Comments on: What is this “mercy” you speak of?

By: Luna

Luna — Sat, 21 Mar 2009 00:33:20 +0000

“you are not allowed to have tubal ligation if you have a permanent medical condition that would make pregnancy lifethreatening.”

Depends on the bishop you ask.

By: Ismone

Ismone — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 00:10:16 +0000

Estraven,

The HIV thing is just sick. I told my dad, the non-Catholic, and he said whaa? It is one of those “got logic” moments. Really. Just like–you can remove the fallopian tube with the conceptus, but you can’t remove the conceptus from the tube. Way to condemn women with ectopics to only a 60% change of ever getting pregnant again. That is a sort of penny-wise, pound-foolish pro-life ethic.

By: estraven

estraven — Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:00:19 +0000

@Ismone: I stopped being catholic about 5 years ago, so you might be right. I know that having a spouse with AIDS is not enough justification enough to use a condom, and that you are not allowed to have tubal ligation if you have a permanent medical condition that would make pregnancy lifethreatening.
I’m also sure you’re allowed to take the pill for medical reasons if you don’t have sex :-).

@ACG: you’re so right. In particular, to be readmitted to church this woman would have to declare that she’s sorry. Sorry she saved her daughter’s life. I’m not sure I would be able to do that in her place (I have a 9-yr old daughter and this whole story has made my blood boil).

By: Vatican asserts control over raped 9-year-old’s uterus « The Bleeding Heart Show

Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:19:55 +0000

[...] been “treated with sweetness” and mercy rather than compounding her misery. As Jill reminds us, no church is monolothic and no faith can be applied dogmatically, regardless of context [...]

By: ACG

ACG — Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:16:26 +0000

I think (as a matter of fact, I’m pretty sure) this has been discussed in previous posts, but for someone significantly involved in the Catholic Church, excommunication is a bigger deal than it might seem. It’s not just refusal of communion; it’s refusal of all the sacraments, including matrimony, anointing of the sick, last rites, and even reconciliation (which can’t be administered until the person has been absolved and allowed back into the church). The person would be forbidden from participating in Mass and could, in some cases, even be forcibly removed from the church.

It all sounds kind of pointless to some, but for someone who is deeply connected to his or her Catholic faith (which I’m guessing this woman probably is), it’s a huge deal. It’s basically being shunned from the church community (which, in some places, is pretty much the entire community) and being condemned to Hell unless the bishop decides you’re sorry enough and lets you back in.

So, yeah, an excommunication for abortion is considerably more serious than punishment for murder in the eyes of the church. Shows you where their priorities are.

By: Mighty Ponygirl

Mighty Ponygirl — Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:43:58 +0000

The church is getting enough flack for this right now, so they’re going to wait quietly and then discipline Fisichella once people aren’t paying attention to the case anymore.

By: Ashley

Ashley — Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:48:31 +0000

In honor of St. Patrick’s Day, I have to mention this.

The early Irish church used to be pro-abortion. Not pro-choice, pro-abortion. If you read the sources from pre-1100 on St. Brigid and St. Patrick, you’ll find situations like how Patrick declared that if a nun were to get pregnant and abort, she’d have to do 2 years of penance, but if she kept the kid she’d do 7 years, or how St. Brigid would perform miraculous abortions on her nuns that got pregnant.

None of the hardcore Irish Catholics I know believe me when I tell them this, but it’s there.

By: Ismone

Ismone — Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:21:18 +0000

Estraven,

I understood that people with PCOS and other hormonal issues could take the pill–that there was a dispensation. I also thought there was a mother’s life exception, but it has been years since I have seen my catechism.

By: sly c

sly c — Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:16:07 +0000

excommunication, like other church law functions, only applies to Catholics. So to Red Glasses, the idea is that any Catholic should already know this. So if they have or assist in an abortion, even if unknown to anyone else, they know that they should consider themselves excommunicated. It’s entirely possible to incur an automatic expulsion, yet still attend church. It just adds another no-no, taking communion in an unworthy state.

By: Lis

Lis — Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:14:56 +0000

ThickRedGlasses, SarahMC: Excommunication means that the person in question can’t receive Communion. Anyone in a state of mortal sin (like a murderer) cannot receive communion, and must confess and repent to a priest to be welcomed back into communion. Anyone in a state of excommunication must do the same thing to their bishop, or the Pope. Quite often this isn’t policed–you’re just expected to know that if you’re in a state of mortal sin, you can’t go up for Communion.

Yes, there is a difference, and I think it’s wrong–but it’s not as big of a difference as some people think.