I just want to let people who might still be interested know that there’s a very interesting conversation going on about some of the issues David was trying to raise at my blog.

I also want to invite people over this post: Maybe We Should Share Our Stories of antisemitism on Alas.

(Will a Jew that has converted to Catholisism be granted “right of return” by the way? This is not meant to be a rethoric question, because I really don’t know the answer, but would like to)

Yes, a Jew that converted to anything is still eligible to immigrate to Israel. The standard is based on Hitler’s definition of a Jew, with the idea, if I understand correctly, that your own personal approach to your Jewish/religious identity may not matter a whole lot as to whether or not you’re subject to persecution as a Jew. The Jewish religious definition of Jewish requires conversion to Judaism or a Jewish mother. So the two are completely unrelated.

Actually, I “would think” (and yes, of course, that is only me thinking and I may be wrong, always) that many Jews around the world will indeed identify with a “Jewish Nation”, and not necessarily be “wrong” in doing so either, as long as we see a “nation”/”people” as not the same thing as a “state”.

I think one of our problems here is exactly how to sort out and define words like “nation” and “people” – not to mention “ethnicity” or “culture” which in themselves are very tricky and elusive words, open to abuse by any racist idiot on this planet! Any categorization of groups of people will be wrong in some contexts and inaccurate in most, and always open to abuse by a various of agendas…

So since context is adamant here: I protested against comparing “British” and “Jewish” by saying that I see these two categories as not on the same level of “people”, in a context where it was said that “The British” have their own country. There *are* those who want to define “British” as an ethnicity, certianly, as a specific “people” originating on the British Isles – or at least having roots there dating from right after the Norman invasion. As opposed to descendants of later immigrants, from the old British Empire or elsewhere. In some contexts this may be meaningful and perhaps not even racist or bad. And defined on this level, you can compare a “British” people to a “Jewish” people if “Jewish” is not taken to define a religious group. But if you define it this way, you cannot say that “The British” have their own country. The “British” defined as a “people” live in a state – The United Kingdom – that does not consist of people of British origin only. They have to share their country with a multitude of other “peoples”, from a mulititude of other “origins”. Some who define themselves as “British” are not willing to do that, and fight for a “pure” Britain (- or, rather, a “pure” England, it seems is the idea, Scotland and Wales be damned, flying the “pure” English flag (red cross on white) and all). Lets hope they never win…

This is why I think you cannot – as I read Tara trying to do – compare the British immigrant laws where everyone with a connection to the British Isles or the countries of the old British Empire, now called the Commonwealth, has the right to a British passport – with the “right of return” for all Jews to Israel. No matter how wide you define “Jews” – all kinds of ethnicities etc. (Will a Jew that has converted to Catholisism be granted “right of return” by the way? This is not meant to be a rethoric question, because I really don’t know the answer, but would like to) – it does not compare to the policies of the UK. Because Israel denies the Palestinian refugees a “right of return” no matter how very very real and recent their connection to Israeli land is, because they are non- Jews. This is not comparable to the British immigration laws.

All that said – I think Tara is right when she says the Jews are not the only people who have created their “own” country. Just recently the Serbs and Croats did just that when they participated in tearing the old Yugoslavia apart, and created Serbia and Bosnia-Hercegovinia for themselves instead. The “One People = One State” ideology is not dead in the world by a long shot, and it wasn’t invented by the Jews.