I did not mean that just because it is not prevalent, then it is not worth striving for. Au contraire. I am only saying the road is long, weary and change in islam not as speedy as that we have seen in Judaism or Christianity.

Words like “secularism”, “reform”, “re-interpretation”, “islamic feminism” are not exactly welcomed with open arms. To put it mildly. Just see how the liberal/moderate muslims or Koran-only muslims or progressive muslims are persecuted everywhere and often called heretics/apostates/Kafirs. Problem.

Also agree with what you rightly pointed out regarding the absence of female interpretators and “scholars”. Problem.

The obvious mismatch between some Koranic verses and many hadiths. Problem.

I don’t argue against that “islamic” feminism in various shapes and forms exists in many muslim countries. It does and is not all that new just more vocal now.

But reinterpreting hadith and removing (assuming this is the case) divine rights from men (mostly) to only be limited to the Prophet, I don’t agree with. This is a longer discussion though. You perhaps view ahadith being seondary but for mainstream majority it is integral, which poses a far critical problem than any of them above. What you see as radical/islamist, is just religion to many. I think its unavoidable that people will interpret as they please. They do. Thats why you have sectarian differences.

There is a power struggle going on. And the struggle must come from within.

But we can go over that some other time as it is timeconsuming indeed.

Interesting talking to you though.

It does open a door, and no, the interpretation is not prevalent. But I am not suggesting that everyone intrepret things as they please. I am suggesting that the Mufti has privilege, and he has an agenda, and neither of those are favorable to women. The direct *Koranic* statements of women’s equality are ignored in favor of the lessor authority of the Hadith. I am suggesting that for this to change, we need more women educated at a high level in fiqh, more women capable of giving legal opinions, etc. The same scene right now is playing out in Orthodox Judaism.

I don’t have time right now, but Islamic feminism is slowly growing in places like Egypt. Yes unfotunatly the radicalization of Islam is setting women back because anything non traditional is seen as Western, and that gets taken out on women’s bodies.

I don’t see why it not being prevalent means that it isn’t potentially a good option to strive for?

I think the reason that one can not read i.e. Aisha’s marriage as meritorious only for the prophet, because as you pressumably know, the prophets sayings and doings are seen as an example. So why deviate?

But even if we did, then this could apply to basically everything in the hadith. It opens a door, where each man or woman could in fact interpret things as they please. There would not be consensus.

The strongest argument just in the case at hand is that no “scholars”, “muftis” or the like have objected to what is happening in KSA. Why not surely if ther are other ways to interpret, this ought to be exploring that? Instead they remain silent because they agree. “Islamic feminism”, is not even acknowledged by mainstram muslims or many “scholars”, who view feminism as something western. You will also find that most will argue polygamy is a divine permission in the Koran. That is the mainstream opinion.

You must admit that the type of interpretation you are striving towards is not exactly common or prevalent.

On a different note, why are you referring to Safiyah as “um”?

Safiyah–um, yeah. You’re totally right. Thanks for citing al-Bukhari. But today this is a system of interpretation. If we wanted to, why couldn’t we read Aisha’s marriage as meritorious only for the Prophet, like we do some of those extra prayers? Or that the caution against polygamy is actually a prohibition, since no one could love and treat all his wives equally, except perhaps Muhammad.

I said it a few months ago on this thread and I’ll say it again: Islamic feminism. Learn it, love it, live it. There is more room in the hadith for interpretation than people think.

This thread refers to girls being sold by their father to a man who is old enough to be their grandfather, where the girls have no say, no choice. The money changes hands from “husband” to father. The girl is then officially stuck in a marriage where she has to entertain her husband sexually and considering the age of the “bride”, 8 years old, this is rape. There are no ifs and buts about this. Rape.

Also nobody is obliged to “tolerate” things such as child brides and the complete and utter loss of rights in such a given situation. The girl can not divorce her husband and her mother has no saying because only mans/husbands/fathers/brothers voice will count. This should be objected and fought with all means possible.

Comparing that with girls who engage in sex with their boyfriends or such, and become pregnant as a result hereof, is not only appalling but outlandish. It is mocking the essence of this thread. Uncomparable. Bizarre. It sounds more like a shift of focus to avoid the ugliness of the fate facing many little girls who should be playing with toys rather than fight in courts to avoid getting raped.

There is a difference between being raped and having unprotected sex with a boyfriend. The difference being choice. But perhaps this is little importance to you. But to most other people this is horrible so people are complaining including the girls, their mothers, the local women rights supporters etc.

Ghulam Dawood, I think, what, you are seemingly missing, is that these clerics/”scholars” are not getting their inspiration from out of thin air or from culture. This is not just some arab costum. They are getting their legitimacy from the highly acknowledged traditions also known as the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad. We are talking about authentic traditions and as you know traditions have inspired/made compulsory to guide man/woman through various of aspects ranging from how to offer your salah (prayer) to the requirement of a guardian in order for a woman to get married. So what are you proposing? That we disregard traditions altogether? Or just the bits that seem disturbing? mind you, what you may find objectionable in light of modern times, is not nessecarily unappealing to many clerics or men in Middleeast, Asia, Africa.

You propose that girls were supposedly more mature in those times than today is unfounded and unsubstantiated. That is just not true. And the traditions surrounding Aisha’s (6) marriage to the prophet Muhammad are clear and widely accepted that she was was playing with dolls and her swing. This does not exactly constitute mental or physical maturity which is required to enter a marriage with a man 5 times her age (53). So this has little to do with macro-economics and vaccinations (?).

Not every muslim male marries or would even consider marrying a child bride. But to “brush it off” as being simply a costum of ancient times with out any relation to religion (in this case Islam), is just not true. By negating the problem will never be dealt with by its roots but simple superficially and the issue will resurface whenever the media picks up on it.

It is worth noting that despite child brides occurring in Saudi Arabia, Afganistan, Yemen etc. you do not hear many clerics or “scholarS” condemn it. Why? Because they know that it is linked to Islam and by not acknowledging it, they would be rejecting something allowed in Islam.

If you are a hadith rejector, then clearly this will have little bearing on you as an individual. But most muslims do believe the traditions/ahadith to be integral to understanding and practsing Islam. Sharia is the way to run the society. The path.

That is why some muslim countries have a legal age of marriage between 6 years and 9 years. Some countries officially have 18 years for the legal age, but child brides are still occurring and the government doesn’t interfere. It is accepted albeit unofficially. It is even happning in the west among muslim communites although not widespread.

Also worth noting is that Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh is not simply a cleric or sheikh, but a Mufti. A Mufti is about as high you can rank as far as religious authority is concerned. This would also strongly imply that the majority of those below him in rank agree. For the same reason you will not find many “scholars” who will argue the age of Aisha and thus the permission of child brides.

Recently, as this thread also deals with, there was the case of an 8 year old girl who was refused divorce from her 40+ husband. The marriage was considered legal in accordance with Sharia. The case recieved much attention (internationally and from human rights organisations but not once from any muslims or clerics who sought to object to it or in any other way communicate their thoughts on the matter). The case was settle recently but no in court. Out of court and pressumably by some sort of payment for her freedom.

So child brides in muslims communities are not a cultural thing only, but in fact religiously sanctioned. That is also why the voices of human rights workers and lawyers are conveniently overheard. That is why this will not be the first nor the last case. It is based on islamic traditions (also listed above) not culture.

It is unclear how or why you would bring up the topic of HIV into the matter of child brides. But HIV also occurs in muslim communities but the difference is that in the West you would have access to sexual education and information and protection. But this does not really explain the occurance of child brides which is the topic at hand.

The issue here isn’t about what is wrong with Saudi Arabias past, but how its people retain their identity while progressing into their very sudden (and probably frightening) future. Note that the details and considerations of the judgement are not given and that the personal circumstances are considered inconsequential. I’d agree if it was 21st century America. Yet for an orphan in the desert, the circumstances are hardly the same. No society is going to allow judges to exist that will undermine its interests. Lets not forget either that Muslim societies see the least amount of HIV infections in the developing world.

But there are reasons why in some muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia that child brides is allowed. There is also a reason behind the lack of outrage from other muslim countries in terms of scholarly condemnation or appeals against such laws. The root of this issue comes from hadith, which is not secondary to the Quran but considered integral. It is not a matter of choice. If you examine how muslims who for instance reject the entire notion of hadith basing their faith solely on the Quran (the conflict between Divine and non-divine sources) are percieved, treated and dismissed as being outside the fold of Islam, the importance of hadiths (Sunnah) becomes evident.

Hadiths are divided into many catagories. Some are strong (“Authentic”) leaving no room for dispute or evasion, while others are weak but weak does not mean they can not be applied. It is a longer discussion. Bottomline is that there is a consensus on that muslims are to follow the Sunnah and the Sunnah is basically percieved to be the traditions of the prophet Muhammad. It is what he did or said in different situations. He is the best role model. But many hadiths in particular those strong, are considered depending on the issue, compulsory. This applies to the method of praying, the method of washing (wudu), how to get married, conscent, marital and intimate relations, the method of applying punishments like stoning for adultery etc.

The hadith supporting and establishing Aisha’s age are of strong catagory. Their validity can not be denied without questioning every other sound hadith as well. This would clearly be inconvenient and less favoured for several reasons.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated ‘Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated ‘Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).” what you know of the Quran (by heart)’

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated ‘Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
Narrated Hisham’s father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

The hadiths supporting the age of Aisha as being 6 at the time of marriage and 9 when the consummation took place are many and considered authentic. Ther are not many bursts of outrage og the muslims countries calling for banning such practice as that in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Afganistan etc where the legal age is 9 or less. This is of course unfortunate but also highlights the issue of silent consent by mainstream “scholars” and experts and the reason underlying their predicament is evi´dent. This is why such practices are upheld. The struggle must come from within but when something is percieved to be prophetic traditition then it is not as easy.

So although many muslims do object to such a practice calling it outdated and no longer applicable or even doubting its validity, the question remains. If one specific issue is to be questioned and the tradition rejected then this will open the gates to other traditions being questioned as well and then what is left. You could say this is also a problem relating to power nd control of the majority.