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	<title>Comments on: Baby taken away after mom refuses C-section</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/baby-taken-away-after-mom-refuses-c-section/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/baby-taken-away-after-mom-refuses-c-section/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:50:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/baby-taken-away-after-mom-refuses-c-section/#comment-267240</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 21:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14916#comment-267240</guid>
		<description>The staff at St. Barnabas hospital is delusional in that they believe they have the right to force medication, sugery, testing 
and treatment on pregnant women and they use the threat of
calling child protective services(called DYFS in N.J.) if the pregnant women try to exercise their right to fefuse medical
treatment.  There is something very wrong at that hospital.  In
addition, the DRS. at St. Barnabas allow the nursing staff to make the medical decisions for the patients and the nurses make
comments that they will lie to the DRS. and get the DRS. to
believe.  If that isn&#039;t sociopathic behavior then I don&#039;t know what
is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The staff at St. Barnabas hospital is delusional in that they believe they have the right to force medication, sugery, testing<br />
and treatment on pregnant women and they use the threat of<br />
calling child protective services(called DYFS in N.J.) if the pregnant women try to exercise their right to fefuse medical<br />
treatment.  There is something very wrong at that hospital.  In<br />
addition, the DRS. at St. Barnabas allow the nursing staff to make the medical decisions for the patients and the nurses make<br />
comments that they will lie to the DRS. and get the DRS. to<br />
believe.  If that isn&#8217;t sociopathic behavior then I don&#8217;t know what<br />
is.</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/baby-taken-away-after-mom-refuses-c-section/#comment-259179</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14916#comment-259179</guid>
		<description>Ahh, gotcha. I had gotten a somewhat different impression of your post. Apologies and all that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahh, gotcha. I had gotten a somewhat different impression of your post. Apologies and all that.</p>
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		<title>By: uccellina</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/baby-taken-away-after-mom-refuses-c-section/#comment-259097</link>
		<dc:creator>uccellina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14916#comment-259097</guid>
		<description>William - Actually, I completely agree with everything you&#039;ve said here.  Maybe I didn&#039;t express myself well, but all this is what I was getting at. The OP makes no mention of mental illness or race, and the Roth article touches on the former only to dismiss its relevance. That is why it was oversimplifying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William &#8211; Actually, I completely agree with everything you&#8217;ve said here.  Maybe I didn&#8217;t express myself well, but all this is what I was getting at. The OP makes no mention of mental illness or race, and the Roth article touches on the former only to dismiss its relevance. That is why it was oversimplifying.</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/baby-taken-away-after-mom-refuses-c-section/#comment-259091</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14916#comment-259091</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Jenna, okay, not misleading. How about oversimplifying? &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t think its an oversimplification. While there might have been other factors besides her refusal of the C-Section which lead to her child being taken away, we cannot know how many of these factors either run to the same source or are tainted. The mere suspicion of mental illness radically changes the way in which doctors interpret even normal behaviors. To borrow from Laing, once you&#039;ve entered the asylum you will always be walking through it&#039;s doors. Ultimately all of the write ups, all of the interpretations, all of the other factors which surround this case likely have a great deal to do with the interpretations staff made based upon the mother&#039;s status as mentally ill and her decision the narcissistic injury they received as a result of this crazy woman refusing their good judgment.

&lt;blockquote&gt; I think you raise a very interesting and relevant point: How frequently are the rights of people with documented history of treatment for mental illness violated re: bodily autonomy, particularly in childbirth? Probably a lot.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not probably a lot. The rights of the mad are universally and constantly violated. Right now I work at a county hospital in a major metropolitan area doing psych intakes and individual therapy. Abuse of patients is rampant and the ways in which the judgment and autonomy of patients is treated is frankly horrifying. The fact that the hospital called for a second consult, the fact that they couldn&#039;t convince the first on-call doctor to play ball, is in itself strong evidence that the staff in question was out of control. Calling someone crazy is the first cudgel doctors reach for when someone gets uppity with them.

&lt;blockquote&gt;How might racism have factored into this incident?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Thats what I think you&#039;re missing. The medicalization of childbirth for women who cannot afford higher levels of treatment, the high c-section rate that has a good deal to do with moving people out of valuable spaces quickly and generating more dollars for doctors and hospitals, the autonomy of bodies, the way the mad are abused, the racism that shades all of these interactions, you cannot separate these things. Its all part of the same game. These are different levels of power which are used to control bodies. Her anger was invalid because she was crazy or of color, her belief in discrimination was paranoia because staff didn&#039;t see it (which provides more evidence for calling her crazy), her refusal of the c-section showed she wasn&#039;t thinking properly because doctors thought it was the right idea and she isn&#039;t a doctor. These are interrelated means of control.

The point was to force this woman to behave in a certain manner, to cause her to conform to the demands and expectations of people who have power, to maintain her utility to others. All the rest is just justification and props. Race provides one handhold for control, madness for another, gender for a third. Together they provide the justification that people in power used to punish this woman for disobedience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Jenna, okay, not misleading. How about oversimplifying? </p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t think its an oversimplification. While there might have been other factors besides her refusal of the C-Section which lead to her child being taken away, we cannot know how many of these factors either run to the same source or are tainted. The mere suspicion of mental illness radically changes the way in which doctors interpret even normal behaviors. To borrow from Laing, once you&#8217;ve entered the asylum you will always be walking through it&#8217;s doors. Ultimately all of the write ups, all of the interpretations, all of the other factors which surround this case likely have a great deal to do with the interpretations staff made based upon the mother&#8217;s status as mentally ill and her decision the narcissistic injury they received as a result of this crazy woman refusing their good judgment.</p>
<blockquote><p> I think you raise a very interesting and relevant point: How frequently are the rights of people with documented history of treatment for mental illness violated re: bodily autonomy, particularly in childbirth? Probably a lot.</p></blockquote>
<p>Not probably a lot. The rights of the mad are universally and constantly violated. Right now I work at a county hospital in a major metropolitan area doing psych intakes and individual therapy. Abuse of patients is rampant and the ways in which the judgment and autonomy of patients is treated is frankly horrifying. The fact that the hospital called for a second consult, the fact that they couldn&#8217;t convince the first on-call doctor to play ball, is in itself strong evidence that the staff in question was out of control. Calling someone crazy is the first cudgel doctors reach for when someone gets uppity with them.</p>
<blockquote><p>How might racism have factored into this incident?</p></blockquote>
<p>Thats what I think you&#8217;re missing. The medicalization of childbirth for women who cannot afford higher levels of treatment, the high c-section rate that has a good deal to do with moving people out of valuable spaces quickly and generating more dollars for doctors and hospitals, the autonomy of bodies, the way the mad are abused, the racism that shades all of these interactions, you cannot separate these things. Its all part of the same game. These are different levels of power which are used to control bodies. Her anger was invalid because she was crazy or of color, her belief in discrimination was paranoia because staff didn&#8217;t see it (which provides more evidence for calling her crazy), her refusal of the c-section showed she wasn&#8217;t thinking properly because doctors thought it was the right idea and she isn&#8217;t a doctor. These are interrelated means of control.</p>
<p>The point was to force this woman to behave in a certain manner, to cause her to conform to the demands and expectations of people who have power, to maintain her utility to others. All the rest is just justification and props. Race provides one handhold for control, madness for another, gender for a third. Together they provide the justification that people in power used to punish this woman for disobedience.</p>
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		<title>By: uccellina</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/baby-taken-away-after-mom-refuses-c-section/#comment-259066</link>
		<dc:creator>uccellina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 18:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14916#comment-259066</guid>
		<description>Jenna, okay, not misleading.  How about oversimplifying? I think you raise a very interesting and relevant point: How frequently are the rights of people with documented history of treatment for mental illness violated re: bodily autonomy, particularly in childbirth?  Probably a lot.  The case under discussion is as much about that as it is about the medicalization of childbirth, the ungodly high c-section rate in this country, and the autonomy of women&#039;s bodies in the context of pregnancy and childbirth.  Obviously, since that&#039;s the way this commenting thread has gone. 

I guess the reason I&#039;m being so picky about this is that I think it is actually unfair to ignore that discussion and instead focus solely on the issue of women&#039;s bodily sovereignty.  Also at issue in this case: I think it&#039;s clear from the subtext of the legal decision that V.M. and her family are people of color (there is talk of her paranoia about &quot;societal discrimination,&quot; and she claimed that nurses or social workers talked about her baby&#039;s and her husband&#039;s skin color).  How might racism have factored into this incident?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jenna, okay, not misleading.  How about oversimplifying? I think you raise a very interesting and relevant point: How frequently are the rights of people with documented history of treatment for mental illness violated re: bodily autonomy, particularly in childbirth?  Probably a lot.  The case under discussion is as much about that as it is about the medicalization of childbirth, the ungodly high c-section rate in this country, and the autonomy of women&#8217;s bodies in the context of pregnancy and childbirth.  Obviously, since that&#8217;s the way this commenting thread has gone. </p>
<p>I guess the reason I&#8217;m being so picky about this is that I think it is actually unfair to ignore that discussion and instead focus solely on the issue of women&#8217;s bodily sovereignty.  Also at issue in this case: I think it&#8217;s clear from the subtext of the legal decision that V.M. and her family are people of color (there is talk of her paranoia about &#8220;societal discrimination,&#8221; and she claimed that nurses or social workers talked about her baby&#8217;s and her husband&#8217;s skin color).  How might racism have factored into this incident?</p>
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		<title>By: Jenna</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/baby-taken-away-after-mom-refuses-c-section/#comment-259005</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14916#comment-259005</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not totally misleading. I think there was also an assumption on the part of the doctors that she refused the c-section &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; she was mentally ill.  I have this suspicion on the basis of the fact that they ordered a second psych evaluation, after the first one declared her competent. 

When my mom was pregnant with my younger brother, she stopped taking anti-depressants. She gave birth via c-section. Reading this, I can&#039;t help but wonder, what if she had refused?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not totally misleading. I think there was also an assumption on the part of the doctors that she refused the c-section <i>because</i> she was mentally ill.  I have this suspicion on the basis of the fact that they ordered a second psych evaluation, after the first one declared her competent. </p>
<p>When my mom was pregnant with my younger brother, she stopped taking anti-depressants. She gave birth via c-section. Reading this, I can&#8217;t help but wonder, what if she had refused?</p>
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		<title>By: Rhiannon</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/baby-taken-away-after-mom-refuses-c-section/#comment-259001</link>
		<dc:creator>Rhiannon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14916#comment-259001</guid>
		<description>How can we be certain the parents were properly informed of the hearing?  Or that they had reliable transportation?  Surely the possibility that extenuating circumstances prevented them from appearing exists, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How can we be certain the parents were properly informed of the hearing?  Or that they had reliable transportation?  Surely the possibility that extenuating circumstances prevented them from appearing exists, right?</p>
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		<title>By: Humpday News Roundup &#171; The Feminist Texican</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/baby-taken-away-after-mom-refuses-c-section/#comment-258947</link>
		<dc:creator>Humpday News Roundup &#171; The Feminist Texican</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14916#comment-258947</guid>
		<description>[...] Baby taken away after mom refuses C-section [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Baby taken away after mom refuses C-section [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jackie</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/baby-taken-away-after-mom-refuses-c-section/#comment-258824</link>
		<dc:creator>Jackie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14916#comment-258824</guid>
		<description>No, not dispassionate and composed, but I would certainly show up at the custody hearings!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, not dispassionate and composed, but I would certainly show up at the custody hearings!</p>
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		<title>By: Uccellina</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/baby-taken-away-after-mom-refuses-c-section/#comment-258821</link>
		<dc:creator>Uccellina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14916#comment-258821</guid>
		<description>Hexy, no, I don&#039;t have schizophrenia, nor do I think that schizophrenia is a reason in and of itself to take a child out of the home, &lt;em&gt;nor am I defending the treatment of this woman in this case.&lt;/em&gt; I am saying that to cite this case as a clear cut example of Woman Refuses C-Section, Has Baby Taken As A Result, is misleading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hexy, no, I don&#8217;t have schizophrenia, nor do I think that schizophrenia is a reason in and of itself to take a child out of the home, <em>nor am I defending the treatment of this woman in this case.</em> I am saying that to cite this case as a clear cut example of Woman Refuses C-Section, Has Baby Taken As A Result, is misleading.</p>
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