? That IS elitist as hell. Just so you know Bill Gates dropped out of college, and he&#8217;s one of the richest men on the planet today,so that blows holes in what you said big-time. Bottom line&#8212;if the big 3 go under,so does the State of Michigan. Also,a hell of a lot of autoworkers have already seen their wages cut by half and have had to give up their benefits throught the past year. The plants are going down because of the Big 3&#8217;s unwillingness to be innovative and change with the times,not because health care costs for workers are too high. SO I guess if your job decided to cut your health benefits off completely just to save themselves, you&#8217;d be A-okay with it? I don&#8217;t think so. And BTW, SOMEBODY had to put together that car you drive&#8212;last time I looked ,cars didn&#8217;t make themselves&#8211;they HAVE to be built by someone&#8211;hello!</p>
<p>BTW, I&#8217;m with a group called Moratorium Now Coalition here in Detroit&#8211;we&#8217;re been fighting for a bill to halt all foreclosures and evictions here in the state of Michigan&#8212;Detroit, in fact has the seventh largest foreclosure rate in the country, as well as the highest unemployment rate, so we&#8217;re been getting hit with a double whammy here. Anyone who&#8217;d like to find out more about what we do can go to our site here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.moratorium-mi.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.moratorium-mi.org</a></p>
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		<title>By: Sasha Talley</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/19/we-shouldnt-bail-out-detroit/#comment-219309</link>
		<dc:creator>Sasha Talley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9747#comment-219309</guid>
		<description>I got tired of struggling, and I resorted to begging for help online. And got help keeping my lights on and groceries to get us through the month. The goverment doesn&#039;t care about us. How else is we to survive. Begging worked for me and I&#039;m not ashamed. This site im grateful to have found http://www.bailafamilyout.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got tired of struggling, and I resorted to begging for help online. And got help keeping my lights on and groceries to get us through the month. The goverment doesn&#8217;t care about us. How else is we to survive. Begging worked for me and I&#8217;m not ashamed. This site im grateful to have found <a href="http://www.bailafamilyout.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.bailafamilyout.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jody DeVere</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/19/we-shouldnt-bail-out-detroit/#comment-215308</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody DeVere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 17:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9747#comment-215308</guid>
		<description>Did you take the time to watch the Senate and Congressional hearings?

So many untruths circulating about UAW wages and benefits, GM, Ford and Chrysler - If people took the time like I did to watch the Senate and Congressional hearings many of these MYTHS were de-bunked. Knowledge and Truth and Doing Your Homework to be informed about the issue would help the American people support OUR Detroit auto makers, dealers and suppliers!

Check out my recent post on today&#039;s developing story on the auto industry bail out:

http://askpatty.typepad.com/ask_patty_/2008/12/good-news-this-morning-dems-agree-to-auto-industry-bailout.html

Jody DeVere
CEO/President - Ask Patty, Inc.
www.askpatty.com
www.carblabber.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you take the time to watch the Senate and Congressional hearings?</p>
<p>So many untruths circulating about UAW wages and benefits, GM, Ford and Chrysler &#8211; If people took the time like I did to watch the Senate and Congressional hearings many of these MYTHS were de-bunked. Knowledge and Truth and Doing Your Homework to be informed about the issue would help the American people support OUR Detroit auto makers, dealers and suppliers!</p>
<p>Check out my recent post on today&#8217;s developing story on the auto industry bail out:</p>
<p><a href="http://askpatty.typepad.com/ask_patty_/2008/12/good-news-this-morning-dems-agree-to-auto-industry-bailout.html" rel="nofollow">http://askpatty.typepad.com/ask_patty_/2008/12/good-news-this-morning-dems-agree-to-auto-industry-bailout.html</a></p>
<p>Jody DeVere<br />
CEO/President &#8211; Ask Patty, Inc.<br />
<a href="http://www.askpatty.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.askpatty.com</a><br />
<a href="http://www.carblabber.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.carblabber.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lauren</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/19/we-shouldnt-bail-out-detroit/#comment-213566</link>
		<dc:creator>Lauren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 02:47:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9747#comment-213566</guid>
		<description>Steve totally got sonned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve totally got sonned.</p>
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		<title>By: spacedcowgirl</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/19/we-shouldnt-bail-out-detroit/#comment-212295</link>
		<dc:creator>spacedcowgirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9747#comment-212295</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been hearing segment after segment on NPR over the past week licking the butt of Tesla Motors--Ira Flatow on Talk of the Nation Science Friday kicked off his segment by saying that &quot;many people&quot; (given his enthusiasm and the fact that I had never heard that proposed before, I think &quot;many people&quot; meant &quot;Ira Flatow&quot;) thought that the $25B should just be given to startups like Tesla to give them a leg up in the market and encourage innovation. My first reaction was outrage--because, yeah, that&#039;s going to help the average American family so much when the domestic industry fails, foreign cars now cost $30,000+ and they can&#039;t afford to replace their current one, but hey, Tesla Motors was able to decrease its price point to $70,000 per car (and they are waiting on their final safety/quality certifications and they only have a production capability of 100,000 per year anyway so you&#039;re on a 10-year waiting list or something) so isn&#039;t that &lt;strike&gt;awesome&lt;/strike&gt; totally irrelevant for someone who is worried about putting food on the table and being able to get to work? Putting a cool start-up with a potentially great product on the same par as an established multinational, one of the biggest corporations in the world, that has been making cars for 100 years is just absurd.

I am all in favor of Tesla. Their product sounds awesome. I would like for them to make it so they can get into the mass production phase and get prices down. But I think if the idea is to make the market safer for green innovation (which I think is one of the things GM/Ford/Chrysler, even Toyota and Honda, have been struggling with--it&#039;s not all willful evilness, it would have been pretty risky in many ways for them to start pushing electric cars or super-fuel-efficient models on a consumers who still had cheap gas, viewed their cars as status symbols, and would have changed loyalties pretty quick if they couldn&#039;t get the high-performance gas-guzzlers they wanted) then hopefully there are other things that can be done than letting GM fail and putting our hope in a series of start-ups, some of whom are bound to have bad business models too and/or experience a safety disaster and/or produce products that consumers don&#039;t want. The idea proposed on the segment of putting a lower-limit cap on gas prices to keep up demand for green vehicles would hurt families. The only thing I can think of is the original idea of granting the $25B for green R&amp;D and production. Does anyone who&#039;s smarter than I am have other ideas for pushing fuel-efficiency and/or getting rid of the internal combustion engine without letting the Big 3 fail?

I swear I&#039;m not a shill for the industry and I am as disgusted as anyone else with some of its practices over the years, but we have the Prius and the various Honda hybrids and the Chevy Volt coming out and so on. The industry has been too slow to change, but some good things are happening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been hearing segment after segment on NPR over the past week licking the butt of Tesla Motors&#8211;Ira Flatow on Talk of the Nation Science Friday kicked off his segment by saying that &#8220;many people&#8221; (given his enthusiasm and the fact that I had never heard that proposed before, I think &#8220;many people&#8221; meant &#8220;Ira Flatow&#8221;) thought that the $25B should just be given to startups like Tesla to give them a leg up in the market and encourage innovation. My first reaction was outrage&#8211;because, yeah, that&#8217;s going to help the average American family so much when the domestic industry fails, foreign cars now cost $30,000+ and they can&#8217;t afford to replace their current one, but hey, Tesla Motors was able to decrease its price point to $70,000 per car (and they are waiting on their final safety/quality certifications and they only have a production capability of 100,000 per year anyway so you&#8217;re on a 10-year waiting list or something) so isn&#8217;t that <strike>awesome</strike> totally irrelevant for someone who is worried about putting food on the table and being able to get to work? Putting a cool start-up with a potentially great product on the same par as an established multinational, one of the biggest corporations in the world, that has been making cars for 100 years is just absurd.</p>
<p>I am all in favor of Tesla. Their product sounds awesome. I would like for them to make it so they can get into the mass production phase and get prices down. But I think if the idea is to make the market safer for green innovation (which I think is one of the things GM/Ford/Chrysler, even Toyota and Honda, have been struggling with&#8211;it&#8217;s not all willful evilness, it would have been pretty risky in many ways for them to start pushing electric cars or super-fuel-efficient models on a consumers who still had cheap gas, viewed their cars as status symbols, and would have changed loyalties pretty quick if they couldn&#8217;t get the high-performance gas-guzzlers they wanted) then hopefully there are other things that can be done than letting GM fail and putting our hope in a series of start-ups, some of whom are bound to have bad business models too and/or experience a safety disaster and/or produce products that consumers don&#8217;t want. The idea proposed on the segment of putting a lower-limit cap on gas prices to keep up demand for green vehicles would hurt families. The only thing I can think of is the original idea of granting the $25B for green R&amp;D and production. Does anyone who&#8217;s smarter than I am have other ideas for pushing fuel-efficiency and/or getting rid of the internal combustion engine without letting the Big 3 fail?</p>
<p>I swear I&#8217;m not a shill for the industry and I am as disgusted as anyone else with some of its practices over the years, but we have the Prius and the various Honda hybrids and the Chevy Volt coming out and so on. The industry has been too slow to change, but some good things are happening.</p>
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		<title>By: CartoonCoyote</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/19/we-shouldnt-bail-out-detroit/#comment-212279</link>
		<dc:creator>CartoonCoyote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9747#comment-212279</guid>
		<description>Steve@83: Then you definitely &lt;i&gt;don&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; get the ramifications of bankruptcy for corporations of that size and with that many links to the rest of the economy. Econ101 only takes you so far, son.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve@83: Then you definitely <i>don&#8217;t</i> get the ramifications of bankruptcy for corporations of that size and with that many links to the rest of the economy. Econ101 only takes you so far, son.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/19/we-shouldnt-bail-out-detroit/#comment-212032</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 02:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9747#comment-212032</guid>
		<description>Bankruptcy does not mean that these companies will go out of business.  Bankruptcy will require that they restructure.  They will emerge from a bankruptcy as businesses better able to compete.  Throwing money after them only puts off the inevitable.  No bailout.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bankruptcy does not mean that these companies will go out of business.  Bankruptcy will require that they restructure.  They will emerge from a bankruptcy as businesses better able to compete.  Throwing money after them only puts off the inevitable.  No bailout.</p>
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		<title>By: CartoonCoyote</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/19/we-shouldnt-bail-out-detroit/#comment-211973</link>
		<dc:creator>CartoonCoyote</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9747#comment-211973</guid>
		<description>EconBoy@74: Spoken like a fresh-outta-college Ayn Rand fan, with neither a heart, nor a mortgage to pay.

To add to Lauren@77 re: new tech, our plant expects to be turning out electric minivans by 2010. Change is happening slowly, but it IS happening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EconBoy@74: Spoken like a fresh-outta-college Ayn Rand fan, with neither a heart, nor a mortgage to pay.</p>
<p>To add to Lauren@77 re: new tech, our plant expects to be turning out electric minivans by 2010. Change is happening slowly, but it IS happening.</p>
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		<title>By: Prose Before Hos</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/19/we-shouldnt-bail-out-detroit/#comment-211893</link>
		<dc:creator>Prose Before Hos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9747#comment-211893</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;The 21st Century Capitalist Pyramid...&lt;/strong&gt;


See Also: Can you resist financial globalization?, Income Distribution Animation, A Modest Proposal, Great News!, What Populism Is Not, We shouldn’t bail out the Big Three, and Bailout Fallout.
Technorati Tags: capitalism,  capitalist pyramid,  mode...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>The 21st Century Capitalist Pyramid&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>See Also: Can you resist financial globalization?, Income Distribution Animation, A Modest Proposal, Great News!, What Populism Is Not, We shouldn’t bail out the Big Three, and Bailout Fallout.<br />
Technorati Tags: capitalism,  capitalist pyramid,  mode&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: aigrl</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/11/19/we-shouldnt-bail-out-detroit/#comment-211855</link>
		<dc:creator>aigrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:17:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=9747#comment-211855</guid>
		<description>What the hell? Coming into this post/thread only to be completely lost because Jill yanked the original post is pretty annoying. Jill, please don&#039;t yank posts just because people disagree with them or you feel it&#039;s a bad post. It&#039;s confusing for the people who come in later in the thread. I really wish you had kept the original post up and put edits in parentheses/brackets to add in what you now think (such as incorporating points other people make that refute what what in your original post).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What the hell? Coming into this post/thread only to be completely lost because Jill yanked the original post is pretty annoying. Jill, please don&#8217;t yank posts just because people disagree with them or you feel it&#8217;s a bad post. It&#8217;s confusing for the people who come in later in the thread. I really wish you had kept the original post up and put edits in parentheses/brackets to add in what you now think (such as incorporating points other people make that refute what what in your original post).</p>
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