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	<title>Comments on: So I know we&#8217;re all tired of talking about Rick Warren&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/25/so-i-know-were-all-tired-of-talking-about-rick-warren/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/25/so-i-know-were-all-tired-of-talking-about-rick-warren/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:14:04 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: HH</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/25/so-i-know-were-all-tired-of-talking-about-rick-warren/#comment-231061</link>
		<dc:creator>HH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 08:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=11207#comment-231061</guid>
		<description>Anyone who has ever actually attended Saddleback Church and been lucky enough to listen to Pastor Rick speak about abuse would never question his standing on marriage.  It&#039;s supposed to be forever (how easy it is to ignore the &quot;till death do us part&quot; part), but he specifically notes that abuse of ANY sort is immediate grounds for separation.  Guess what, he also insists that the abused person has to forgive the abuser!  Just as Jesus forgave them.  But again, if you actually listen to more than a sentence or two, you&#039;ll find that he does not believe that forgiveness equals getting back together with an abuser.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone who has ever actually attended Saddleback Church and been lucky enough to listen to Pastor Rick speak about abuse would never question his standing on marriage.  It&#8217;s supposed to be forever (how easy it is to ignore the &#8220;till death do us part&#8221; part), but he specifically notes that abuse of ANY sort is immediate grounds for separation.  Guess what, he also insists that the abused person has to forgive the abuser!  Just as Jesus forgave them.  But again, if you actually listen to more than a sentence or two, you&#8217;ll find that he does not believe that forgiveness equals getting back together with an abuser.</p>
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		<title>By: Domestic Violence Rates Soar in Turkey : The Curvature</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/25/so-i-know-were-all-tired-of-talking-about-rick-warren/#comment-228084</link>
		<dc:creator>Domestic Violence Rates Soar in Turkey : The Curvature</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=11207#comment-228084</guid>
		<description>[...] worth noting, of course, that Islam is hardly the only religion used to promote misogynistic ideas about how women should stay with abusive....  But it should also go without saying that the religious component of the problem can&#8217;t [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] worth noting, of course, that Islam is hardly the only religion used to promote misogynistic ideas about how women should stay with abusive&#8230;.  But it should also go without saying that the religious component of the problem can&#8217;t [...]</p>
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		<title>By: More on Aasiya Hassan &#171; I am the Lizard Queen!</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/25/so-i-know-were-all-tired-of-talking-about-rick-warren/#comment-227642</link>
		<dc:creator>More on Aasiya Hassan &#171; I am the Lizard Queen!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=11207#comment-227642</guid>
		<description>[...] As I&#8217;m not a member of the American Muslim community myself, I don&#8217;t have any idea of how effective this push will be.  Still, I think it&#8217;s well worth the effort, and it&#8217;s the sort of thing I would like to see more of, in a variety of communities.  (It&#8217;s certainly a refreshing change from the teachings of Rick Warren/Saddleback Church&#8230;) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As I&#8217;m not a member of the American Muslim community myself, I don&#8217;t have any idea of how effective this push will be.  Still, I think it&#8217;s well worth the effort, and it&#8217;s the sort of thing I would like to see more of, in a variety of communities.  (It&#8217;s certainly a refreshing change from the teachings of Rick Warren/Saddleback Church&#8230;) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alethea</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/25/so-i-know-were-all-tired-of-talking-about-rick-warren/#comment-223455</link>
		<dc:creator>Alethea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 16:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=11207#comment-223455</guid>
		<description>littleapples: Some scholars believe that the book of Hebrews was written by a woman, possibly Priscilla (a prominent woman in early Christianity). 

DaisyDeadhead: That is fascinating and wonderful! It&#039;s from 1990; I can&#039;t believe I didn&#039;t find that in my own studies, but I&#039;m glad that I know now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>littleapples: Some scholars believe that the book of Hebrews was written by a woman, possibly Priscilla (a prominent woman in early Christianity). </p>
<p>DaisyDeadhead: That is fascinating and wonderful! It&#8217;s from 1990; I can&#8217;t believe I didn&#8217;t find that in my own studies, but I&#8217;m glad that I know now.</p>
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		<title>By: Thealogian</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/25/so-i-know-were-all-tired-of-talking-about-rick-warren/#comment-223439</link>
		<dc:creator>Thealogian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=11207#comment-223439</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a great book on the subject of pastoral counseling (traditional and contemporary) and engaging women in abusive situations. The book is &quot;Proverbs of Ashes&quot; and it was written by two female ministers, one a Methodist (Christian) minister and one a Unitarian Universalist (Post-Christian) minister.

The book explores the history of male dominated pastoral counseling methods, &quot;wisdom,&quot; Bibilical and theological interpretations to support the abused wife as living like Jesus on the cross. Meaning that women should suffer like Jesus--his broken, beaten body on the cross as a model for submission to God/Husband. 

The stance that Brock and Parker take (Rita Nakashima Brock and Rebecca Ann Parker are the ministers/authors) take is that Christ died in a broken beaten state not because it was necessary and ordained by some cruel God, but rather as a consequence of living his life seeking justice for the prostitute, the outcast, the poor. It was not necessary that he die in a bloody pulp (as so many Christianst, see &quot;The Passion of the Christ&quot; for a gross example), but rather that sometimes when you seek justice, when you try to subvert the status quo and unend the hierarchy, good people die so others might stand up. To that end, they argue leaving a violent marriage is following Jesus&#039; example--it is fighting for the lives of the oppressed and it just so happens that in domestic violence, you are the oppressed. So rise up. 

Its better than I just described, but that&#039;s the gist. There&#039;s also some good stuff, honest stuff, about abortion. Brock talks about her abortion in the early 80&#039;s and leaving her own crappy marriage. I think its great when female clergy not only support abortion rights, but talk about their own abortions without shame (though, she does give it shades of gray because she had the abortion in order to appease her asshat husband). So many Christian women would use that as an example as to why abortion is wrong, but Brock just lays it out as more complicated than that. 

The individual stories of abuse are hard to read at times, but the writing is good and I&#039;d recommend it to anyone working with DV victims or at shelters. The fact is, regardless of one&#039;s own belief (I am not a Christian), working with DV victims or recovering prostitutes (which I&#039;ve done) the baggage of bad Christian teachings impact recovery work and if you can get the language and learn how to argue for other ways to look at &quot;traditional&quot; Christian teachings, it will help you and your clients in your work. Quite frankly, no matter your religion, we live in a country (those readers in the US) where Christianity is the presumed religion and most of us are at least aware of basic tenets of that faith. We&#039;re already, in a way, fluent, so when you can help believers go from a down-right destructive view (suffer wives, like Jesus) to a more productive view (fight for justice, women) then you&#039;ve made a dent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a great book on the subject of pastoral counseling (traditional and contemporary) and engaging women in abusive situations. The book is &#8220;Proverbs of Ashes&#8221; and it was written by two female ministers, one a Methodist (Christian) minister and one a Unitarian Universalist (Post-Christian) minister.</p>
<p>The book explores the history of male dominated pastoral counseling methods, &#8220;wisdom,&#8221; Bibilical and theological interpretations to support the abused wife as living like Jesus on the cross. Meaning that women should suffer like Jesus&#8211;his broken, beaten body on the cross as a model for submission to God/Husband. </p>
<p>The stance that Brock and Parker take (Rita Nakashima Brock and Rebecca Ann Parker are the ministers/authors) take is that Christ died in a broken beaten state not because it was necessary and ordained by some cruel God, but rather as a consequence of living his life seeking justice for the prostitute, the outcast, the poor. It was not necessary that he die in a bloody pulp (as so many Christianst, see &#8220;The Passion of the Christ&#8221; for a gross example), but rather that sometimes when you seek justice, when you try to subvert the status quo and unend the hierarchy, good people die so others might stand up. To that end, they argue leaving a violent marriage is following Jesus&#8217; example&#8211;it is fighting for the lives of the oppressed and it just so happens that in domestic violence, you are the oppressed. So rise up. </p>
<p>Its better than I just described, but that&#8217;s the gist. There&#8217;s also some good stuff, honest stuff, about abortion. Brock talks about her abortion in the early 80&#8242;s and leaving her own crappy marriage. I think its great when female clergy not only support abortion rights, but talk about their own abortions without shame (though, she does give it shades of gray because she had the abortion in order to appease her asshat husband). So many Christian women would use that as an example as to why abortion is wrong, but Brock just lays it out as more complicated than that. </p>
<p>The individual stories of abuse are hard to read at times, but the writing is good and I&#8217;d recommend it to anyone working with DV victims or at shelters. The fact is, regardless of one&#8217;s own belief (I am not a Christian), working with DV victims or recovering prostitutes (which I&#8217;ve done) the baggage of bad Christian teachings impact recovery work and if you can get the language and learn how to argue for other ways to look at &#8220;traditional&#8221; Christian teachings, it will help you and your clients in your work. Quite frankly, no matter your religion, we live in a country (those readers in the US) where Christianity is the presumed religion and most of us are at least aware of basic tenets of that faith. We&#8217;re already, in a way, fluent, so when you can help believers go from a down-right destructive view (suffer wives, like Jesus) to a more productive view (fight for justice, women) then you&#8217;ve made a dent.</p>
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		<title>By: DaisyDeadhead</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/25/so-i-know-were-all-tired-of-talking-about-rick-warren/#comment-223406</link>
		<dc:creator>DaisyDeadhead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:08:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=11207#comment-223406</guid>
		<description>&quot;And thus, once again, you can’t be religious and believe in the BIBLE, which is WRITTEN BY MAN, and consider yourself a feminist.&quot;

&lt;i&gt;Written by a man?&lt;/i&gt;  I thought everyone knew better by now.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/11/01/specials/bloom-j.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;God Speaks through His Women&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And thus, once again, you can’t be religious and believe in the BIBLE, which is WRITTEN BY MAN, and consider yourself a feminist.&#8221;</p>
<p><i>Written by a man?</i>  I thought everyone knew better by now.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/11/01/specials/bloom-j.html" rel="nofollow">God Speaks through His Women</a></p>
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		<title>By: Luna</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/25/so-i-know-were-all-tired-of-talking-about-rick-warren/#comment-223360</link>
		<dc:creator>Luna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 00:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=11207#comment-223360</guid>
		<description>littleapples:
&lt;i&gt;And thus, once again, you can’t be religious and believe in the BIBLE, which is WRITTEN BY MAN, and consider yourself a feminist.

Period.&lt;/i&gt;

No. Not period. And absolutely NOT true. I really hate it when people tell me I can&#039;t be both. Honestly, where in hell do you get off telling anyone that they aren&#039;t feminist because of their Christianity? 

Jesus taught love, compassion, understanding and justice. He protected a woman from a legal execution by stone because the law was unfair. He told another woman that it was fine for her cousin to sit at his feet learning God&#039;s word instead of doing the &quot;women&#039;s work&quot;. He befriended prostitutes.

I absolutely can believe in his teachings and be a feminist. The two ideologies mesh perfectly. Just because someone takes the Bible and twists it into a validation for their hatred doesn&#039;t mean that there is no value in the stories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>littleapples:<br />
<i>And thus, once again, you can’t be religious and believe in the BIBLE, which is WRITTEN BY MAN, and consider yourself a feminist.</p>
<p>Period.</i></p>
<p>No. Not period. And absolutely NOT true. I really hate it when people tell me I can&#8217;t be both. Honestly, where in hell do you get off telling anyone that they aren&#8217;t feminist because of their Christianity? </p>
<p>Jesus taught love, compassion, understanding and justice. He protected a woman from a legal execution by stone because the law was unfair. He told another woman that it was fine for her cousin to sit at his feet learning God&#8217;s word instead of doing the &#8220;women&#8217;s work&#8221;. He befriended prostitutes.</p>
<p>I absolutely can believe in his teachings and be a feminist. The two ideologies mesh perfectly. Just because someone takes the Bible and twists it into a validation for their hatred doesn&#8217;t mean that there is no value in the stories.</p>
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		<title>By: littleapples</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/25/so-i-know-were-all-tired-of-talking-about-rick-warren/#comment-223267</link>
		<dc:creator>littleapples</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=11207#comment-223267</guid>
		<description>And thus, once again, you can&#039;t be religious and believe in the BIBLE, which is WRITTEN BY MAN, and consider yourself a feminist.

Period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And thus, once again, you can&#8217;t be religious and believe in the BIBLE, which is WRITTEN BY MAN, and consider yourself a feminist.</p>
<p>Period.</p>
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		<title>By: chingona</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/25/so-i-know-were-all-tired-of-talking-about-rick-warren/#comment-223257</link>
		<dc:creator>chingona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 16:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=11207#comment-223257</guid>
		<description>For those who have the stomach for it and/or interest in the subject, Saddleback&#039;s Web site has audio clips in which he answers questions about all sorts of stuff &lt;a href=&quot;http://saddlebackfamily.com/home/bibleqanda/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here.&lt;/a&gt; The abuse clip is number 32. It&#039;s actually worse than I thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those who have the stomach for it and/or interest in the subject, Saddleback&#8217;s Web site has audio clips in which he answers questions about all sorts of stuff <a href="http://saddlebackfamily.com/home/bibleqanda/index.html" rel="nofollow">here.</a> The abuse clip is number 32. It&#8217;s actually worse than I thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristen (The J one)</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/01/25/so-i-know-were-all-tired-of-talking-about-rick-warren/#comment-223249</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristen (The J one)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=11207#comment-223249</guid>
		<description>Eh...Warren is an evangelical...which means he believes in biblicism, as in strict adherence to biblical &quot;law&quot;.  I wouldn&#039;t be surprised if his sermons often referred to women obeying, submitting, and walking behind their husband.  Universe knows I heard enough of that batshit crazy ideology when I went to those churches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eh&#8230;Warren is an evangelical&#8230;which means he believes in biblicism, as in strict adherence to biblical &#8220;law&#8221;.  I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if his sermons often referred to women obeying, submitting, and walking behind their husband.  Universe knows I heard enough of that batshit crazy ideology when I went to those churches.</p>
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