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	<title>Comments on: So this is what &#8220;common ground&#8221; looks like?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/05/so-this-is-what-common-ground-looks-like/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/05/so-this-is-what-common-ground-looks-like/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:14:04 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/05/so-this-is-what-common-ground-looks-like/#comment-244714</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 22:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=13754#comment-244714</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The alternative to Hershele Ostroper’s theory that Obama either wants everyone to like him or that he actually is anti-choice is that he actually, sincerely wants to find common ground among people who see their views as irreducibly opposed. He might even actually think that’s how democracy works.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m reminded of something Warren Ellis had to say about that brand of democracy. I&#039;m pretty sure it&#039;d be inappropriate for this blog, but the gist of it is simple: imagine you&#039;re locked in a room with 99 people who want to do you harm and the 100 of you have to vote on how you&#039;re spending your evening.

Thats the problem with finding common ground, thats the problem with democracy. There are some lines which cannot be crossed, some rights which simply cannot be infringed upon, abridged, or compromised over. Any common ground in a situation like this necessarily means that the side who is trying to merely maintain their rights is going to be oppressed. The only power they have is to try to hold back how badly they&#039;re going to be oppressed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The alternative to Hershele Ostroper’s theory that Obama either wants everyone to like him or that he actually is anti-choice is that he actually, sincerely wants to find common ground among people who see their views as irreducibly opposed. He might even actually think that’s how democracy works.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m reminded of something Warren Ellis had to say about that brand of democracy. I&#8217;m pretty sure it&#8217;d be inappropriate for this blog, but the gist of it is simple: imagine you&#8217;re locked in a room with 99 people who want to do you harm and the 100 of you have to vote on how you&#8217;re spending your evening.</p>
<p>Thats the problem with finding common ground, thats the problem with democracy. There are some lines which cannot be crossed, some rights which simply cannot be infringed upon, abridged, or compromised over. Any common ground in a situation like this necessarily means that the side who is trying to merely maintain their rights is going to be oppressed. The only power they have is to try to hold back how badly they&#8217;re going to be oppressed.</p>
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		<title>By: JessSnark</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/05/so-this-is-what-common-ground-looks-like/#comment-244710</link>
		<dc:creator>JessSnark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:56:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=13754#comment-244710</guid>
		<description>PNTS says 
&lt;i&gt; I can’t help but note the irony of beginning a post by saying “I was all for common ground rhetoric” and then concluding by saying “but geez, not if it means I have to work with people who I disagree with.” &lt;/i&gt;

Jill&#039;s not complaining about having to work with people she disagrees with. She&#039;s pointing out that there isn&#039;t really common ground with groups that don&#039;t even believe in contraception. There is common ground to be had with some people who call themselves pro-life, and Jill describes what that common ground is: 
&lt;i&gt; abortion reduction through contraception, poverty alleviation, and increased gender equality &lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PNTS says<br />
<i> I can’t help but note the irony of beginning a post by saying “I was all for common ground rhetoric” and then concluding by saying “but geez, not if it means I have to work with people who I disagree with.” </i></p>
<p>Jill&#8217;s not complaining about having to work with people she disagrees with. She&#8217;s pointing out that there isn&#8217;t really common ground with groups that don&#8217;t even believe in contraception. There is common ground to be had with some people who call themselves pro-life, and Jill describes what that common ground is:<br />
<i> abortion reduction through contraception, poverty alleviation, and increased gender equality </i></p>
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		<title>By: Hershele Ostropoler</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/05/so-this-is-what-common-ground-looks-like/#comment-244702</link>
		<dc:creator>Hershele Ostropoler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 18:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=13754#comment-244702</guid>
		<description>Fortunately, I don&#039;t punctuate for a living. That first one should be &quot;wants,&quot; obviously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fortunately, I don&#8217;t punctuate for a living. That first one should be &#8220;wants,&#8221; obviously.</p>
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		<title>By: Hershele Ostropoler</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/05/so-this-is-what-common-ground-looks-like/#comment-244701</link>
		<dc:creator>Hershele Ostropoler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 18:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=13754#comment-244701</guid>
		<description>PNTS, I spin for a living. If I were working for a politician who wanted everyone to like him, I think &quot;common ground&quot; is one of the phrases I&#039;d use. So what I&#039;m reading you as saying is &quot;it&#039;s not that he want&#039;s to be liked or that he hates women, it&#039;s that he wants to be liked.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PNTS, I spin for a living. If I were working for a politician who wanted everyone to like him, I think &#8220;common ground&#8221; is one of the phrases I&#8217;d use. So what I&#8217;m reading you as saying is &#8220;it&#8217;s not that he want&#8217;s to be liked or that he hates women, it&#8217;s that he wants to be liked.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: piny</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/05/so-this-is-what-common-ground-looks-like/#comment-244699</link>
		<dc:creator>piny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 17:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=13754#comment-244699</guid>
		<description>The ostensible &quot;common ground&quot; is reducing the number of abortions, either as a direct goal or an indirect result.  Nobody wants women to be forced into reproductive decisions they wouldn&#039;t make if their options weren&#039;t so uniformly shitty.  I don&#039;t want a woman to have to get an abortion because she can&#039;t afford the family she wants.  I don&#039;t want a woman to have to get an abortion because her access to birth control is compromised, or her decision to take it challenged.  We almost certainly can use social policy to reduce the number of unplanned, unwanted pregnancies.   

If we agree on that goal, then we can find some compromises in programs for alleviating poverty, support for new mothers, social and academic support for pregnant teenagers, pre-and perinatal care, and--arguably most importantly--family planning.  

However, if their goal is punishing female sexual behavior, and our goal is respecting female reproductive decisions, then...we don&#039;t have common ground on this issue.  We don&#039;t even have amenable effective outcomes.  If they want to make birth control less accessible, their policies are directly in opposition to their stated goals, our actual goals, and the beliefs held by a strong majority of Americans.  The ground they&#039;ve staked out isn&#039;t common.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ostensible &#8220;common ground&#8221; is reducing the number of abortions, either as a direct goal or an indirect result.  Nobody wants women to be forced into reproductive decisions they wouldn&#8217;t make if their options weren&#8217;t so uniformly shitty.  I don&#8217;t want a woman to have to get an abortion because she can&#8217;t afford the family she wants.  I don&#8217;t want a woman to have to get an abortion because her access to birth control is compromised, or her decision to take it challenged.  We almost certainly can use social policy to reduce the number of unplanned, unwanted pregnancies.   </p>
<p>If we agree on that goal, then we can find some compromises in programs for alleviating poverty, support for new mothers, social and academic support for pregnant teenagers, pre-and perinatal care, and&#8211;arguably most importantly&#8211;family planning.  </p>
<p>However, if their goal is punishing female sexual behavior, and our goal is respecting female reproductive decisions, then&#8230;we don&#8217;t have common ground on this issue.  We don&#8217;t even have amenable effective outcomes.  If they want to make birth control less accessible, their policies are directly in opposition to their stated goals, our actual goals, and the beliefs held by a strong majority of Americans.  The ground they&#8217;ve staked out isn&#8217;t common.</p>
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		<title>By: prefer not to say</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/05/so-this-is-what-common-ground-looks-like/#comment-244698</link>
		<dc:creator>prefer not to say</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 17:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=13754#comment-244698</guid>
		<description>I appreciate what you are saying, and think that the issue of birth control in working all this out is far from simple.  But I can&#039;t help but note the irony of beginning a post by saying &quot;I was all for common ground rhetoric&quot; and then concluding by saying &quot;but geez, not if it means I have to work with people who I disagree with.&quot; 

That&#039;s common ground. 

The alternative to Hershele Ostroper&#039;s theory that Obama either wants everyone to like him or that he actually is anti-choice is that he actually, sincerely wants to find common ground among people who see their views as irreducibly opposed. He might even actually think that&#039;s how democracy works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate what you are saying, and think that the issue of birth control in working all this out is far from simple.  But I can&#8217;t help but note the irony of beginning a post by saying &#8220;I was all for common ground rhetoric&#8221; and then concluding by saying &#8220;but geez, not if it means I have to work with people who I disagree with.&#8221; </p>
<p>That&#8217;s common ground. </p>
<p>The alternative to Hershele Ostroper&#8217;s theory that Obama either wants everyone to like him or that he actually is anti-choice is that he actually, sincerely wants to find common ground among people who see their views as irreducibly opposed. He might even actually think that&#8217;s how democracy works.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa A.</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/05/so-this-is-what-common-ground-looks-like/#comment-244663</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 08:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=13754#comment-244663</guid>
		<description>Remember, to these people there is no real difference between contraception and abortion. They are morally equivalent. They might have the good sense not to say that in public, but for the forced-birth crowd abortion is simply the more serviceable argument for the current political climate.

They&#039;re saying it in public:

&quot;Right-Wing Protesters: Birth Control Will Kill You&quot;


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/05/right-wing-protestors-bir_n_212030.html
							BTW I love your blog!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remember, to these people there is no real difference between contraception and abortion. They are morally equivalent. They might have the good sense not to say that in public, but for the forced-birth crowd abortion is simply the more serviceable argument for the current political climate.</p>
<p>They&#8217;re saying it in public:</p>
<p>&#8220;Right-Wing Protesters: Birth Control Will Kill You&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/05/right-wing-protestors-bir_n_212030.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/05/right-wing-protestors-bir_n_212030.html</a><br />
							BTW I love your blog!</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa A.</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/05/so-this-is-what-common-ground-looks-like/#comment-244646</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 02:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=13754#comment-244646</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Remember, to these people there is no real difference between contraception and abortion. They are morally equivalent. They might have the good sense not to say that in public, but for the forced-birth crowd abortion is simply the more serviceable argument for the current political climate.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

They&#039;re saying it in public:

&quot;Right-Wing Protesters: Birth Control Will Kill You&quot;


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/05/right-wing-protestors-bir_n_212030.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Remember, to these people there is no real difference between contraception and abortion. They are morally equivalent. They might have the good sense not to say that in public, but for the forced-birth crowd abortion is simply the more serviceable argument for the current political climate.</p></blockquote>
<p>They&#8217;re saying it in public:</p>
<p>&#8220;Right-Wing Protesters: Birth Control Will Kill You&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/05/right-wing-protestors-bir_n_212030.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/05/right-wing-protestors-bir_n_212030.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/05/so-this-is-what-common-ground-looks-like/#comment-244635</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 23:44:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=13754#comment-244635</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Doesn’t she then have a moral obligation to suck it up and start pushing contraception? &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Of course not. Remember, to these people there is no real difference between contraception and abortion. They are morally equivalent. They might have the good sense not to say that in public, but for the forced-birth crowd abortion is simply the more serviceable argument for the current political climate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Doesn’t she then have a moral obligation to suck it up and start pushing contraception? </p></blockquote>
<p>Of course not. Remember, to these people there is no real difference between contraception and abortion. They are morally equivalent. They might have the good sense not to say that in public, but for the forced-birth crowd abortion is simply the more serviceable argument for the current political climate.</p>
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		<title>By: Hershele Ostropoler</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/05/so-this-is-what-common-ground-looks-like/#comment-244623</link>
		<dc:creator>Hershele Ostropoler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 22:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=13754#comment-244623</guid>
		<description>Obama seems to be falling into the same trap as a lot of liberals who aren&#039;t David Patterson: they want everyone to like them. That they&#039;ll never, ever win over the far right is tremendously upsetting; few Democrats are willing to say &quot;well, the farthest-right 20% of the electorate isn&#039;t going to support me anyway, so there&#039;s no point in making conciliatory gestures that will upset my base.&quot;

Alternatively, of course, Obama is simply anti-choice. I&#039;m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama seems to be falling into the same trap as a lot of liberals who aren&#8217;t David Patterson: they want everyone to like them. That they&#8217;ll never, ever win over the far right is tremendously upsetting; few Democrats are willing to say &#8220;well, the farthest-right 20% of the electorate isn&#8217;t going to support me anyway, so there&#8217;s no point in making conciliatory gestures that will upset my base.&#8221;</p>
<p>Alternatively, of course, Obama is simply anti-choice. I&#8217;m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, though.</p>
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