Author: has written 5285 posts for this blog.

Jill has been blogging for Feministe since 2005.
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93 Responses

  1. Comrade Kevin
    Comrade Kevin October 20, 2010 at 9:22 am |

    Heh.

    It’s apparently quite difficult to date here in DC as well, at least from the perspective of the multiple straight women I have talked with since I moved here. Many men seem to consider their Blackberries a kind of replacement umbilical chord, have no personality aside from their job, are gay, or are totally unsavory characters.

    That and there are far more single women than single men.

  2. karak
    karak October 20, 2010 at 9:32 am |

    9_9 canceling a date is what causes serial killers? Really? If a man is likely to go ballistic and lock me a closet and leave my corpse buried in an undisclosed location because I canceled a date… then I might just not want to take men. Because, you know, the threat of constant violence isn’t really a turn-on.

    And if someone is going to kill me because I canceled a date, imagine what he’ll do if I tell him I don’t like him and never want to talk to him again.

  3. groggette
    groggette October 20, 2010 at 9:41 am |

    but I would still be doing better, you see, by living out the rest of my days alone than by dating you.

    Who knew there would be one thing in there I actually agree with? He just forgot the part where he’s doing her a favor too.

  4. groggette
    groggette October 20, 2010 at 9:42 am |

    karak: And if someone is going to kill me because I canceled a date, imagine what he’ll do if I tell him I don’t like him and never want to talk to him again.  (Quote this comment?)

    Yep.

  5. Nahida
    Nahida October 20, 2010 at 9:42 am |

    LOL!! This was epically hilarious and definitely worth the wait!

  6. Kristen J.
    Kristen J. October 20, 2010 at 9:49 am |

    Ahem, blackberries are FAR more necessary than an umbilical cord at this point. Mine is an auxillary brain. Because of the google I can know anything that is available on the web and because of evernote I can remember everything important I think of whenever I think of it. Plus its an entertainment device….with books and music and TV and access to conversations with my friends. In short, I’m fairly certain my SO knows not to attempt to make me choose between him and my blackberry…it would be very hard on his ego.

  7. Tom Foolery
    Tom Foolery October 20, 2010 at 9:56 am |

    So, this dude is obviously a douche, but the specific behavior he described (endlessly rescheduling to avoid confrontation) is both real, and really annoying, when practiced by both men and women. Being straight-up rejected is preferable.

  8. norbizness
    norbizness October 20, 2010 at 10:00 am |

    I don’t like quizzes that try to trick you with the belief that yes = good points when in fact they are bad points.

  9. JutGory
    JutGory October 20, 2010 at 10:04 am |

    “Do you consider yourself a “nice guy” and find yourself wondering why chicks always date jerks?”

    “If you answered “yes” to all these questions, there may be hope of us getting along and even building a romantic relationship.”

    Huh?

    -Jut

  10. R. Dave
    R. Dave October 20, 2010 at 10:26 am |

    Do you sometimes write passive-aggressive lists on the internet about everything you hate in women?

    Are you currently on, or have you ever gone on, a narcissistic rant about how women are terrible in all of the following ways, so will the one who is not terrible please for the love of God date you already?

    Do you like to berate all of womankind on the internet?

    Do you let off steam by picking fights with all of womankind on the internet, or posting long lists of negative attributes that you clearly associate mostly with women?

    *Ahem*

  11. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable October 20, 2010 at 11:10 am |

    @Jut, my experience is that most people who complain that women only date jerks are jerks themselves. At the very simplest level, they generalized a behavior to all women that has no support – especially when the speaker decides for themselves who is and isn’t a jerk. (Spoiler, dudes who aren’t the speaker tend to be jerks).

    R. Dave, am I confusing you with a different candidate from Feministe’s top troll?

  12. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable October 20, 2010 at 11:17 am |

    Oh, I was! Sorry.

    That said, I just had a great laugh checking the archives for the entries. Today’s been a fun day so far. :)

  13. Nahida
    Nahida October 20, 2010 at 11:49 am |

    JutGory: “Do you consider yourself a “nice guy” and find yourself wondering why chicks always date jerks?”“If you answered “yes” to all these questions, there may be hope of us getting along and even building a romantic relationship.”Huh?-Jut  

    “Nice guys” don’t fall for “nice girls” because “nice girls” aren’t “pretty” to them. And so instead of seriously contemplating about their own personalities and preferences and the women whom they pursue, they complain about how “[all] girls” are never with “nice guys” and how “[all] girls” only ever use them–“nice guys”–for the “friend zone.”

    Unbelievably annoying after a while.

  14. Nahida
    Nahida October 20, 2010 at 11:57 am |

    The fact is, I’ve heard several guys state blatantly that they’re going to “give in” and become jerks because girls only like jerks. They think they’re “nice guys.” They were never nice guys–they were jerks already who just needed an excuse to be jerky.

  15. Linnaeus
    Linnaeus October 20, 2010 at 12:05 pm |

    So, this dude is obviously a douche, but the specific behavior he described (endlessly rescheduling to avoid confrontation) is both real, and really annoying, when practiced by both men and women. Being straight-up rejected is preferable.

    Definitely, though I will admit it took some experience and some growing up on my part to realize that.

    I’m willing to bet that all of us here have dealt with people (in my case, fairly recently) who didn’t communicate very well that they wanted to end the relationship and just figured that you’d “get the hint” through their actions because they didn’t have the courage to tell you. Some of us may even have acted like that at some point in our lives; I know that in my past I was conflict-averse to the point where it affected how I communicated.

    Of course, the difference between mature adults and people like Seavey is that adults don’t try to publicly embarrass their ex-partners (even if said ex-partner was not a very nice person) and, once the grieving process for a failed relationship/dating situation is over, continue on with their lives.

  16. Princess Rot
    Princess Rot October 20, 2010 at 12:31 pm |

    Has it occurred to Mr. Cleavy that a reason for doing this is that women are socially encouraged to make nice with white lies because there can be harmful reprecussions for directly refusing an entitled male, ranging from minor bitching to outright violence? And that he illustrates this perfectly with his childish demands and refusal to consider the possibility that his potential date is obfusticating for a reason other than being thoughtlessly evil? Surely a rational thinker such as himself would take the initiative and calling it off and moving on if he feels his time is being wasted, even if he’s annoyed? Anyone? Bueller?

  17. Fat Steve
    Fat Steve October 20, 2010 at 1:32 pm |

    I think the difference between these ‘nice guys’ and ‘jerks’ is that the jerks are aggressive and the ‘nice guys’ are passive-aggressive. Full disclosure: I met my wife 20 years ago i n college, so have never really ‘dated,’ however watching friends remain single over these years, I can definitely say that part of the problems are the sort of dating ‘rules’ which Jill so skillfully parodies in this post. I know so many men and women who have these unreasonable expectations and silly little things that they won’t bend about…especially when it comes to appearance.

  18. Hugo
    Hugo October 20, 2010 at 1:56 pm |

    I loved this. Well worth the wait for the visit to Mr. Seavy’s sad little place.

  19. Bitter Scribe
    Bitter Scribe October 20, 2010 at 2:57 pm |

    Jill–Priceless. Just hope you don’t get a call from Mr. Seavey.

  20. jeune fille
    jeune fille October 20, 2010 at 3:23 pm |

    I read the entire Seavey article (god help me), and found this gem:

    “zany free-spirited hippie-slut throbbin’ funkiness”

    How awesome does that sound?!?!

    (Minus the uber-judgmental term “slut”, of course…)

  21. Brian
    Brian October 20, 2010 at 4:15 pm |

    Women liking “jerks” and “nice guys finishing last” is such an establish archetype that all kinds of experiences, situations, people, whatever, get slotted into it. I definitely stated blatantly (at least to myself) that I was going to “give in” and “be a jerk”, and that was wildly successful for me, because my idea of “being nice” was to never reveal, under any circumstances, that I was attracted to anyone (no points for guessing why I had trouble getting dates), so that no one would ever have to be inconvenienced or bothered with unwanted interest. Now that I act like a jerk (i.e. straightforwardly ask people on dates), I’m far more successful (even if I still feel like a jerk).But I wasn’t quite the archetype discussed in feminist circles (although, who ever is?) and initially found all the assumptions about such guys confusing at first too.

    Anyone who’s gotten a lot of exposure to the archetype outside of an explicitly feminist discussion is likely to find the fairly narrow, standardised usage confusing.

  22. Ismone
    Ismone October 20, 2010 at 4:32 pm |

    While I understand the frustration with the whole not seeing someone again but saying that you will bit, it really is ignoring the fact that a lot of women are afraid to say no.

    Because bad shit happens when you do say no. I’ve actually started writing to men to say “no thanks” when they write me online expressing interest, because some have been like, hey, thanks, I appreciate the respect of a reply. Usually I throw in a compliment, too. But sure enough, after only four or five of those, my turn down earned me a rant. Nobody ever rants at me for just flat-out ignoring their message. And then I think, great, I’ve gotten the attention of someone with anger issues who knows what I look like and what city I live in. Fabulous.

  23. Laura C
    Laura C October 20, 2010 at 4:42 pm |

    On the saying no clearly thing, it’s also the case that I’ve several times had the experience of thinking I’d said no clearly and not having that recognized. Think Mr. Collins proposing to Elizabeth in Pride & Prejudice.

  24. Fat Steve
    Fat Steve October 20, 2010 at 4:50 pm |

    @Brian

    You seem to be discussing the difference between hiding and living, not the difference between being a nice guy and being a ‘jerk.’ Being a ‘nice guy’ is not the same thing as being afraid of women, quite the opposite. To be honest, both your past behavior, your present behavior and your above comments all have elements of ‘jerk’ about them.

  25. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable October 20, 2010 at 5:09 pm |

    Linnaeus: I’m willing to bet that all of us here have dealt with people (in my case, fairly recently) who didn’t communicate very well that they wanted to end the relationship and just figured that you’d “get the hint” through their actions because they didn’t have the courage to tell you.

    It’s actually worth noting that in some cultures, the norm is to be indirect (like by consistently postponing). In those same cultures, that person would think “Why is this person pestering me when I clearly don’t want to go out with him?” It’s not necessarily typical in the US, but it definitely happens elsewhere.

    As far as in the US, I think Ismone and Princess Rot hit it on the head.

  26. bellacoker
    bellacoker October 20, 2010 at 5:21 pm |

    Who, in the age of Internet anonymity, puts their real name on a personal ad?

  27. Brian
    Brian October 20, 2010 at 6:08 pm |

    @Fat Steve

    No, I’m talking about how real life behaviours are matched to archetypes. The short answer is “inconsistantly”. A “Nice Guy” is an archetype, with whatever variations exist within it (obviously no two real people are completely identical), and what does, or doesn’t, fall under that label varies by who’s using it.

    And it is behaviours, not internal motivations. Why I was (and still am, in a lot of ways) a Nice Guy may not be the reason(s) someone else dabbles in the same behaviour. Case in point, you want to match my behaviour to being “afraid of women” (obviously a common archetype), when I was just applying the common maxim “Treat others as you’d want to be treated” (and I certainly had no interest in being subject to the romantic/sexual interests of someone like me, so I assumed everyone else would feel the same way in absence of data to the contrary.)

    But what does, or doesn’t, make someone a genuine nice guy, or jerk, doesn’t really matter to what we mean by “Nice Guy”, or “Jerk”.

  28. Nahida
    Nahida October 20, 2010 at 6:37 pm |

    Brian–

    When I ranted (in real life–it’s gross [pun!] how many times this has happened) to one of the guys who told me he was about to “give in” he meekly replied, “Girls really do like jerks, though. I mean they don’t like jerks but they like certain qualities that come with being a jerk. Like the confidence and ambition and assertiveness.”

    This was his only reasonable statement. You should have seen the argument in context, and him asking why the hell girls who are abused don’t just leave. (Spoiler: he concluded they actually liked jerks.)

  29. Bagelsan
    Bagelsan October 20, 2010 at 7:23 pm |

    “Girls really do like jerks, though. I mean they don’t like jerks but they like certain qualities that come with being a jerk. Like the confidence and ambition and assertiveness.”

    Some girls like certain qualities that “come with” being, say, a dolphin too, though. Like swimming ability? Or qualities that “come with” being Hitler — like being a compelling public speaker, or getting along okay with (certain) children. Doesn’t mean guys should all start cultivating wee mustaches over their bottlenoses though.*

    More to the point, qualities like “confidence” exist independent of jerkishness. (Just like there are kid-loving swimmers who aren’t Nazi porpoises.) So why in the world do Nice Guys think they have to be jerks to be confident, etc?

    *I may or may not have used this somewhat tortured metaphor entirely in order to describe this image. :p

  30. Kristen J.
    Kristen J. October 20, 2010 at 8:00 pm |

    Nahida: When I ranted (in real life–it’s gross [pun!] how many times this has happened) to one of the guys who told me he was about to “give in” he meekly replied, “Girls really do like jerks, though. I mean they don’t like jerks but they like certain qualities that come with being a jerk. Like the confidence and ambition and assertiveness.”

    I have had this exact same experience more than once. I family member of mine said the women like jerks thing and so I in a fit of supposed inspiration I asked whether he thought my SO was a jerk…and to my complete surprise he said yes. Because apparently he equates being a jerk with (1) having opinions about his preferences, (2) asserting said opinions, and (3) acting on said opinion without seeking my “approval.” (i.e., I’m going to skip the movie night with your friends and go have a beer with X. Sometimes phrased in the form of a question…but generally intended as informational.) Subsequently, I’ve asked other dudes the same question and have gotten remarkably similar answers. I am continually shocked at the wrongness of what some men think nearly all women want. (Hint: Its not someone who does everything we tell them to so that we’ll like them.)

  31. Nahida
    Nahida October 20, 2010 at 8:07 pm |

    Bagelsan–

    Exactly. If only they would realize this. (Especially since I hate mustaches.) =P

  32. Fat Steve
    Fat Steve October 20, 2010 at 8:19 pm |

    Brian: @Fat SteveNo, I’m talking about how real life behaviours are matched to archetypes.The short answer is “inconsistantly”.A “Nice Guy” is an archetype, with whatever variations exist within it (obviously no two real people are completely identical), and what does, or doesn’t, fall under that label varies by who’s using it.And it is behaviours, not internal motivations.Why I was (and still am, in a lot of ways) a Nice Guy may not be the reason(s) someone else dabbles in the same behaviour.Case in point, you want to match my behaviour to being “afraid of women” (obviously a common archetype), when I was just applying the common maxim “Treat others as you’d want to be treated” (and I certainly had no interest in being subject to the romantic/sexual interests of someone like me, so I assumed everyone else would feel the same way in absence of data to the contrary.)But what does, or doesn’t, make someone a genuine nice guy, or jerk, doesn’t really matter to what we mean by “Nice Guy”, or “Jerk”.  

    Well, it certainly does if your definitions of ‘nice guy’ and ‘jerk’ are so piss poor. You are now describing ‘nice’ people as those with low self-esteem.

    What you also fail to take into account ‘nice guys’ and ‘nice women’ get taken advantage of by the ‘jerks.’ But just having a decent self esteem doesn’t make you a ‘jerk.’ Your entire premise is completely flawed, as is the concept, which is clearly why Jill so summarily dismissed it in the original post.

  33. Athenia
    Athenia October 20, 2010 at 8:37 pm |

    When/Where was/is dating ever easy?

  34. Jadey
    Jadey October 20, 2010 at 8:46 pm |

    Athenia: When/Where was/is dating ever easy?  

    If someone finds this out, send me a memo.

  35. LMF
    LMF October 20, 2010 at 10:32 pm |

    “my experience is that most people who complain that women only date jerks are jerks themselves. ”

    My experience has been the opposite. Whose experience wins?

  36. LMF
    LMF October 20, 2010 at 10:39 pm |

    “More to the point, qualities like “confidence” exist independent of jerkishness. ”

    Here’s the thing, though: when I constantly see women dating men with qualities A, B, and C who are a-holes, and those women could easily be dating men with A, B, and C who *aren’t* a-holes, it becomes quite clear that a-holeness is what she prioritizes.

  37. Brian
    Brian October 20, 2010 at 10:41 pm |

    I am continually shocked at the wrongness of what some men think nearly all women want.

    If you have enough feminism to think women can do whatever men can, but not enough to not think of women as the (sole) sex class, and combine it with the common transactional model of relationships, you should see a heterosexual relationship as an incredibly one-sided exchange, where women are providing men with something immensely valuable we can’t get any other way (i.e. sex), and generically getting nothing in return. (Or maybe sex+friendship for friendship, but there’s an enormous inequality there). In that paradigm, any man who isn’t trying to make up the difference in value gets labelled a jerk (although I think it should be impossible for him to actually make it up?).

    @Fat Steve – I think you’ve missed the entire point. I almost completely agree with Jill, except I think the ‘Nice Guy’ archetype is somewhat broader. The ‘Nice Guy’ archetype has nothing to do with niceness, except that he thinks he’s trying to be nice. And there’s no corresponding ‘Nice Woman’ or ‘Nice Gal’ archetype. (Though women can exhibit ‘Nice Guy’ behaviour, it’s somewhat rarer.)

  38. bellacoker
    bellacoker October 21, 2010 at 12:02 am |

    There are a lot of things that people do in relationships that they have learned from other relationships, so I try not to get upset when people have a few Nice Guy qualities. For example, if we are at a concert and I want to go read in the car, that might look a lot like someone who was not comfortable saying they are upset going off to pout. And if the guy has never been in a relationship like the relatioship I hope to have, how would he know?

    So, I don’t mind teaching him that I do what I say and say what I mean as often as possible and expect the same thing from him. I know that I didn’t learn how to have healthy relationships without the help and guidance of people who were further along than I was.

    That, of course, is not the case with Teavey. If a guy wants to shit in your hands and tell you it’s flowers, he’s not redeemable.

  39. Kristen J.
    Kristen J. October 21, 2010 at 1:02 am |

    Brian: If you have enough feminism to think women can do whatever men can, but not enough to not think of women as the (sole) sex class, and combine it with the common transactional model of relationships, you should see a heterosexual relationship as an incredibly one-sided exchange, where women are providing men with something immensely valuable we can’t get any other way (i.e. sex), and generically getting nothing in return.

    Ah, sexism…it shows up here in so many ways…Alas, people will continue to be assholes until they get “enough feminism” to treat woman (or men!) as whole and complete human beings.

  40. Kristen J.
    Kristen J. October 21, 2010 at 1:18 am |

    LMF: Here’s the thing, though: when I constantly see women dating men with qualities A, B, and C who are a-holes, and those women could easily be dating men with A, B, and C who *aren’t* a-holes, it becomes quite clear that a-holeness is what she prioritizes. LMF

    Assuming for the moment that you are not completely misreading the situation, maybe *she* prefers assholes. Maybe a not insignificant portion of the population prefer assholes. Since when did the actions of a few women reflect back onto all womankind?

  41. jennygadget
    jennygadget October 21, 2010 at 2:04 am |

    “and those women could easily be dating men with A, B, and C who *aren’t* a-holes”

    or, you know, it’s possible she has her own opinions on the matter and thinks both groups are assholes. and prefers the assholes that are up front about being assholes because then at least she knows what she’s dealing with.

    it’s even possible she disagrees with you (gasp!) and thinks the guys she dates aren’t jerks but the one’s you seem to think she should be dating are. or that she doesn’t really agree with your assessment that both groups have characteristics A, B, and C in equal amounts.

    it’s also possible that characteristics D, E, and F are more important to her than characteristics A, B, C, and jerkitude. i mean, i know, god forbid she value characteristics you don’t even bother to notice – or (gasp!) think of as not assets – but hey, it happens.

    If you are completely leaving out the viewpoint of the person who is dating the supposed jerk, then it’s not a matter of opposing viewpoints (yours versus other peoples), it’s simply an example of you presuming to speak for other people and then labeling your presumptions The Truth.

  42. Ens
    Ens October 21, 2010 at 2:41 am |

    My experience has been the opposite. Whose experience wins?

    Jill’s, considering that the subject of the post is who she would or would not consider dating, rendered in satirical fashion. Why on earth would you think your experience would win?

    And frankly, unless you’re a jerk and/or a woman, you don’t really have any real experience in the field of women dating jerks.

  43. Nahida
    Nahida October 21, 2010 at 3:55 am |

    If you have enough feminism to think women can do whatever men can, but not enough to not think of women as the (sole) sex class,

    An -ism including the belief that women are the sole sex class is not feminism. I believe it’s sexism.

    you should see a heterosexual relationship as an incredibly one-sided exchange, where women are providing men with something immensely valuable we can’t get any other way (i.e. sex), and generically getting nothing in return. (Or maybe sex+friendship for friendship, but there’s an enormous inequality there). In that paradigm, any man who isn’t trying to make up the difference in value gets labeled a jerk (although I think it should be impossible for him to actually make it up?).

    As (potentially) touching as this may be, the last portion is absurd. It’s not that great of a difference because women have sexual desires too, and besides that, men have plenty to offer! Sometimes a man who isn’t “trying to make up” this supposed “difference” at face value isn’t trying at all not because he’s decided he’s not good enough for his significant other and there’s nothing he can possibly do but because he’s decided that he’s too good, and she doesn’t deserve his efforts or consideration. That’s why he’s a jerk.

    It also implies a relationship revolves around sex. I’m a virgin until marriage, (everyone can shut up about how they feel about this because I don’t care–if you were about to say something you’re as bad as the people who try to force the reverse) and somehow I still managed to date a man who pampers me to death. What happens when sex is taken out of the equation? What’s he trying to “make up” for?

    Could it possibly be that (gasp!) he’s just an awesome person?!

  44. Brian
    Brian October 21, 2010 at 6:37 am |

    An -ism including the belief that women are the sole sex class is not feminism. I believe it’s sexism.

    If I had a dollar for everyone who truly holds zero sexist beliefs, I wouldn’t be able to buy a cup of coffee.

    Beyond that, the truth of a belief is irrelevant to how it influences behaviour. Trying to argue that ‘Nice Guys’ shouldn’t believe that doesn’t address whether or not they do believe that.

  45. He Probably Drunk-Dails at 7AM, Too : Lawyers, Guns & Money

    […] for the background on Seavey, I would have thought it was beyond effective parody, but Jill has proven me wrong. Share and […]

  46. groggette
    groggette October 21, 2010 at 10:49 am |

    I may or may not have used this somewhat tortured metaphor entirely in order to describe this image.

    Have I told you lately that I love you?

  47. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable October 21, 2010 at 11:22 am |

    Brian: If you have enough feminism to think women can do whatever men can, but not enough to not think of women as the (sole) sex class, and combine it with the common transactional model of relationships, you should see a heterosexual relationship as an incredibly one-sided exchange, where women are providing men with something immensely valuable we can’t get any other way (i.e. sex), and generically getting nothing in return.

    Am I the only one who dates guys for the sex? I mean, the friend part is fun too I guess, but I have friends. Not all of them will fuck me, though, because some of them have weird hangups about not being attracted to me.

  48. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable October 21, 2010 at 11:25 am |

    Kristen J.: Assuming for the moment that you are not completely misreading the situation, maybe *she* prefers assholes. Maybe a not insignificant portion of the population prefer assholes. Since when did the actions of a few women reflect back onto all womankind?  

    Kristen, you’re clearly NOT a woman if guys making that claim aren’t attracted to you. Did you think you got to determine your gender? Psht.

  49. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable October 21, 2010 at 11:31 am |

    LMF: My experience has been the opposite. Whose experience wins? 

    Mine! Every time. I am very, very smart.

    Also, you know who doesn’t complain about women being attracted to jerks? All of my awesome straight dude friends, with and without girlfriends, who have better shit to do with their time than to blame their dating woes on someone else.

    You know who has trouble finding an adequate partner when they’re single? Fucking everyone. Dating isn’t easy. It turns out that lots and lots of pairs of individuals are incompatible, and that’s life.

  50. Bagelsan
    Bagelsan October 21, 2010 at 11:49 am |

    Have I told you lately that I love you? groggette

    groggette, if you’re not a jerk I’ll have none of you. As a woman, that quality is apparently my highest priority. :)

  51. groggette
    groggette October 21, 2010 at 12:44 pm |

    If I cyber smack you on the ass does that prove my jerkiness?

    But I think this conversation isn’t even actually happening since we’re both women and we all know that female same sex attraction doesn’t exist. Unless it’s for men. Or they are women who don’t desire to sleep with the Nice Guy (where lesbianism obviously is a valid excuse but also obviously not the only one).
    Also, Nazi porpoises.

  52. groggette
    groggette October 21, 2010 at 12:47 pm |

    PrettyAmiable: Am I the only one who dates guys for the sex? I mean, the friend part is fun too I guess, but I have friends. Not all of them will fuck me, though, because some of them have weird hangups about not being attracted to me.  (Quote this comment?)

    I have friends with this same hang up. What is the deal with that?

  53. Partial Human
    Partial Human October 21, 2010 at 1:11 pm |

    @LMF “Here’s the thing, though: when I constantly see women dating men with qualities A, B, and C who are a-holes, and those women could easily be dating men with A, B, and C who *aren’t* a-holes, it becomes quite clear that a-holeness is what she prioritizes. “

    Ah yes, I see. You’re using ‘asshole’ to mean “Someone who can get a date”. I believe it’s from the Nice Guy Dictionary.

    See also:

    Bitch – woman who won’t date you.
    Slut – woman who has sex, but not with you.
    Woman – passive blowjob/sandwich machine.

  54. JutGory
    JutGory October 21, 2010 at 1:56 pm |

    To PrettyAmiable (and others),
    The two statements I quoted baffled me.

    Jill said: Do you consider yourself a “nice guy” and find yourself wondering why chicks always date jerks?

    Then, she said: If you answered “yes” to all these questions, there may be hope of us getting along and even building a romantic relationship.

    So, it sounds like she is interested in “nice guys.”

    Or, did I miss something? I didnot intend the “nice guy” derail.

    -Jut

  55. JutGory
    JutGory October 21, 2010 at 2:05 pm |

    Jill,
    Darn it! I guess I did not pass the test. (And I was sooo close.)
    :P
    -Jut

  56. Travis
    Travis October 21, 2010 at 2:55 pm |

    In my own analysis of the Jerk/Nice Guy thing (based mostly on my experience as a Nice Guy, and some definitions I made up), it always seemed to me that they were two sides of the same coin:

    The Jerk is an objectifier of women: he perceives women as conquests and prizes, and his goal is to manipulate them into sex or (even more horrifying, perhaps) long term relationships which he will use to feed his poorly-understood emotional needs through, trickery, deceit, and possibly The Game

    The Nice Guy, on the other hand, is an objectifier of women: he perceives women as delicate and beautiful Goddesses, symbols of love and nurturing, and his goal is to manipulate them into sex or (even more horrifying, perhaps) long term relationships which he will use to feed his poorly-understood emotional needs through, trickery, deceit, and possibly taking some Women’s Literature courses at University.

    Really, it comes back to what we know: you can’t go wrong treating people like people. Approaching every person you meet as not only a human being, but also a creation unique to the ENTIRE UNIVERSE is both a wise and (in it’s own way) spiritually humbling practice.

    And you also can’t go wrong with realizing that you’re wrong. One of the hardest things for a human to do is ignore patterns (the human mind is the best and worst pattern recognition device we know of. See: optical illusions).
    There’s a difference between recognizing warning signs (a vital skill for avoiding abusers, scammers, and vampires), and assuming everything you think is correct if you can come up with >0 data points. You have to keep your (very, VERY) human desire to categorize stuff in check when it comes to people, because people are just too complicated for simple equations like “Hot + Not Into Me + Occasionally Unhappy With Relationship = Loves Jerks”

  57. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable October 21, 2010 at 3:23 pm |

    groggette: I have friends with this same hang up. What is the deal with that?  

    Maybe they’re capital-W Women-dudes who only like Jerks. And we’re Nice Guy-girls (TM).

    I GET IT NOW.

  58. RD
    RD October 21, 2010 at 3:51 pm |

    PrettyAmiable: Am I the only one who dates guys for the sex? I mean, the friend part is fun too I guess, but I have friends. Not all of them will fuck me, though, because some of them have weird hangups about not being attracted to me.  (Quote this comment?)

    LOL.
    Sex and love! (But, in my case, women).

  59. RD
    RD October 21, 2010 at 3:55 pm |

    Jill: Jut, you missed the part where the whole post was satirical, and every characteristic I actually listed is pretty terrible. I was parodying the linked personal ad.  (Quote this comment?)

    Even tho I totally got that, I still felt my hackles rising a few times reading your list (and nausea-anger), because too many people say some of those things…pretty much exactly…and completely, totally mean them. Men and women. And I had to remind myself what I was reading again.

  60. Linnaeus
    Linnaeus October 21, 2010 at 6:08 pm |

    PrettyAmiable:
    It’s actually worth noting that in some cultures, the norm is to be indirect (like by consistently postponing). In those same cultures, that person would think “Why is this person pestering me when I clearly don’t want to go out with him?” It’s not necessarily typical in the US, but it definitely happens elsewhere.

    I realize the thread is probably dead by now, but I wanted to say very quickly that this is a good point. Obviously, my view of what constitutes clear communication has been shaped by the cultural milieu in which I grew up.

  61. Ismone
    Ismone October 21, 2010 at 6:27 pm |

    I am now curious to know whether any guy I know thinks I date jerks.

    I did once have the experience of not dating a friend (who I think really wanted me to be his girlfriend and boss him around, which is not my thing) and then getting involved with a charmer who I thought was a good guy, and it turned out that *he was cheating on his girlfriend with me.*

    My “friend” said “well, it’s a shame you didn’t date me.” I think I told him he was being an asshole. I didn’t set out to date the other guy because he was a jerk, but my jerkmeter isn’t perfectly calibrated. I didn’t dislike my friend as a dating partner because he was “nice” it was because he had *no spine.* Also, he wasn’t as attractive as the guy who ended up being a jerk.

  62. Landru
    Landru October 22, 2010 at 6:45 am |

    Woman – passive blowjob/sandwich machine

    Wait…no? I have totally got to change dictionaries. Mine also said:

    Lesbian – Any woman who hasn’t had sex with me.

  63. Bagelsan
    Bagelsan October 22, 2010 at 12:37 pm |

    But I think this conversation isn’t even actually happening since we’re both women and we all know that female same sex attraction doesn’t exist.

    Oh, it goes further than that! We’re both women, having a conversation online that isn’t even happening, but there are also no women on the internet so we don’t even exist! *brainsplode*

  64. blondie
    blondie October 22, 2010 at 3:02 pm |

    It’s dealing with jerks like you that inspires serial killers and misanthropes, you know. Can you really blame them?

    Poor Ted Bundy was just mistreated and misunderstood.

  65. Chris
    Chris October 22, 2010 at 7:30 pm |

    This post and comment thread (in general) are pure gold.

    I’m scared by people who can only identify whether or not you’re a “nice guy” by a proxy like timidity versus assertiveness. Like, does that mean they’re totally unaware of the behaviors that actually do or don’t make you a genuinely nice person? Because that sounds to me like the person in question is already a psychopath, no encouragement needed.

  66. Tec
    Tec October 22, 2010 at 10:28 pm |

    LMF: “More to the point, qualities like “confidence” exist independent of jerkishness. ”Here’s the thing, though: when I constantly see women dating men with qualities A, B, and C who are a-holes, and those women could easily be dating men with A, B, and C who *aren’t* a-holes, it becomes quite clear that a-holeness is what she prioritizes.  (Quote this comment?)

    And how exactly do you define guys who aren’t assholes? In other words, when a guy who ISN’T you but gets a “hot” (i.e. narrowly defined stereotypical iron maiden) girl then he must be a jerk, but you, being an incredibly objective observer of yourself, are a “nice” guy because you do feign niceness to said “hot” girl (while keeping a secret score of all those acts so that you can try to trade ‘em in cos all women of course are whores who trade sex for greedy profit), are a “nice” guy.

    Or maybe, you know, you’re not an objective observer and really a “jerk” yourself but instead of actually questioning yourself and beliefs (hey that takes work!) fall back on a widely-used (and proven wrong) stereotype.

  67. Tec
    Tec October 22, 2010 at 10:55 pm |

    jennygadget:
    If you are completely leaving out the viewpoint of the person who is dating the supposed jerk, then it’s not a matter of opposing viewpoints (yours versus other peoples), it’s simply an example of you presuming to speak for other people and then labeling your presumptions The Truth.  (Quote this comment?)

    Good point. When a “nice” guy says “girls only like to date jerks”, he’s making a lot of assumptions about said girl’s own preferences and choices, namely that his opinion and judgements are somehow better and sounder simply because… well that’s the thing – there is no because. She’s an adult, and the said “nice” guy’s views aren’t more important than her views or even really relevant when talking about her romantic and sexual relationships.

    What’s it to you, nice guy, if a girl likes to date (your definition) of jerks? IT’S HER LIFE! IT”S HER CHOICE! Usually the reason for the whole “nice” guy mantra of “girls like jerks” goes back to simply he’s not getting sex – but guess what? If EVERY woman (meaning by “women” that small subset of the female population you consider “good enough” for you who undoubtedly are not fat, non-white, “old” and/or disabled) doesn’t want you, then it’s YOU. Not her. Not the next woman after her. Not every woman you’ve ever met. Not every woman you haven’t met. You.

  68. Emily
    Emily October 23, 2010 at 2:23 am |

    Chris: This post and comment thread (in general) are pure gold.I’m scared by people who can only identify whether or not you’re a “nice guy” by a proxy like timidity versus assertiveness. Like, does that mean they’re totally unaware of the behaviors that actually do or don’t make you a genuinely nice person? Because that sounds to me like the person in question is already a psychopath, no encouragement needed.  

    The “nice guys” we’re talking about are NOT genuinely nice people who are also guys, we’re referring to the subset of males known in internet lingo as Nice Guys (TM). They’re the kind of guys who, when attracted to a girl, will bend over backwards for her and not make any moves that indicate interest. The girl in question then a) realizes that his being “nice” is all about getting in her pants, most likely because he isn’t so nice to her less pretty friends and/or b) isn’t attracted to him so doesn’t reciprocate the interest or show any of her own. The Nice Guy will then start whining “But I’m such a Nice Guy, I don’t objectify her by telling her that she looks hot when she’s wearing a miniskirt, so WHY won’t she sleep with me?!?!” and decide that the girl is really a “bitch”/lesbian/will only date Jerks. This Nice Guy usually has two fundamental problems with his view of women: He believes that women want nothing more than to be venerated and put on a pedestal and only want to have sex with men in exchange for emotional fulfillment from the man, and he also only defines “women” as “women that I find attractive” with a very narrow, stereotypically pretty definition of attractive. Incidentally, this also means that there are probably 10 Nice Guys for every woman that they deem dateable, which only makes them less likely to get a date in the first place.

    TL;DR: “nice guys” != any guy who’s nice. Travis (57) defines Nice Guy and those whom the Nice Guys refer to as Jerks (also != actual jerk) pretty well.

  69. dejah
    dejah October 26, 2010 at 3:09 pm |

    You know, 99% of the comments here are totally idiotic and bogus. Count me as one fairly hot girl (in my youth), who thought that 1) most girls dated jerks, and 2) made a point of dating only nice guys.

    And “nice” did not mean “spineless.” Nice usually meant that maybe he wasn’t the most physically attractive person in the world–tall, geeky, skinny, in my case, and often “goofy-looking” as my girlfriends put it–but he knew how to treat a girl. He listened when I talked. He treated me like a human being worthy of respect and consideration. He actually thought sex was SUPPOSED to be a MUTUALLY pleasurable act.

    My girlfriends often dated “hot” guys, who because they were hot felt they could treat the girls however they liked because if the girls walked, there was always another waiting in the wings… why? Because the guys were hot. They didn’t have to be intelligent, thoughtful, nice, or considerate… because they simply didn’t HAVE to.

    So yeah, girls date jerks, because they are too busy looking for the cheap thrill and too oblivious to the deep thrill of being with a guy who actually values you as a person.

  70. groggette
    groggette October 26, 2010 at 3:41 pm |

    I date men who I consider hot who value me as a person.

    Hot and genuinely nice (not Nice (TM)) are not mutually exclusive.

  71. Sheelzebub
    Sheelzebub October 26, 2010 at 3:52 pm |

    So yeah, girls date jerks, because they are too busy looking for the cheap thrill and too oblivious to the deep thrill of being with a guy who actually values you as a person.

    And of course, “Nice Guys” are never too busy looking for a hot woman or looking for the thrill of the chase–the unattainable, uninterested woman whom they can moon and pine over and then bitterly complain that women all like jerks.

    Seriously, get a grip.

  72. preying mantis
    preying mantis October 26, 2010 at 5:06 pm |

    Obvious troll is obvious.

  73. Sara
    Sara October 27, 2010 at 10:02 pm |

    Am I the only one who dates guys for the sex? I mean, the friend part is fun too I guess, but I have friends.

    THIS. I don’t need another best friend. Sex FTW!

  74. McJeff
    McJeff October 28, 2010 at 8:51 am |

    He believes that women want nothing more than to be venerated and put on a pedestal and only want to have sex with men in exchange for emotional fulfillment from the man”

    I know this thread is most likely over but I can’t resist. As a “hot” “nice” guy, I’ve dated and had relationships with many women (and I was married for 20 years), and I have to tell you most women do seem to have sex and emotional fulfillment inextricably tangled. It could be socialization, after all, women are subject to crazy-making social rules that enforce that entanglement.
    Really though, I rarely meet a woman who is just dating for sex (as PrettyAmiable put it). 99% of women I encounter, whether friends or someone I am dating, has massive calculations surrounding sex with a guy, calculations about a long term relationship, or some other emotionally related agenda.
    It’s refreshing when a woman like PA makes a comment like that, and is honest. Where are the women like that?!?
    Granted, any encounter has an emotional component, and that component is one of the things that makes sex rewarding. However, it’s rare for me to encounter a woman who has an attitude of “You’re cute, let’s fuck” without having some sort of emotional strings attached. Still, I think this is mostly the result of patriarchy, and I think women are under incredible pressure to be different from who they are.
    I hope our continuing work in the area of female rights and equality will include more honest for all about our sexuality.
    And yes, dating absolutely is hard and totally hit or miss. Very difficult to couple up, and even then it’s a lot of work.

  75. groggette
    groggette October 28, 2010 at 10:02 am |

    McJeff: Where are the women like that?!?

    My guess is staying away from guys who say that “99% of women I encounter, whether friends or someone I am dating, [have] massive calculations surrounding sex with a guy, calculations about a long term relationship, or some other emotionally related agenda.”

  76. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable October 28, 2010 at 10:24 am |

    McJeff: I have to tell you most women do seem to have sex and emotional fulfillment inextricably tangled

    And I have to tell you, the same is true for dudes. In February or so, I hooked up with a guy who said he wasn’t looking for a relationship. Apparently, he said this because he was under some mistaken impression that I wanted something more, but in reality, I’m pretty focused on finishing grad school and getting the hell out of here and into a solid career. When he realized I really wasn’t emotionally attached, he flipped. Told everyone I knew we had sex (and embarrassingly for him, I had already been with a few other guys by then), started calling me whenever he was out, then told anyone who would listen about how I was crazy because I was irritated that he told half of my network that we had hooked up. With details about things I do in bed.

    You might argue it was an ego thing, but I would argue that the same is probably true when women are easily “attached.”

    I honestly doubt the desire for emotional attachment and/or sex is as gendered as you think – though I do imagine what we’re willing to display to the public is colored by gender expectations.

    (PS, the lesson I learned from the February guy is to hook up with guys who have a timeline – either graduating in a month, leaving for school in a month, on vacation, and so on. THOSE guys are low drama).

  77. groggette
    groggette October 28, 2010 at 10:31 am |

    PrettyAmiable: And I have to tell you, the same is true for dudes.

    Yep.

  78. Sheelzebub
    Sheelzebub October 28, 2010 at 10:50 am |

    Pretty much what PA said. We’re slut shamed if we have sex without apology (and if we’re assaulted, we’re asking for it by not being Nice Girls). And a lot of men act like if you fuck them, you somehow lose and are diminished.

    Men don’t get emotionally attached if they have sex–until they do, and then if it’s not reciprocated she’s a bitch and a slut. Or doesn’t appreciate nice guys. Heaven forbid they ever fess up and admit that they can tangle up emotions with sex and that women can be just as mercenary about wanting to have NSA sex.

  79. Jadey
    Jadey October 28, 2010 at 11:02 am |

    Yeah, also agreeing with PrettyAmiable.

    I think it’s easier for guys to not be obvious about a desire for emotional attachment (if they have one) because the ladies are supposed to be taking care of that end. Dude can just go along for the ride, making faint protests to his friends in order to keep up appearances, but not really having a problem with the emotional commitment. I also have a friend who’s having trouble finding guys who are genuinely serious when they say they want no emotional attachment – they seem to assume she’s joking or or will change her mind or something?

  80. Kristen J.
    Kristen J. October 28, 2010 at 12:04 pm |

    PrettyAmiable: And I have to tell you, the same is true for dudes.

    Yup. It’s sexist bullshit that men (as a group) experience sex differently from women (as a group).* It is extremely harmful to men when we reinforce the notion that they shouldn’t/don’t naturally seek emotional connection.

    One of the hilarious things I remember from the aforementioned ye olden days was the response I received to my categorical rejection of the possibility of having kids. I (wrongly) assumed that 20-25 year old males either (1) wouldn’t care or (2) would consider it a bonus. But nope. The dudes I was casually dating (where both parties were clear that we were dating other people and it was no strings attached) would flip at the notion that I would not under any circumstances have their baby. I heard “but what if we get married” from people I was seeing no strings attached.

    *Of course as individuals wel experience sex differently and may desire different things at different times.

  81. Usually Lurking
    Usually Lurking October 28, 2010 at 12:19 pm |

    My friend always says: “Everyone driving slower than I am is an idiot, and everyone driving faster than I am is a maniac.”

    And everyone feels that way, no matter how fast they’re driving.

    translated to dating:

    Anyone who focuses too much on certain things and not enough on others is a Nice Guy (TM); and anyone who goes too far in the opposite direction is a predatory bastard asshole.

    And everyone feels that way, no matter what type of people they like.

    That’s why Rick may be a Nice Guy as per Jill, but an actual nice guy as per Jane; and why Bob may be an asshole as per Jane but a nice guy to Jill.

  82. Sheelzebub
    Sheelzebub October 28, 2010 at 12:21 pm |

    One of the hilarious things I remember from the aforementioned ye olden days was the response I received to my categorical rejection of the possibility of having kids. I (wrongly) assumed that 20-25 year old males either (1) wouldn’t care or (2) would consider it a bonus. But nope. The dudes I was casually dating (where both parties were clear that we were dating other people and it was no strings attached) would flip at the notion that I would not under any circumstances have their baby.

    Me too! Usually, these were the same dudes who’d go on and on about how women all wanted to snag a man and get married and have babies, and they could just wait I mean who needs that. But when they found out that women in their lives had no interest in getting married or having kids, lord did they ever squeal. (I really wish I had a dollar for every guy who tried to convince me to change my mind on the kid thing. I could retire right now. In Switzerland.)

    It was personally offensive to them–suddenly they realized that they weren’t this prize in this childish “hard to get” game they set up. It wasn’t that they didn’t want those things–they just wanted the power of being seen to not care.

  83. Kristen J.
    Kristen J. October 28, 2010 at 2:59 pm |

    Sheelzebub: It was personally offensive to them–suddenly they realized that they weren’t this prize in this childish “hard to get” game they set up. It wasn’t that they didn’t want those things–they just wanted the power of being seen to not care. Sheelzebub

    The socially constructed part of masculinity is weird. But then again the socially constructed part of femininity isn’t much better.

  84. Anonymouse
    Anonymouse October 29, 2010 at 3:57 am |

    Usually Lurking,

    Nah, there are other people who are neither Nice Guys ™ or predatory bastard assholes. I should know, I exclusively date them.

    For me, kindness is a must, and so is a spine, and I’m not having a hard time finding men with those two qualities.

    Re: NSA sex, I remember a good friend and I talking about how some guys who say that’s what they want get all sappy and relationshippy, so it is this push pull thing. Be my girl–now go away. Now be my girl–now go away. Stay the night (but I don’t wanna), let me cuddle you (no thanks), let’s go out for drinks (let’s stay in and . . . yeah, you get the point.) And then accusations (and that is what they are) that the woman is getting too emotionally involved. I remember I had to get a little snappish with a guy who accused me of that. (I mean, what do you say, no, not in a million years? Seems unduly cruel.)

  85. closetpuritan
    closetpuritan October 29, 2010 at 8:51 am |

    Another take on the “women only date jerks” statement from Nice Guys(TM)–my boyfriend’s theory is that the reason “negging” and other jerky behavior (or even just “playing hard to get”) works is because it’s used on women who are used to frequently being complimented, flirted with, etc., and that different behavior is needed to stand out from the rest of the guys–but that this behavior ONLY works with the small percentage of women who receive near-constant male attention. (I’m not even sure if I buy that this works for the majority of such women, though–couldn’t they just narrow their suitors down by looks or something instead of going after the few guys who put them down? That might be too rational for human beings, though.)

    Interestingly, this small percentage of women is the only group that counts as “women” to Nice Guys(TM).

  86. Sheelzebub
    Sheelzebub October 29, 2010 at 9:11 am |

    These guys don’t get it. Even the most beautiful woman has been insulted, dismissed, and rejected.

  87. closetpuritan
    closetpuritan October 29, 2010 at 2:09 pm |

    Sheelzebub, are you talking to me?
    Like I said, I’m not sure if I buy this explanation either, but I’m not sure that it’s fair to say this is “not getting it”. Saying that the most beautiful women are insulted or rejected less frequently, and get compliments and flirting more frequently, than other women (to point that the attention becomes pestering and an annoyance or worse) is not the same as saying they’re never insulted or rejected.

  88. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable October 29, 2010 at 2:18 pm |

    I will say that I know guys who use that strategy, closetpuritan, but I’m with Sheelzebub. Maybe it worked on me when I first started dating, but somewhere along the way I decided that if it’s a choice between a guy who has to insult me to start a conversation or get in my pants, I’d much rather be in bed reading a book.

    …It’s kind of passe, you know?

  89. Sheelzebub
    Sheelzebub October 29, 2010 at 2:37 pm |

    Closetpuritan, what I’m saying is that these women have gotten insulted as well as compliment, so the negging doesn’t always work. You said that the thinking goes “but that this behavior ONLY works with the small percentage of women who receive near-constant male attention”. (I’m not saying you buy into it.)

    When I used to hit the bars on a regular basis, I got a lot of male attention and negging pissed me right the fuck off. And I’d turn it around on them and wow, they couldn’t take what they dished out.

    PUA: “Oh, I like your earrings.”

    Me: “Thanks.”

    PUA: “Yeah, my grandmother has earrings like that.”

    Me: “What a coincidence! These were my nana’s. She passed away a year ago.” Turn my back on him and resume conversation with my friends.

    PUA: “Bitch.”

    Or:

    PUA: “I like your hair. Is it dyed?”

    Me: “Why bother asking? You’ll never find out.”

    PUA: “Bitch.”

    (Seriously? Bitch is the best these d00ds can do?)

  90. closetpuritan
    closetpuritan October 29, 2010 at 4:21 pm |

    PrettyAmiable, I’m guessing that if the guys you know who use this were particularly successful, you would have said.

    Sheelzebub, I doubt anything in this category “always” works… and I’m thinking that this type of BS is less likely to appeal to anyone who goes to a feminist site… but there seems to be no evidence that “negging” or similar forms of “playing hard to get” are successful compared to other strategies. There goes that theory of Nice Guy Psychology.

    We’ve definitely established that “bitch”=”woman who directly turns you down”. (But I guess that’s not as bad as “Hitler”?)

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