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	<title>Comments on: Open Thread: When Art and Ideals Collide</title>
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	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/open-thread-when-art-and-ideals-collide/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
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		<title>By: Isabel</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/open-thread-when-art-and-ideals-collide/#comment-260915</link>
		<dc:creator>Isabel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 23:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14936#comment-260915</guid>
		<description>@Anon

WHOA, LOOK OUT JAY! ANON&#039;S GOT YOU THERE!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Anon</p>
<p>WHOA, LOOK OUT JAY! ANON&#8217;S GOT YOU THERE!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/open-thread-when-art-and-ideals-collide/#comment-260631</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14936#comment-260631</guid>
		<description>@Jay

So it is sexist to tell a story about a man?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jay</p>
<p>So it is sexist to tell a story about a man?</p>
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		<title>By: petitpoussin</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/open-thread-when-art-and-ideals-collide/#comment-259897</link>
		<dc:creator>petitpoussin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:19:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14936#comment-259897</guid>
		<description>for Natalie and others on this thread who think that True Blood&#039;s complicated sexuality constitutes homophobia, you might want to check out this article by Yasmin Nair on the de-sexing of gay culture in an effort to gain mainstream acceptance.  

http://www.bilerico.com/2009/02/how_gay_marriage_put_an_end_to_gay_sex.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>for Natalie and others on this thread who think that True Blood&#8217;s complicated sexuality constitutes homophobia, you might want to check out this article by Yasmin Nair on the de-sexing of gay culture in an effort to gain mainstream acceptance.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.bilerico.com/2009/02/how_gay_marriage_put_an_end_to_gay_sex.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.bilerico.com/2009/02/how_gay_marriage_put_an_end_to_gay_sex.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: petitpoussin</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/open-thread-when-art-and-ideals-collide/#comment-259896</link>
		<dc:creator>petitpoussin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 19:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14936#comment-259896</guid>
		<description>for Natalie and others on this thread who think that True Blood&#039;s complicated sexuality constitutes homophobia, you might want to check out this article by Yasmin Nair on the de-sexing of gay culture in an effort to gain mainstream acceptance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>for Natalie and others on this thread who think that True Blood&#8217;s complicated sexuality constitutes homophobia, you might want to check out this article by Yasmin Nair on the de-sexing of gay culture in an effort to gain mainstream acceptance.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/open-thread-when-art-and-ideals-collide/#comment-259881</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:56:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14936#comment-259881</guid>
		<description>Shah8, some works survive because they support the status quo and allow the powerful to believe their own PR - after all, Shakespeare said it. We can appreciate the art without validating the views of the artist, but we can also examine those views and the ways they influence art to see who&#039;s being left out, and what viewpoints have not been privileged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shah8, some works survive because they support the status quo and allow the powerful to believe their own PR &#8211; after all, Shakespeare said it. We can appreciate the art without validating the views of the artist, but we can also examine those views and the ways they influence art to see who&#8217;s being left out, and what viewpoints have not been privileged.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/open-thread-when-art-and-ideals-collide/#comment-259880</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:54:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14936#comment-259880</guid>
		<description>Anon at 10:11, I think &lt;i&gt; you&#039;ve&lt;/i&gt; misunderstood my objection. Ellie as a girl is a wonderful character, and their relationship is lovely - but her character and that whole story exist only as a prop. She exists in the movie only for what she means to her husband. AND her grand zest and drive for adventure is sublimated into marriage - she did desire to be an accessory to a man.  You said yourself that the story of the movie is how he copes without her. The story of the movie is HIM. It&#039;s a classic patriarchal narrative. It made me furious. I can&#039;t help but be hurt that the makers of Pixar don&#039;t want me in their movie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon at 10:11, I think <i> you&#8217;ve</i> misunderstood my objection. Ellie as a girl is a wonderful character, and their relationship is lovely &#8211; but her character and that whole story exist only as a prop. She exists in the movie only for what she means to her husband. AND her grand zest and drive for adventure is sublimated into marriage &#8211; she did desire to be an accessory to a man.  You said yourself that the story of the movie is how he copes without her. The story of the movie is HIM. It&#8217;s a classic patriarchal narrative. It made me furious. I can&#8217;t help but be hurt that the makers of Pixar don&#8217;t want me in their movie.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/open-thread-when-art-and-ideals-collide/#comment-259713</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14936#comment-259713</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;I&#039;m down for running up on them crackers in they city hall&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I absolutely love the song that the above lyrics are taken from (Dead Prez &quot;Hip Hop&quot;) but I can&#039;t help but feel hurt by the idea that the people who make the music I enjoy wouldn&#039;t want to be in the same room with me. However, I still listen to their music for the same reason filmophiles watch &quot;Birth of a Nation&quot;--because it has artistic merit.

Also, I think you have misinterpreted Pixar&#039;s UP. The female character in the movie is presented as a strong, adventurous leader. The square headed man spends the majority of his life transfixed by the woman&#039;s charisma and strength. Ultimately when she dies the story of the movie is how this man can learn to cope without the pillar that his late wife was. Yes it is true that females are absent for the majority of the film&#039;s action, but one of the central themes of the movie is how strong, courageous and beautiful women can be (even when they are not fertile and don&#039;t desire to be an accessory to their man&#039;s ambition).

Ultimately, I accept any art that I find has merit but I feel no reason to use the merit of art to excuse bigotry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;I&#8217;m down for running up on them crackers in they city hall&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I absolutely love the song that the above lyrics are taken from (Dead Prez &#8220;Hip Hop&#8221;) but I can&#8217;t help but feel hurt by the idea that the people who make the music I enjoy wouldn&#8217;t want to be in the same room with me. However, I still listen to their music for the same reason filmophiles watch &#8220;Birth of a Nation&#8221;&#8211;because it has artistic merit.</p>
<p>Also, I think you have misinterpreted Pixar&#8217;s UP. The female character in the movie is presented as a strong, adventurous leader. The square headed man spends the majority of his life transfixed by the woman&#8217;s charisma and strength. Ultimately when she dies the story of the movie is how this man can learn to cope without the pillar that his late wife was. Yes it is true that females are absent for the majority of the film&#8217;s action, but one of the central themes of the movie is how strong, courageous and beautiful women can be (even when they are not fertile and don&#8217;t desire to be an accessory to their man&#8217;s ambition).</p>
<p>Ultimately, I accept any art that I find has merit but I feel no reason to use the merit of art to excuse bigotry.</p>
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		<title>By: shah8</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/open-thread-when-art-and-ideals-collide/#comment-259486</link>
		<dc:creator>shah8</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 06:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14936#comment-259486</guid>
		<description>I think I&#039;d better make one thing clearer.  Virginia Woolf is very very good at writing.  The vast majority of people would have trouble at thinking up better ways to be Virginia Woolf.  We should not be concerned about whether the artist had these issues, because the best art will always be fairly fully invested in the artist&#039;s nature.  Even if it&#039;s the kind of slap-dash hurried writing of, say, Phillip K Dick.  

What&#039;s important is that having major biases tends to &lt;em&gt;blind&lt;/em&gt; people.  So, with a good writer like Virginia Woolf, she still writes great works, but they are &lt;em&gt;limited&lt;/em&gt;.  Many times, the works in question never really approaches her biases and retains a full palette of thought and emotion.  If jewish elements never comes up, or aren&#039;t conspiciously absent from the narrative, then there might not be a problem, and her anti-semitism largely affects what projects Woolf decides to take up rather than the quality of said projects.  No consumer, but a writer herself with great talent, can imagine or write a Woolf-like novel with an interesting element of jewishness. 

Everyone has these blindspots, but what makes a genius truly a genius is his or her ability to translate a vision in the mind to another mind--gears all atrembley, pistons pushing, platonic goo that pours in and crystalized soul comes out.  So when a piece of art lasts the years, decades, and centuries (a few, millenia), it is because the artist &lt;strong&gt;saw&lt;/strong&gt;.  The artist had more vision and less hinderances than the people around him/her.  The greatest will have had more vision and less hinderances in their moments of realization than even people living among artists &lt;em&gt;standing&lt;/em&gt; on these giants.  

We can forgive much of the worst elements of Shakespeare, because we see and feel more as a result of reading him.  The Matrix, on the other hand...well Shylock could never be the hero of the tale.  Mr. Smith, by a reasonably objective analysis, is the *hero* of the first movie, even though that&#039;s not really supposed to be the case.  It works out like that because the creaters cannot see through and translate their creation well in large part due to glibertarianism.  The Matrix will not last nearly as well as the original Twilight Zone episodes.

If the art is great, it will forgive the crudeness of the maker, and there is no fucking need to forgive the maker.  That is arrogance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;d better make one thing clearer.  Virginia Woolf is very very good at writing.  The vast majority of people would have trouble at thinking up better ways to be Virginia Woolf.  We should not be concerned about whether the artist had these issues, because the best art will always be fairly fully invested in the artist&#8217;s nature.  Even if it&#8217;s the kind of slap-dash hurried writing of, say, Phillip K Dick.  </p>
<p>What&#8217;s important is that having major biases tends to <em>blind</em> people.  So, with a good writer like Virginia Woolf, she still writes great works, but they are <em>limited</em>.  Many times, the works in question never really approaches her biases and retains a full palette of thought and emotion.  If jewish elements never comes up, or aren&#8217;t conspiciously absent from the narrative, then there might not be a problem, and her anti-semitism largely affects what projects Woolf decides to take up rather than the quality of said projects.  No consumer, but a writer herself with great talent, can imagine or write a Woolf-like novel with an interesting element of jewishness. </p>
<p>Everyone has these blindspots, but what makes a genius truly a genius is his or her ability to translate a vision in the mind to another mind&#8211;gears all atrembley, pistons pushing, platonic goo that pours in and crystalized soul comes out.  So when a piece of art lasts the years, decades, and centuries (a few, millenia), it is because the artist <strong>saw</strong>.  The artist had more vision and less hinderances than the people around him/her.  The greatest will have had more vision and less hinderances in their moments of realization than even people living among artists <em>standing</em> on these giants.  </p>
<p>We can forgive much of the worst elements of Shakespeare, because we see and feel more as a result of reading him.  The Matrix, on the other hand&#8230;well Shylock could never be the hero of the tale.  Mr. Smith, by a reasonably objective analysis, is the *hero* of the first movie, even though that&#8217;s not really supposed to be the case.  It works out like that because the creaters cannot see through and translate their creation well in large part due to glibertarianism.  The Matrix will not last nearly as well as the original Twilight Zone episodes.</p>
<p>If the art is great, it will forgive the crudeness of the maker, and there is no fucking need to forgive the maker.  That is arrogance.</p>
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		<title>By: chava</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/open-thread-when-art-and-ideals-collide/#comment-259436</link>
		<dc:creator>chava</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 04:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14936#comment-259436</guid>
		<description>Well, it&#039;s complicated, and I try to remember that the work is not the author, and the author&#039;s character doesn&#039;t take away from the greatness or lack therof of the work.  There is. no. moral. connection.  Good people don&#039;t necessarily make good artists or writers, or vice versa.  A book can have severely racist or sexist elements to it and still be valuable and worthy of study.   I admit, I&#039;m pretty influenced by a certain kind of lit crit, and that helps me to draw a bright line. 

Still, I have been oddly personally disappointed when finding out certain things about my favorite authors--that Nabokov cheated on his wife, that Woolf was an anti-Semite, etc.  I think when you invest a lot of time not only in a work, but in the works of a particular author, it can become more problematic as we move farther away from pure criticism of the text itself and closer to biography, frankly.   

Just to note, though--if I am reading something for pleasure rather than work, I&#039;m much more likely to put it down if I encounter enough unpleasantness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it&#8217;s complicated, and I try to remember that the work is not the author, and the author&#8217;s character doesn&#8217;t take away from the greatness or lack therof of the work.  There is. no. moral. connection.  Good people don&#8217;t necessarily make good artists or writers, or vice versa.  A book can have severely racist or sexist elements to it and still be valuable and worthy of study.   I admit, I&#8217;m pretty influenced by a certain kind of lit crit, and that helps me to draw a bright line. </p>
<p>Still, I have been oddly personally disappointed when finding out certain things about my favorite authors&#8211;that Nabokov cheated on his wife, that Woolf was an anti-Semite, etc.  I think when you invest a lot of time not only in a work, but in the works of a particular author, it can become more problematic as we move farther away from pure criticism of the text itself and closer to biography, frankly.   </p>
<p>Just to note, though&#8211;if I am reading something for pleasure rather than work, I&#8217;m much more likely to put it down if I encounter enough unpleasantness.</p>
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		<title>By: Pega</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/07/28/open-thread-when-art-and-ideals-collide/#comment-259432</link>
		<dc:creator>Pega</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 04:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=14936#comment-259432</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been thinking about this post more and more as the days roll by, and after reading shah8 @50 something popped into my head that I can&#039;t wrap my mind around just yet.

&lt;em&gt;Song of the South&lt;/em&gt; ... Now, I saw this movie in theatres when I was, well I can&#039;t even remember how old I was. Younger than Middle School definitely, and probably closer to grade 2 or 3 but I might be wrong. As an adult, I couldn&#039;t really remember the movie except that it was about Brer Rabbit and had a bunch of songs that I loved (I still hum Zippity-Do-Dah when I&#039;m in a good mood), and while I knew there were &#039;racist overtones&#039; intellectually, I honestly couldn&#039;t remember the film, all I remember was loving it as a small child.

I recently found a copy of the film and ordered it on DVD for my granddaughter (age 14 mos). I watched it all the way through, and cried through most of it. It was HORRIBLE. And as much as I remember loving it then, now I can&#039;t even love it for the nostalgia. It will be relegated to a bottom drawer somewhere and never again see the light of day if I have any say in the matter. And it especially won&#039;t ever be shown to my granddaughter except as an example of what not to do.

So while I do still indulge in my guilty pleasures from above, I can say that there are some things that are even too horrible for me to gloss over and love just for the sake of nostalgia, in spite of their inherent problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking about this post more and more as the days roll by, and after reading shah8 @50 something popped into my head that I can&#8217;t wrap my mind around just yet.</p>
<p><em>Song of the South</em> &#8230; Now, I saw this movie in theatres when I was, well I can&#8217;t even remember how old I was. Younger than Middle School definitely, and probably closer to grade 2 or 3 but I might be wrong. As an adult, I couldn&#8217;t really remember the movie except that it was about Brer Rabbit and had a bunch of songs that I loved (I still hum Zippity-Do-Dah when I&#8217;m in a good mood), and while I knew there were &#8216;racist overtones&#8217; intellectually, I honestly couldn&#8217;t remember the film, all I remember was loving it as a small child.</p>
<p>I recently found a copy of the film and ordered it on DVD for my granddaughter (age 14 mos). I watched it all the way through, and cried through most of it. It was HORRIBLE. And as much as I remember loving it then, now I can&#8217;t even love it for the nostalgia. It will be relegated to a bottom drawer somewhere and never again see the light of day if I have any say in the matter. And it especially won&#8217;t ever be shown to my granddaughter except as an example of what not to do.</p>
<p>So while I do still indulge in my guilty pleasures from above, I can say that there are some things that are even too horrible for me to gloss over and love just for the sake of nostalgia, in spite of their inherent problems.</p>
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