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8 Responses

  1. Bitter Scribe
    Bitter Scribe April 30, 2010 at 6:56 pm |

    I think this comparison is unnecessarily harsh on the British. Sure, they did bad things in Palestine, but on the whole they tried to deal fairly with the shit sandwich that history handed them when they broke up the Ottoman Empire in WWI. They genuinely tried to satisfy both sides, and were as a result universally reviled. Comparing them to genocidal dictators is just not appropriate, IMO.

  2. Eurosabra
    Eurosabra April 30, 2010 at 7:17 pm |

    I lament the fact that there are very few s.t. (Sephardi Tahor, or “Pure Sephardi”) Israelis old enough to remember the Mandate period, and certainly none around to debunk the romanticization of Ottoman Palestine for its religious/national minorities in which Walker indulges. The early Mandate period preserved mixed aspects of civil society on the part of culturally-active citizens while forming a framework other than the 1517-1847 (at least in Jerusalem) formal subordination of non-Muslims under Ottoman law. Walker seems to be making the point that the issue is Balfour and Zionism in exactly the same terms as the Euro Left critique of Zionism, but within Israel very few socio-political actors are capable of re-creating any aspects of the functional Ottoman civil society, and Zionist parties and the Israeli Islamic Movement have no interest in it. (A fortiori the Palestinian nationalist parties and Hamas/Palestinian Islamic Jihad.)

    One might fast-forward to the most recent Israelis and Palestinians with experience of a non-Occupation-dominated common life, but that entails reevaluating the experience of the Israeli Communist Party in the past and really marginal groups like Neve Shalom today.

  3. Ruchama
    Ruchama April 30, 2010 at 7:41 pm |

    Really interesting analysis. Thanks.

    This, though, is a bit more complicated than it seems: “Walker focuses on the British decision to encourage the relocation of Jews to Palestine…” The British didn’t really have just one position on the immigration of Jews to Palestine. There were some official documents where they said it was encouraged. Then there were also pretty strict quotas put on it, and there were many years when there were a lot more Jews who wanted to go to Palestine than the British would let in. (My grandfather was one of them.)

  4. flora poste
    flora poste May 2, 2010 at 12:36 am |

    “Who can conceive of a time, for example, when … Hutus and Tutsis mingled and intermarried?”
    How does 1994 sound? Hutus and Tutsis spoke the same language, worked together, married each other and went to the same schools and churches. At the time of the massacres, a lot of Hutus tried to buy protection for Tutsi spouses, friends and relatives by paying off their killers. It’s simplistic to portray them as tribes successfully set against each other by colonial powers, although that is part of the story.

  5. Julie
    Julie May 2, 2010 at 12:30 pm |

    Eurosabra, Ruchama, and flora poste – those are fair points. I realize that I (and Walker) did oversimplify a lot.

  6. Henry
    Henry May 4, 2010 at 2:41 am |

    Any claim the Ottoman empire was some paradise of rights for Jews even approaching the United States is bullshit. It was good and bad at times, depending on who you were and where you lived. Jews in the periphery of the empire suffered forced migrations (as did other minorities) (the Ottomans did not like non-Turks hanging out on their borderlands). Those involved in commerce in Istanbul flourished, so long as they recognized that they were a second class citizen and paid their extra Jew-taxes. Jewish girls were subject to random kidnappings by Turkish officers, and then returned to their families pregnant. I had ancestors who worked for the Sultan under penalty of not just their deaths but that of the Jewish community there, so think about that when you go to work in the morning in the USA where you can quit your job as you wish. I understand where the viewpoint that the Ottoman Empire was a paradise comes from – it is heavily marketed by the Turkish government – “we were so nice to you in 1492″ whenever there is a hint of Jewish support for recognizing the Armenian genocide, or whenever their current government cirticises Israel. (and yes they were good for saving us from the Christian Inquisition, but still facts are facts and the Ottoman Empire was no haven of co-existence).

    I really hate it when a self-described leftist goes off and writes a comparison book (at least implicit) between Rwanda and Israel. No one is splitting 100,000s of people open with machetes in Palestine or Israel, not even Hamas. The title of the book alone is chilling – putting a genocide in Rwanda up next to a civil war which has been ongoing for 100 years and where the parties are both actively trying to achieve peace.

  7. The Chemist
    The Chemist May 5, 2010 at 11:09 am |

    “I really hate it when a self-described leftist goes off and writes a comparison book (at least implicit) between Rwanda and Israel. No one is splitting 100,000s of people open with machetes in Palestine or Israel,”

    Yeah, they do that with napalm and white phos.

  8. ecarden
    ecarden May 5, 2010 at 4:34 pm |

    @The Chemist

    I understand your point, but I think that Henry was referencing the numbers, not the (or at least, more than the methods). The numbers I’ve seen come out to much less than a hundred thousand over sixty plus years.

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