You said: “Joe, just because your immigrant ancestors didn’t rape and pillage doesn’t mean most of the immigrants to this country didn’t.”

And your point is? First of all that statement is obviously false, but whatever. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that’s it’s true. Say, that the majority of immigrants to the USA did do some degree of raping and pillaging. What’s your point? How does that inform a debate about immigration reform?

You said: “And yes, compared to American Indians I’m NOT a real American, and no, neither are you.”

Explain to me just how useful this argument or line of thinking is, and consider why what you just said might be considered truly offensive. I’m a liberal-minded, well-educated ethnic minority and proud citizen of Oakland. I value diversity in every respect and love that I live in a place where I can learn and benefit from a myriad of cultures. That said, seriously people — quit with the “This isn’t your country” arguments. Seriously. Not because it’s not based in truth–I’m not a moron; I know that American Indians were conquered and it’s hugely unjust–but because it’s a moot point and is only used to evoke an emotional reaction during debates that have nothing to do with the settling of America.

Seriously, what do you want me to do with that argument? Okay, so you think you and I aren’t as American as, say, someone with partial or full ties to a native tribe. I respectfully disagree, but you can believe whatever you want. In my humble opinion, my level of “American-ism” is based on my citizenship–my nationality. I was born here. My parents weren’t. But we’re all American citizens. In my opinion, I am no more American than they are, and my American Indian neighbor is no more “American” than any of us. We are all equally “American.” But if you want to encourage more division in our communities by suggesting that some are more worthy of the title of “American” than others, then go for it.

In any case, the status of American Indians in this country is a moot point when it comes to this particular discussion. What are you going to do, overthrow the country and hand it back to the reservations? Rename the country? Move all descendants of early settlers back to Europe? Of course not. So ask yourself, just how useful is this line of thinking? You make an interesting, though divisive, point. Now what do you want me to do with it?

You also said: “Living in Oakland you should know better than this” – Okay… Better than what? What have I said that is so ignorant or wrong?

So I believe that those who enter this country illegally have no legal right to be here. This is a fact, not an opinion. I will go further, though, and opine that this is how it should be. If I illegally entered, say, South Africa, or if I went there but stayed past my visa’s expiration, that would be my fault, and I would expect that I would have to face the consequences—deportation, fines, paperwork, possible incarceration. No country could exist or maintain its security without some sort of immigration control. Would you prefer open borders and unregulated population flow? I do feel for the families of those involved, particularly as these situations too often involve children and the eventual splitting of families. I feel compassion for these families, trust me I do. And I’m not one of those morons who believes that illegal immigrants are all criminals or deadbeats. But, that said, there are channels (that admittedly must be reformed and streamlined) for legal immigration. To tolerate immigration of any other kind is, at its most innocuous, a slap in the face to those who immigrated legally, and at its most dangerous, a serious national security issue.

Yes, immigration reform is emotional and drenched in racial and cultural overtones. I’m not denying that those are intrinsic aspects of this debate. What I am arguing is that there are enough of those aspects to this debate already and that to fuel those flames with race-baiting and divisive talk isn’t helpful to anyone.

And yes, compared to American Indians I’m NOT a real American, and no, neither are you.

Getting indignant at someone for pointing out the no duh obviousness of that fact is silly, and doesn’t do you “any favors” either.

Living in Oakland you should know better than this, this is a city built on radical community organizing AND that has quite a few resources and organizations for what indigenous community is left around here.

Sometimes a stance on immigration law is merely that — a stance on immigration law. Not a racist remark, not xenophobic, not anti-labor, not anti-Hispanic, not inhuman — just a stance on how immigration should be handled in this country.

No country could sustain itself without some form of immigration control. Period. There is no question that our immigration system needs reform. But framing this as a racial or cultural war isn’t helpful.

And please don’t respond with something like:

“Go back to your own country with your intolerance – or did you forget your ancestors raped and pillaged the natives and that you’re actually not an American?”

My ancestors did nothing of the sort. My parents were legal immigrants. And yes, I AM actually American.

I am in the UK so I don’t know enough about Mexican immigration to comment on some of the arguments above. However I know in the UK immigrants, both legal and illegal do many of the jobs that people born here don’t want to do. Without immigrants many of the crucial but horrible jobs like fruit picking would go unfilled.

But large scale immigration can present challenges as well. As a young child I went to a school that was one third Asian immigrants which was fine. But my friends white daughter went to a local school where her child was the only British born child and the children all spopke Urdu in the playground, not English. Her daughter felt very isolated as a result and her mother removed her and sent her to another more mixed school.

I’m sure her mother would be called racist by some people for doing this, but such large scale immigration does cause real problems between individuals. That said this is a very rare situation. There are only a handful of places in the UK where the local population has such a high proportion of immigrants and as I understand, overall immigration in America is pretty low.

To the poster who said we wouldn’t be eating pizza, pasta, tacos, etc if it wasn’t for immigrants. I don’t know in America, but in the UK pizza and pasta became popular through foreign holidays, not immigration. These food items became popular at a time when few people had, in the UK ever met anyone Italian except on holiday. Tacos came to the UK largely through the american fast food culture and chains such as Taco Bell.

Just wanted to point out that foreign influences on cultures come through a wide number of ways, not just immigration. And this has always been the case. For example in the UK, influence on our architecture in the 18th and 19th century was often through eccliastical travellers who had visited cathedrals in Europe.

If any of the rest of y’all won’t take it from me that 287(g) sucks, listen to Nezua:

http://xolagrafik.com/mira/2009/09/07/news-with-nezua-287g-a-chilling-story-of-official-hate/

Massive immigration, legal and illegal, which is overpopulating our country to projected unsustainable numbers, is actually creating the need for many of the jobs these folks fill!

No, George, my kids cannot compete with some of the stuff going on. In our family we have seen one relative fired from an IT job and forced to train his foreign replacement who was imported to work at much lower pay. You apparently know nothing about this common practice, but I won’t call you a moron.

We have another guy in the family and another guy, a friend of mine, who lost their construction contracting businesses because they would NOT employ illegal labor and were underbid by those who did, because the latter paid their workers less.

I won’t get into the unfair competition imposed by the hijacking of U.S. affirmative action and minority set-aside programs.

And I won’t get into your bigotry against Southerners, George, but I’d put my IQ up against yours any day.

According to Census and other welfare statistics, the United States is approaching (forced) support of the majority of American residents by a minority of Americans. This is a recipe for revolution. We will see who the morons are then, George — you and your ilk or the people who saw this disaster coming 30 years ago and tried to warn their fellow Americans.

And by the way, the premise of the original post here by Betsy Phillips is illogical, because illegal aliens of all nationalities and races are here, and all are subject to deportation and have been deported, and Canadians and European whites stand a greater chance of deported if caught because they haven’t the massive funding of the Latino open-borders groups, MALDEF, etc., that swing into action and fight deportation of Latinos.

More Latinos are deported because illegal migration to our country is coming overwhelmingly from Latin America, and most of that is from Mexico.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the work of the Center for Immigration Studies, cis.org, and NumbersUSA. numbersusa.com.

Get off your ass and compete! Tough luck! It is a global economy..you are the scumbag who wants white privilege and does not like competition!