And while it may be true that in our society in which we choose our leaders we have an overwhelming tendency to choose males, many realize that it is an instinctual reaction to thousands of years of patriarchal leaders.

If it’s “instinctual,” then it’s not something we “choose.” You insist that we are more sentient and thus have more free will, but in order to explain the–pardon the phrase–persistence of patriarchy, you fall back on an explanation where free will is decidedly absent. Or, what you’re really trying to say is that the “tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living.” If, then, you believe that history matters, then I have a hard time seeing how you can say there is no power imbalance (historical or otherwise) between women and men.
Either way, you’ve completely contradicted yourself in a rather sad attempt to derail the thread. (Maybe I’m just feeding a troll?)

“Due to the patriarchal nature of gender relations, many men believe that they exist with the right to access women’s bodies and that is specifically grounded in the power imbalance between the genders.”

There is something very, very wrong with this. There is no power imbalance between the “genders”. In our human culture, we are primarily patriarchal (however flexible, with some matriarchal societies), in which men control politics and resources, but to say that males and females are somehow ‘at war’ and that males are always dominant over females in nature simply isn’t true see meekats, elephants, bonobos ect. Also, humans are highly sentient. Have you noticed? We set up democracies and stuff. That means that we have more will and control over our actions than other animals. And while it may be true that in our society in which we choose our leaders we have an overwhelming tendency to choose males, many realize that it is an instinctual reaction to thousands of years of patriarchal leaders.

I think you have some serious hang-ups about your own genitalia. I’ve been there. You hear about all the women who are massacred by their husbands, you remember your pathetic mom scrubbing the floor maybe, maybe your dad liked to storm into the house all self-important, maybe you were raped, I don’t know. Whatever happened to you, it’s making you look at yourself like your cunt makes you “submissive” in a society, and it doesn’t. I am so sick of girls putting themselves in that place, putting THEMSELVES in that place. And when men hear you describing yourself as sexually submissive somehow because of your gender that is how they will see all women (they are like babies that way), and will have to be violently (pleasurably?) corrected by their next wild girlfriend. Or they’ll date another woman like you, and continue for the rest of their lives thinking women are all sexually insecure. And they base opinions on this narrow pool of information, tell their friends, this forms into a stereotype that ultimately gets reflected back onto ME and girls like me.

Totally off-topic, but I think some young woman out there needed to hear it. I’m sick of hearing males discribed as dominant, I’m sick of archaic human sexual behavior coloring how we view all biological life, including our own (note: archaic). I’m sick of having women describe penetration, sex, ect, as a “submissive” or “passive” act on their part. If it is, you’re either playing a “game” or you’re doing it wrong!

Strange comment to be coming out of someone who declared, “seems she got the things she most desired.” You sure the hell positioned yourself to make a determination about what “she most desired.”

Do you honestly believe that one of Sally Hemings’ most deepest desires was to be a slave? She certainly didn’t want that for her children; what makes you think she wanted that for herself? Have you even read any slave narratives? Here’s a news flash for you pal, people do not want to be enslaved.

And for what it’s worth, this attitude is far from something that exists in the past. People are enslaved in the here and now. Women are enslaved in the here in now. Ever hear of sex trafficking? Sex tourism?

I judge people based on their behavior rather than their words. Behavior is a better indicator of one’s true intent. Behavior reveals what words mask.

As for “class politics”, funny you say “class politics” rather than “race politics” or even “class and race politics”. Funny your use of the word “politics”, as if Sally Hemings had any ability to “politic” at all, as an enslaved, disenfranchised individual. Your use of the term “politics” is to mask the tremendous power differential that quite clearly existed between Jefferson and Hemings. I prefer the term “oppression” to indicate what is really going on—both then, in this example with Hemings, and now all over the damn world.

Now with that said, you’d be a rapist’s best friend on a jury, what with this, “oh, we don’t really know what happened; it’s all he said/she said. She’s still alive after all, so it couldn’t have really been rape.

@La Lubu…

You know nothing real of either of the individuals concerned nor the time in which they lived.

Neither you nor I are positioned to really make any determination as to what went between those two folk. Personally I will not permit hatred to lead me in my judgement of anybody particularly if that hatred stems from class politics.

Basically and in a very real way yes. These sort of inequalities are very very wrong.

I was reading a look recently that talked about the old days of repression and slavery in ireland. The men of the big house used to sleep with their tenants wives and daughters. If they said no, the whole family was evicted and they died on the street.

This is basically the same thing. Without the ability for one person to say no, then what you are doing is wrong.

Well let’s see now: she didn’t get her freedom. She didn’t get her children by Jefferson formally recognized as his children, with the same rights to inheritance as his other children. She not only didn’t get to have him as a husband, she didn’t even get recognition as his mistress. “Well done young lady” indeed. You know goddamn good and well she didn’t have the ability to have her “no” heard, so regardless of what decisions she had to make in a tight spot in order to survive, any “adoration” Jefferson may have claimed to have felt (though certainly not publically, where it counts—-y’know, if you can’t stand up and shout to the world how much you love someone, it isn’t love) is meaningless. Absofuckinglutely meaningless.

He “adored” her enough to keep her as his slave. That says it all. Actions, people. Not words.

Re-read the last sentence of my main paragraph.

This discussion both startles and saddens me. In some quarters it seems that even a celibate male would be hard pressed to escape the label “rapist”.

But that, on it’s own, wouldn’t normally entice me to come out of hiding.

No matter how benevolent my acts may seem today I sometimes wonder if they will be viewed so positively, say, a hundred or a hundred and fifty years hence. I would hope those future observers would recognise changing cultural values as a factor should they view me negatively.

I am not American. However I do know the potted history being refered to in this discussion(thus goes the modern cultural hegemony I guess). Even through this rather negative portrayal I still get a sense that Jefferson likely adored this woman. And that she exerted considerable infleunce over him in at least some respects. I find myself thinking “well done young lady”. Seems she got the things she most desired.

Still, never mind me. Let the character assassination resume.

That was an elegant response on your part. I agree that the veil can be worn voluntarily, even if it is just to avoid the western tyranny of female beauty. Nevertheless, my intention was to speak specifically about the burka and the cultures that enforce it (such as the Taliban). The veil can be seen as just clothing, but the burka to me is very different. It’s a prison. During the debate about the ban in France I was wondering what these women were thinking, but I never heard their voices, which is telling.

Going back to the topic. I wonder if people here would be able to state that all married Afghan women have been raped and that all their husbands are rapist. Was it possible for Afghan women to be in love with their husbands under a regime where they were treated as property?