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	<title>Comments on: The washing machine liberated women</title>
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	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/10/the-washing-machine-liberated-women/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
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		<title>By: MOGU pillows does any1 kno how 2 wash them? &#124; My Massage Chair Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/10/the-washing-machine-liberated-women/#comment-231593</link>
		<dc:creator>MOGU pillows does any1 kno how 2 wash them? &#124; My Massage Chair Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12196#comment-231593</guid>
		<description>[...] Feministe » The washing machine liberated women    beads, squishy pillows, washing machine [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Feministe » The washing machine liberated women    beads, squishy pillows, washing machine [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kurz notiert zum Wochenanfang &#171; Maedchenmannschaft</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/10/the-washing-machine-liberated-women/#comment-231587</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurz notiert zum Wochenanfang &#171; Maedchenmannschaft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 18:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12196#comment-231587</guid>
		<description>[...] feministe.us berichtete, behauptet die Katholische Kirche nun, dass die Waschmaschine zur Befreiung der Frau geführt [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] feministe.us berichtete, behauptet die Katholische Kirche nun, dass die Waschmaschine zur Befreiung der Frau geführt [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Alara Rogers</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/10/the-washing-machine-liberated-women/#comment-230948</link>
		<dc:creator>Alara Rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12196#comment-230948</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The bottom line is that appliances (or pills, for that matter) don’t create social change. People do. &lt;/i&gt;

See, I totally disagree with this.

Well, not totally. People must create change. But the *environment* to create a change is created by technology. Women&#039;s liberation couldn&#039;t have had any success, no matter how many women railed against the inequalities of life, as long as women had no means of controlling their own reproduction... Mary Wollstonecraft, mother of the writer of Frankenstein, was an early feminist whose career in advocating for both human rights in general, and women&#039;s rights in particular, was cut short by death in childbirth. That kind of says it all right there. Childbirth needed to become something a woman could avoid, with safe technology that was under her control, and it needed to become something that kills very few women who do undertake it, before a society that pushes all women who have children into child care could produce enough women who were free from the burden of child care that they could create a social change.

Slavery was not eliminated in the North until after the North&#039;s industrialization made slavery less necessary. The South required slavery to maintain their agrarian economy, so they would not voluntarily get rid of it, but it took the North being free of slavery for many, many years before there could be a powerful enough abolitionist movement in the North that it could create serious opposition to the expansion of slavery, which is one of the proximate causes of the Civil War.

Yes, change won&#039;t occur until the people make it happen... but often, the people can&#039;t make it happen until a technological change occurs that allows large numbers of people to agree that the change in question can be implemented. (Sometimes the &quot;technology&quot; in question is a social science tech, rather than a physical science tech... for instance, it was the rise of the merchant classes in Europe that gave rise to the middle class and social mobility, which eventually gave rise to the Enlightenment and the notion that humans have inherent rights and that kings don&#039;t have a divine right to rule. And the rise of the merchant classes may have come about because of the invention of the corporation. Ironic that an invention which promoted human freedom and human rights at one point may now threaten it.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The bottom line is that appliances (or pills, for that matter) don’t create social change. People do. </i></p>
<p>See, I totally disagree with this.</p>
<p>Well, not totally. People must create change. But the *environment* to create a change is created by technology. Women&#8217;s liberation couldn&#8217;t have had any success, no matter how many women railed against the inequalities of life, as long as women had no means of controlling their own reproduction&#8230; Mary Wollstonecraft, mother of the writer of Frankenstein, was an early feminist whose career in advocating for both human rights in general, and women&#8217;s rights in particular, was cut short by death in childbirth. That kind of says it all right there. Childbirth needed to become something a woman could avoid, with safe technology that was under her control, and it needed to become something that kills very few women who do undertake it, before a society that pushes all women who have children into child care could produce enough women who were free from the burden of child care that they could create a social change.</p>
<p>Slavery was not eliminated in the North until after the North&#8217;s industrialization made slavery less necessary. The South required slavery to maintain their agrarian economy, so they would not voluntarily get rid of it, but it took the North being free of slavery for many, many years before there could be a powerful enough abolitionist movement in the North that it could create serious opposition to the expansion of slavery, which is one of the proximate causes of the Civil War.</p>
<p>Yes, change won&#8217;t occur until the people make it happen&#8230; but often, the people can&#8217;t make it happen until a technological change occurs that allows large numbers of people to agree that the change in question can be implemented. (Sometimes the &#8220;technology&#8221; in question is a social science tech, rather than a physical science tech&#8230; for instance, it was the rise of the merchant classes in Europe that gave rise to the middle class and social mobility, which eventually gave rise to the Enlightenment and the notion that humans have inherent rights and that kings don&#8217;t have a divine right to rule. And the rise of the merchant classes may have come about because of the invention of the corporation. Ironic that an invention which promoted human freedom and human rights at one point may now threaten it.)</p>
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		<title>By: Ellen</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/10/the-washing-machine-liberated-women/#comment-230908</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12196#comment-230908</guid>
		<description>In a way, this argument proves that what the Catholic church said is correct.  We are not even questioning the fact that laundry is still a woman&#039;s work.  

Hmmm?  Puts that failblog post in a new perspective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a way, this argument proves that what the Catholic church said is correct.  We are not even questioning the fact that laundry is still a woman&#8217;s work.  </p>
<p>Hmmm?  Puts that failblog post in a new perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellen</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/10/the-washing-machine-liberated-women/#comment-230906</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12196#comment-230906</guid>
		<description>@ Blitzgal, you are exactly right.  This is a very race and class based argument.  First, it was only a blip in time in the forties and fifties, when the middle class got larger, that women staying at home became the norm, but it certainly wasn&#039;t the norm for everyone, especially women of color who&#039;s husbands did not earn a family wage.  

Second, we have a really long way to go.  Yes, we now have washing machines.  That means we get to have a career and housework too.  

We do less housework than women did in the fifties.  But that is not because we have changed gender norms.  It is because standards of cleanliness have gotten lower.  And many middle class women can afford to contract out their housework to a less fortunate woman.

Since the fifties, men have doubled the amount of housework they do.  But when you double a tiny amount, it is still a tiny amount.  And when men do housework, they choose the more preferred jobs, such as cooking and shopping.  We are so grateful they are helping at all, and there is such a stigma attached to being a nag, that we are still not making them do the gross work like clean toilets.  Plus, traditionally male jobs are weekend jobs like trash or mowing the lawn.  Traditionally female jobs are every day, basically adding up to a second shift.  

Many women make their sons do housework, and not necessarily gender based work.  But when they see their fathers sitting on their ass, or doing the easier stuff, they are still more likely to sit on their ass when they grow up.  Thus perpetuating the cycle.

All of this is also very linked to the wage gap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Blitzgal, you are exactly right.  This is a very race and class based argument.  First, it was only a blip in time in the forties and fifties, when the middle class got larger, that women staying at home became the norm, but it certainly wasn&#8217;t the norm for everyone, especially women of color who&#8217;s husbands did not earn a family wage.  </p>
<p>Second, we have a really long way to go.  Yes, we now have washing machines.  That means we get to have a career and housework too.  </p>
<p>We do less housework than women did in the fifties.  But that is not because we have changed gender norms.  It is because standards of cleanliness have gotten lower.  And many middle class women can afford to contract out their housework to a less fortunate woman.</p>
<p>Since the fifties, men have doubled the amount of housework they do.  But when you double a tiny amount, it is still a tiny amount.  And when men do housework, they choose the more preferred jobs, such as cooking and shopping.  We are so grateful they are helping at all, and there is such a stigma attached to being a nag, that we are still not making them do the gross work like clean toilets.  Plus, traditionally male jobs are weekend jobs like trash or mowing the lawn.  Traditionally female jobs are every day, basically adding up to a second shift.  </p>
<p>Many women make their sons do housework, and not necessarily gender based work.  But when they see their fathers sitting on their ass, or doing the easier stuff, they are still more likely to sit on their ass when they grow up.  Thus perpetuating the cycle.</p>
<p>All of this is also very linked to the wage gap.</p>
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		<title>By: Atarun</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/10/the-washing-machine-liberated-women/#comment-230899</link>
		<dc:creator>Atarun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12196#comment-230899</guid>
		<description>It is not _complete_ bullshit... I mean it sure didn&#039;t liberate anyone, but it helped. It made life easier for many women.
I mean OK, it would be better if men and women shared house chores equally etc... but that&#039;s not close to happen, right? Meanwhile, the washing machine saved housewives (and on the long run everyone, including single guys who&#039;ve been liberated as well, in a sense) from hours of degrading and physically destructive labor.
When my mother liberated herself by going to work in a culture that wouldn&#039;t allow women to do that lightly, the first salary she got, you know what she did? She bought a washing machine for her mother.

It&#039;s not _absolute_ bullshit.
After that, it sure depends a lot on the way it&#039;s said ^^&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is not _complete_ bullshit&#8230; I mean it sure didn&#8217;t liberate anyone, but it helped. It made life easier for many women.<br />
I mean OK, it would be better if men and women shared house chores equally etc&#8230; but that&#8217;s not close to happen, right? Meanwhile, the washing machine saved housewives (and on the long run everyone, including single guys who&#8217;ve been liberated as well, in a sense) from hours of degrading and physically destructive labor.<br />
When my mother liberated herself by going to work in a culture that wouldn&#8217;t allow women to do that lightly, the first salary she got, you know what she did? She bought a washing machine for her mother.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not _absolute_ bullshit.<br />
After that, it sure depends a lot on the way it&#8217;s said ^^&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Blitzgal</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/10/the-washing-machine-liberated-women/#comment-230897</link>
		<dc:creator>Blitzgal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:53:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12196#comment-230897</guid>
		<description>One thing that really stuck out for me reading these comments is the number of times that people noted that households that could afford washing machines could also afford domestic help.  So while the women of those households were &quot;liberated&quot; by not having to do housework, other women (poor women) were still doing that work -- and working outside of their own homes to do it!  Which brings me back to my main point earlier and the biggest issue I have with the Catholic Church&#039;s proclamation.  A great deal of women have been toiling outside of the home for a long, long time.  There is a definite middle/upper class mindset to that article that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing that really stuck out for me reading these comments is the number of times that people noted that households that could afford washing machines could also afford domestic help.  So while the women of those households were &#8220;liberated&#8221; by not having to do housework, other women (poor women) were still doing that work &#8212; and working outside of their own homes to do it!  Which brings me back to my main point earlier and the biggest issue I have with the Catholic Church&#8217;s proclamation.  A great deal of women have been toiling outside of the home for a long, long time.  There is a definite middle/upper class mindset to that article that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/10/the-washing-machine-liberated-women/#comment-230863</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 04:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12196#comment-230863</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Labor saving devices are thought of as both cost savings and health saving (a lot of innovations help prevent repetitive-use injuries); it’s what is supposed to be, not viewed as a favor.&lt;/i&gt;

Yeah. Really, Labor-saving devices improve the &lt;i&gt;efficiency&lt;/i&gt; of women&#039;s efforts. This doesn&#039;t really translate into more time to do what you want, it just means that there&#039;s more energy to do more of that job!

Noone built a labor-saving device so that people could take a break. They built it to get more work out of you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Labor saving devices are thought of as both cost savings and health saving (a lot of innovations help prevent repetitive-use injuries); it’s what is supposed to be, not viewed as a favor.</i></p>
<p>Yeah. Really, Labor-saving devices improve the <i>efficiency</i> of women&#8217;s efforts. This doesn&#8217;t really translate into more time to do what you want, it just means that there&#8217;s more energy to do more of that job!</p>
<p>Noone built a labor-saving device so that people could take a break. They built it to get more work out of you.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellen</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/10/the-washing-machine-liberated-women/#comment-230862</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 04:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12196#comment-230862</guid>
		<description>The saddest thing is that women now have &quot;the right to work outside the home&quot; but the housework is still a woman&#039;s work.  For some reason the housework argument got dropped during the first wave of feminism.  I don&#039;t think we will have true equality until men are cleaning toilets in the same numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The saddest thing is that women now have &#8220;the right to work outside the home&#8221; but the housework is still a woman&#8217;s work.  For some reason the housework argument got dropped during the first wave of feminism.  I don&#8217;t think we will have true equality until men are cleaning toilets in the same numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: chingona</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/03/10/the-washing-machine-liberated-women/#comment-230852</link>
		<dc:creator>chingona</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 01:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=12196#comment-230852</guid>
		<description>I have a comment stuck in moderation for reasons that are not really clear to me. I think we are at cross purposes, so I&#039;m not going to belabor this too much, but the gist of what&#039;s in moderation is that it&#039;s not one machine, one innovation, but if you look at the collective set of innovations - which include all those things you mentioned, like having 12 pairs of underwear and having running water and not having to grind your own grain by hand or grow your own food and the list goes on - frees up a certain amount of space. No, these things aren&#039;t going to make anyone a feminist on their own, but they create a freedom that allows people who are feminist to actually act on their feminism. 

And we may just not agree on this, and that&#039;s fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a comment stuck in moderation for reasons that are not really clear to me. I think we are at cross purposes, so I&#8217;m not going to belabor this too much, but the gist of what&#8217;s in moderation is that it&#8217;s not one machine, one innovation, but if you look at the collective set of innovations &#8211; which include all those things you mentioned, like having 12 pairs of underwear and having running water and not having to grind your own grain by hand or grow your own food and the list goes on &#8211; frees up a certain amount of space. No, these things aren&#8217;t going to make anyone a feminist on their own, but they create a freedom that allows people who are feminist to actually act on their feminism. </p>
<p>And we may just not agree on this, and that&#8217;s fine.</p>
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