A really, really great article up at AlterNet about the difficulties women face in discussing abortion with their male partners — especially when the women don’t exhibit the socially acceptable post-abortion feelings of regret or woundedness. I’m also pretty sure I went on a few dates with the same wide-eyed Sarah Lawrence grad MFA candidate as the author.
She talks about how her abortion wasn’t emotionally scarring, and how she dealt with it in the same way she deals with most of crap life throws at all of us: By joking about it or being straight-forward. She writes:
I honed my improbable pregnancy and ensuing abortion into a kvetching monologue about life’s little inequities — I get pregnant on birth control, while teenagers in Utah practicing the pray-to-God-and-please-come-on-my-ass method remain distinctly un-knocked-up? It’s not like I broadcasted my uterine news to co-workers, distant cousins, or Facebook cronies. It was simply something that happened to me, and I shared it with my friends like I would’ve shared any other story. It would have felt wrong not to. My female friends laughed when I laughed, commiserated when I needed it and treated the procedure as lightheartedly as I did. That’s all I wanted. To be able to define my own experience, not the other way around.
But there was a palpable discomfort when I had the same conversation with men. For the guys I was dating, the idea of a vacuum-like apparatus being the last visitor in my vagina was more troubling than if it had been, say, Stalin’s penis. Even die-hard liberals who would wax on about a woman’s right to choose were downright uncomfortable when actually presented with a woman who chose.
Of course I knew that bringing up abortion was about as fascinating as listening to a nursing-home doctor detail Grandpa’s incontinence problems. Medical procedures are decidedly not sexy. As far as dating went, I operated under a tit-for-tat divulgence basis: you talk ball cancer, I’ll explain my thirty-day long period. If the dreary poet had never asked about surgery, he would have been none the wiser.
Seems like a good enough rule of thumb to me. But somehow when abortion comes up, the author finds herself treated like she’s either victimized or in denial about her own experiences — because she must secretly feel awfully sad and guilty about the whole thing.
I understand that men are in an uncomfortable position when an abortion story is dropped into date conversation. Abortion is socially marked as taboo and horrible and universally emotionally difficult, so I understand why the first reaction is “You poor thing” or “You’re so strong.” I’ve never been in the same position as the author, but I have been on a first date where the guy dropped his almost-abortion story: His girlfriend got pregnant, they decided to terminate the pregnancy, and then she had a miscarriage. It’s not an easy story to respond to, so I fell back on How To Deal With An Awkward Conversation Topic 101: Mirror the other person’s reaction. He seemed like he was sad about the situation, so I think I said something along the lines of, “That sounds like it was really hard, I’m sorry.” And the conversation moved on. I also had a friend who once told me the story of his hugely swollen testicle — like, baseball-sized. In recounting the story, he was cracking himself up, so I laughed along. It’s really not all that hard to take your cues from the person who lived through the unpleasant ordeal. And I think that’s the author’s point: Not that men should universally think abortion is no big deal, but that they should take women as individuals who have varied responses to situations, and who very well may not be traumatized or upset at all — but who may nonetheless be highly annoyed and physically discomforted by a 30-day period. Or they may just be relieved. Or they may be sad, or even devasted. Or they may feel stupid for getting pregnant. Or they may have emotions that are mixed and that evolve. You know, like most human beings.
Predictably, commenters at AlterNet are Very Upset with the writer, because how dare she talk about her abortion in such a flippant way? She gets called all kinds of names, and even self-declared pro-choice commenters feel the need to lecture her about her lack of appropriate sorrow and self-hate, her “vulgar” language, and her loose morals. And then they wonder why she writes under the name “anonymous.”
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For good or ill, men go for women who remind them of their mothers. God knows I have, which has probably led to a lot of misery for all involved. Anyway, men tend to like women who seem nurturing/caring/etc, because that’s how our mothers treated us. Whether this is because of operant conditioning or something more deep-seated I don’t know, but I’m sure it’s true. When a woman is blase about an abortion it comes off as not being “motherly,” because a mom is nurturing and caring and not destructive and emotionless. I’m not defending this, but I think this partly explains guys’ attitudes.
Also, on a more abstract level, you have to distinguish a philosophical or legal position on abortion from a personal or emotional stance on it. It’s perfectly consistent to say that as a principle women ought to have the ultimate say whether to have a kid or not, and at the same time be personally repelled by such a decision. I’m not saying this is the best position, but it’s logically defensible.
Well, sure. But the author is talking about personal date conversation, not political debate. And I also think it’s logically (or at least certainly morally) defensible to say that men who are “personally repelled” by women who have abortions can go fuck themselves.
“Men go for women who remind them of their mothers”?
Um, I blog under my real name and have more than enough drama in my life without rehashing this particular bit . . . but let me just say “let’s sure fucking hope not.”
I don’t think men “go for” women who are like their mothers any more than men “go for” blondes. It would be more accurate to say that men are freaked out by the entire reproductive process beyond the contribution of sperm and the external signs of pregnancy. The fact that men exhibit the same awkwardness towards abortion that they do towards other female-only experiences (menstruation is a big one) is just another sign that society has othered the female experience.
Here’s my thought:
Most people (excluding the religious right) basically accept that fact that the majority of young people will have sex before marriage, and are generally okay with it. Most people also know that even when one uses contraception correctly, there is always going to be a chance of contraception failure and pregnancy. And yet for some reason, when a woman gets pregnant (whether she carries the child to term or has an abortion) she usually faces scorn, ridicule, condescension, etc.. This is something that has always bothered me — why do we say we’re okay with women having sex, but not okay with what will sometimes be the unintended result no matter how careful someone is? Perhaps it’s that the tangible proof of a person’s sexual behavior if a much different thing that being okay with the idea of a person’s sexuality. Maybe that’s related to what’s going on here — men are okay with the theoretical idea that the women around them have been having bunches of sex with other men, but are less comfortable when faced with the stark evidence of it.
“Men” aren’t freaked out by abortion; some men are. I’ve discussed abortion in both abstract and concrete situations, and haven’t been freaked out by it ever; if a potential partner brought up her personal history on a date, I think my response would be much the same as you noted — reasonably supportive and sympathetic to her viewpoint.
And I flatly disagree that men are all seeking to marry their mothers, and that they want a woman who’s nurturing, whatever that means. I know too many childless-and-happy couples to think that’s universal.
Oh, OK. That makes more sense than AlterNet just randomly running someone else’s article, I guess. It just seemed weird to me.
Sounds kind of like the controversy surrounding AFP’s “Oasis.”
Per Stan’s comment, I disagree with the idea that a woman who has an abortion and isn’t freaked out about it must be “destructive and emotionless.” You can have an abortion, not be freaked about it, AND be a warm and caring person.
Caro’s comment is right on.
FYI, I deleted Sady’s comment and others responding to it after receiving an email from the author saying that she is purposely anonymous in the AlterNet piece. I don’t want to blow her anonymity here or direct people to where they can find out who she is, which is why I’m deleting follow-ups.
From Kristen J’s SO:
Well, speaking as a man…the one time I dated a woman who had previously had an abortion, I was more than slightly disturbed for a completely different reason. She said the word abortion and I thought “Oh Shit…this woman I plan to have sex with has previously gotten pregnant” Which momentarily made my brain go into overdrive about the multiple ways she may have gotten pregnant and how that could never possibly happen with us. Right? Right?!? RIGHT?!? That moment of panic didn’t go over well and she thought that I had a problem with the fact that she had chosen to have an abortion. I tried to convince her otherwise, but I wasn’t successful.
More generally, before I met Kristen, I tried to never discuss abortion. Not because it was taboo or evil or whatnot, but because I thought it was in the category of “Things that are none of my damn business”. As in, if a woman makes that choice, it’s completely her choice and I shouldn’t ever have a say in making that choice. [K has subsequently educated me about the fact that it is my business in a social sense because some assholes are always are trying to make women feel bad about it or take away the right.]
Anywho, just the male perspective of someone who has been there.
Good point, Kristen J’s SO… maybe thinking about the fact that a woman has previously gotten pregnant makes men freak out about the potential of impregnating her again? Maybe they just fear that she’s super fertile? :)
Sorry; didn’t realize all the context. I really hate to disrupt someone’s privacy, and it wasn’t intentional. So: sorry! Again! Back on topic!
I haven’t had an abortion, but have taken EC twice within my current relationship (condom malfunctions). Each time, my boyfriend was WAY more upset and thought way more about it than I did, in that “how can we make sure this never, ever happens again” way. The thing is, what he felt was concern for ME, or at least that’s how he expressed it, in spite of the fact that I honestly did not care or get upset. I had to convince him that it wasn’t a big deal for me. Which was odd.
So, one of the things I took away from this article, and from those experiences, was that guys have been socialized to have certain ideas around the mystical motherly ladybits of ladies (and their mystical motherly uses) and have a hard time dealing with it when ladies AREN’T conforming to their ideas (women who’ve had abortions are sad, because everything that goes on in a woman’s uterus is deeply personal and emotional and involves her Maternal Instincts and Biological Clock, etc). If we didn’t mystify uteri and all of the stuff that goes on in them, if we viewed pregnancy as just one more involuntary bodily process that may or may not be convenient or desirable, it might be way more possible to understand that women react to their abortions depending on their circumstances, and that emotion, one way or the other, is not a necessary or universal part of that experience. And we wouldn’t judge women’s “motherliness,” least of all their capacity to care for or about another human being, based on how they felt about one unplanned pregnancy.
hahahahah, most women you have sex with can get pregnant. But I know where you’re coming from, Kristen. We hear so much about infertility that people forget the default is fertile. I’m sort of fascinated by women who have abortions and feel good that they know they can have a baby. Where did we get the idea that infertility is such the norm? I think in part it’s that most people don’t understand the causes of infertility. If they did, then they might have a better idea of their actual risk of it. Most of it comes from undiagnosed STDs that, if caught early, can be treated with antibiotics. So, if you are safe and get tested frequently, then you are probably quite fertile if you want to be.
The reason that most women don’t get pregnant most of the time is because contraception is that effective.
Each time, my boyfriend was WAY more upset and thought way more about it than I did, in that “how can we make sure this never, ever happens again” way.
Yeah, I’ve never dated a man seriously who didn’t have a much more hand-wringing reaction to the mere thought of pregnancy than I did. Not sure why. I think things that are out of your control, no matter how much you know about what’s going to happen, are always more unnerving.
Perhaps I’m misreading what was said, but I’m not entirely sure that they were uncomfortable with being “actually presented a woman who chose.” It isn’t to say that they weren’t uncomfortable because of that, but I’m just unsure as to how one goes from their discomfiture with the subject of an abortion to them being uncomfortable with the idea of a woman having the right to choose.
I know that I would feel uncomfortable with a conversation about abortion, and I’d like to believe that it isn’t because I’m uncomfortable with the idea of women having the ability to make that choice.
Pregnancy is a complete abstraction for men. Sometimes it can be easier to work yourself in to an emotional frenzy over an abstraction.
But that’s not what was said. You’re the one making a leap here. The argument being made is that many men who, in the abstract, do indeed support the right to choose, still feel very uncomfortable when presented with a woman who made the choice they supposedly believe in so strongly.
And the question being asked is why. You imply the same question yourself when you say that you’d be uncomfortable with such a conversation, and you don’t think it’s because you have a problem with choice in the abstract. You don’t personally have to answer, but it does automatically beg the question “then why would you be uncomfortable with it?”
Ah, I see. Sorry, then.
Well, I’m not sure why, to be quite honest. There’s the long history of male proprietary control over women’s bodies, and it might be that while I don’t accept that explicitly, it is something that I’ve become acculturated to.
The comment which Sarah TX made about how society has othered the female experience might be a part of why I feel comfortable with it in the abstract, but uncomfortable with a conversation in reality.
Only some men. I don’t know if any of my partners has terminated a pregnancy, but friends who have had abortions have talked with me about it. I don’t think of a woman’s right to choose as an abstraction. It’s a right I support in practice as well as theory.
I have to say I don’t know that being scared of unintended pregnancy is the same as being uncomfortable with abortion-both my partner and I are terrified of me getting pregnant, and therefore work extremely hard to avoid the necessity of abortion, but we both know what would happen if I did end up pregnant in the near future. these aren’t so much being uncomfortable with choice, as a fear which is admittedly irrational. though I think Jill earlier was a little bit flippant about people who believe that while they don’t get to make the choice for someone else, there is a correct choice-I can think of people who I don’t relate as well to because their choices, while not anything I have the right to change, indicate very different values from what I have. I can’t tell them what to do, but I think it’s a bit much to say I should have no opinion.
No one said you can’t have an opinion. But you’re kind of an ass if your date tells you she’s had an abortion and you take that opportunity to express your opinion about how she should or should not feel.
I think the fact that several previous commenters have mentioned men becoming uncomfortable at the very idea of pregnancy tells us a little something about the male reaction to abortion. Perhaps most tellingly, we’re talking about an unplanned pregnancy without actually admitting that its unplanned. Unplanned pregnancy is something which takes men completely out of their comfort zones because it is a situation in which they not only have no control, but have no way of obtaining control. You grow up being told that the early bird gets the worm, that initiative, hard work, and dominance are the keys to not only personal success but to individual value. The moment the spectre of an unplanned pregnancy comes up you find yourself in the position of having no say, of being completely passive, of major and serious influences in your life being utterly out of your hands. Abortion ties into that sense of being out of control because it means that the woman who had the abortion is capable of exercising control over the situation in such a way that you are now out of control with multiple potential outcomes. Not only do you have no control but you cannot effectively plan for the future so that you can obtain control because there are multiple unforeseeable options. Moreover, you have to watch someone else exercise that control you crave, you have to accept that someone else is in power. An unplanned pregnancy shears away that sense of security and potency that comes with male privilege. What makes matters worse is that if you’re even marginally civilized these feelings and fears are nebulous, unconscious things that whip up a sense of anxiety without ever allowing you to be aware of them.
“The thing is, what he felt was concern for ME, or at least that’s how he expressed it, in spite of the fact that I honestly did not care or get upset. I had to convince him that it wasn’t a big deal for me. Which was odd.”
It may be one of those instances where guys are socialized to think that it’s Not Okay for them to have feelings about the topic, or to admit to being really freaked out by it, so the first reaction is to project it onto the partner.
I’ve had similar reactions from men when I’ve talked about having placed a child for adoption – obviously I’m a “very strong person” to have done something “so difficult”, and when I try to talk about how this wasn’t very difficult for me (yay for Canada’s health care system, so I got good pre-natal care – I wouldn’t have been able to do it if I had had to pay for everything out of pocket) and it has not been an emotional trauma, people get pissed off at me for being so casual about something that happened years before I met them. As though they should be the final arbitrator of what is upsetting, and if I don’t behave properly then I am bad.
I also get the before-mentioned tutting about how dare I get pregnant – not how dare I was having sex, but I shouldn’t have gotten myself pregnant.
*sigh*
This post piles on to my feeling that I’m not alone in wanting to be louder about my abortion, and that the world could benefit from hearing us speak. Does anyone know of a good resource for this?
Interesting observation, William. I think you’re right that the feeling of loss of control is something that shocks men because they rarely have to deal with it. Which is, of course, an illusion. There’s a lot we can’t control. But our society conceals that from men in fairly significant ways. But there’s no way around it with pregnancy.
Which of course is why abortion has been illegal in the past. Men trying to deal with that lack of control by grabbing control over women’s bodies.
ET, contact the group Exhale—I think they could help you speak out more.
Another personal story…actually this is probably the biggest thing going on in my life right now maybe somebody can offer advice.
My current gf and I have had I don’t know how many fights over the possibility of pregnancy. I am firmly against having children right now, but she insists she would carry it to term. She is pro-choice (at least in the first trimester) so that’s not the issue; she just thinks that it is somehow an “easy way out” for her to get an abortion – basically “if she is mature enough to have sex she should accept the consequences.”
I slap my head when she says this and it’s really hurt our sex life because I freak out out by the possibility of getting stuck with a kid while I’m starting a time-consuming legal career. I mean I support that it’s her decision to keep it but I feel like she’s being unreasonable I’ve tried telling her that it isn’t logical that she should “accept consequences” of behavior (whatever that means) etc. but she just doesn’t listen. What do I do????
…Oh and worse still she thinks that I’m only afraid of being stuck with a kid because I don’t want to be tied to her.
Stan-
You wear a condom. Or get a vasectomy. She’s being upfront with her beliefs, and so you know what her decision will probably be if she gets pregnant. If you don’t want her to get pregnant, do what you can with your own body to prevent it. But realize that pregnancy is always a risk, and if she does get pregnant, coercing or pushing her to terminate is just as wrong as coercing or pushing her to give birth against her will. It sounds to me that she’s being really fair — she’s up-front and honest about her beliefs, and you’re being up-front and honest about yours. But at the end of the day, she’s the one who, if pregnancy happens, has to have surgery or give birth. So you don’t get to make that call for her, or tell her she’s being “unreasonable.”
Our reproductive rights begin and end with our own bodies. I realize that for men that can be really frustrating. But trying to tell her what to do isn’t going to be good for her, for you or for the relationship. She’s told you what the situation is, and so now it’s up to you to make decisions based on these circumstances. If she’s using birth control consistently and you’re using condoms every single time, the risk of pregnancy is extremely low. You have a right to your own body, and to make the best decisions for you — and if you’re in a situation where you don’t want to have kids but your partner has told you she will carry a pregnancy to term, that’s something to take into account.
All of that said, your comment raises some red flags for me. You talk about how you tell her that her point of view isn’t logical but she “doesn’t listen” — it sounds to me like the issue isn’t her “not listening,” it’s different values and beliefs. And the way you’re invalidating her belief system is troubling — assuming that she’s just illogical or doesn’t hear what you’re saying, when maybe she just doesn’t agree with you about the best choice for her. The internet is an imperfect medium and I realize peoples’ relationships are always more complicated than can be explained online (or even verbally), but your comment comes across as extremely condescending towards her. Just something to think about.
Thanks Jill. Yeh, she says I’m condescending all the time. It kind of threw me – you say the exact same sort of things she does in response. Ugh. I’m a dick to be in a relationship with I’m starting to realize I’m just very OCD about how I order my life and I hate other people challenging it. It helps to hear it from somebody else though I know she’s right now.
She is on bc now thank God so I have less to worry about…I guess I’ll just take a calculated risk and accept it if it happens.
Interesting issue here. I think that since men don’t have to go through a decision like that they can’t get an accurate idea of how it affects people differently. I do know firsthand though that when people don’t react to certain situations the way you’re taught is the “normal” way, it causes you to react oddly even when you should know better. I’ll give an example:
I have several friends who have killed people. When we talk about it, some of them express some sadness, even if there are jokes or attempts to be lighthearted about it. When that happens, I commiserate and we laugh and I don’t feel uncomfortable. But some of the guys literally seem to feel no adverse effects at all. They sleep well at night and feel no remorse. These are my friends, and they did nothing wrong. But I still get uncomfortable, even though I should know better. That lack of the socially acceptable self-flagellation just strikes me as wrong even though it isn’t.
I’m hoping your friends are military, Henry. But do we have to go over the ‘to many, abortion is nothing like murder’ thing? That kind of remorse isn’t equal to the remorse that many women feel about their abortions…so why are you expecting that?
As a side note — I’ve known women who reacted the same way. A friend of mine mentioned to myself and a mutual friend that she had had a pregnancy scare, but was not pregnant. All three of us are pro-choice and don’t want kids. I joked to the friend with the scare that I’d drive her to the clinic were it to happen (sort of an inside joke since the clinic is 6 blocks from the block we live on and none of us drive).
Our mutual friend got angry at me and told me I shouldn’t joke about something so serious — that it’s “never an easy decision.” I said that when I got mine, it was a very easy decision and I have never regretted it once. She went on a (very surprising) tangent on how I must be mistaken and I ended the conversation pissed off at having my experience dismissed, by someone who I would have expected to be supportive. I’m sure I’m not the only one to have this kind of reaction — it’s not just men.
point, Jill-the right to have an opinion doesn’t equal the right to say anything about it. which might be a large part of what the guys in the date actually did wrong-they can think what they like about her abortions, but it’s not their place to tell her.
and Stan-a condom is still a good plan, even if she is on birth control. or at least, it relieves some of my anxiety.
I was thinking this as well. While I imagine the fear of pregnancy, especially unplanned, figures into the male reaction, I’m pretty sure the first time someone told me their [almost-] abortion story (she ended up having a miscarriage before going out of the country to get the procedure) I was kind of shocked. It was a rather dumb, sheltered reaction I had, as a teenager, to a bluff older relative regaling me with tales of Back in the pre-Roe Day: she hadn’t even had the abortion, but I was amazed at the casualness. I’d grown up in the post-Roe era of obligatory hand-wringing.
Of course, that experience, plus a few years’ seasoning, made me a much more sensitive listener when a friend of my own age told me her abortion story. I think that weird disconnect the first time the abstract becomes real and the political personal can affect folks of either gender.
Bene:
Some people have killed in self defense as civilians.
Just thirding the chorus to Stan. Two methods of birth control are always better than one, statistically speaking. Also, you may feel less bothered by the situation if you are taking concrete steps YOURSELF to reduce the risk. So yeah, condoms as a secondary birth control method are a definitely good thing. And your girlfriend may appreciate the fact that you’re taking some of the responsibility on yourself as well.
I’ve had awkward moments in discussions about abortion before when people have interpreted my “My termination was awful, and I would never wish any woman having to go through that” as being about the emotional or spiritual consequences of the procedure. When they express that, and I respond carefully that I was actually referring to the serious blood loss, discomfort, and bad reaction to the anaesthesia… yeah. Awkward.
Emotionally? Except for a few moments when I wasn’t entirely mentally healthy, I’ve felt nothing more than relief or ambivalence, including relief that I wasn’t amongst the many women tied to an abusive partner by a child.
Stan: My partner and I have been together for three years, and are considering this to be a relationship with a probability of permanence. We’ve both agreed that at some point we want to have children together, and I’ve been clear that I don’t want to have another termination. We still use two forms of birth control, including a barrier method, because it simply means neither of us have to worry about it, at all. It sounds like you’re worrying a lot. Introducing a barrier method may help that.
Hmm, Henry’s anecdote actually sheds some light on this for me. I’d be pretty uncomfortable with anyone who had killed a person and felt no remorse (just to be entirely clear, abortion != killing a person, and I am not endorsing such a comparision.)
And that’s because I feel like it’s pretty essential for a functioning society that human beings should have remorse at killing other human beings. I could be wrong about this.
It is possible that these guys believe at some level that society will collapse if women go against their “maternal instincts” and don’t have the feelings they’re supposed to have about this particular surgical procedure.
So, in other words, it’s pure and simple sexism, probably the internalised kind not the conscious kind. I’d bet there’s a correlation with believing in evo-psych.
Also, does anyone else get the sense from those Alternet commenters that “poking fun at men*” and maybe even “rejecting men as dates” were just as high up her list of heinous crimes as “having an abortion and not regretting it?”
We live in a society where even nominally pro-choice politicians and professional opiners, men and women alike, feel obliged to voice the mantra that abortion is some great moral dilemma. As with all inane Villager Conventional Wisdom™, people who are personally affected by the issue at hand are much less likely to internalize the insipidity of our political discourse. Most men, never having had to personally face issues of pregnancy and abortion and told all their lives by family, media, and politicians that abortion is some big deal, aren’t readily able to conceive of abortion as no big deal. There’s no inherent reason that abortion should be a big deal except when a pregnancy was wanted and had to be terminated for medical reasons or because of fetal abnormality, but the pervasively noxious belief that abortion is a weighty matter and a big deal turns it into one for most people who aren’t forced to confront the idiocy of abortion conventional wisdom.
What it comes down to is that men, even if they’re pro choice, tend not to think for themselves in the abstract about pregnancy and abortion, and those who don’t think for themselves have their thinking done for them by the other voices they hear.
“she just thinks that it is somehow an “easy way out” for her to get an abortion – basically “if she is mature enough to have sex she should accept the consequences.””
This is neither here nor there with regards to your relationship, which Jill seems to have handled pretty thoroughly, but….
You may want to point out that it’s not a “consequence” she’d be carrying to term, if she were to do so. It’d be a child, with a right to be treated as a living, sentient, loved human being rather than a millstone around someone’s neck or a monument to someone’s “maturity.” It’s a little creepy to talk about what would be a separate individual solely in relation to how they would be an accepted negative outcome of your decision to have sex and a little sad to have a view of pregnancy and motherhood so firmly rooted in punishment.
Stan… I see I’m the only one who seems to have this reaction, so take it with a grain of salt. But if you are serious about not wanting to raise a child at this point in your life, and you know that she wouldn’t terminate an accidental preganncy… Well, I’d either stop having PIV sex in that relationship, or end the relationship.
Note: I am a woman.
It is possible that these guys believe at some level that society will collapse if women go against their “maternal instincts” and don’t have the feelings they’re supposed to have about this particular surgical procedure.
So, in other words, it’s pure and simple sexism, probably the internalised kind not the conscious kind.
I was going to add a comment along very much these lines.
I think that there is a socially-constructed narrative that abortion is somehow the “last, most desperate option” (incidentally, that was how I interpreted the analogy that Henry made – chances are, if you killed someone, then it was a last, most desperate option when no other course remained). If you have that image of abortion as being in some way the “last resort”, you don’t want to imagine someone you might be starting to care about being put in a position to make that sort of “last resort” decision.
Another thought: Hexy’s comment about the physical trauma (rather than emotional or spiritual) reminds me of a comment I made some while back (I think I posted it on a thread on feministe, actually), in which I displayed an assumption that any abortion procedure must necessarily be physically risky and invasive for the woman having it done (I got responses back saying, “oh, but mine was incredibly easy, actually,” to which I could only say, “I stand corrected.”). Maybe other men feel the same way about the procedure as I did in that sense. It is still a troubling and disturbing thought, that someone underwent such a medical procedure as I imagined abortion to be. It is at least possible that some of those men who reacted strangely, might have been imagining that it was an experience like hexy’s, and not like those people who responded to my assumption.
One final thought – my natural inclination is to be “pro-life”, but the real world doesn’t support the preconditions required for that position t be reasonable, so I am actually fiercely defensive of a woman’s right to choose (see why here). I hope that when/if I am faced with a date who tells me about an abortion, that I will respond according to her displayed emotions rather than simply react according to my own beliefs.
You wear a condom. Or get a vasectomy.
I’d either stop having PIV sex in that relationship, or end the relationship.
I’ll note in favor of Mandolin’s view that IME it is perfectly possible to have a fulfilling sexual relationship without PIV. I had a five-year relationship without having PIV with my primary partner. There are lots of ways to be physically intimate, and to have partnered orgasms.
On Stan’s question:
A number of commenters have said “use a condom” as though that’s a sure answer. My read is that Stan and his gf take precautions already, but are aware that these have a low-percentage failure rate. Stan seems to be worried about the very unlikely circumstance that failure happens, and what he and his gf would do about that situation. Two forms of protection are better than one, but there is still a non-zero chance of failure, so the question (it seems to me) still stands.
Firstly, I agree with Jill that trying to convince gf that her position is illogical is a sure-fire way to make things worse for both of you. These are emotionally-based choices, and regardless of whether you think yours are more logical than hers, they are still emotionally-based, not rationally-based. You can only apply logic to the emotions, not to the premises on which those emotions are based. If gf has remained firm in her convictions, then you just have to deal with those as if they are concrete fact.
So, what are Stan’s choices?
I think the line that Jill used, “our reproductive rights begin and end with our own bodies,” is the launchpad here.
Option 1: Vasectomy. Great if you never want to have kids, and maybe if you do, you could consider adoption in the future. If you want to be the genetic father, and do it the old-fashioned way, then not such a great option.
Option 2: Abstinence. This is the old-fashioned way of avoiding pregnancy. Just stop having PIV sex with her. That still leaves plenty of other options for mutual physical pleasure, and it takes control of your part in the deal. If you want to retain complete control of when you have children, this is the only option open to you; all other options have non-zero probabilities of pregnancy, or else close off the possibility forever.
Option 3: Choose a different partner. This is basically if you feel strongly enough on the matter to say that your difference of opinion makes the relationship untenable. It will also look a lot like emotional blackmail (“agree to the principle of having an abortion in the extremely unlikely event that both methods of contraception fail, or you’re dumped!” will inevitably have that kind of a controlling, even to some extent abusive, tone, however you phase it differently).
Option 4: Negotiate responsibility. This is where you say, “it is your choice, but also your responsibility. I do not feel ready to deal with parenthood at this stage in my life, so if you carry it to term, then I cannot play an equal part in the parenthood duties.” Also possible: discuss whether she might offer the child for adoption rather than starting a family at this point.
Final thoughts: as pointed out, although the probability of pregnancy is going to be non-zero for all PIV sex, the probability is very close to zero, and so a lot of these issues are really just not worth worrying about unless it actually happens, at which point you can discuss in more detail the ideas in option 4.
I confess I was kind of freaked when I found out my boyfriend had got one of his exes pregnant (granted, by not using a condom, so at least I don’t have to worry about him having condom-busting sperm or something). I mean, yeah, fertility is the default, but I’ve been hoping to be infertile since I was a small child (yes, I’m a freak), and reminders of my or my partner’s fertility are things I’d rather not have. So I can see how that reminder of fertility could freak a guy out.
I have a feeling there are a lot of reasons, not least the general societal discomfort with talking about abortions in specific personal terms. I was STUNNED on Private Practice when two of the characters outright admitted to having personally had abortions, and had different reactions to them, because usually when abortion comes up in TV fiction, it’s in the context of “I’m pro-choice, but of course I would never have an abortion.”
I know more than one person who’s had an abortion–including a very close relative–but only two of them don’t treat it as a secret secret thing. It’s surprising when someone you know talks about having had an abortion, because it doesn’t happen nearly as often as abortions.
I still worry a bit about what would happen if I ever did get pregnant and get an abortion; my boyfriend’s pro-choice (and dislikes children to an extent that kind of annoys me despite not wanting my own), but he was raised by fundamentalists and I can’t help but wonder if some conditioning that Women Who Get Abortions Are Evil Sinners would come out. Here’s hoping I never find out.
Disliking children and being pro-choice doesn’t even make sense.
Are you saying that people can’t be both pro-choice AND like children, because the combination of those two positions is incomprehensible? Or are you saying that neither position makes sense because both are incomprehensible?
I still worry a bit about what would happen if I ever did get pregnant and get an abortion; my boyfriend’s pro-choice (and dislikes children to an extent that kind of annoys me despite not wanting my own), but he was raised by fundamentalists and I can’t help but wonder if some conditioning that Women Who Get Abortions Are Evil Sinners would come out. Here’s hoping I never find out.
I completely understand this. I sort of feel the same way about my husband. It isn’t that he dislikes children (we have two together and he’s a wonderful father) and he’s definitely pro choice in the abstract. But I seem to be very, very fertile and I am more or less terrified of getting pregnant again. I’ve told him flat out that if we have a birth control failure, that I will get an abortion ASAP, as I definitely don’t want any more children and I NEVER want to be pregnant again. And he has said that that’s fine and it’s my choice, blah blah. But I also know that he kind of does want another child, or at least, he’s not entirely averse to the idea of another child (when the subject comes up, he says that it doesn’t matter what he wants, as I’ve repeatedly and heatedly said that I’m done, but he’s always a bit wistful when he says it). So I worry that, should I become pregnant and then have an abortion, he’d be weird about it and it would damage our relationship, and if I were to have another kid, I know for a fact that I’d be really resentful of both him and the kid and that would definitely damage our relationship.
So we double up on the birth control and I’m seriously considering having a tubal in the near future (as soon as enough money is saved up for that).
That was a great, great article & another reminder of just how dishonest the public dialogue about abortion is. A few months ago I read a post on another blog about a (liberal male) philosophy prof and how he always uses the abortion debate as a case-study and how everyone learns and its awesome and blah blah blah.
It killed me because you know the actual conversation in any university classroom with respect to abortion is INEVITABLY incredibly dishonest because everyone engages the topic in the abstract while some proportion of women in that classroom will have had abortions and 99% of the time they are, quite wisely given the potential backlash, not going to say so. Discussing race in a class with actual black people in the room, or sexuality in a class with actual out gay people in the room, produces a pretty different kind of conversation than discussing race and sexuality in class full of straight whites. But with abortion 19 year old frat boys never have to look any of their actual female-classmates-who-have-had-abortions in the eye when they go on about their heartfelt conviction that abortion is murder, so any amount of bullshit grandstanding goes. I think that liberal male prof is just an older version of the guys that young women is dating — abortion, unlike race or sexuality, is regarded by such men as a totally abstract problem, so that encountering an actual woman who mentions her actual abortion makes them deeply uncomfortable.
P.S. while it’s nice that people have engaged Henry in good faith, I suspect he is a troll.
Remember back in 2008 when feminist writer Amy Richards got an abortion because she was expecting triplets, and she knew she couldn’t handle three babies at once? She was very matter-of-fact over choosing to abort two of the fetuses. She didn’t feel remorse or anything even close to it, and she was condemned because of it. She felt no guilty, no remorse, and she had no personal problems following her selection abortions. But according to some, she didn’t have the “right” reaction to her abortions, and I remember that Hugo was one blogger who called her to task for it. I agreed with what Richards had said in her NY Times piece on her abortions, even though it’s not my place to approve. I understood where she was coming from, though. They were medical procedures she needed, and there was no reason for her to have doubts or feel guilt or “act the right way” after having necessary medical treatment.
Here’s my blog post on the topic:
http://trishwilson.typepad.com/blog/2004/07/when_is_an_abor.html
Richards was honest and blunt about choosing the abortions to preserve her autonomy and ability to live her life properly. It’s not my business or anyone else’s to judge her reason for getting those abortions. That’s what choice is all about.
For good or ill, men go for women who remind them of their mothers.
Unfortunately for your theory, lots of men’s mothers have had abortions.
I read that article and I think the guy’s reaction were different because of his relationship to the woman being blase about the abortion, she could very well get pregnant by him, he wants the child, she aborts and be just as blase about that. The author was offended by her current boyfriend of 9 month’s reaction of the news solely because he chose to exercise his reproductive rights and not have unprotected sex with her. I don’t see what’s offensive about that. If he doesn’t want to ever run the chance of someone aborting a fetus that is 50% comprised of his DNA then his ONLY option outside of celibacy and sterilization is to use condoms. His sperm, his right to decide where it goes. He decided it will not be deposited in her womb. She should respect that as his choice and not take it as an offense against her.
And PS, the thing about him choosing a different partner is best for him on the surface because even another pro-choice woman who may have defiantly and proudly skipped int the abortion clinic and triumphantly staggered her way out in pain may choose NOT to have an abortion. You can’t predict when or if you’ll want to keep the pregnancy until it actually happens. You may be broke now and then boom hit the lotery the day you find out you’re pregnant. You don’t know, you never really know. His best bet is to use a condom w/spermicide to ensure no egg is fertilized by him. I know its a huge hassel but its muc better than facing the reality of conception when you really didn’t want that to happen.
Jill I don’t think its fair to say that men who are personally repelled by women who have abortions can go f*ck themselves. There are women who are repelled by the idea of having one or someone they knwo having one but they stil support her. For a woman NO ONE can abort YOUR child without your consent, they can’t force you to get an abortion, perid. But for men you can date a woman she gets pregnant and has an abortion, no say at all on his part after conception. If he avoids or chooses not to date women who would have or have had abortions that’s his right which has a lot more to do with reproductive rights than anything else because everything short of abstinence fails. Men who were deemed infertile have fathered children , not a common problem but it happens. For those who never want to have a pregnancy that they were apart of aborted, choosing who it is you will be intimate with is one of te ways of taking control over whether or not abortions will occur. Again this method would not be fool proof but certainly helps in retaining the little control men have over their reproductive rights.
This has been bugging me all night:
That’s a bit of an ableist statement. For many of us who are non-neurotypical, such a thing is not only hard, but sometimes downright impossible.
“P.S. while it’s nice that people have engaged Henry in good faith, I suspect he is a troll.”
I’m sorry you think so; I’m not sure what would give you that impression. I guess it depends on your definition of a troll. I’m certainly not in ideological agreement with a lot of the opinions here, but I’ve never kept that a secret, or made any intentionally inflammatory statements.
I’m comfortable with the content of my posts here over the last couple years. I think their overall tone of respect speaks to my intentions well enough.
sophonisba:
But how many mothers discuss their own abortions with their children? Not many, I imagine. It’s just one of those things that is in the past that parents don’t really have a need to discuss with their children in most circumstances.
Perhaps it’s been said above, but I believe two issues even ’smart liberal’ men do not get are abortion and rape. I spent a long time trying to convince my best male friend that rapists are usually NOT creeps who hang out in alleyways, but far more likely to be someone you know. He just doesn’t get it, nor why telling rape jokes infront of women is a stupid idea, since he’s likely to say it infront of a survivor at some point, and bring back memories. Abortion is another thing a lot of men don’t understand. And I think the reason why is that they don’t have the female experience. When I was a child, I too didn’t understand rape or abortion. I was too ignorant and naive of the issues. But since I became a menstruating woman who has to deal with the threat of unwanted pregnancy and sexual violence, I understand these things. So I believe the male perspective on these issues is often like that of plenty of pre-teen girls: simply blissfully naive of the reality.
I don’t think you should EVER tell your child you’ve had an abortion. My godmother told my godsister about her 7 abortions before having her and my godsister always thinks ” Thank goodness I was number 8″, they aren’t very close. :(
I know of at least two women close to me who have told their kids that they had abortions. With both of them, they already had two kids (ages 5 and 7 in one case, 3 and 6 in the other), and were in financially difficult situations, and were told a few months into the pregnancy that they’d need to go on complete bed rest in order to have a chance of carrying the pregnancy to term. Both decided with their husbands that an abortion was the best option for them. And in both cases, they already told the kids “You’re going to have a baby brother or sister,” so the kids knew that something was going on, and the abortion was explained to them when they were older.
One of these was in 1980. The other was 1955. In that 1955 one, the abortion was done secretly and illegally, and the woman developed an infection that put her in the hospital for two weeks.
What the fuck pheniscks. seriously.
What kind of immature person expects their mother to keep such a huge secret or act like she’s ashamed so to protect her daughter’s irrational feelings?
My mom told me about her abortion (which took place in the 70s). She also told me about my grandmother’s abortion (in the 1940s), which leads me to deduce that my grandmother told her. I’ve always been really proud of both of them for making decisions about when to have kids and when not to that were right for them.
Knowing these stories has meant that throughout my adult life I’ve known that my family that would understand and support my choices. So, um, hell yeah parents should tell their children about this stuff.
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