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	<title>Comments on: Do Me a Favor&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/27/do-me-a-favor/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/27/do-me-a-favor/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:12:24 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Boy or girl? &#171; Wallaby</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/27/do-me-a-favor/#comment-268604</link>
		<dc:creator>Boy or girl? &#171; Wallaby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 05:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14119#comment-268604</guid>
		<description>[...] are doing. (I first came across that link a while ago, I think through blue milk, and I also found Holly&#8217;s post at Feministe &#8211; and the comment thread there &#8211; very [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] are doing. (I first came across that link a while ago, I think through blue milk, and I also found Holly&#8217;s post at Feministe &#8211; and the comment thread there &#8211; very [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Reading and Assignment for Week 2 &#171; Women, Culture, and Identity</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/27/do-me-a-favor/#comment-252322</link>
		<dc:creator>Reading and Assignment for Week 2 &#171; Women, Culture, and Identity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14119#comment-252322</guid>
		<description>[...] a Secret, and here&#8217;s a post from the feminist blogosphere with some thoughtful commentary: Do Me a Favor.  Readings for Tuesday [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a Secret, and here&#8217;s a post from the feminist blogosphere with some thoughtful commentary: Do Me a Favor.  Readings for Tuesday [...]</p>
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		<title>By: More Than the Sum of Hir Parts - The Pursuit of Harpyness</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/27/do-me-a-favor/#comment-249369</link>
		<dc:creator>More Than the Sum of Hir Parts - The Pursuit of Harpyness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:02:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14119#comment-249369</guid>
		<description>[...] I say. Others, however, have reacted with horror and amazement. Even some commenters on this post at Feministe are aghast. Holly supports these parents&#8217; decision and offers compelling reasons [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I say. Others, however, have reacted with horror and amazement. Even some commenters on this post at Feministe are aghast. Holly supports these parents&#8217; decision and offers compelling reasons [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Abi (UK)</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/27/do-me-a-favor/#comment-248839</link>
		<dc:creator>Abi (UK)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:36:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14119#comment-248839</guid>
		<description>Children do not understand the concept of gender until between the ages of 4 and 6yrs dependant on development.  So why would this be a problem if they have no concept of the difference between boy and girl.  

But parents do force a gender on the child with the whole blue/pink and dolls or toy cars thing. Allowing a child to just experience the world and where they fit in.  Be that male/female/gender queer a child should be free to explore it all without being told that&#039;s good or bad behaviour and thus enforcing one gender or the other on the child.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Children do not understand the concept of gender until between the ages of 4 and 6yrs dependant on development.  So why would this be a problem if they have no concept of the difference between boy and girl.  </p>
<p>But parents do force a gender on the child with the whole blue/pink and dolls or toy cars thing. Allowing a child to just experience the world and where they fit in.  Be that male/female/gender queer a child should be free to explore it all without being told that&#8217;s good or bad behaviour and thus enforcing one gender or the other on the child.</p>
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		<title>By: Little Sara</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/27/do-me-a-favor/#comment-248543</link>
		<dc:creator>Little Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:03:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14119#comment-248543</guid>
		<description>&quot;In my opinion, I would rather raise my child knowing it’s gender, but remind it that it should never have to feel limited to that, or to anything people might tell them is proper for a girl or a boy.&quot;

You can know your sex, or well, to an extent anyway, but you can&#039;t just &quot;see&quot; your gender, nor can anyone else. You &quot;know&quot; your gender. It is unknowable by all but the one concerned.

I say &quot;to an extent&quot; for sex, because nothing is clear cut. I got a penis, but I resist testosterone at the genetic level. I&#039;m obviously underdevelopped for a male, so much that I don&#039;t look male, save for genitals. Legally I classify as male, but meh, legal classifications are obvious simplifications.

Knowing your gender takes tons of introspection, asking the right questions, mostly to yourself, and some experience. It may have taken a lot of work, but I&#039;m glad for it. I&#039;m better off for it than the average woman who&#039;s never questioned her gender (not stereotypes or anything, but how she knows she is female &#039;inside&#039;, where it counts). I don&#039;t need to rely on stereotypes, and I actively shun many of them. Not as a political action, but simply because it doesn&#039;t suit the real me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In my opinion, I would rather raise my child knowing it’s gender, but remind it that it should never have to feel limited to that, or to anything people might tell them is proper for a girl or a boy.&#8221;</p>
<p>You can know your sex, or well, to an extent anyway, but you can&#8217;t just &#8220;see&#8221; your gender, nor can anyone else. You &#8220;know&#8221; your gender. It is unknowable by all but the one concerned.</p>
<p>I say &#8220;to an extent&#8221; for sex, because nothing is clear cut. I got a penis, but I resist testosterone at the genetic level. I&#8217;m obviously underdevelopped for a male, so much that I don&#8217;t look male, save for genitals. Legally I classify as male, but meh, legal classifications are obvious simplifications.</p>
<p>Knowing your gender takes tons of introspection, asking the right questions, mostly to yourself, and some experience. It may have taken a lot of work, but I&#8217;m glad for it. I&#8217;m better off for it than the average woman who&#8217;s never questioned her gender (not stereotypes or anything, but how she knows she is female &#8216;inside&#8217;, where it counts). I don&#8217;t need to rely on stereotypes, and I actively shun many of them. Not as a political action, but simply because it doesn&#8217;t suit the real me.</p>
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		<title>By: Little Sara</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/27/do-me-a-favor/#comment-248538</link>
		<dc:creator>Little Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14119#comment-248538</guid>
		<description>&quot;But by two years, to what extent does dressing a boy in dresses and giving him long hair or dressing a girl in boy’s clothes (which are similar to what a lot of boys wear anyway) and giving her short hair make the child look like the opposite sex?&quot;

The changing will look weird if going girl one day, boy the next. But passing a child as the opposite sex? Extremely easy until puberty. Same voice, same height, same weight, same build. How do you think I can be seen as a cissexual girl so easily even if I never had the required equipment? I didn&#039;t develop much. No puberty, no maleness, simple. Estrogen gave me breasts, and voila. 

And I&#039;m 24. A 8 years old at random could pull it off. Puberty is what complicates things for trans folks, not their &quot;innate differences&quot; biologically speaking. Only swimsuits and panties might cause issues (they&#039;re too tight to hide anything).

&quot;I want to specify that even if I’m doubtful this could continue until the child identifies with a gender (around 3 right?) &quot;

I don&#039;t remember anything before 5, and I don&#039;t remember figuring anything before I was 8. And then I dismissed it as fabulation. I only took it seriously at about 21-22. The only proof I have that I&#039;ve been younger than 5, is a video of my 2nd birthday (in beta, later transferred to VHS), and pictures.

I&#039;m pretty sure it varies from child to child, some say they can remember at 2 clearly feeling like a boy, or a girl. I don&#039;t remember even knowing boys and girls were different then. And I figured the anatomy was different with a book, at 8.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But by two years, to what extent does dressing a boy in dresses and giving him long hair or dressing a girl in boy’s clothes (which are similar to what a lot of boys wear anyway) and giving her short hair make the child look like the opposite sex?&#8221;</p>
<p>The changing will look weird if going girl one day, boy the next. But passing a child as the opposite sex? Extremely easy until puberty. Same voice, same height, same weight, same build. How do you think I can be seen as a cissexual girl so easily even if I never had the required equipment? I didn&#8217;t develop much. No puberty, no maleness, simple. Estrogen gave me breasts, and voila. </p>
<p>And I&#8217;m 24. A 8 years old at random could pull it off. Puberty is what complicates things for trans folks, not their &#8220;innate differences&#8221; biologically speaking. Only swimsuits and panties might cause issues (they&#8217;re too tight to hide anything).</p>
<p>&#8220;I want to specify that even if I’m doubtful this could continue until the child identifies with a gender (around 3 right?) &#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t remember anything before 5, and I don&#8217;t remember figuring anything before I was 8. And then I dismissed it as fabulation. I only took it seriously at about 21-22. The only proof I have that I&#8217;ve been younger than 5, is a video of my 2nd birthday (in beta, later transferred to VHS), and pictures.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure it varies from child to child, some say they can remember at 2 clearly feeling like a boy, or a girl. I don&#8217;t remember even knowing boys and girls were different then. And I figured the anatomy was different with a book, at 8.</p>
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		<title>By: Anya</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/27/do-me-a-favor/#comment-248537</link>
		<dc:creator>Anya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14119#comment-248537</guid>
		<description>From a strictly feminist point of view, I kind of feel like hiding the gender of the child is working backwards. By not letting the child know it&#039;s gender you&#039;re demonstrating that gender &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; some kind of a big deal, and there is clearly more than a bit of skin involved. Furthermore with people constantly asking about the gender of the child, the kid might feel that the reason their parents are trying to hide the gender is clearly because some kind of a major societal diference. In my opinion, I would rather raise my child knowing it&#039;s gender, but remind it that it should never have to feel limited to that, or to anything people might tell them is proper for a girl or a boy.

Now, of course, the child in question might not ever feel that way at all, and certainly not while he/she&#039;s under 3 years old.

For someone who is more concerned with gender and trnasgender issues on the whole, I do understand why you would want to raise your child in such a way, and I agree with what some other people have said about the bigger problem being how &lt;i&gt;other&lt;/i&gt; people treat them vs. how they themselves. It is true that people will base many compliments off of gender and what we generally see as &quot;success&quot; from those genders in today&#039;s society (aka pretty, big, strong, whatever).

All in all I feel as though there can be harm done by it, and I&#039;d be interested to catch up with this couple a few years down the road to see how they felt it worked out. Like I said, it&#039;s not something I can see myself doing but I don&#039;t think it&#039;s wrong or &quot;disgusting&quot;. What I do find wrong and disgusting is that we live in a world where someone who wants to promote gender equality in such a fashion has to go about it by hiding their baby&#039;s gender!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From a strictly feminist point of view, I kind of feel like hiding the gender of the child is working backwards. By not letting the child know it&#8217;s gender you&#8217;re demonstrating that gender <i>is</i> some kind of a big deal, and there is clearly more than a bit of skin involved. Furthermore with people constantly asking about the gender of the child, the kid might feel that the reason their parents are trying to hide the gender is clearly because some kind of a major societal diference. In my opinion, I would rather raise my child knowing it&#8217;s gender, but remind it that it should never have to feel limited to that, or to anything people might tell them is proper for a girl or a boy.</p>
<p>Now, of course, the child in question might not ever feel that way at all, and certainly not while he/she&#8217;s under 3 years old.</p>
<p>For someone who is more concerned with gender and trnasgender issues on the whole, I do understand why you would want to raise your child in such a way, and I agree with what some other people have said about the bigger problem being how <i>other</i> people treat them vs. how they themselves. It is true that people will base many compliments off of gender and what we generally see as &#8220;success&#8221; from those genders in today&#8217;s society (aka pretty, big, strong, whatever).</p>
<p>All in all I feel as though there can be harm done by it, and I&#8217;d be interested to catch up with this couple a few years down the road to see how they felt it worked out. Like I said, it&#8217;s not something I can see myself doing but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s wrong or &#8220;disgusting&#8221;. What I do find wrong and disgusting is that we live in a world where someone who wants to promote gender equality in such a fashion has to go about it by hiding their baby&#8217;s gender!</p>
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		<title>By: Little Sara</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/27/do-me-a-favor/#comment-248533</link>
		<dc:creator>Little Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:06:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14119#comment-248533</guid>
		<description>@Laura

&quot;I’m also wondering if, in the case of transgendered children, NOT assigning gender at all and waiting for the child to self-identify is preferable to assuming gender but being open to the fact that one’s child may be transgendered and changing your behavior in the case that the child expresses a transgendered identity. Psychologically, what would the implications of being referred to as one gender until one self-identified as the opposite gender (and then being accepted and referred to as one’s self-identified gender) versus being referred to as non-gendered until one self-identified as a gender?&quot;

If it&#039;s anything like how it worked on my extended family:

After 3 years of transition, I&#039;m still seen as male even though I look nothing like it. More than the occasional name and pronoun slip. I cut off half my extended family (father&#039;s side) more or less over that.

They don&#039;t see my &quot;femaleness&quot; on par with my &quot;maleness&quot;, to them I am not too far from a deceiver. Keep in mind, they&#039;re still pretty progressive people, and none have made threats or disowned me or anything even close.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Laura</p>
<p>&#8220;I’m also wondering if, in the case of transgendered children, NOT assigning gender at all and waiting for the child to self-identify is preferable to assuming gender but being open to the fact that one’s child may be transgendered and changing your behavior in the case that the child expresses a transgendered identity. Psychologically, what would the implications of being referred to as one gender until one self-identified as the opposite gender (and then being accepted and referred to as one’s self-identified gender) versus being referred to as non-gendered until one self-identified as a gender?&#8221;</p>
<p>If it&#8217;s anything like how it worked on my extended family:</p>
<p>After 3 years of transition, I&#8217;m still seen as male even though I look nothing like it. More than the occasional name and pronoun slip. I cut off half my extended family (father&#8217;s side) more or less over that.</p>
<p>They don&#8217;t see my &#8220;femaleness&#8221; on par with my &#8220;maleness&#8221;, to them I am not too far from a deceiver. Keep in mind, they&#8217;re still pretty progressive people, and none have made threats or disowned me or anything even close.</p>
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		<title>By: Little Sara</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/27/do-me-a-favor/#comment-248530</link>
		<dc:creator>Little Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14119#comment-248530</guid>
		<description>&quot;Are there things we can do to not put gender stereotypes on our children? Yes! In fact, I think that is the more socially responsible thing to do - to raise our children to understand and push beyond gender stereotypes, to lay a foundation that they do not have to *do* or *be* any particular way to be a boy or girl. Then, if the child is transgendered, they have more flexibility to move towards that identity, rather than being handed a very rigid view of the sex and gender associations and having to unlearn all of that.&quot;

This would have confused me probably. Well it did. My parents were not too rigid about gender roles and stuff. My father wanted me to play hockey, and baseball, but he abandoned when it seemed hopeless. Keep in mind my younger brother (2 years younger), a pretty macho manly-looking guy, also stopped sports then. I didn&#039;t see it as indicating I should be female.

In fact, it took me two decades to figure out that stereotypes didn&#039;t matter and that the answer was deeper within than pink and blue, walking this or that way, etc.

Telling me I can be &quot;my own kind of boy&quot; is what I did to myself, for years. Whenever a confrontation a la sex wars came up, I used myself as an example to say &quot;not all boys are like that&quot; as I was so radically different in how I thought. Turns out being &quot;my own kind of boy&quot; doesn&#039;t work. I&#039;m part of the 1/3 that will always be female whatever you do, however raised etc. I just wish I&#039;d figured that sooner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Are there things we can do to not put gender stereotypes on our children? Yes! In fact, I think that is the more socially responsible thing to do &#8211; to raise our children to understand and push beyond gender stereotypes, to lay a foundation that they do not have to *do* or *be* any particular way to be a boy or girl. Then, if the child is transgendered, they have more flexibility to move towards that identity, rather than being handed a very rigid view of the sex and gender associations and having to unlearn all of that.&#8221;</p>
<p>This would have confused me probably. Well it did. My parents were not too rigid about gender roles and stuff. My father wanted me to play hockey, and baseball, but he abandoned when it seemed hopeless. Keep in mind my younger brother (2 years younger), a pretty macho manly-looking guy, also stopped sports then. I didn&#8217;t see it as indicating I should be female.</p>
<p>In fact, it took me two decades to figure out that stereotypes didn&#8217;t matter and that the answer was deeper within than pink and blue, walking this or that way, etc.</p>
<p>Telling me I can be &#8220;my own kind of boy&#8221; is what I did to myself, for years. Whenever a confrontation a la sex wars came up, I used myself as an example to say &#8220;not all boys are like that&#8221; as I was so radically different in how I thought. Turns out being &#8220;my own kind of boy&#8221; doesn&#8217;t work. I&#8217;m part of the 1/3 that will always be female whatever you do, however raised etc. I just wish I&#8217;d figured that sooner.</p>
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		<title>By: Newbomb Turk</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/27/do-me-a-favor/#comment-248347</link>
		<dc:creator>Newbomb Turk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 21:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14119#comment-248347</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m serious. I think this kind of experiment with a small child is pure child abuse. You can try to raise a short kid to think he or she is tall or vice versa or somewhere in between.  Guess what happens when the kid comes into contact with other kids who are short, tall, or neither? The game is up and the kid realizes his or her parents at best are idiots. 

If you want to break down narrow thinking on gender roles you teach a kid that being male, female or hermaphrodite is not a choice and people should be proud to be what they are. This is the way enlightened people teach kids about religious or ethnic differences. They don&#039;t pretend that everyone is white and that being Hispanic, Asian or Black is just a &quot;social construct&quot;. You also don&#039;t pretend that all people are straight and that homo-, bi-, and asexual preferences are &quot;social constructs&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m serious. I think this kind of experiment with a small child is pure child abuse. You can try to raise a short kid to think he or she is tall or vice versa or somewhere in between.  Guess what happens when the kid comes into contact with other kids who are short, tall, or neither? The game is up and the kid realizes his or her parents at best are idiots. </p>
<p>If you want to break down narrow thinking on gender roles you teach a kid that being male, female or hermaphrodite is not a choice and people should be proud to be what they are. This is the way enlightened people teach kids about religious or ethnic differences. They don&#8217;t pretend that everyone is white and that being Hispanic, Asian or Black is just a &#8220;social construct&#8221;. You also don&#8217;t pretend that all people are straight and that homo-, bi-, and asexual preferences are &#8220;social constructs&#8221;.</p>
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