http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5459435.ece ->> Last night a Jewish congregation in Helsingborg, in southern Sweden, was attacked by someone who “broke a window and threw in something that was burning,” a police spokesman said. ….In Denmark, a 27-year-old Dane born in Lebanon of Palestinian parents is alleged to have injured two young Israelis last week, opening fire with a handgun…. …including an arson attempt on the Brondesbury Park synagogue in northwest London on Sunday.

And bricks thrown into four synagogues and a school in Chicago on Friday night.

Note that these were all Jews and Jewish institutions in Western countries, not Israeli institutions in Israel.

What excuse and justification will be made for these attackers many of whom have grown up and gotten their Muslim education in Europe and the US?

As far as I know, no Muslim institutions were attacked while Hamas sent rockets into Israel for years.

If pointing these things out is bigotry, so be it.

1. Let’s say that both English-speaking and French-speaking people have come, over many years to live in Quebec.
2. After years of vocal demagoguery and incitement from English-speaking extremists, some of the English-speaking population of Quebec starts attacking and killing the French-speakers.
3. After this goes on for a while, the UN in its wisdom decides to divide Quebec into English-speaking and French-speaking areas, establishing Montreal as a UN-administered enclave.
4. The French-speaking people accept, but the English-speaking people reject the proposal after which the US and the English-speaking people in Canada invade the planned French-speaking part of Quebec.
5. Amazingly, the French-speakers in Quebec beat back the invasion. For a variety of reasons, half of the English-speaking people in Quebec leave.
6. The US and the rest of Canada refuse to accept these English-speakers, who become refugees, mainly in the remaining English-speaking part of Quebec. The English-speakers who didn’t leave the French-speakers’ part of Quebec become citizens of the French-speaking part of Quebec and are treated for a number of years with suspicion and discrimination, which is limited by the legal protections of their citizenship.
7. At the same time, due to discrimination and mistreatment, all of the other French-speakers in Canada, and many from other parts of the world, move to the French-speakers’ part of Quebec.
8. Twenty years later, the US and the English-speakers’ part of Canada decide to finish the job and invade again.
9. Remarkably, the French-speakers, by now having obtained arms from Europe, are again victorious, even managing to occupy (reoccupy?) the English-speakers’ part of Quebec. Some of the French-speakers hail a return to ‘Greater Quebec’ and start living again in areas where they lived before the separation war.
10. After thirty years of degrading treatment, the English-speaker refugees start attacking the French speakers on both sides of the separation line.
11. The French-speakers withdraw from part of the English-speakers’ part of Quebec, forcibly dragging out the French-speakers who had relocated to their former homes in that portion of the English-speakers’ part of Quebec. Not trusting the US or the English-speaking Canadians, the French speakers try unsuccessfully to keep the English-speakers from getting rockets.
12. The English-speakers elect a terrorist organization as their government, and, after about twenty minutes of quiet, the terrorists start shooting ‘homemade’ and Iranian rockets into the part of Quebec to which the French-speakers have withdrawn.
13. Questions: What would you now do if you were a French-speaker? Or if you were an English-speaker in the part of Quebec from which the French-speakers had withdrawn, now governed by the terrorists you have elected? Or if you were the US and the English-speakers’ part of Canada? Would you tell the French-speakers to return Quebec to the English-speaker refugees and go back to their former homes in the English-speaking part of Canada? What would you now do if you were a European looking across the Atlantic Ocean trying to figure out why the English-speakers and the French-speakers can’t just get along? How would you establish a durable peace between the French-speakers and the English-speakers?

Regarding your last point: Yes, of course there are. Knowing how the Israeli Police treat Jewish Israeli demonstrators, I assume that what they do to Israeli Arabs is even more objectionable. Conditions and treatment in Israel’s prisons seems unacceptable. This BBC report raises some sobering issues, particularly the bombing of educational institutions: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7811386.stm

I find that reading the posts here that contain actual information or arguments have moved my thinking on the empathizing — understanding — explaining — excusing – justifying scale for both Palestinians and Israelis. But it seems to me that the people in this discussion who call others names and dismiss their questions or arguments without answering them are not interested in either learning or teaching.

Back to your first point: I certainly get the impression that the education given to Muslims in countries like Britain, France, Egypt, Syria, Pakistan, Iran, and others does not treat non-Muslims well. (So-called, if you prefer) Muslims in England, France, and Belgium have been attacking Jews for years. People from no other religion riot over what newspapers in other countries publish. People from no other religion become suicide bombers. I have heard that there are recent popular Arabic songs that glorify war and martyrdom. Is that true or false? (And yes, I don’t have much distinction in my mind between Muslim and Arab outlooks on other people). A former colleague from Pakistan said that, were Salman Rushdi standing before him, he would shoot him. A big problem to me is that the good guys don’t make nearly as much noise as the bad guys. As far as I know, no national Muslim organization (US or otherwise) ever publicly condemned 911. At the time, NPR carried an interview of a Muslim doctor (I forget in what country) saying that we got what we deserved — and he was trained in Indiana! Seems to me that there are an awful lot of badly-educated (if you prefer, so-called) Muslims.

On the other hand, all of the Muslims I have worked with have been reasonable and friendly people. And the Indian Muslim association in charge of Indian Muslim cemeteries refused to bury the Mumbai terrorists – that was hopeful.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org

http://ifamericansknew.com

Let me flip your question back to you: is there anything that **some Israelis can do to others or to themselves that you won’t excuse? Do you think there is anything they can do for themselves?

**Unlike you, I can comprehend the idea that Israeli society has a veriety of views and beliefs.

It seems to me that where one is on the spectrum of empathizing — understanding — explaining — excusing — justifying is important. Years ago, NPR concluded its report of a Palestinian sniper in Hevron putting a bullet through the head of a three-month-old baby with Hanan Ashwari justifying his actions.

Is there anything that Palestinians can do to others or to themselves that you won’t excuse? Do you think there is anything they can do for themselves?

Seriously, you failed to address this point in the other thread, so I will bring it up here. Why do you expect a group of people living in egregious circumstances to have more forbearance and forgiveness than people who live in some of the most prosperous and comfortable countries in the world?