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	<title>Comments on: Who Gets to Say What, Part 3: Whiteness, Leetness</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/03/who-gets-to-say-what-part-3-whiteness-leetness/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/03/who-gets-to-say-what-part-3-whiteness-leetness/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:11:18 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Ampersand</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/03/who-gets-to-say-what-part-3-whiteness-leetness/#comment-230328</link>
		<dc:creator>Ampersand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12059#comment-230328</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m 40, fwiw.

I have a plug-in which creates a checkbox on the comments of particular threads, in an attempt to create self-enforcing &quot;feminists only&quot; or &quot;anti-racists only&quot; threads. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2009/01/27/response-to-christina-hoff-sommers-part-3-truths-and-lies/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;You can see what it looks like here&lt;/a&gt; (scroll to the bottom).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m 40, fwiw.</p>
<p>I have a plug-in which creates a checkbox on the comments of particular threads, in an attempt to create self-enforcing &#8220;feminists only&#8221; or &#8220;anti-racists only&#8221; threads. <a href="http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2009/01/27/response-to-christina-hoff-sommers-part-3-truths-and-lies/" rel="nofollow">You can see what it looks like here</a> (scroll to the bottom).</p>
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		<title>By: octogalore</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/03/who-gets-to-say-what-part-3-whiteness-leetness/#comment-230321</link>
		<dc:creator>octogalore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 04:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12059#comment-230321</guid>
		<description>Lauredhel -- I didn&#039;t know that, thanks for sharing that info.  I am 41 myself, although certainly not a central or big player by any stretch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lauredhel &#8212; I didn&#8217;t know that, thanks for sharing that info.  I am 41 myself, although certainly not a central or big player by any stretch.</p>
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		<title>By: lauredhel</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/03/who-gets-to-say-what-part-3-whiteness-leetness/#comment-230021</link>
		<dc:creator>lauredhel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 11:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12059#comment-230021</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;if there are many feminist-big-bloggers over 40, I am not aware of them&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I wouldn&#039;t call us &quot;big bloggers&quot;, but we made the infamous linkfluence &quot;top 30&quot; list, and tigtog and I are both over 40.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;if there are many feminist-big-bloggers over 40, I am not aware of them&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t call us &#8220;big bloggers&#8221;, but we made the infamous linkfluence &#8220;top 30&#8243; list, and tigtog and I are both over 40.</p>
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		<title>By: Emily</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/03/who-gets-to-say-what-part-3-whiteness-leetness/#comment-229808</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 14:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12059#comment-229808</guid>
		<description>Having brought up some of the 101 talk, I want to make it clear that I think that engaging people with 101 type questions and comments is, in general, a very important project and I very much admire those with a tendency to engage these folks.  I think you are doing very important work.  

I began my experience in the feminist blogosphere with The Happy Feminist blog (now dormant).  She had unending patience answering Feminism 101 questions and comments, which I didn&#039;t even notice until I&#039;d been reading her for a while and then expanded my reading to other areas of the feminist blogosphere.  

I like the idea of &quot;big&quot; or well known feminist blogs being places where people with less understanding or experience can go to begin to deepen their understanding of and engagement with feminism.  I think there is also value in having venues that explicitly say - this is not what we do (such as Twisty&#039;s term &quot;experienced blamers&quot;).

The added dimension that I guess we are also talking about here is what about the people who are perhaps &quot;experienced blamers&quot; in terms of Feminism concepts but not at all experienced in the fundamental concepts of anti-racism.  This is harder for me to think through, but I guess the more important topic for Feministe.

It seems to come up in two potential contexts - one, a post intended to produce, or that actually produces a constructive, complex, moderately &quot;advanced&quot; discussion of racism in which 101 type questions threaten to de-rail the thread; and two, a post that leads to a complex, moderately advanced discussion of a (not explicitly race related) feminsm topic in which a commenter&#039;s comment is problematic in a way that can only really be addressed by identifying it as problematic and doing some racism 101 analysis to explay why it&#039;s problematic.  

I think so far we&#039;ve been talking about the first scenario, and not so much the second, but the second issue is also one that contributes to how &quot;safe&quot; an environment Feministe is for people of color and how &quot;white&quot; or &quot;not white&quot; of a space it is perceived to be.  

Personally I think that I perceive a space as &quot;white&quot; or &quot;white dominated&quot; or &quot;white accomodating&quot; if I expect people who make perhaps unthinkingly racists comments to either not be confronted about it, or to be confronted about it in an very polite and accommodating way (with a willingness to qualify criticism with - I&#039;m sure you didn&#039;t mean it that way, or to me, this comment sounds a little prejudiced, or whatever).  When I visit or participate in WOC lead blogs/spaces, I expect similar comments will be confronted forcefully and perhaps even in a way that could be perceived as angry, flippant or mean (which I don&#039;t mean as a criticism - I think it is the difference between being sort of &quot;coddled&quot; and being directly and forcefully confronted).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having brought up some of the 101 talk, I want to make it clear that I think that engaging people with 101 type questions and comments is, in general, a very important project and I very much admire those with a tendency to engage these folks.  I think you are doing very important work.  </p>
<p>I began my experience in the feminist blogosphere with The Happy Feminist blog (now dormant).  She had unending patience answering Feminism 101 questions and comments, which I didn&#8217;t even notice until I&#8217;d been reading her for a while and then expanded my reading to other areas of the feminist blogosphere.  </p>
<p>I like the idea of &#8220;big&#8221; or well known feminist blogs being places where people with less understanding or experience can go to begin to deepen their understanding of and engagement with feminism.  I think there is also value in having venues that explicitly say &#8211; this is not what we do (such as Twisty&#8217;s term &#8220;experienced blamers&#8221;).</p>
<p>The added dimension that I guess we are also talking about here is what about the people who are perhaps &#8220;experienced blamers&#8221; in terms of Feminism concepts but not at all experienced in the fundamental concepts of anti-racism.  This is harder for me to think through, but I guess the more important topic for Feministe.</p>
<p>It seems to come up in two potential contexts &#8211; one, a post intended to produce, or that actually produces a constructive, complex, moderately &#8220;advanced&#8221; discussion of racism in which 101 type questions threaten to de-rail the thread; and two, a post that leads to a complex, moderately advanced discussion of a (not explicitly race related) feminsm topic in which a commenter&#8217;s comment is problematic in a way that can only really be addressed by identifying it as problematic and doing some racism 101 analysis to explay why it&#8217;s problematic.  </p>
<p>I think so far we&#8217;ve been talking about the first scenario, and not so much the second, but the second issue is also one that contributes to how &#8220;safe&#8221; an environment Feministe is for people of color and how &#8220;white&#8221; or &#8220;not white&#8221; of a space it is perceived to be.  </p>
<p>Personally I think that I perceive a space as &#8220;white&#8221; or &#8220;white dominated&#8221; or &#8220;white accomodating&#8221; if I expect people who make perhaps unthinkingly racists comments to either not be confronted about it, or to be confronted about it in an very polite and accommodating way (with a willingness to qualify criticism with &#8211; I&#8217;m sure you didn&#8217;t mean it that way, or to me, this comment sounds a little prejudiced, or whatever).  When I visit or participate in WOC lead blogs/spaces, I expect similar comments will be confronted forcefully and perhaps even in a way that could be perceived as angry, flippant or mean (which I don&#8217;t mean as a criticism &#8211; I think it is the difference between being sort of &#8220;coddled&#8221; and being directly and forcefully confronted).</p>
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		<title>By: The Opoponax</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/03/who-gets-to-say-what-part-3-whiteness-leetness/#comment-229734</link>
		<dc:creator>The Opoponax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12059#comment-229734</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Note that people who *engage* the 101ers will also have their comments deleted, so they are encouraged not to derail the conversation.&lt;/i&gt;

As someone with a bad habit of doing this, I think this is a brilliant idea!  And will redouble my efforts to stay out of the 101 crap unless I want to go do it at a 101 blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Note that people who *engage* the 101ers will also have their comments deleted, so they are encouraged not to derail the conversation.</i></p>
<p>As someone with a bad habit of doing this, I think this is a brilliant idea!  And will redouble my efforts to stay out of the 101 crap unless I want to go do it at a 101 blog.</p>
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		<title>By: amandaw</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/03/who-gets-to-say-what-part-3-whiteness-leetness/#comment-229720</link>
		<dc:creator>amandaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 23:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12059#comment-229720</guid>
		<description>I would agree with belledame that there wouldn&#039;t necessarily need to be moderation. The way I see it, you&#039;d stick a notice at the bottom of the page that says, &quot;This post is limited to [whomever].&quot; Or, &quot;Comments will be restricted. Potential derailers will be moderated or deleted,&quot; linking to a page that just outlines the general reasoning behind having a restricted-comments policy for certain posts. And if talk of a Racism-101-type blog go through, perhaps a link to the relevant page(s). And that&#039;s the end of that conversation -- period. Note that people who *engage* the 101ers will also have their comments deleted, so they are encouraged not to derail the conversation.

It operates mostly on the good faith of the participants. The volume on this blog is pretty heavy, but I think it would work in &lt;i&gt;most&lt;/i&gt; cases to simply moderate on an as-needed basis -- specific comments or commenters, not whole threads. That said, I held a key for a couple weeks; I&#039;m not the one in a position to know how well that would work. And a plugin that allows you to auto-moderate specific threads would be handy for those exception threads that are particularly sensitive subjects or what have you.

Obviously this wouldn&#039;t be every post, or even a majority of posts. But when the author feels like they want the conversation to get pushed a little further, maybe...

I&#039;m mostly just throwing spaghetti on the wall to see what sticks, here. Just some idears to play around with. I definitely don&#039;t think perma-moderation, even only for certain posts, would be workable, or productive, at this particular blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would agree with belledame that there wouldn&#8217;t necessarily need to be moderation. The way I see it, you&#8217;d stick a notice at the bottom of the page that says, &#8220;This post is limited to [whomever].&#8221; Or, &#8220;Comments will be restricted. Potential derailers will be moderated or deleted,&#8221; linking to a page that just outlines the general reasoning behind having a restricted-comments policy for certain posts. And if talk of a Racism-101-type blog go through, perhaps a link to the relevant page(s). And that&#8217;s the end of that conversation &#8212; period. Note that people who *engage* the 101ers will also have their comments deleted, so they are encouraged not to derail the conversation.</p>
<p>It operates mostly on the good faith of the participants. The volume on this blog is pretty heavy, but I think it would work in <i>most</i> cases to simply moderate on an as-needed basis &#8212; specific comments or commenters, not whole threads. That said, I held a key for a couple weeks; I&#8217;m not the one in a position to know how well that would work. And a plugin that allows you to auto-moderate specific threads would be handy for those exception threads that are particularly sensitive subjects or what have you.</p>
<p>Obviously this wouldn&#8217;t be every post, or even a majority of posts. But when the author feels like they want the conversation to get pushed a little further, maybe&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m mostly just throwing spaghetti on the wall to see what sticks, here. Just some idears to play around with. I definitely don&#8217;t think perma-moderation, even only for certain posts, would be workable, or productive, at this particular blog.</p>
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		<title>By: The Opoponax</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/03/who-gets-to-say-what-part-3-whiteness-leetness/#comment-229654</link>
		<dc:creator>The Opoponax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 20:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12059#comment-229654</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Incidentally, Opoponax, you wouldn’t be willing to discuss this because it’s “racism 101?” Sigh. Don’t confuse disagreement with lack of comprehension, or I will have to start referring you to Logic 101 or Philosophy 101 sites&lt;/i&gt;

These days generally I&#039;m not all that interested in having long drawn out &quot;but what &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; truth, really?&quot; conversations with a stranger in the middle of my work day while totally sober.  I don&#039;t know that we necessarily disagree on anything, I just am not particularly interested in the conversation you want to have.  Which is my right, and I&#039;m starting to be a bit skeeved that you can&#039;t just take &quot;sorry, the paying job calls&quot; for an answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Incidentally, Opoponax, you wouldn’t be willing to discuss this because it’s “racism 101?” Sigh. Don’t confuse disagreement with lack of comprehension, or I will have to start referring you to Logic 101 or Philosophy 101 sites</i></p>
<p>These days generally I&#8217;m not all that interested in having long drawn out &#8220;but what <i>is</i> truth, really?&#8221; conversations with a stranger in the middle of my work day while totally sober.  I don&#8217;t know that we necessarily disagree on anything, I just am not particularly interested in the conversation you want to have.  Which is my right, and I&#8217;m starting to be a bit skeeved that you can&#8217;t just take &#8220;sorry, the paying job calls&#8221; for an answer.</p>
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		<title>By: Latoya Peterson</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/03/who-gets-to-say-what-part-3-whiteness-leetness/#comment-229643</link>
		<dc:creator>Latoya Peterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 20:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12059#comment-229643</guid>
		<description>@Jill - 

&lt;i&gt;Yeah… it would be nice to have it as an option, but honestly, I cannot imagine the logistical nightmare of moderating every single comment on every single post.&lt;/i&gt;

As a person who moderates just about every single comment on every single post, no you do not want that headache.  Though, from what I can recall about helping to mod comments over the summer, it&#039;s only slightly heavier than Racialicious. Y&#039;all just get more explosion periods.  You also have a lot more opposition people trying to engage.

Heavy moderation, unfortunately, seems like the only way to have a productive conversation about race.  However, that intentionally limits your participants which seems counter to your aims.  And as Lauren said above, the assumptions about racism 101 can encompass a variety of things and it is hard to establish a baseline awareness.

Does racism 101 mean we&#039;re still talking about if racism is a problem in society or is that already assumed?

What is the definition of racism?  Can whites be the victims of racism? Is the proper definition racism = power + prejudice or is that definition too simple? or too advanced?

What role does the comfort of white participants play in the conversations you conduct?

All of these questions have to be taken into consideration when conducts a meaningful conversation about race.  And that - to me, anyway - is just the basics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jill &#8211; </p>
<p><i>Yeah… it would be nice to have it as an option, but honestly, I cannot imagine the logistical nightmare of moderating every single comment on every single post.</i></p>
<p>As a person who moderates just about every single comment on every single post, no you do not want that headache.  Though, from what I can recall about helping to mod comments over the summer, it&#8217;s only slightly heavier than Racialicious. Y&#8217;all just get more explosion periods.  You also have a lot more opposition people trying to engage.</p>
<p>Heavy moderation, unfortunately, seems like the only way to have a productive conversation about race.  However, that intentionally limits your participants which seems counter to your aims.  And as Lauren said above, the assumptions about racism 101 can encompass a variety of things and it is hard to establish a baseline awareness.</p>
<p>Does racism 101 mean we&#8217;re still talking about if racism is a problem in society or is that already assumed?</p>
<p>What is the definition of racism?  Can whites be the victims of racism? Is the proper definition racism = power + prejudice or is that definition too simple? or too advanced?</p>
<p>What role does the comfort of white participants play in the conversations you conduct?</p>
<p>All of these questions have to be taken into consideration when conducts a meaningful conversation about race.  And that &#8211; to me, anyway &#8211; is just the basics.</p>
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		<title>By: Sailorman</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/03/who-gets-to-say-what-part-3-whiteness-leetness/#comment-229638</link>
		<dc:creator>Sailorman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 20:05:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12059#comment-229638</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Holly, but apparently my fellow conversationalist is uninterested.  

(Incidentally, Opoponax, you wouldn&#039;t be willing to discuss this because it&#039;s &quot;racism 101?&quot;  Sigh.  Don&#039;t confuse disagreement with lack of comprehension, or I will have to start referring you to Logic 101 or Philosophy 101 sites.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Holly, but apparently my fellow conversationalist is uninterested.  </p>
<p>(Incidentally, Opoponax, you wouldn&#8217;t be willing to discuss this because it&#8217;s &#8220;racism 101?&#8221;  Sigh.  Don&#8217;t confuse disagreement with lack of comprehension, or I will have to start referring you to Logic 101 or Philosophy 101 sites.)</p>
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		<title>By: Deoridhe</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/03/who-gets-to-say-what-part-3-whiteness-leetness/#comment-229627</link>
		<dc:creator>Deoridhe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 19:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12059#comment-229627</guid>
		<description>I think the point about what a &quot;center&quot; is, where feministe is in relation to it in the general blogsphere and the feminist blogsphere, and how that center relates to race, is really interesting. I thin the biggest change I&#039;ve found now that I&#039;m reading a wider variety of blogs, is I&#039;m educated in patterns enough to start to see where the same old thing is cropping up again and to begin to draw conclusions about what might be going on based on those patterns. 

Watching the language used against feminists (strident, angry, man-hating, jealous) shift to women of color who critiqued other feminists (angry, woman-hating, jealous) was eye opening to me in how a lot of the underpinnings for these systemic biases are really an &quot;us vs. them&quot; mindset, and that both the mindset and that WOC bloggers weren&#039;t part of the &quot;us&quot; of women and feminists was the problem, not one or the other, and that these two things bolster privilege.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the point about what a &#8220;center&#8221; is, where feministe is in relation to it in the general blogsphere and the feminist blogsphere, and how that center relates to race, is really interesting. I thin the biggest change I&#8217;ve found now that I&#8217;m reading a wider variety of blogs, is I&#8217;m educated in patterns enough to start to see where the same old thing is cropping up again and to begin to draw conclusions about what might be going on based on those patterns. </p>
<p>Watching the language used against feminists (strident, angry, man-hating, jealous) shift to women of color who critiqued other feminists (angry, woman-hating, jealous) was eye opening to me in how a lot of the underpinnings for these systemic biases are really an &#8220;us vs. them&#8221; mindset, and that both the mindset and that WOC bloggers weren&#8217;t part of the &#8220;us&#8221; of women and feminists was the problem, not one or the other, and that these two things bolster privilege.</p>
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