Spoilers below!
This week, Sayid’s life sucks all around. Off the island, Nadia is married to Sayid’s brother, who Sayid bails out of trouble. On the island, Dogen and Flocke play ping pong with Sayid’s emotions and Flocke wins.
Read the discussion and add your own thoughts and theories (without any spoilers for episodes that haven’t aired yet).
General reactions to the episode?
SALLY: Evil Sayid is so unbearably hot. I just don’t know what to do with myself. It should be a crime to be that hot. Seriously, that’s not even fair.
CARA: He is hot! But at the same time I love Sayid, so I’m sad that he’s evil. In any case, I thought the fight between Sayid and Dogen at the beginning was badass and hot. As for the episode in general, it was exciting and entertaining, though it sadly didn’t contain any of my favorite falling off the edge of my seat moments.
SALLY: That was one of the best fight scenes in Lost history! I was beyond impressed!
SADY: At this point, Smokey just keeps recruiting all my favorite island people, so I’m happy. It is an all-star cast, lacking only Sun! And I’m always happy to spend an episode with Sayid. I have to say, though, on the topic of that fight scene, that this is my favorite thing about his episodes: That moment when you think they’re going to have a typical LOST dialogue about good and evil and scales and white rocks and black rocks and so on and so forth and then OH WHOA HEY EPIC PUNCHFIGHT! That always seems to be Sayid’s deal: punchfights and shootings at the precise moment the conversation starts to lag. Which I like!
LAUREN: I was convinced there was a bomb in that baseball or, like, an ankh key or something (this is Lost, right?) and was thus disappointed by Dogen’s schmaltzy back story. It might be cold-hearted, but I was still unmoved. In other news, I used to think Sayid was hot when he was being all commanding, but I like Sayid plain evil even better.
CARA: I was hoping the baseball was going to be a lot more interesting that Kate’s toy plane, too. I think I also failed to be moved because, dude, Dogen, you were driving drunk with your kid in the car? WTF?
JILL: My primary reaction: GO TEAM EVIL! All the good people are on Team Evil. I hope they win. And I think this is the best episode of the season. It reminds me a lot of the better Season 1 episodes.
In flash sideways world, Nadia is married to Sayid… ‘s brother. Apparently Sayid doesn’t think he deserves Nadia. Did anybody else’s heart melt?
CARA: Eh. I don’t know, I think I might be the only one, but I’m always annoyed with “I don’t deserve you! Even though being with me would make you happy, I’m not good enough, so farewell!” First of all, it’s trite. Secondly, it has always struck me as paternalistic. Especially when Sayid seemingly pushed Nadia into a marriage that she’s not very happy with! Bah.
SALLY: I wasn’t even thinking of it that way, more in the “awww, so there’s no sex scene in this episode?” way. But, yes, good point.
CARA: lol! Yes, that was a big issue. I was also really hoping that Sayid was going to be happy in at least one universe …
SADY: Chalk me down as one of the folks against, “I love you… and yet it cannot BE!” Like: Why can’t it, dude? And if you aren’t prepared to act on those feelings, why bring them up? I think it would be a more powerful scene if we got that feeling without Sayid having to give a PowerPoint presentation detailing his precise thoughts on their relationship. The actors have amazing chemistry though!
SALLY: They really do! I’m telling you, I wanted a sex scene…
Sayid’s brother is in business with our old friend Keamy. Sayid kills him, of course, and finds none other than Jin locked up in Keamy’s kitchen o’ torture. Where do you think this storyline’s going?
CARA: Oooh, I loved this. The guy who plays Keamy is just one scary ass dude. Obviously his character is terrifying, but there’s just something about that guy’s smile in general that chills me to the bone. I was thrilled to see Sayid kill him a second time! We never got a satisfying kill the first time around, what with Ben killing Keamy also resulting in what we at least thought was the death of Jin. This time, Keamy’s heart thankfully wasn’t hooked up to a humongous bomb.
SADY: Keamy scares me primarily because he is THE SIZE OF A BUILDING. He is huge! Rarely have I seen a human person that huge! Although, once again, this storyline demonstrated the Number One Rule of Sayid Episodes, which is: When you run out of small talk, start shooting.
SALLY: Keamy terrifies the bejeezus out of me.
LAUREN: And Jin! Jin in the fridge! What’s up with that?
CARA: I have no idea where the storyline is going. And honestly, I care a lot less than I wish I did. The flash sideways have left me a little cold. I’m a lot more interested in what’s happening off island in the original timeline with characters like Desmond, Eloise, and Widmore, which of course we’re not seeing. I want them to give me a reason to care. They haven’t, yet.
JILL: Oh I LOVE the flash sideways. I’m a sucker for the “gotcha!” moment when they reveal Who Sees Who Where. But: Keamy in a suit is even scarier than Keamy in army fatigues. And it makes sense that sideways-Jin is mixed up in some questionable shit.
SALLY: I hope Jin and Sayid become fast friends if only because I don’t think they have enough scenes together. Jin’s lack of English skills might make that hard though.
On the island, Dogen tells Sayid he must kill Flocke before he speaks. Sayid’s not quick enough and fails. Um, what kind of weirdo rule is this?
SALLY: The fan sites and forums are letting me down, but I was curious if any Egyptian mythology is related to this at all. Because that’s the only thing I could come up with and this strange rule seems the strangest one yet.
SADY: I think it’s almost more of a Christian mythology thing, in reference to Satan. Especially with the “you could have anything you want” bit. There is this Christian conception (and if this is the case for other beliefs, let me know; this is just the one I grew up with, and saw mirrored in pop culture and such) of the Ultimate Evil Force as very, very persuasive, verbally and otherwise. He’s supposed to be able to convince you of just about anything, quote Scripture to his purpose, point out that it’s weird you’re not allowed to eat from that one awesome tree, etcetera. Which is why you’re not supposed to listen, at all. That’s what I thought was going on there.
LAUREN: But I don’t remember, in the church I grew up in anyway, that if the devil merely says hello you’re chances of resistance are over. I wish they’d left that caveat out. There are all these pseudo-Christian references that, since they don’t follow Christian mythology, get really confusing. Like, in one episode we have Sayid in a Jesus pose and in the next he’s the angel of death. I’m confused.
SALLY: *scratches beard pensively* Interesting… very interesting…
SADY: By the bye: Have we noticed that Smokey got to (a) Claire, through her grief for Aaron, (b) Sawyer, through his grief for Juliet, and (c) Sayid, now, through his grief for Nadia? And Ben, because of his daughter, too! This seems to be a big part of how he rolls – targeting people who have lost someone recently, and using their grief and anger and whatnot to enlist them. I guess (sort of) that Jack and Hurley haven’t been enlisted by Jacob because of who they’ve lost, but because of what they stand to gain, maybe. I would say that neither of them has lost anyone, but that would be untrue. Because if Undead Christian was a PLOY OF THE SMOKE MONSTER, trying to get Jack closer to his side, then this confirms my theory a little!
LAUREN: So whose team are we all on? Obviously Sady is all Team Smokey, and I think I’m leaning that way too (Team Eye Candy! Team Rhetoric!). I’m annoyed at Jacob and the Others expecting everyone to throw caution to the wind and just have faith (um, magical island, anyone? caution needed?), whereas I like Flocke’s appeal to their rationality. He keeps pointing out how absurd the island and its rules are, and personally, anyone who is willing to point out the absurdity of a MAGICAL ISLAND is on my team. Is anyone on Team Jacob?
JILL: As I said in the first response: I am Team Evil all the way. All my faves are on Team Evil.
CARA: After last night, I’m increasingly leaning towards the idea that neither Smokey or Jacob is good. Up until this episode, I was still willing to give Jacob a chance, and thought he had a better shot at being good than Smokey did. Now, after numerous indications that Jacob is actually a douchebag, I’m pretty convinced that his heart isn’t quite in the right place. When Sayid said that everyone was free to go, that they were no longer being kept in the temple, I thought that perhaps this was just Smokey’s manipulative framing. Until Dogen told his story. And what kind of bullshit is “I’ll let your son live, but you’ll never get to see him again, and you’ll also be stuck on a creeptastic island for the rest of your life”? Not. Cool. And yeah, kind of evil.
SALLY: I’m on team Desmond! Such a team must exist because that’s where I want to be! Hopefully Miles, Richard, and other cool folks will join his team.
The one reveal: Miles confirms that Sayid was, in fact, dead for two hours before suddenly waking up. Thoughts?
CARA: I’m very sad to say it, but I think that Sayid actually is infected. I was hoping he wasn’t, but if he actually was dead, that’s a big point in favor of the theory. And his teaming up with Smokey doesn’t hurt, either.
SALLY: Yea, I’m going to start calling them Smoked Claire and Smoked Sayid. I, too, am sad that Sayid is evil but also not terribly surprised. My hope is that the good that’s left in him before the end of the series. Same with Claire. Otherwise, I can only assume that he’ll be killed some time soon…
SADY: I still think Flocke (and Claire! And Jin! And Sawyer! And Sayid! And, I repeat, BASICALLY EVERYONE I LIKE BUT SUN) might turn out to be a little bit more morally complex than Dogen’s “pure eeeeeevil” speech implied. At least I hope so. Every episode of LOST, I play “Don’t Stop Believing (Smokey is Good Remix)” during the commercials and just try to blank out over all those people he killed.
JILL: I’m with Sady – Team Evil is amazing and cannot be 100% pure evil. Sayid is probably infected, but we still don’t know what the infection is exactly, so it doesn’t necessarily make him evil. Also: Smokey does seem to want to get off the island, so I’m not sure I buy the “he wants to kill everyone” story.
LAUREN: I get the feeling that Smokey wants to kill everyone on the island as a protective measure — like everyone on it is collateral for another purpose. I like that he offers people choices, although I guess “you’re either with us or against us” isn’t much of a choice.
Flocke gets Sayid to kill Dogen and Lennon. Apparently Dogen being alive was the only thing stopping Smokey from getting into the temple. How is that? Is Dogen more significant than we realized?
CARA: The way that Sayid killed these two is really what absolutely convinces me that he is infected. He had justifiable reason to kill Dogen, seeing as how the guy had already tried to kill him at least twice, maybe three times. But he seemingly did it to let Smokey in, not to protect himself. Further, Sayid has always been either detached from or remorseful about his killings. When he killed Dogen and Lennon, he seemed almost happy about it, like he got some perverse kind of pleasure from it. That’s not the Sayid that we know.
SADY: Yeah. The thing I have always loved about Sayid is how chill and polite he is under these incredibly trying and often violent circumstances. Like in this episode! Where Dogen was talking to him, and he was like, “well, I hate to bring this up, but I have thus far been shot, drowned, beaten up, and almost poisoned. By you. NOT TO BE A JERK ABOUT IT.” But his sort of cartoon-villain smirk at the end of the episode kind of wrecked that for me. It was telegraphing a bit, I think!
CARA: Why/how Dogen was keeping Smokey out of the temple, I’ve no clue. Is he somehow connected to the ash, which was supposed to do the job?
JILL: I interpreted that as part of the “job” that Jacob gave him, in exchange for letting his son live — he uses his ninja-skills to keep Smokey out.
Side note – is anybody else frustrated by the lack of questions being answered?
SALLY: All they keep doing is answering questions they present in the same damn episode! Which, I guess is better than the past when they didn’t answer anything for several weeks, if at all. But geez louise! They’re running out of time, when are we getting our answers?!
CARA: I am kind of frustrated. And my favorite episodes are definitely the ones in which there are big reveals. I’m also starting to lose faith that big questions will be answered, though I hope that I’m wrong to. At this point, I’m trying to just go with it and be along for the ride, wherever it takes us.
LAUREN: This was a really packed episode, and I do think there were some things revealed, though I do think the writers are going to be more vague about some of our specific questions. A couple of things: We know now that Jacob and Smokey both are using methods from Satan’s playbook (“I can give you anything you want as long as you have faith/sacrifice everything for me”); we know that the war isn’t coming, it’s on; and the big reveal is about the pocket universe, where every characters’ major flaws are either cured or confirmed based on which side they took on the island, assuming that Jack is on the “good” side and Sayid is on the “bad.” However I don’t know where this leaves Kate and Claire. Any ideas?
CARA: Very interesting theory, Lauren. As I said above, I was really hoping that Sayid was going to be happy in one universe. That he’s not is very sad. But at the same time — in addition to noting that Claire’s life didn’t seem any worse than it was before — I think that Sayid was telling the truth when he said that he was a good man. I was surprised to hear him say it, after how much remorse he experienced last season and how much time he spent beating himself up, but I’ve always believed that about Sayid. I think that Sayid has always been a victim of his circumstances. And I think that he really does dedicate himself to non-violence, and while sometimes, yes, he just messes up, he also keeps finding himself placed in impossible situations. He turned down his brother’s request. He listened to Nadia when she told him to not start on the path of more violence. He was kidnapped. And they’d already nearly killed his brother, and who knows what they were going to do to him. I don’t think he killed Keamy because it was fun. (Though it was fun for me.) I think he killed Keamy because he didn’t believe that the people he loves most would be safe if he didn’t. And if that’s not an impossible situation, I don’t know what is. Indeed, Sayid’s biggest strength is his loyalty. I’m not convinced that him doing what he did is evidence of a flaw.
LAUREN: Oh, I wouldn’t say he was kidnapped, I’d say it was more like, “Oh, so you would like me to go with you? ORLY? ORLY??” Sayid keeps finding himself in violent situations, but you can’t discount the relish he takes in the complete pwnage of bad guys.
CARA: They threatened his nieces and nephews! I don’t think “get in the van, or we’ll go pick up the kids together” is much of a choice. Of course he’s loves pwning the baddies — he’s great at it. But they keep starting it.
It seems Flocke is now officially in control. He’s recruited most of the Others by saying he can get them off the island and he’s killed the rest. Claire & Sayid are his lackeys. How is Kate going to get away from them? What’s Ilana’s plan? Where the hell is everybody else?
CARA: I would very much like to know where Sawyer and Jin are. Are they tied up somewhere and being held captive by Flocke and Claire? Are they chilling, like “hey, hanging out, waiting around for the scary folks who have about a 50/50 shot of killing us to come back”? I want to know! Also, where the Others who were on the beach with Ilana and co. went. They were supposedly on their way to the temple, and we saw Richard out in the jungle with Sawyer. But somehow Ilana et al made it there first, despite a several mile long detour to hold a funeral. What gives?
SALLY: Yeah, I can’t help but wonder if who’s not there is more significant than who is – Richard and Jin especially. Or maybe that’s just because I want more info on Richard and I’m trying to figure out if Jin is the Kwon on the list.
LAUREN: I don’t know, but the final scene of Flocke was so Apocalypse Now. The horror, the horror. Only ten episodes left, people.
I took the no-talking thing as a guideline more than a hard and fast rule. As for why FLocke didn’t die, I have a nasty suspicion that the dead person whose form Smokey takes has to be someone who means something to you. In Sayid’s case that would be Nadia. The only way to kill Smokey is to reject his offering, so Sayid will have to kill her when she appears. That would be in line with theology and themes they draw on.
I don’t think the knife was magical with a “don’t let him say anything before you use it!” rule at all. I think it was just a random knife Dogen used to get him out of the way. (There’s probably a good chance I’m wrong as..I don’t know why Dogen would even keep a knife like that around unless it was actually important, but I’m on Team Smokey and for now I’ll agree with Flocke that the knife was just them trying to get rid of him!)
Am I the only one who thought Sayid was going to stab Kate before she had a chance to say anything when they popped into each other? I actually shouted out. Lost is making me very paranoid indeed. (I also shouted out when Smokey was let in and Miles was all alone, and when Ben offered to go get evil Sayid.)
The last 10 or so minutes of the episode was downright amazing for me. The montage was so creepy and wonderful, I loved it. Especially that look Flocke gave Kate, like he didn’t expect to see her there. I wonder if that will turn out to be anything important?
I third thinking that the no speaking rule was more of a guideline and that Dogen clearly wanted Sayid out of the temple and possibly dead. Could anything kill Flocke? Prob. not.
And OMG I HATE HATE HATE “I can’t be with you because I don’t deserve you.” Oh, I’m sorry – I can’t make my own decision about who I want to be with? That’s some self-hatin’ BS right there, Sayid. Good thing you redeemed yourself by shooting Keamy right in the breast of his hideous suit.
I was also underwhelmed by Jin being in the fridgidare.
Well, I don’t think it was the knife itself that had anything to do with it. But it seemed pretty clear that Flocke talking is what made Sayid unable to kill him. I thought at first maybe Dogen was just lying but when Sayid came back, Dogen didn’t seem very surprised and he actually said “you let him speak” or whatever it was. That made me think that maybe he actually hadn’t been lying and there really is something to that.
And I think Flocke just looked at Kate like that because he assumed he had killed everyone in the temple but Claire and Sayid. I might be wrong though.
I can’t decide if it is meaningful that what Sayid said to Locke could have meant either Nadia or Shannon… or both, in a way. The Sayid/Nadia story is a lot more compelling than Sayid/Shannon, but I’m still irritated at the way that the Epic OTP Story pushes Shannon to the sidelines.
Anyway. I’m on Team Ben! He seems to have been abandoned by both sides now that he’s served their purpose so he’s one of the few independent agents, perhaps even moreso now that he’s split off from the rest of the Beach Team. I have favorite characters on all sides, so I’m not invested in any particular group any more, but I loathe Jacob and his smug ass.
I also wonder if people would be as irritated at the lack of answers if it weren’t for the damn promos, which aren’t in the control of the people who actually make the show. We keep getting HERE BE ANSWERS shoved down our thraots, and then the episode feels like a let down. I’ve decided to just enjoy the ride and all the speculation and to reserve judgement for after the finale. When I will weigh Lost on my handy mystical scale of good and evil.
Also on Team Ben, I loved him when he was all “evil” and scheming. However now he seems a bit too much of a lapdog, I’m hoping that’s because he has another plan that will fuck shit up rather than cowed to within an inch of his life.
Otherwise i loved this episode especially all the Sayid man candy scenes and finally some decent action.
Loving these Thursday round-tables. I too think Sayid deserves at least one happy time zone… And I am not so keen on all the physical fighting scenes for his character — seems to play up the whole “Iraqi torturer” stereotype too much. Soooo with you on Dogun driving his kid drunk – yet again another POC character displayed negatively… But, I too am so team evil — more specifically, team smokey — as noted in my post here on smokey goodness: http://tiny.cc/30esy
I actually believe Smokey’s explanation that Dogen knew Sayid couldn’t kill him, and sent him to his death. The whole ‘before he speaks’ thing was just meaning ‘before he uses the power of rhetoric to convince you to be on his side’. I was sad to see Sayid go to the dark side. All we need now is an epic, fiery lightsaber battle with Jack, and he’ll officially be Darth Vader. I am still leaning towards Smokey being evil. He has killed an awful lot of people for one of the good guys, anyway. Jacob may manipulate people for his own gains, but I don’t think we’ve seen him actually murder anyone before, have we? Also, I still see ‘Team Evil’ as Sayid and Claire. I don’t think Sawyer is fully on the team yet, nor is Jin. Kate definitely isn’t, although that look he gave her at the end must mean something. And am I the only one who thought it was odd that Smokey offered Claire back Aaron, Sayid back Nadia, but didn’t offer to give Juliet back to Sawyer? Why is Sawyer’s ‘reward’ getting off the island? What has he offered Jin? I can’t wait until next week! Oh, and as far as teams go, I’m on whichever one Jack isn’t.
Astraea, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be as annoyed if not for those damn promos. I mean, did the people who make those just decide to be assholes this season? Promos usually had the right balance of information and teasing, but this season they’ve all shown obscure clips, little to no dialogue, and the “questions will be answered” thing. The one for Sundown was the worst one yet, though the one for next week isn’t much better.
Holly, that’s an interesting point regarding what Flocke offers them. I think in general the difference between Sayid/Claire and Sawyer is that they both seem to be infected. Perhaps that makes them more gullible or ready to believe the Smokey can do anything for them. Sawyer is still Sawyer, just a grieving, desperate Sawyer. He probably wouldn’t believe that he could get Juliet back, he’s moved on. So perhaps that’s why he had to offer him something more feasible.
Yes, the promos have been killing me. I see no reason why they should just lie. I’m sure they think it’s attracting viewers, but it’s probably causing them to lose the ones that aren’t as die-hard, because they’re going to just stop believing them, even if they are eventually telling the truth.
re: Nadia vs. Shannon, I’m pretty sure that Sayid was referring to Nadia, though it indeed was ambiguous. (Sayid has quite a bad history with love.) I’ve always found the Sayid/Shannon storyline a little bit unbelievable. I think that he did in fact love her, but I also think that even if he meant it at that particular moment, he was full of shit when he told her that he would never leave her. I mean, come on, they get off the island with Shannon still alive, what was Sayid going to do? Unless they were there in a relationship for years first, I’m pretty sure he would have gone to find Nadia. I think it’s clear that even though he loved Shannon, Nadia was “the love of his life” and all that jazz.
Or the same story, except it’s your sister dying of cancer. (Remember Juliet’s back story?)
I’m not personally convinced that the depiction of Sayid and Claire as being “on the evil team” is genuine – there’s already too much evidence of nuance. But as others have noted, there’s an element of “coolness” to “Team Evil”, and I expect the writers and producers are having some fun with it.
I am again drawn to the “Lost Supper” pictures with Sayid in the position of Judas and Claire changing sides between the two pictures – Locke’s not seated there because his present incarnation is “good”, but it remains reasonable to infer that there will be a betrayal of “Flocke” by Sayid and a change of sides by Claire.
Do you think Sayid was convinced by words alone, or by being shown proof of the parallel timeline. Could Jacob’s motivation in having Jack destroy the mirrors in the lighthouse have been to try to keep the people on the island in the dark about the double timeline? As others have noted, it made no sense to show Jack’s childhood home in the “on the Island” timeline… but it remained relevant to the sideways timeline. Perhaps Sayid was shown the parallel world and told that he could move sideways into a world where the Island was no longer real and in which the love of his life remained alive. That knowledge would certainly make it easier to act amorally on the island, “knowing” that everything you do would be erased when the timelines merge.
I’m not thrilled with the idea of the story ending with either of the two realities depicted on the show becoming “the single, final reality”, although I would like to see them reconciled.
I’m not sure I actually believe it, but it’s a brilliant theory nonetheless, and I love it.
“Jacob may manipulate people for his own gains, but I don’t think we’ve seen him actually murder anyone before, have we? ”
We don’t for sure know who ordered the Dharma genocide, but I think it’s pretty strongly suggested that Jacob did, since Richard was handing out the orders (IIRC) and he’s unambiguously Team Jacob. It may be indirect, but I wouldn’t make a moral distinction between that and Smokey’s killing at the Temple.
So far for me the best outcome is if the Losties (and associated lovable characters) say Screw You to Jacob AND Flocke with a more grown up, mature version of Jack’s temper tantrum.
First off. . . I got super excited when I saw Kevin Durand’s name in the credits. OMG! Keamy’s gonna be in this episode. Sure Keamy scared the shiz outta me, but I really liked him for some reason. I was secrectly hoping he’d join the the losties before he died on the island. But he’s bad no matter what so. . . oh well.
I was super stoked to hear from Miles. I find his character fascinating and under used. But at the same time I love that he’s always in the peripheral observing. I just wish I found out more often what is going on in his head. Anyone else here is it just me.
I’m really really actually enjoying the flash sideways’. Seeing how all these lives will intersect is keeping me glued and seeing the characters in a new light is fascinating.
I’m still leaning toward Jacob over Flocke. And wondering if they have something to do w/the origin of the flash sideways universe. And that it has something to do w/come the end which side each fell on and that having something to do w/their sideways fates. Just a thought. . .
I also still don’t believe Flocke/Smokey’s teams is better. To say he’s appealing to their logic by questioning a “magical island” is silly. When he was talking to Sawyer in the cave and was talking about how Jacob says the island needs a protector and that’s why the list. He said that was silly b/c it’s just an island. It’s quite obviously NOT just an island. Smoke monsters, time travel, polar bears, man who doesn’t age. . . Whether you call it magic or whatever. It’s not just an island! So appealing to logic and the rational is just silly to me.
“We don’t for sure know who ordered the Dharma genocide, but I think it’s pretty strongly suggested that Jacob did”
I should go back and rewatch, because I wasn’t ever sure about this. I thought that it was Ben, not Richard, who organized the Dharma-cide, and it was made very clear that Ben was just doing his own thing and couldn’t even see Jacob. If you’re right though, that would definitely make Jacob just as bad as Smokey.
I have to agree that the best outcome would be all the Losties telling Jacob and Smokey to frak off, and focusing on going home. I’m not sure I can see an ending like that happening though – I just don’t see any of them getting off the island. On the other hand, we know that somebody is coming according to Jacob, so maybe that will be the way out.
I’ve expressed before that I’m sympathetic to the Purge, even as I don’t condone it — again, Dharma invaded the island, they were colonizers, they given plenty of opportunities to leave — but I was under the impression that Jacob ordered it, too. Richard seemed to be in charge, not Ben. I always read that as the moment at which Ben joined the Others, as before that he had still been living with Dharma. And when Ben joined the Others, he was not their leader, Widmore still was.
It was interesting that Sayid appears to have encountered Kelvin Inman in both time lines, as it was Inman who turned Sayid into a torturer.
Dharma appears to have been financed by Charles Widmore. (Are there any other billionaire industrialists who remain suspects, let alone any who are obsessed with the island and know how to locate it for purposes such as air-dropping food and supplies?) So perhaps Dharma vs. The Others is more of a civil war than resistance against colonization.
But Dharma was on the Island at the same time that Charles Widmore was a member of the Others. Why would Widmore order the Others to resist Dharma if he was in charge of both? In any case, the Dharma Initiative is funded by Hanso. There’s no indication yet that there’s a connection between Widmore and Hanso, that I’m aware of.
More info about the Hanso Foundation and Alavar Hanso here.
I should go back and rewatch, because I wasn’t ever sure about this. I thought that it was Ben, not Richard, who organized the Dharma-cide
I think that given what we know, we’re meant to believe that Richard led the Dharma-cide. This goes back to when Ben first meets Richard and tells him that he wants to join them. Richard insists that he will, but that he will need to be patient. Ben also tells Locke that he was one of the people who made sure he didn’t end up purged, which to me implied that he wasn’t in charge, he just helped.
Ben did lead the efforts in rounding up Dharma folks that were unhappy and would join the Others afterwards, but it seems like at that point Ben is trying to become the leader and working with Richard to make that happen.
Also, I don’t see why Richard would take orders from Ben (who was not even their leader) and have the Others do the same.
I just have to recommend the antidote to bad ABC Lost promos. Fanvids and fan-made promos from Sophie. That one almost had me in tears.
And re: the purge – I was a lot more sympathetic to the purge pre-Season 6. Now I’m not sure where I stand. And I was under the impression that that was kind of a test for Ben, a condition for him joining the Others, even though now we know he’d already been changed by the magic hot tub.
This was an awesome fucking episode. It broke my heart a little, though.
As a general sidenote – I’d like to say that I feel bad for Kate. I understand why Claire is mad, but really, what choice did Kate have in regards to the baby? Run around the creepy jungle with him in tow, looking for vanished for Claire? She didn’t even know if Claire was dead or alive. Most people, when placed in that situation, would do exactly what Kate did, even though it sucks and it is wrong. It was a lose-lose situation, and I’d hate to see Kate get punished for it.
I think we should call it Team Smokin’. As in Smokin’ Hot. Because everyone on that team is.
I’m annoyed at how incompetent Island Kate is. She’s a con artist, are you telling me she can’t read a room to see that Claire is unhinged? Wouldn’t it have been a lot better to say: “I rescued Aaron!” rather than “I took Aaron.”
I agree about Kate’s incompetence. She also made it seem as if she just left Aaron at home to fend for himself at age three. Wouldn’t it have been good to say “I found your mother, the baby’s with him, he’s happy, healthy, safe”????
But aside from that, it’s true that Kate isn’t wrong in having raised Aaron and if Claire really does attack her for that (which I think she probably will), then that’d just be a shame.
Sady, where can I find the “Don’t Stop Believing (Smokey is Good Remix)” ?
I’m hoping Kate can save Claire, as she’s promised to bring her back to Aaron, and that promise is going to mess up Smokey’s hold on her.
The way the writers use Kate annoys me to no end and I could rant about it for hours if I got started. Random abilities that make her annoying! Random fail that makes her annoying! Bad dialogue!
ARGH.