My apologies for the lack of Guest Blogger posts from me this week. I contracted some sort of coldy-flu thing, and since I’m me that inevitably led to a chest infection and a week of struggling to breathe through hot goo and think through a head full of cotton wool. I tried to blog on “The Kyle and Jackie O” thing earlier in the week and just couldn’t get through a whole entry.
I’m still feeling pretty awful, but I think I might be able to manage a short entry or two before my stint is officially up in, oh, fifteen minutes or so.
So. The Kyle and Jackie O thing. It’s been buzzing around the Australian media and blogosphere all week, and I’ve seen it mentioned on a few international blogs, so forgive me if this is all old. It’s something I’ve been wanting to rant about all week, when all I could do was cough feverishly and wave my fist in the general direction of the internet.
For those blissfully unaware, “The Kyle and Jackie O Show” is a particularly hideous part of the Australian radio landscape. Kyle Sandilands, who also features on Australian Idol and Australian Big Brother, is the “shock jock” type, with the startlingly bland Jackie O playing the blonde Nice Lady to sweeten the show. Last week, a segment of their show that has been running for six years “went horribly wrong”. The scare quotes are there because I firmly believe the segment was always dangerous and obnoxious rubbish, but I digress.
The (inaccurately named, poorly advised) segment in question is called “Lie Detector”. A guest is strapped to a polygraph and asked questions. In this instance, the “guest” was a fourteen year old girl who was very clearly not consenting to participate, and the person steering the interrogation was her mother. The mother was clear from the very beginning that her questions would focus on the fourteen year old’s experiences with drugs and sex.
The girl then revealed that she’d been raped when she was twelve… and noted that the mother knew this.
The segment was abruptly cut, although not before Kyle came out with the ever-so-sensitive and now infamous comment “Right… and is that the only experience you’ve had?”
Lauredhel has the audio clip and a transcript here.
Most of the argument going on last week seemed to be centred around who to blame, and who not to blame. Don’t black Kyle, it’s the mum’s fault. Don’t blame the mum, it’s the fault of the producers. Back and forth and back and forth. The only positive note was that, for once, no-one was blaming the teenage rape victim. Refreshing, that. I still can’t help but wince slightly at the news that DOCS and the police are now involved. I wish I could be optimistic that that would end positively, but the investigation of a two year old rape is unlikely to do so… and the Australian public can be mighty ugly when handed a rape case that can’t be proven guilty.
Personally? I think almost everyone involved in this debacle holds some blame. The producers who thought it was great radio to get an underage child on the air for the sole purpose of grilling her about her sexual history (consensual or otherwise… statutory rape is still against the law) and history of drug use fucked up majorly, and should see some consequences of that. The show and its presenters have been suspended indefinitely, and Kyle Sandilands has been dumped from Australian Idol. Of course, Sandilands also penned an extremely whiny apology/justification, which seemed to boil down to “Why won’t anyone put themselves in MY shoes? Think about Kyle! Stop using the rape victim’s misery to hurt Kyle! Wahhhh!”
I do think the mother holds some fault… to first know that your daughter was raped and not seek any professional support for her, and then to coerce her into reliving that live on radio points to some serious lacking in the “Not being a shitty mum” department. The terrible relationship she’s bound to have with her daughter from here on in is at least partially her own doing, and it’s an awful shame that that cuts two ways and leaves a vulnerable and traumatised child without a decent mum to support her through this. That said, those people who are making the claim that the mother holds more blame than anyone else? They’re anti-woman dipshits. It’s a lot easier to label a woman a bad mother holding all the blame than it is to question our culture, in which a sarcastic and obnoxious man questioning an underage child on her sexual history while an audience listens is seen as titillating entertainment rather than an act of abuse. It’s certainly easier to blame the woman than it is to blame the faceless executives and producers wielding the power of spin.
And that last paragraph gets me to my main point about this whole incident. Yes, the presenters should be blamed, and should face sanctions. Yes, the mother fucked up pretty seriously, and I hope she and her daughter get the help they need to establish healthy communication and trust, and for the mother to provide a safe and supportive environment for her daughter. I don’t say that lightly: I was a teenage rape victim, and I know all too well that there is a wealth of reasons young girls who are raped do not confide in their mothers. If anything, I’m angry that this incident has added more weight to the fears that force teen rape victims to keep such a horrible secret.
The producers and behind-the-scenes team working on this show also fucked up. Kyle and Jackie O might be the headliners people associate the show (and the fuck up) with, but they are certainly not solely responsible for what goes to air. I want to see those producers experiencing ramifications just as much as the presenters.
But there’s one little slice of responsibility that keeps being ignored, some condemnation I want to see but no not: the listeners. Ideally, I’d like to see an apology from person who ever tuned into this show and particularly this segment, who added themselves to the ratings that suggested this was radio gold and should be continued. Everyone who sat there and laughed at such a misguided radio stunt should take a moment to look at the ground and feel a little bit ashamed of themselves.
For the girl, of course, I wish nothing but the best. It’s a shitty thing to deal with, and it will be with her forever. I hope she stays strong.
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I guess I can feel good about myself because I listen to JJJ then? I stopped listening to ALL commercial radio in the 1990’s when the Austereo network did their “Two Strangers and a Wedding” fiasco.
But I do think the mother has a significantly larger portion of the blame here than anyone else. After all, the poor girl wouldn’t have been strapped into the polygraph and given the third degree about her trauma (which her mother knew about) if her mother (who should have been looking out for her rights and personal autonomy) hadn’t made her.
As for reality TV, shock jock radio, and people who are famous for being famous, well, this is just one more tasteless and shameful thing done for money/ratings in a long list of abhorrent behaviours.
Just a note that DOCS, for non-Australian readers, is the Department of Community Services.
This is a great post, and I definitely don’t think this topic has been covered to death. I am so pleased to hear about the aftermath of the incident, and how things have actually been done about it. I can’t imagine in the United States that this would even be seen as a big deal, and the show would certainly still be on the air.
As far as not confiding in mothers- I just don’t think they can handle something like this happening to their kids. I was assaulted as a 14 year old by a stranger on the street (flashed me, chased me, grabbed me), police were involved, etc., and my mother simply laughed and said I wasn’t really hurt. Many of our mothers are from the generation of TCM movies- where it’s apparently routine to try to physically pry as much sex as you can from a woman until she succeeds in fighting you off.
we have had big brother, the biggest loser, oprah, Dr phil, judge judy, brat camp, supernanny,sally jessy raphael – it goes on. Hours and hours of relentless probing into people’s lives, offering solutions, showing the performance of trauma to be not just ‘normal’ but therapeutic. even on ‘idol’ and so you think you can dance, weeping and confession are a big part of the genre.
maybe mum reads ‘that’s life’ magazine rather than the latest feminist text on parenting. maybe she never finished high school. So why would she question this norm?
maybe mum was struggling to set boundaries for her teen, and was looking for help and support. Maybe the format offered by kyle and jackie o seemed more accessable than counselling – in fact if she had appealed to the school counsellor and been given a lecture on respecting her child’s privacy, rather than any suggestions on how to deal with her 14 year old who she suspected/knew was putting herself in dangerous situations – a radio show might look like just right solution. Because it comes out right on those shows. Dr Phil will see right into your heart.
I don’t know the facts, but seems to me there are precious few facts needed to start pointing the finger and passing judgement on this woman.
not everyone has the privilege of looking down at the rest of the world from the educated high ground. why didnt the radio station explain kyle sandilands is not dr phil, and arrange some help for them?
I have no problem saying that the mother in this case was a lousy, horrible, terrible mother. But you know what kills me? If it had been the girl’s father who took her on the show, I can 100% guarantee you that there would be a non-trivial number of cries of, “How could her mother let this happen?” I have SEEN THIS HAPPEN. Father behaves badly, people blame the mother. Mother behaves badly and, well, clearly she had her child through parthenogenesis.
Not that I’m bitter. At ALL.
“That said, those people who are making the claim that the mother holds more blame than anyone else? They’re anti-woman dipshits. It’s a lot easier to label a woman a bad mother holding all the blame than it is to question our culture, in which a sarcastic and obnoxious man questioning an underage child on her sexual history while an audience listens is seen as titillating entertainment rather than an act of abuse. It’s certainly easier to blame the woman than it is to blame the faceless executives and producers wielding the power of spin.”
No. This has nothing to do with the fact that the mother is a woman and everything to do with the fact that, at least with the evidence that the public has thus far been presented, she has acted monstrously. Whether or not public outcry would have been different had her father been the one on the show, or even if there is something wrong with our culture is frankly irrelevant. In or out of any context, this woman has no fucking excuse for having acted the way she did to her daughter. Yes, our culture is messed up. The mother’s horridness does not take away from the fact that the segment itself is disgusting and there was never any call to question an underage girl – or, really, anyone, for that matter – on her sexual history to boost ratings or whatever. But at the same time, that this segment is stupid and the hosts ridiculous does not diminish the mother’s responsibility to act like a human being. I don’t care if things are difficult to handle or these issues are uncomfortable, you figure it out for the sake of your child, if nothing else.
All that said, what that woman really needs is serious counseling rather than my vitriol. This just makes me so sad and angry.
No, I don’t think this post is at all redundant, Hexy. I’m glad for your two cents on it.
This girl’s story has gotten a lot of attention because she was forced to disclose her history of rape. But I don’t think the basic premise of the show would be a whole lot better if she’d only had a history of consensual sex – or if she were a virgin! The very idea of forcing a child to divulge personal information in the media is so fucked up, it really ought to be illegal. It ought to be considered a form of child abuse. And not only the mother but the radio presenters and producers ought to be taken for task for this. Ditto for the girl’s father, assuming he’s part of her life, or any other adults with custodial power over her.
As a former teenage girl, I would loathe my parents if they’d done this to me. As a parent, I cannot imagine doing anything of the sort to my child.
Oh, and Hexy – I hope you’re feeling much better very soon!
That little twist, in itself, is “looking down at the rest of the world from the educated high ground.” A lack of formal education does not equal a lack of critical thinking skills or a lack of intelligence. Depending on the situation it might tell you something about someone’s financial means, disability, or tolerance for inculcation and bullshit, but the number of years of formal schooling someone has completed doesn’t tell you much about that person’s ability to think or understand.
You’re being incredibly patronizing.
From a shock jock? Really? I’ve met some painfully ignorant people in my day, and even with that frame of reference I have trouble believing someone would look at this stunt as “help and support.” Punishment? Sure. A quick way to make a buck off an underage rape victim? Yeah, I could buy that. Therapy? Sorry, no dice.
Yeah, that whole pesky issue of autonomy and confidentiality. THOSE MONSTERS! Public humiliation and re-victimization sounds like a great next step.
Aside from the question of what the counselor was supposed to say about a mother asking how to stop a teenager from being a teenager, do you see what you did there? Here we have a girl the mother knew was raped, and we’re talking about the kid “putting herself in dangerous situations?” Do you see the contour of that statement? Does it sound like a bit of victim blaming to you? Because I have to say, in the context of the rest of your post (lets not pass judgment on the mother, the girl is out of control, poor mum might have been too stupid to see that an adult man grilling a rape victim about her sexual history in public might not be a good plan) it smells that way to me.
In the same way that shaking a baby to shut it up might look like just the right solution.
Even if he doesn’t have a license and right after he’s done having sex with a patient.
Also, and I’m saying this as a therapist, it’s incredibly easy when you have the power that comes with a therapeutic situation to pressure someone until they break down and stop resisting. They’ll start to agree with what you’re saying and tell you all sorts of things they would never tell someone else. They might even change their behavior and begin acting in the way you would like them to act. This is not a sign of them “getting better.” This is what happens when you abuse someone, when you victimize them, when you enforce your will upon them. People like Dr. Phil don’t “see into” anyone’s heart, they force their way in.
Might that be because her behavior is so far over the line of decency or basic emotional intelligence that it borders on criminal abuse? “The facts” in this case are pretty much irrelevant when you consider what the fundamental action is. There is a 14 year old girl who was raped at 12. Her mother was having some trouble dealing with her, so she put the child in a situation where an adult man would grill her about her sexual history on the radio so people could laugh at/fantasize about/feel superior to her. Outside of some kind of severe developmental disability on the part of the mother, I can’t imagine a data set that would excuse, or even mitigate, that kind of colossal parenting fuck up.
I agree with Eunice wholeheartedly and as an Aussie Feminist I do not consider myself an ‘anti-woman dipshit’.
It is pretty clear cut for me, the mother had prior knowledge of the rape and forced that situation upon her daughter instead of actually getting some help or justice for her. In fact, I find the whole pointing the finger at everyone else infuriating. The radio segment is entirely gross, don’t get me wrong and I wouldn’t listen to that station. However one cannot expect a third party to have more responsibility than the parent who forced her child into such an ugly situation. It’s a cop out and I think others who are not involved take part in the finger pointing so that they can also put their heads in the sand and not take a good hard look at themselves and how they deal with their responsibilities in life.
So pleased to see that racist sexist jerk go.
Staff at 2Day broke several ethical codes, in addition to local, national and international laws (child protection, treatment of young people on air, media laws, defamation, to name a few). They broke protocol with UN treaties ratified by Australia including the Convention on Child Rights and optional protocols on children in the media, esp Article 13 and Article 17.
It’s always amusing to see people response to something I’ve specifically stated I wasn’t attempting to convey. I’m not absolving the mother of responsibility, and I’m not saying other people hold more blame than her. I’m saying that handing her a sizably larger portion of blame than anyone else is simplistic and, in many of the comments I’ve seen, seemingly rooted in misogyny.
Eunice:
I imagine we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I’m startled that you think something like this can be divorced from cultural context, but it’s such a core point that I can’t imagine discussion going anywhere.
I think we all agree that ideally this would be the case, but I’m not personally in the habit of holding women to a higher standard when it comes to rape culture and internalised victim blaming than anyone else just because they’ve given birth.
I refuse to listen to commercial radio for just this reason. And the fact that most of the music these days sucks anyway.
I think the fact that so much attention has been put on this can only be a good thing. It’s strangely encouraging to see so many people angry about this. As a survivor, I feel like, I don’t know, people actually give a shit about those of us that have been wronged in this way. For so long, I’ve felt like nobody cared at all.
The transcript for the Media Watch episode on Kyle and Jackie O can be found here: http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s2644599.htm
Thank ungod for Media Watch.
This whole thing was just so grossly criminal. What the living hell were the girl’s parents and everyone involved in this show thinking, strapping a non-consenting 14 year old to a lie detector and having an adult man question her on her sexual history on national (I think?) radio? How on earth could anyone not see how grossly abusive this was? Or ignore the fact that it was abusive because it was more important to generate ratings? There is something really wrong with our society.
Interesting point, Penny, on this being a violation on the Convention of the Rights of the Child…
I’m glad William shredded Cass’s comment, because…wtf?
“I’m not personally in the habit of holding women to a higher standard when it comes to rape culture and internalised victim blaming than anyone else just because they’ve given birth.”
I’m not holding her to a higher standard, I’m holding her responsible for not acting in the best interest of her daughter. Everyone played their part in this terrible debacle; I’m only saying that just because the station was horrid and the hosts insensitive, to say the least, that doesn’t at all lessen the mother’s irresponsibility and I don’t believe that makes me an ‘anti-woman dipshit’, either.
“I’m startled that you think something like this can be divorced from cultural context, but it’s such a core point that I can’t imagine discussion going anywhere.”
I suppose irrelevant was too strong a word. You’re right, I don’t think this can be divorced from cultural context, but at the same time I don’t think “culture sucks” is an acceptable excuse for the mother’s conduct. Yes, our culture sucks. Yes, there are many external factors etc etc that led to this. This doesn’t excuse the mother.
Hope you feel better soon, Hexy.
Perhaps I’m alone on this, but for me the fact that she was the child’s mother is more or less irrelevant when it comes to the blame she must carry for what happened. What is important for me is the fact that she was (presumably) this child’s legal guardian. That status makes it her responsibility to, well, guard the child from harm. In this case, she didn’t just fail to protect her ward, she actively put the child in harm’s way in order to make a point and establish her dominance. She was, in effect, using the authority she had as a parent to punish her daughter by making her rape history into a joke. For me, the ire is coming from the fact that she willfully abused someone who was dependent upon her for no reason other than to maintain control over that person. I have trouble imagining any context that wouldn’t make her behavior utterly inhuman.
Thats not to say that she holds a greater portion of the blame then the asshole who was conducting the abuse or the producers who thought that re-victimizing a 14 year old girl was a good way to bring in ad revenue. Honestly, I think trying to parcel out shares of blame is a pointless act of objectification. Everyone involved who had the power to stop this is not equally responsible, but wholly responsible. I think the mother deserves particular focus because her part of this grotesque play is the one most likely to be repeated again and again in less public venues. Its easy to boycott a company for advertising on an offensive show, and its easy to call out public figures when they do something disgusting, but the kind of emotional abuse in the service of parental dominance involved here is both common and often invisible.
And yet, I again point out, no one seems to be asking where her dad is. And hey, possibly he’s dead, possibly he doesn’t even know he has a child, but the fact that no one’s asking, when you can be very sure that people would be asking where mom was if it had been dad who took the girl on the show, is very very telling.
Note: I am not remotely excusing the mother, here. What she did was horrific. But let’s not pretend that the reactions aren’t gendered.
They are all to blame. They are all scum.
The Mother: Child abusing bitch who torments and humiliates her own daughter in the national (now international) media.
Jackie O: Child abusing bitch who cackles like a witch at the prospect of strapping down a young girl and interrogating her about her sexual activity on national radio, as the girl begs for mercy.
Kyle: Child abusing asshole. Hardly a surprise.
The Producers: Child abusing assholes, laughing all the way to the bank.
The reaction is neither gendered or misogynistic. It is based objectively upon the evidence. We do not (presumably) know the father’s role. Did he have prior knowledge of his daughter’s going on to radio? What we do know is the mother’s role.
Had the father been responsible I have little doubt he would be severely criticised and probably have a court injunction against him as his daughter was granted sole custody to the mother, or possibly put into care.
What is open to debate is the mother’s motives. Does the mother believe her daughter is a liar and made up stories of rape etc. Did she want the truth over drug-taking. And why use radio as the means?
Yes, the radio station and the broadcasters exercised poor judgement too. However, so does our shock and gossip culture. If women (and it is mostlywomen) stopped buying gossip culture media then this may change.
Lucy @29
You have a point. I can say, from my POV as a single parent, that I don’t ask where the Dad was because in my experience there is no second parent in the picture. A wrong assumption on my part. But probably a common one.
Eunice:
I don’t believe that makes you an anti-woman dipshit, either, because you’re not actually disagreeing with me, or agreeing with the point of view that I labelled “Anti-woman dipshits”. If you’re holding her responsible for not acting in the best interests of her daughter and for playing a significant but not sole role in the hideous events, then we’re in agreement.
Who do you think is saying this?
William:
Well said. I concur.
Ben: More agreement!
Vitihiti: I think you’ll find that this particular radio show does not have a listening audience skewed towards women. I don’t see the connection to “women buying gossip media”.
And thank you to everyone who has left well wishes about my health on this thread and others. You’re all lovely.
RAGE.
I fucking knew this would happen. The girl at the centre of the Kyle/Jackie O debacle has requested that police not continue their investigation of her rape, and comment threads are already filling up with people suggesting she’s lying.
There is no evidence of that. The odds of any rape case ending in a conviction are minimal, and a two year old rape case? Pretty much nil.
I’m so angry my hands are shaking. That poor girl.
We are only hearing what the media are wanting us to hear… right, wrong or otherwise, there is no proof of rape or no rape.
I have seen it suggested elsewhere that perhaps the mother and daughter cooked up this scheme to get a couple of mil in compensation from a radio show that just doesn’t know where to draw the line and saw them as an easy target? Stranger things have happened..
Maybe the daughter was raped, or maybe she realised that school friends etc would be listening to the show and didn’t want to label herself for some acts she had participated in once the lie decector picked up truth in sexual activity?
Or didn’t want her mother to know that she had been doing things of a sexual nature or had been questioned about it and simpled labelled it herself to her mother as rape to take the heat off of her own actions?
Maybe the case was dropped because this was the case, (whether legally allowed to or not) once the official investigations started she panicked, buckled and admitted to police that there was never any rape?
WE DON’T KNOW SO WHY SPECULATE ON IT!
My point being – there is SO many variations and intentions that we don’t know about and will never find out about through the media, hence the matter is in the hands of the police and DOCS – they are the people to find the truth!
On that note, why don’t we all stop speculating and let the proper authorities handle the matter?
Please don’t think that I am playing down the accusation or seriousness of rape, but FFS this has gone beyond the joke either way.
We don’t know so why… presume that a 14 year old girl is lying about being raped and publish that speculation on the internet?
You’ve leapt to exactly one unacceptable conclusion, which is that a woman is probably lying about saying she was raped.
As for me, I’m not speculating on anything. I’m flatly stating that it is NOT AND NEVER OK to declare on exactly zero proof that a 14 year old girl (or, indeed, any woman) is lying when she says she was sexually assaulted.
I’d suggest you have a look at the stats on how many sexual assaults in this country actually result in a prosecution before suggesting that the “proper authorities” are any use for “finding out the truth”.
Hexy..
Firstly, I was not suggesting in any way, shape or form this has happened in this case, just pointing out that things are not always as they seem, and to take someones word for something is extremely narrow minded and could put someone in jail falsely, especially when its the media’s word that you are taking of all sources!
If this young girl was indeed raped (I don’t know if she was or if she wasn’t, that is my point about openmindedness) I am in agreeance with you that it would be hard for the authorities to do anything about it after such a vast time has elapsed. I too am a rape survivor and after coming forwards after many years, I was offered no help whatsoever from the proper authorities, like many others, however they seem to be keen enough in wanting to help her, so one would think that she has their attention and unlike most rapes, there is alot of publicity and media attention around this one, which would help her cause a little as well as the public are clearly not letting this drop.
I would also look at the stats about how many women falsly claim to have been raped and it IS a common problem which DOES make it harder for the proper authorities to work out who is telling the truth and who isn’t..
It may also be worthwhile to look at the stats on how many men actually get accused of rape when it hasn’t actually happened, if you want to go down that path of the “stats game”.
I mean no disrespect to this young lady, or other rape victims, just things need to be investigated completely and innocent until proven guilty SHOULD be the way. It is a terrible thing that has happened, but you can’t just solely trust what the media has to say in relation to these types of things.
I sincerely hope that you can see my point now, in regards to saying that “oh she made it up” was not what I meant at all, just simply putting forward a varitey of different scenarions that had not been suggested before, this most certainly DOES NOT equal me thinking that she made the whole thing up!
As for everyone else on this forum, some may have already passed judgement one way or the other.
I am curious in regards to your stats, can you please elaborate a little on where they were obtained from, the country that you have used for research purposes, what span of time that they were conducted over, what the criteras were for the selection of canditates, what professional bodies conducted the surveys etc – this would be much appreciated as I am not able to form a clear opinion for myself without such knowledge.
This is again proving that many variables come into any situation, it may seem clear cut to some, but things can be manipulated to give a certain impression.
In being a rape survivor myself, my trust of other peoples intergrity has lead me to research as much as I can completely without taking someones word on the subject at hand.
Oh, sure, not a problem. If you just read the damn post I linked you to, you’ll see the source clearly cited.
No, it’s not and no, it doesn’t. All the actual data I’ve seen (and although I acknowledge I have no Australian sources on this, I seriously doubt there’s an Aussie epidemic of false accusations that isn’t reflected in the US and UK stats) reflects the idea that false allegations of rape are made at roughly the same rate as false allegations of any other crime. That myth about women totally throwing rape allegations around at the drop of a hat? It’s bullshit.
No. Me taking a woman’s word that she’s been raped, especially in a situation like this, is going to have absolutely no effect on anyone, and particularly not on the status of any police investigation or prosecution. My opinion, much as it sometimes pains me to recognise this, affects absolutely bloody nothing, on the large scale.
You don’t pay much attention to the media surrounding high profile rape cases, do you? That media attention rarely helps the victim.
And I’ve gone into moderation on my own post. I hope those who claim their own moderation is always a deliberate act by those with mod powers are paying attention!
Clearly Hexy you are only hearing what you want to hear with what I am saying… And yes I have read your stats page and it is a little all over the place to say the least, and along with the running commentary that is added in it as well, however that is your views in that commentary and I respect that, I don’t necessarily agree, but I respect it, thats the whole idea of debating, blogging etc and then opening it to reponses right?
I was really hoping that you would be able to see where I was coming from with this, but it has become painfully clear in my opinion that your attitide of looking at the majority of cases exemplifies the same attitude that the authorities have on these matters and this view makes life very difficult for rape cases that fall outside of the norm.
In saying so, I myself, and my rape case fell outside of the norm and people with your opinions and closemindedness is what made help for me unattainable due to their preconceived ideas on what, why, and when these acts occur.
I am a female that was raped by another female, try getting people to understand that in your statistical world.
Good luck in your “standing up for the statistically obvious” I’m sure you will find this rewarding. Perhaps you should be paying a little more attention to the people that statistics are not given for?
No, I’m reading what you’re saying. I just disagree with you.
It’s a blog entry. They do that. The link to each source is right at the beginning of each section, if you’re looking for the statistical data without the commentary.
My view on rape is really, really not reflected in the attitude of the authorities. I can assure you of that. But this is the first you’ve mentioned of “rape cases that fall outside the norm”… until now, you’ve been talking about false rape allegations and how they totally happen all the time. Don’t try and switch topics without anyone noticing.
In my world as a queer woman who has been exposed to domestic violence and sexual assault within the queer community and who has seen friends suffer through same sex domestic and sexual assault, I understand as much as anyone who hasn’t experienced it can. You’re really not going to get anywhere by trying to cast me as someone unsympathetic to those issues.
I’m a minority within a minority within a minority. It’s shit. You’re preaching to the choir.
And I don’t stand up for the “statistically obvious”. I stand up, in this instance, for the rights of women to not be disbelieved and accused of lying when they talk about being sexually assaulted. From your story, I’d expect you to be on side with that one.
Hexy, I never said that it didn’t happen, I was simply saying that you have to look at all the scenarios, unfortunately in this world not everyone tells the truth, so evidentally it does have to be looked at. Every scenatio, no matter how statistically insignificant, has its credibility.
Being a minority, in a minority, in a minority of ALL people you should understand this! This is not an anti feminist argument, it is the way all laws should look at any accusations or injustices, regardless of sex. Unfortunately people seem to cast too much preference towards one sex or the other.
When there is an accusation of rape, the person who makes the claim has to prove it as much as the accused has to defend it. Legals systems are structured this way for a reason, even though this system can have its inherint faults.
As for switching topics, thats certainly not what happened, allow me to assure you of that one, nor am I backpeddling on my statement of some women making false rape allegations. This does certainly happen, dispite your clear opinion that it does not. Infact, it was readily suggested and a well known scenario within people of my age group within Australia – I can assure you I have known people in my old social circles (yes more than just the one person!) who would brag about concentually losing their virginity one day and how wonderful the experience was, then the next day when mum finds out, be crying rape with a full blown investigation happening around it – go figure
I also know for a fact that I am not the only one who has heard of these kind of circumstances – as having grown up and speaking to other females, had it assured to me that this was happening in several schools, social groups etc so this validates to myself that this is not just a once off or somethng that just doesn’t happen.
I can appreciate that you have seen these things first hand in your life, and with friends and company around you – whether or not it be in a gay community the issue is this – domestic violence (which I have also encountered) and rape are alarming issues to ALL people from ALL walks of life and ALL sexes.
In my circumstance, this was not in a gay relationship, it was actually while I was a pre teen and the perpetrator was a teenage girl.
At the time this was reported, I can tell you first hand that NOBODY had any idea how to even approach such an accusation and had never even heard of it happening before or they just were not willing to research the matter. However I do realise that this is more recognised now, but at the time, no one seemed to even know how to file the report, and statically it just didn’t happen.
To this day, I still resent the fact that because people didn’t look at all possible scenarios or some things were merely passed off as “That just doesn’t happen” is the EXACT reason as to why I received not only no justice, but no help in my particular case, and the saddest part, that this person is more than likely out there somewhere still abusing.
From investiating world wide for statistics on false rape allegations, the stats seem to range from 2% at the lowest to 40% at the highest. Obviously extremist groups are at either end of the scales – finding true data is a very hard and complex proceedure.
Taking this into mind, even if we look at the two percent claimed from rape support groups, this shows that even these groups agree the scenario does happen.
There are many possible motives for false rape claims. Revenge, financial gain, delusional, publicity/”fame”, etc. And the percentage can never be known. But it is a bit off-topic surely? I assume the piece is more about the moral duty of her guardian/mother and the radio show than whether she was telling the truth or not.
Rachel:
I couldn’t agree with you more, but NO ONE is talking about law. We’re talking about public personal response to a girl saying she was raped.
She hasn’t made an accusation, and has in fact called off the investigation so that there will not BE an accusation. She simply stated something that happened to her, and as there will be no court case she is under no obligation to defend or prove that charge. She is not entering the legal system, so your comments about the legal system are irrelevant
Nope, never denied that it happens. I did deny that it happens “all the time”, or even enough time for the assumption that a woman is lying about rape cannot be based on statistical likelihood. To summarise: It’s far more likely that Random Woman A has been raped than that she is lodging a false allegation.
I’m sorry to hear that.
Now wouldn’t it be really fucked up if I responded to that statement with “BUllshit, you’re probably just making it up to get attention”? More importantly, what kind of a person would I be if that was my first response upon hearing a total stranger mention their rape? That’s what my comment was about.
The rest of your comment is just repeating your misconception that I’ve claimed false allegations never ever ever ever happen. Not the case.
Vitihiti
It’s extremely off topic, and I’m really losing patience.
Hexy,
After taking a rather extensive look at your own personal site, I have come to the conclusion that it is better just to drop the subject now…
Wow. I was MIA all weekend (and the end of last week) and so I missed this thread, but Rachel… yeah. Better to drop it. Thanks.
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