I was always skinny growing up and I remember constantly having that be called out by female friends who treated me jealously or callously because of it. I had a 5-year friendship with a girl and eventually ended that after she humiliated me at a birthday party of a shared friend. Then a sometimes good, mostly torturous 9-year relationship with a girl in high school. It took a turn when I was jumped by two other girls and she stood by and watched me get beat up without trying to help. I stayed her friend, but then we eventually drifted and now I rarely see her. In all of these relationships there was a common thread; all the friends I did make tried to dominate me or belittle me, and for whatever reason, I let them.

It didn’t really help that I grew up in a traditional Slavic household where gender roles were separated and, though I always feel guilty saying this because it feels like I’m stereotyping, all the women did talk about was weight, babies, and the dress they were buying for the next wedding. Feminism was unheard of. If it was it was considered laughable. As a girl I found myself always yearning to hang out with my uncles and brother and their friends. It just seemed like that’s where all the action was, like that’s where my destiny would be, to be adventurous and exploratory like they were, not a little housewife like I was expected to be. And even though I was rarely if ever included with them, it felt good to know that they were there. It was like they represented a different life for me, an example of a better, freer way of living. They seemed to judge me less harshly too. A lot of the gender-policing in my life came from women, not men.

However, I’ve never had a deep friendship with a man. I think in regard to depth I look to women. I probably always will. Upon the realization that I was bisexual, I also came to realize that I sometimes had feelings for women that ran deeper than friendship. It’s only now I feel like I’ve finally met a friend that is really on my wavelength. She’s a fellow feminist; my first real fully, gloriously aware feminist friend. She’s also 5 years older than me and in graduate school which makes her kind of my hero. I met her at a rock and roll camp for girls where we both volunteered. I really like her. I only see her once a month because she goes to school upstate but I hope we stay friends. I will admit that I value men very much too though, because I really feel immediately comfortable with them, whereas with women it takes some searching and probing before I let myself go enough to really trust them. Then again, I’m also that way with men, but romantically. As friends I’m totally comfortable but sexually or romantically, I find men much harder to trust. I think I’m deeply untrusting of both genders, but in different ways. But I think I really have it in me to love a female friend deeply. I hope I have that experience one day.

It’s heartening to read all these posts describing similar feelings. I was taking a Women’s Studies class this semester in college and I mentioned something about how I always seemed to gravitate toward men as a child and appreciated their company. After that I pretty much heard crickets chirping. I was very surprised and a little embarassed, as if I’d just said something very unfeminist. It was like no one knew what I was talking about, like no one had ever heard of such a thing.

Thanks for this post. It really got me thinking.

I’ve heard it theorized that the reason “Sex and the City” is so wildly popular among suburban wives is not because of the glamorous city life it depicts, but because it’s about strong female friendships that have lasted into their 30s and 40s.

It’s one of the reasons I always watched “Sex & the City,” to be sure. I didn’t enjoy the fashion and the New York angle a whole lot (I like New York, but there are other cities I tend to mythologize), it mostly struck me as a fantasy meant for someone else, but there are moments I remember very fondly. Such as when Carrie can’t take her diaphragm out, and she asks Samantha to help, and Samantha’s all like, “OK, but you’re buying me dinner.” Not only is it hilarious, but I think it’s oddly touching too (pun not intended).

I think it can be tough to balance love and friendship for anyone, but I feel like with the pace of life that currently exists in the U.S., it’s even tougher. And women are, naturally, expected to sacrifice more in that department, for the benefit of the men. Though in my experience, it’s always been the dudes who “forget” me when they get a new girlfriend/get married, etc. I confronted a couple of them about it, over the years, and I get the whole, “well, my gf will be jealous” thing. It’s like, “honey, don’t flatter yourself. I don’t actually want you, you know.” It usually works out in the end, but still, it can be painful.

But that’s just anecdote, of course.

I have a lot of female friends who, even if they don’t identify as feminist, hold many of the values. As Susan Bordo wrote in “Unbearable Weight”, “feminist cultural criticism is not a blueprint for the conduct of personal life and does not empower (or require) individuals to ‘rise above’ their culture or to become martyrs to feminist ideals.”

My female friends remind me every day that there are many, many ways to be feminist. And they don’t all revolve around jeans.

And we might not want to be patronizing while doing it. Not that I’m saying that you are, but it’s just that you’re making it seem like there is this really neat break between “those women over there with babies and makeup” and “us true feminists.”

I didn’t mean to be patronizing, or assume that women who wear makeup and dress in a “girlie” way aren’t feminists; just that they’re not assumed to be to many other feminists. Maybe I’m only speaking for myself (not quite a girlie girl or… whatever the opposite is) and my own misperceptions when interacting with women who would fall under the “femme” category.

It was probably more of a self reminder, and one for other people like me, who are trying to not judge other women so quickly. I think part of it also comes from an internalized misogyny, in a way. Where we do not like the image of “girlie girl,” because it’s something that everyone makes fun of, so we don’t want to be associated with it.

I’m sorry if that was off-topic, Chally. I was just trying to chime in with a theory about why many of us “mostly male friends” gals might be that way, and how we might be able to get over it, because I agree 100% that having close friendships with other women is extremely important.

All we can do is help educate them about feminism and find common ground.

And we might not want to be patronizing while doing it. Not that I’m saying that you are, but it’s just that you’re making it seem like there is this really neat break between “those women over there with babies and makeup” and “us true feminists.” I think if one’s feminism is going to remain relevant in one’s friendships, it’s going to have to be both dynamic and inclusive. And I see this binary thing going on here, and it makes me think – well, that’s not how I go about friendships in general, let alone friendships with other women.

Of course, I wear enough makeup to make Janice Raymond weep, so I’m not even part of this conversation. Or am I?

I don’t think that this is true of these women, but that’s because I thought about it some more. It’s not fair for us to blame the woman for what she does to feel comfortable in a patriarchal society. All we can do is help educate them about feminism and find common ground.

As feminist women, we often reject the idea that women “ought” to be one thing or another, or conform to specific and particular rules about our gender presentation, our intellect, or our behavior. When we are comfortable rejecting these ideas and expectations, we often easily notice when other women are not rejecting these ideas, and are doing what they can to conform. This could mean that they do not have intellectual conversations, that they are obsessed with babies, that they wear a lot of makeup and say things like, “I really need to wear it, because [something's wrong with me].”

It’s easy to write those women off as trite and stupid and not worth our time, because it seems almost more appalling to see a woman behave in such a manner that implies that she is a proponent of such expectations than a man, because as a woman, she should really be aware of how she’s being oppressed and actively fight against it.

That’s my theory, anyway. Upon further thinking about this, though, most women would likely realize that if a fellow woman is not giving consideration to these notions, then it’s probably not because she chooses not to, but because she is still indoctrinated into the patriarchal mode of operation and simply doesn’t see it yet.

I’ve been slowly converting an “uber femme” female friend to feminism. She’s catching on, but she still says weird things that I don’t know how to respond to, like, she’ll hold a door open for me or call me “hon,” and then profusely apologize because it was sexist of her… ?!! Or tell me that it’s okay that I don’t wear makeup, because I have high cheekbones or something…

Anyway, it’s difficult to find common ground with women who aren’t feminists, is the main beef many of us feminist-with-mostly-male-friends have, I think.