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	<title>Comments on: Taking the Erotic Out of Sexual Culture</title>
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	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/08/04/taking-the-erotic-out-of-sexual-culture/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:14:04 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Melissa Gira Grant &#187; Under the umbrella of sex: or, Foucault&#8217;s wet dream</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/08/04/taking-the-erotic-out-of-sexual-culture/#comment-280063</link>
		<dc:creator>Melissa Gira Grant &#187; Under the umbrella of sex: or, Foucault&#8217;s wet dream</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 21:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=15041#comment-280063</guid>
		<description>[...] or development, or health, or human rights, this isn&#8217;t abstract. We can say from experience, we are not usually turned on when gathered around those tables together. Even at St. James Infirmary, which is a pretty sexy place to work, the exam rooms adorned with [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] or development, or health, or human rights, this isn&#8217;t abstract. We can say from experience, we are not usually turned on when gathered around those tables together. Even at St. James Infirmary, which is a pretty sexy place to work, the exam rooms adorned with [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Deerskin &#171; Life Under A Rock</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/08/04/taking-the-erotic-out-of-sexual-culture/#comment-272193</link>
		<dc:creator>Deerskin &#171; Life Under A Rock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=15041#comment-272193</guid>
		<description>[...] the book, I noticed this because it was so at odds with my memory, and it made me think of this post from Feministe.  In particular this passage: [. . .] thinking about sexuality on a daily, hourly, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the book, I noticed this because it was so at odds with my memory, and it made me think of this post from Feministe.  In particular this passage: [. . .] thinking about sexuality on a daily, hourly, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Kennerson</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/08/04/taking-the-erotic-out-of-sexual-culture/#comment-268209</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Kennerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 00:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=15041#comment-268209</guid>
		<description>I just discvered this discussion, and I am so duly impressed with both Dacia&#039;s principal argument and that of the commentators included.

Being both a political sex radical and a fan of erotica/porn, I too find it difficult sometimes to get people to distinguish between the erotic, sexual realm and the more intellectual, more inflective realm of sexual discussion. It is often way to easy for  someone who fits the stereotype of an openly sexual woman to not be taken seriously for her intellect when she goes outside of her &quot;role&quot;...just as it&#039;s often just as difficult for someone known for his/her intellect to be upfront and honest about his/her sexuality and the ways in which it affects our culture and politics without the usual sensationalization and commodification.

Plus...being a generally typical man who tends to support and in some cases worship overtly sexual AND intellectual women, I make it my duty as a sex radical to point out that these ladies (and men) are far  more than the sum of their lingerie or measurments or sex toys, but are in fact human beings capable of independent thoughts and feelings on issues outside of sexuality. I understand that it sometimes does become difficult sometimes to seperate the person from the fantasy that they sell in their profession...but the only way that we will be able to completely respect and give support to their full right to humanity is to give them that space and that respect to be more than just the sum of our deepest fantasies...regardless of how much pleasure we may get from such.

This isn&#039;t to say that we should do away with spaces where people can safely and consensually ogle, flirt, and even talk dirty and enjoy shared fantasies with each other; it is to say that there MUST be just as many spaces available where we can discuss sexuality free from such distractions, and where there is no pressure to act out or &quot;put out&quot;.

By the same token, however, we cannot avoid the  basic fact that there are still reactionary elements of our culture that will interpret even the most muted attempt at destigmatification of erotic shaming to the least common denominator and inflect and impose the worst form of humiliation via the typical channels of vulgar resentiment. As easy it may be to decry the prevalence of overtly sexual imagery and discourse, I&#039;d much rather an oversexed society than one that is sexually restricted, truncated, and fundamentally neutered.

Just my nickel&#039;s worth.


Anthony</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just discvered this discussion, and I am so duly impressed with both Dacia&#8217;s principal argument and that of the commentators included.</p>
<p>Being both a political sex radical and a fan of erotica/porn, I too find it difficult sometimes to get people to distinguish between the erotic, sexual realm and the more intellectual, more inflective realm of sexual discussion. It is often way to easy for  someone who fits the stereotype of an openly sexual woman to not be taken seriously for her intellect when she goes outside of her &#8220;role&#8221;&#8230;just as it&#8217;s often just as difficult for someone known for his/her intellect to be upfront and honest about his/her sexuality and the ways in which it affects our culture and politics without the usual sensationalization and commodification.</p>
<p>Plus&#8230;being a generally typical man who tends to support and in some cases worship overtly sexual AND intellectual women, I make it my duty as a sex radical to point out that these ladies (and men) are far  more than the sum of their lingerie or measurments or sex toys, but are in fact human beings capable of independent thoughts and feelings on issues outside of sexuality. I understand that it sometimes does become difficult sometimes to seperate the person from the fantasy that they sell in their profession&#8230;but the only way that we will be able to completely respect and give support to their full right to humanity is to give them that space and that respect to be more than just the sum of our deepest fantasies&#8230;regardless of how much pleasure we may get from such.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t to say that we should do away with spaces where people can safely and consensually ogle, flirt, and even talk dirty and enjoy shared fantasies with each other; it is to say that there MUST be just as many spaces available where we can discuss sexuality free from such distractions, and where there is no pressure to act out or &#8220;put out&#8221;.</p>
<p>By the same token, however, we cannot avoid the  basic fact that there are still reactionary elements of our culture that will interpret even the most muted attempt at destigmatification of erotic shaming to the least common denominator and inflect and impose the worst form of humiliation via the typical channels of vulgar resentiment. As easy it may be to decry the prevalence of overtly sexual imagery and discourse, I&#8217;d much rather an oversexed society than one that is sexually restricted, truncated, and fundamentally neutered.</p>
<p>Just my nickel&#8217;s worth.</p>
<p>Anthony</p>
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		<title>By: maymay</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/08/04/taking-the-erotic-out-of-sexual-culture/#comment-267979</link>
		<dc:creator>maymay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Aug 2009 19:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=15041#comment-267979</guid>
		<description>You have resounding agreement from me on this, as well. This post of yours reminded of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wakingvixen.com/blog/2009/03/06/sunday-kink-for-all-unconference-in-nyc/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;another post of yours citing your &quot;top 3 reasons for coming to KinkForAll New York City&quot;,&lt;/a&gt; one of which was, and I quote:

&lt;blockquote&gt;[KinkForAll] is the perfect event to go to if you’ve always wanted to check out a sex/kink related conference but are afraid that you’ll be swarmed by naked people who are not aesthetically to your liking. It’s the perfect event to go to if you’ve always wanted to check out a sex/kink event but think you don’t know anything or won’t be part of the in crowd. It’s the perfect event to go to if you are in the [local] area but have no money and are curious about this kind of event. There are lots of reasons I’m going, but the &lt;strong&gt;clothes-on&lt;/strong&gt;, free, open reasons are my main ones.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

(Emphasis mine.)

The whole notion that sex and sexuality permeates everyday living is so often hijacked by sensationalism that we forget how fundamental our gender and sex life are to everything that we do. I strongly believe that the only way to bring more sex-positive professionals into the everyday world is to create more spaces where sexuality is not erotic but pragmatic. KinkForAll and the Sex Worker Literati are but two of these—not nearly enough.

Thank you so much for everything that you do, Audacia. You&#039;re one of my heros.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have resounding agreement from me on this, as well. This post of yours reminded of <a href="http://www.wakingvixen.com/blog/2009/03/06/sunday-kink-for-all-unconference-in-nyc/" rel="nofollow">another post of yours citing your &#8220;top 3 reasons for coming to KinkForAll New York City&#8221;,</a> one of which was, and I quote:</p>
<blockquote><p>[KinkForAll] is the perfect event to go to if you’ve always wanted to check out a sex/kink related conference but are afraid that you’ll be swarmed by naked people who are not aesthetically to your liking. It’s the perfect event to go to if you’ve always wanted to check out a sex/kink event but think you don’t know anything or won’t be part of the in crowd. It’s the perfect event to go to if you are in the [local] area but have no money and are curious about this kind of event. There are lots of reasons I’m going, but the <strong>clothes-on</strong>, free, open reasons are my main ones.</p></blockquote>
<p>(Emphasis mine.)</p>
<p>The whole notion that sex and sexuality permeates everyday living is so often hijacked by sensationalism that we forget how fundamental our gender and sex life are to everything that we do. I strongly believe that the only way to bring more sex-positive professionals into the everyday world is to create more spaces where sexuality is not erotic but pragmatic. KinkForAll and the Sex Worker Literati are but two of these—not nearly enough.</p>
<p>Thank you so much for everything that you do, Audacia. You&#8217;re one of my heros.</p>
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		<title>By: Trixie</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/08/04/taking-the-erotic-out-of-sexual-culture/#comment-267708</link>
		<dc:creator>Trixie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 23:47:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=15041#comment-267708</guid>
		<description>Such good points/distinctions to make, and something that I wish friends and family would understand, too: it IS possible for us to talk about aspects of my work as an internet pornographer/webwhore (both the sexual and, especially the NONsexual aspects of it) without it turning into a encounter with each other. At least, I *think* it is, but lots of people seem to think going into any sort of detail, or even just mentioning words that refer to my work (ex. &quot;customer&quot;, &quot;my site&quot;, &quot;I can&#039;t on Friday because we have webcam shows scheduled&quot;), is crossing some boundary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Such good points/distinctions to make, and something that I wish friends and family would understand, too: it IS possible for us to talk about aspects of my work as an internet pornographer/webwhore (both the sexual and, especially the NONsexual aspects of it) without it turning into a encounter with each other. At least, I *think* it is, but lots of people seem to think going into any sort of detail, or even just mentioning words that refer to my work (ex. &#8220;customer&#8221;, &#8220;my site&#8221;, &#8220;I can&#8217;t on Friday because we have webcam shows scheduled&#8221;), is crossing some boundary.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamey</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/08/04/taking-the-erotic-out-of-sexual-culture/#comment-267506</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=15041#comment-267506</guid>
		<description>I completely believe that the whole issue is getting better, due in no small part, to people like you (all of you here).  Reading Susie Bright (and Sallie Tisdale to plug another one of my favorites) as a young male, undoubtedly changed my life.  Having a forum (in the form of books) in which actual women and men, discussed actual sex, and all the things they thought and felt about it, warded off a growing tide of masculine resentment.  Just knowing I wasn&#039;t alone, and others wanted to find a better way to live with sexual desire was the fuel I needed.

All men are not always wolves, and all women are not always sheep.  But it is still the predominant societal view that they are such.  Feeling differently is confusing.  Being young and filled with desire, and having that desire unfulfilled, is confusing to us all.  Some people go looking for someone to blame for having their desire unfulfilled.  I went looking for compatriots.  Others who felt like me.  Having alternative views expressed in public is invaluable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely believe that the whole issue is getting better, due in no small part, to people like you (all of you here).  Reading Susie Bright (and Sallie Tisdale to plug another one of my favorites) as a young male, undoubtedly changed my life.  Having a forum (in the form of books) in which actual women and men, discussed actual sex, and all the things they thought and felt about it, warded off a growing tide of masculine resentment.  Just knowing I wasn&#8217;t alone, and others wanted to find a better way to live with sexual desire was the fuel I needed.</p>
<p>All men are not always wolves, and all women are not always sheep.  But it is still the predominant societal view that they are such.  Feeling differently is confusing.  Being young and filled with desire, and having that desire unfulfilled, is confusing to us all.  Some people go looking for someone to blame for having their desire unfulfilled.  I went looking for compatriots.  Others who felt like me.  Having alternative views expressed in public is invaluable.</p>
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		<title>By: Susie Bright</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/08/04/taking-the-erotic-out-of-sexual-culture/#comment-267485</link>
		<dc:creator>Susie Bright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 15:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=15041#comment-267485</guid>
		<description>Thank you for writing this... and all the comments. I feel like throwing in the towel at times. Don&#039;t know why I change my mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for writing this&#8230; and all the comments. I feel like throwing in the towel at times. Don&#8217;t know why I change my mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Stephanie Buehler</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/08/04/taking-the-erotic-out-of-sexual-culture/#comment-267101</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Stephanie Buehler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 01:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=15041#comment-267101</guid>
		<description>Thanks for writing this post.  It makes me think of what is called the &quot;good enough sex model,&quot; so called by Dr. Barry McCarthy.  He says that most people in long term relationships should lower their expectations to have good sex a good percent of the time, and fantastic sex and crappy sex a small percent of the time.  Sounds okay, right?  But if I mention the name of this model to clients, they roll their eyes and say, &quot;I don&#039;t want sex that&#039;s &#039;good enough.&#039;&quot;  So I call it something else and voila, breakthrough.  My point is that it is difficult to talk about sex in a way that is down-to-earth and more in line with sex-in-relationship.  It&#039;s all about titillation.  But trust me, in my work we get down to the heart of things, so to speak, and it really comes down to trust, connection, love, and the need to simply be with someone that cares in a close, intimate way--not very sexy, I&#039;m afraid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for writing this post.  It makes me think of what is called the &#8220;good enough sex model,&#8221; so called by Dr. Barry McCarthy.  He says that most people in long term relationships should lower their expectations to have good sex a good percent of the time, and fantastic sex and crappy sex a small percent of the time.  Sounds okay, right?  But if I mention the name of this model to clients, they roll their eyes and say, &#8220;I don&#8217;t want sex that&#8217;s &#8216;good enough.&#8217;&#8221;  So I call it something else and voila, breakthrough.  My point is that it is difficult to talk about sex in a way that is down-to-earth and more in line with sex-in-relationship.  It&#8217;s all about titillation.  But trust me, in my work we get down to the heart of things, so to speak, and it really comes down to trust, connection, love, and the need to simply be with someone that cares in a close, intimate way&#8211;not very sexy, I&#8217;m afraid.</p>
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		<title>By: MJ</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/08/04/taking-the-erotic-out-of-sexual-culture/#comment-266914</link>
		<dc:creator>MJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 15:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=15041#comment-266914</guid>
		<description>Bound, Not Gagged wrote up a great &#039;How to be an Ally to Sex Workers&#039; post --- in it is a part that I&#039;ll always remember and will have to repeat whereever I go:

&quot;2)  If you are a client, understand that sex industry organizing is not a forum for finding dates.  Also, opposition to client/police/management violence on the part of sex workers rights activists is not a slight against you personally.  Please be respectful, humble, and avoid ogling or flirting with the other activists.&quot;

The ogling and flirting part is key, there are many who flock to sex worker organizing events and clearly are not allies or activists and are there with the expectation that they are surrounded by highly-sexed women or women who are &#039;easy&#039; or who will fuck them after the show (maybe even for free!!), being mindful of their presence and challenging it is key to the progress of our movement... and it is certainly difficult to do----- great post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bound, Not Gagged wrote up a great &#8216;How to be an Ally to Sex Workers&#8217; post &#8212; in it is a part that I&#8217;ll always remember and will have to repeat whereever I go:</p>
<p>&#8220;2)  If you are a client, understand that sex industry organizing is not a forum for finding dates.  Also, opposition to client/police/management violence on the part of sex workers rights activists is not a slight against you personally.  Please be respectful, humble, and avoid ogling or flirting with the other activists.&#8221;</p>
<p>The ogling and flirting part is key, there are many who flock to sex worker organizing events and clearly are not allies or activists and are there with the expectation that they are surrounded by highly-sexed women or women who are &#8216;easy&#8217; or who will fuck them after the show (maybe even for free!!), being mindful of their presence and challenging it is key to the progress of our movement&#8230; and it is certainly difficult to do&#8212;&#8211; great post!</p>
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		<title>By: Bacchus</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/08/04/taking-the-erotic-out-of-sexual-culture/#comment-266614</link>
		<dc:creator>Bacchus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 17:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/?p=15041#comment-266614</guid>
		<description>I agree with Nentuaby #7 that the problem is a sort of cognitive limitation.  When I post a potentially-erotic picture on my blog, I discover that some of my audience is so confused about what is happening that they will post crude propositional comments directed at the model depicted in the photograph.  After moderating away many hundreds of such comments, I&#039;ve become convinced that these commenters are suffering a specific cognitive malfunction in which sexual material knocks their faculties into disarray; they seem genuinely unable to follow the narrative thread, in that they cannot distinguish between who is speaking (the photographer and sometimes the model), who is quoting (me, the publisher), and who is reading (the commenter and the world at large, but most often not the model).

An alternative explanation is that they know they aren&#039;t literally speaking to the model and object of their lust; rather, they lack language that&#039;s coded to allow them to express lust or sexual attraction in the abstract or appropriately-directed to an audience of fellow viewers and aesthetes.  So they fall back on misdirected crudely propositional language, that being all they&#039;ve got.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Nentuaby #7 that the problem is a sort of cognitive limitation.  When I post a potentially-erotic picture on my blog, I discover that some of my audience is so confused about what is happening that they will post crude propositional comments directed at the model depicted in the photograph.  After moderating away many hundreds of such comments, I&#8217;ve become convinced that these commenters are suffering a specific cognitive malfunction in which sexual material knocks their faculties into disarray; they seem genuinely unable to follow the narrative thread, in that they cannot distinguish between who is speaking (the photographer and sometimes the model), who is quoting (me, the publisher), and who is reading (the commenter and the world at large, but most often not the model).</p>
<p>An alternative explanation is that they know they aren&#8217;t literally speaking to the model and object of their lust; rather, they lack language that&#8217;s coded to allow them to express lust or sexual attraction in the abstract or appropriately-directed to an audience of fellow viewers and aesthetes.  So they fall back on misdirected crudely propositional language, that being all they&#8217;ve got.</p>
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