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Jill has been blogging for Feministe since 2005.
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138 Responses

  1. Lucas
    Lucas May 17, 2011 at 5:41 pm |

    You’re obviously way too old for him.

  2. auditorydamage
    auditorydamage May 17, 2011 at 5:49 pm |

    *blinks*

    Age of consent in NM is 18, according to a quick search.

    If “Nani” *is* currently under the age of 21, this would make her 20 years old, at maximum, as of the writing of the article. 1.5 years ago would have made her 19.5 years old, again at the oldest, when she became pregnant and chose whether she wanted to continue with it.

    She made the right decision*. This guy sets off… more than a few alarm bells.

    * And it’s *her* decision, no one else’s. When it becomes possible for men to carry a fetus, then men can decide whether to continue their own pregnancies.**

    ** ObDworkinQuote: “If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.”

  3. Alberthe
    Alberthe May 17, 2011 at 5:50 pm |

    “I started my pro-life work because I don’t know if it was a miscarriage or an abortion.”

    He doesn’t even know if it actually was an abortion? Does he think miscarriages won’t happen if fathers have more rights?

  4. Becca Stareyes
    Becca Stareyes May 17, 2011 at 5:51 pm |

    I like how he’s willing to name this campaign after some woman who was pregnant and then wasn’t, with the idea that ‘How Dare You Choose to Avoid the Physical Effects of Pregnancy When Half Those Genes were Mine?’ when he’s not even sure there actually was an abortion. Which both strikes me of rubbing salt into the wound for this woman if she did miscarry a pregnancy she wanted to keep*, and that this guy was so upset over this potential offspring he created an organization and took out paid ad space and writing his congresspeople, but couldn’t even be bothered to check up with the mother to see how she was doing while she was pregnant.

    And, you know, maybe he regrets that — I don’t know; I can’t speak for him. But then, shouldn’t he be encouraging men to be there for women they impregnate, even if they end the relationship, rather than trying to guilt or legislate against women who have to bear the physical consequences of pregnancy no matter how many child-support laws you pass and how well you enforce them?

    * Not to mention outing her if she did decide to get an abortion, or decided, either way, that she’d rather everyone not know about that time she was pregnant.

  5. zuzu
    zuzu May 17, 2011 at 5:55 pm |

    Just because you park your car in someone’s garage, folks, it doesn’t give you title to the house.

    “There was a pregnancy, then there wasn’t,” he said, “with a woman named Nani. I started my pro-life work because I don’t know if it was a miscarriage or an abortion. If it was an abortion, my work is set out to prevent this from happening to somebody else. My goal is to try to change one person’s mind when it comes to abortion and let the baby live.

    1. He doesn’t even know whether this was a miscarriage or an abortion.

    2. I note that he does not explain the purpose of the billboard should this have been a miscarriage.

    3. HE DOESN’T KNOW IF IT WAS A MISCARRIAGE OR AN ABORTION.

    4. Nani dodged several bullets and a fucking cannonball.

  6. eli
    eli May 17, 2011 at 6:00 pm |

    Oh my god. This girl made the right decision, if it was, in fact, an abortion.

    Nani, wherever you are, you are better off than being shackled to this man for the rest of your life.

  7. Stacy
    Stacy May 17, 2011 at 6:01 pm |

    “The letters of her name are there for the meaning of value for the reason it was created.” I’m just going to meditate on that for a while.

  8. Athenia
    Athenia May 17, 2011 at 6:08 pm |

    Something tells me that “Nani” is probably not her name anymore.

  9. Amz
    Amz May 17, 2011 at 6:13 pm |

    Aaaaaand this is why women don’t tell their partners.

  10. Sara K.S. Hanks
    Sara K.S. Hanks May 17, 2011 at 6:15 pm |

    The number of ridiculous things is overwhelming.

    “Women have all the power when it comes to pregnancy.” I wish to God that were true. Women make all the physical sacrifices and experience all the mortal dangers when it comes to pregnancy; of course they should have all the power to dictate whether or not those sacrifices/dangers will be part of their life. As soon as the fellas figure out a why to split up the physical responsibilities of pregnancy, labor, and childbirth, let’s talk about how to split up the power to make those decisions.

    And oh my, he doesn’t even know if his ex had the abortion that he is so forcefully accusing her of? And he still has the audacity to name the organization after her? Frak. Ridiculous. So he didn’t ever ask her if she had a miscarriage or an abortion, or he tried to ask her and got no response, or she told him that she had a miscarriage and he doesn’t believe her explanation fully — I can’t think of another possibility. But oh well, no need to get the facts straight. For the man who started the National Association of Needed Information, he does not have very much information.

  11. g.
    g. May 17, 2011 at 6:22 pm |

    Nani, if you’re reading this: Restraining order. NOW.

  12. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable May 17, 2011 at 6:41 pm |

    Shit like this makes me absolutely terrified of dudes.

  13. Stuart McGregor
    Stuart McGregor May 17, 2011 at 6:47 pm |

    I’ve been following this after my cousin posted something about it on FB. Brilliant article. Pass it on, share it, tell whoever will listen, the campaign against this is gaining momentum and we can help this young woman.

    Regards from Scotland

  14. Jordan
    Jordan May 17, 2011 at 7:01 pm |

    Yes, obviously the guy’s a bit crazy, but to call him a ‘walking representation of the pro-life movement’s obsession with controlling women’ is completely absurd and ignorant. For one, not every pro-lifer is so juvenile as to name their organization over an ex out of spite or to make the ridiculous statements that this man does. Also, to say that the objective of the pro-life movement is to ‘control women’ is downright stupid. Pro-lifers believe that a fetus is a human being, and deserves human rights just like anybody else. We’re trying to defend those who can’t defend themselves. Talking about us as if we’re trying to enslave women is petty and malicious. As for Fultz’s comments regarding father’s rights, why not? I’m not saying completely equal legal rights are necessary (obviously women do carry most of the burden early on). But a father is one half of a set of parents, and should have some say as to whether or not HIS fetus is aborted. In custody hearings, the mother of a child doesn’t get any legal advantage, even if she did carry him. I see little reason why they should have a complete monopoly in this instance either, but this is simply my own opinion.
    I realize that this man is clearly out of his mind, but please don’t be so partisan as to make him your go-to example of all pro-lifers (see the inappropriate title of this article). As an aside, next time you write an article dismissing the pro-life movement as ignorant and misogynistic, perhaps you should try not making every other sentence a sarcastic quip. You don’t sound witty, you sound pig-headed. You’ll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

  15. umami
    umami May 17, 2011 at 7:07 pm |

    My goal is to try to change one person’s mind when it comes to abortion

    I can see him succeeding in that, to be fair. This episode is like a cautionary tale for anyone who gets pregnant, considers keeping it, but has doubts about whether the potential father is someone they want involved in their life.

    Nani is the patron saint of lucky escapes.

  16. Kat
    Kat May 17, 2011 at 7:27 pm |

    Whu?? Speechless.

    Has he explained how the shadow baby billboard prevents miscarriages? I’d like to hear that plan.

  17. NotFromHere
    NotFromHere May 17, 2011 at 7:31 pm |

    I heard recently that scientists grew a human eye which I thought was pretty cool. I figure a human uterus won’t be far behind. I wonder how many men will be lining up outside abortion clinics readying their newly installed uterus for an embryo transfer when the technology becomes available. We’ll see then whether this debate is about controlling women, and punishing them for the crime of sex/ youth/ poverty/ whatever other moral failings they mistakening attribute to the issue of abortion at that point shall we?

  18. NotFromHere
    NotFromHere May 17, 2011 at 7:39 pm |

    umami: Nani is the patron saint of lucky escapes.

    *snort laugh*

  19. Aletheia
    Aletheia May 17, 2011 at 7:54 pm |

    Your spam filter loves my comments.

  20. Stacy
    Stacy May 17, 2011 at 8:28 pm |

    Oh my gosh, you guys, Jordan’s honey-like comments have totally made me convert. Pro-lifers don’t want to control women’s bodies or deny our agency. They just love awesome babies! It’s so clear now!

  21. outrageandsprinkles
    outrageandsprinkles May 17, 2011 at 8:31 pm |

    Jordan: A fetus cannot be given human rights if the woman carrying the fetus also has human rights. Her rights, quite simply, are more important.

  22. Lily
    Lily May 17, 2011 at 8:33 pm |

    There is way more to this story. The man in question had a relationship with teenager Nani when she had just turned 18 and he was 33 years old. He began to show his true side to her and she got scared. She BROKE up with him. She did have a miscarriage. He then started to harass her, stalk her, emotionally and mentally abuse her. He started a web site with the purpose to humiliate her. He would stalk her and take her pictures when she was out and about, like at the college (not sure but where he worked at and met her-could be wrong about that) he would take her picture. Then he would post it on this web site to make humiliating & offensive remarks about her. She is slightly physically handicapped. He was and still is harassing her in any way he can for the past 1 1/2 years.
    Quote from article
    “All organizations have a meaning behind them,” he said. “I do not deny that she (a woman named Nani) was the catalyst behind creating this organization. The letters of her name are there for the meaning of value for the reason it was created. It was not created out of spite or out of attack. It’s a meaning for a story for the reason why the group was created.”

    Come on that is BS when he started a web site with her name, where he posted pictures of her to humiliate and harass her.
    He has even admitted to that.

    Not to mention that some of the supporters of this billboard and of him do not care that he has been harassing this girl for the past 1 1/2 years. Disgusting!

  23. Jordan
    Jordan May 17, 2011 at 8:49 pm |

    Stacy, is it really too much trouble to make an honest attempt at civilized discussion? I’m not trying to ‘convert’ anybody. If you’re pro-choice, that’s you’re thing. I’m simply stating my beliefs. And I wouldn’t say that pro-lifers want to “control” women’s bodies any more than pro-choice people want to “control” a fetus’s body. Using that word makes it sound like we’re evil-masterminds of the new world order. I personally believe that a fetus has just as much right to life as a woman (or a man, for that matter).
    I’ve heard the argument before that a woman’s rights are more important. It’s a valid belief, just one that I personally do not hold. Who are any of us to decide whose rights are superior to whose? I understand that defending the rights of the unborn may seem foolish to some, but I don’t think that anybody should be able to terminate a life once it is conceived.

    Your comment, ‘outrage and sprinkles’, somewhat contradicts itself: you say that a fetus does not have rights, yet you say that the rights of a woman are ‘more important’. Do you mean to say that a fetus does have rights then, but that we cannot ‘give’ them their rights because they’re in the womb? Or am I reading too much into your comment?

  24. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable May 17, 2011 at 8:58 pm |

    Jesus Christ. How unbearably ignorant do you have to be to spout off misogynistic, anti-choice nonsense on a feminist site and expect people to treat you like your opinion is remotely valid?

  25. outrageandsprinkles
    outrageandsprinkles May 17, 2011 at 9:03 pm |

    Jordan: My point was that the fetus and the woman cannot both have rights, because the rights of the woman would and should be more important. If your goal is to give rights to the fetus, where does that leave the woman?

  26. Stacy
    Stacy May 17, 2011 at 9:08 pm |

    Yeah, PrettyAmiable pretty much covered it.

    Jordan, if you don’t agree with abortions, don’t have abortions But don’t go on a feminist website, tell the blogger to be a good girl, admonish us to stop criticizing nice pro-lifers because you understand women’s experiences better than we do and then act affronted when I don’t take you seriously.

  27. Nimue
    Nimue May 17, 2011 at 9:10 pm |

    The way I understand it, pro-life-ism is tied in with evangelical Christian worldview, and states that while yes, the woman *has* rights, she should selflessly give up these rights temporarily in order to protect the rights of the fetus, who/which can not advocate for its/his/her own rights. So I’m not sure how this kind of argument could be applicable to someone with a different worldview.

  28. Stacy
    Stacy May 17, 2011 at 9:11 pm |

    Crap, I just engaged with a troll. What was I thinking?! I know it just feeds them. Sorry, Feministers.

  29. Tori
    Tori May 17, 2011 at 9:12 pm |

    Jordan, let’s try this — You be the boss of your body; I’ll be the boss of mine.

  30. Wayne Dodson
    Wayne Dodson May 17, 2011 at 9:18 pm |

    Fandamntastic review of the current local situation. Would like t’ stand ALL of you a cup of coffee! And, totally agree with the “Nani, Patron Saint of Lucky Escapes”. Would make an awesome tee shirt.

  31. MTR
    MTR May 17, 2011 at 9:41 pm |

    Wayne Dodson:
    Fandamntastic review of the current local situation.Would like t’ stand ALL of you a cup of coffee! And, totally agree with the “Nani, Patron Saint of Lucky Escapes”.Would make an awesome tee shirt.

    or billboard

  32. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable May 17, 2011 at 10:02 pm |

    Stacy: Crap, I just engaged with a troll. What was I thinking?! I know it just feeds them. Sorry, Feministers.

    I thought that as I was typing, but I was already so pissed at the billboard guy that I couldn’t keep myself from engaging.

  33. Jordan
    Jordan May 17, 2011 at 10:12 pm |

    Pretty Amiable and Stacy: Sorry, I must have been unbearably ignorant to assume that you would listen to what I had to say, consider it, and then form your own opinion. Outrageous, I know. Also, point out to me exactly which of my opinions is misogynistic? Did I ever say that women are inferior? Did I say they shouldn’t have rights? No, I said that I believe that the unborn child’s right to life deserves more consideration, and that not all pro-lifers are as ignorant as the man in the article. Also, in case my name threw you off, I am a woman (yes, we can be pro-choice, too), not some man who keeps his wife locked in a closet. Please don’t dismiss me as a troll just because you have a different opinion.

    outrage and sprinkles: Thank you for presenting an actual, intellectual argument, as opposed to simply hurling insults. I believe that, as a human being, the fetus should have an equal right to life as that of a woman. I believe that life starts at conception, not birth, and I believe that taking away the rights of any human being is wrong. I know that this leaves the woman in a harsh situation, but I don’t believe that taking away the life of the fetus is justified. While I disagree with you, I respect your ability to at least argue intelligently for your beliefs, as opposed to most other responses I’ve seen.

    Nimue: While I’ll concede that much of the pro-life movement is based around religion, I don’t think it has to be exclusively. I think the basic division between the two sides is the decision between when human life starts. A mother doesn’t have the right to kill her children if she doesn’t want them, because we all agree that a child is a human being. My pro-life belief is based around my belief that a fetus is also a person. It isn’t a matter of giving up a woman’s rights, because I don’t think that she does have the right to have an abortion. I also believe that the fact that a fetus is unable to advocate for its own rights is all the more reason for adults to. Just because one has no voice doesn’t mean that one has no rights. I understand that many people disagree with me on this; I mostly posted a comment to defend the pro-life movement from being characterized by one man’s foolish actions, and to submit my beliefs for the consideration of others.

    Tori: As for the whole “if you don’t want an abortion, don’t have one” argument, normally I would agree with you. I think that, so long as one is of sound mind, no adult should be restricted from doing what they wish, provided it doesn’t harm anyone else. But that’s just the thing; abortion does harm the fetus. I simply can’t advocate that.

  34. Tori
    Tori May 17, 2011 at 10:22 pm |

    Jordan, if you “simply can’t advocate” women having agency over their own bodies… maybe you got lost on the Internet to wind up here?

  35. Lyn
    Lyn May 17, 2011 at 10:27 pm |

    Stacy – I can’t not feed the troll either :( Sorry all, but here goes:

    Jordan: “You don’t sound witty, you sound pig-headed. You’ll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.”

    Seriously? Since you’ve made a tone argument about Jill’s article, I’ll point out that your tone here is ridiculously patronising. If you wanted to engage honestly, in a measured manner, you wouldn’t say stuff like ‘use honey not vinegar’ to make your point, given that it implies that Jill is an oversensitive woman-type incapable of rational argument. Also, here’s a tip – we’re on a feminist site and tend to agree about women having the right to control their bodies. This means ‘we’ are not necessarily trying to catch ‘flies’ (by which I assume you mean pro-lifers), but to express righteous indignation about people who want to take away women’s control of their bodies.

    And yes, putting the fetus’s rights above or ‘equal to’ (whatever the hell that would mean!) women is messed up because women have to carry them. A fetus is not an innocent, passive thing – it actually grows, absorbs energy and nutrients from a woman’s body and can cause so many health problems from which a woman CAN DIE or suffer permanent injury. These are not things a father has to worry about, fyi: this is why women have the rights during pregnancy (the part where the fetus is in her body) and parents and children have rights after the child is born (when everyone is actually a human being that does not use another human body as life support).

  36. auditorydamage
    auditorydamage May 17, 2011 at 10:28 pm |

    Jordan, just to be sure we’re all clear here – you’re OK with forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth when she does not want a child and does not want to go through the PITA that pregnancy can be, and often is? You have no problem forcing a woman to give birth? Because that’s what you’re saying is a defensible position, denying a woman any right to terminate a pregnancy from the moment a fertilized egg implants whetjer she wants to go through with it or not.

    Just so we’re clear.

  37. Iris
    Iris May 17, 2011 at 10:29 pm |

    Good Goddess – have people no fucking shame, at all? This guy fucks a woman who is half his age – he has limited to no communication skills and then erects (pun intended) a billboard accusing his girlfriend of something she may or may not have done? I have no words to describe this kind of stupidity.

    Jordan – Honestly, don’t you think telling a woman what medical procedures she is allowed to undergo is just a tad invasive? Seriously – I have to make what goes on inside my body your business? You can find nothing else to do with your life except agitate for the rights of gestating fetuses? On a feminist website? Really? You don’t present any new arguments. Just the same old same old.
    If men don’t want “their” fetus aborted, then they need to have penis/vagina sex only with women who want to have their baby. On the other hand, since women have complete control over their bodies – they can fuck whomever they please. It’s so simple and no billboards – yay.
    And, please learn the difference between a contraction in grammar and a possessive – otherwise you just sound stupid.

    umami – Nani is indeed the patron saint of lucky escapes – I am lighting a candle to her right now in honor of the full moon.

  38. NotFromHere
    NotFromHere May 17, 2011 at 10:30 pm |

    Jordan – unwanted (and often wanted) pregnancy harms a woman. I just can’t advocate that.

  39. Granny T
    Granny T May 17, 2011 at 10:32 pm |

    Jordan, if you believe that a fetus is a person, you shouldn’t have a problem with most abortions, because they occur in the first trimester, when what the woman has inside her is an embryo, not a fetus.
    If you really value unborn life, there are lots of things you and your fellow “pro-lifers” can do: advocate, loudly, for affordable medical care for pregnant women, advocate, loudly for clean air and water, and advocate, loudly, for an end to stupid wars. That’d be a good start.

  40. Victoria
    Victoria May 17, 2011 at 10:34 pm |

    Jordan:
    I know that this leaves the woman in a harsh situation, but I don’t believe that taking away the life of the fetus is justified.

    Harsh situation. Nice gloss. When having a child is the difference between feeding your other children and not. When having a child is the difference between finishing your education and not. When having a child is the difference between living to see the next year and not. That’s a “harsh situation.”

    Your willful ignorance is harshing my mellow. If you really want to start saving children then please start advocating for universal affordable child care, paid parental leave, and living wages for all before you tell me how wonderful zygotes are. Otherwise, gtfo.

  41. Tori
    Tori May 17, 2011 at 10:35 pm |

    NotFromHere:
    Jordan – unwanted (and often wanted) pregnancy harms a woman. I just can’t advocate that.

    I kind of love you right now.

  42. Jordan
    Jordan May 17, 2011 at 10:57 pm |

    Okay, let’s start this up again:
    Tori: I consider myself a feminist in that I believe that women deserve equal rights to men. A woman can be pro-life without being a misogynist, a religious fundamentalist, or a bimbo. I believe that women deserve equal rights to men because I believe that all human beings deserve equal rights. From this argument comes my pro-life belief.

    Lyn: I regret writing the ‘honey not vinegar’ bit, my intent wasn’t to make the writer sound ‘over-sensitive’, I’m mostly sick and tired of the pro-choice argument, or any argument, being based around sarcastic comments made to make the opposition look ridiculous. Abortion is obviously a huge issue, and one that tends to stir up peoples emotions. As such, it deserves to be discussed in a respectful manner, instead of having both sides spew antagonistic remarks. I refrain from the usual “abortion is murder”, “you’re all going to hell” kind of crap that I unfortunately hear from some pro-lifers. If my tone was patronising, I apologize.
    I also realize what a burden pregnancy is to a woman’s body, which is that, if abortion is to be allowed, the woman should have MORE legal say than the man. However, I believe that the man should have some say, as it is his child. I suppose that how much say a husband has is up to his wife in this matter, I only hope that she would at least consider her baby’s father’s opinion.

    AuditoryDamage: Looking past all of the negative spin you’ve put on my opinion, yes, that’s basically my belief. Yes, I realize pregnancy sucks a lot. Yes, I realize giving birth sucks a lot. Yes, I realize that all pregnancy carries health risks for the woman. However, I am not willing to see an unborn child’s life end simply because of these risks. I don’t see a *possible* health risk as justification for *definitely* ending a life.

    GrannyT: You’re right, I’ve been using the wrong word all along; I should have been saying ‘embryo’. Just to be clear, I believe that life starts at conception. As for the latter part of your comment, I advocate absolutely for affordable health care, environmental awareness, and an end to any and all wars our country is currently engaged in.

  43. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable May 17, 2011 at 10:59 pm |

    Jordan: Sorry, I must have been unbearably ignorant to assume that you would listen to what I had to say, consider it, and then form your own opinion.

    No, kiddo, you’re demonstrating your unbearable ignorance by marching in here and thinking we haven’t already heard everything you’re saying before and still come to the same conclusion. You are not a special little flower. Also, an anti-choice position is by default misogynistic. It is anti-woman and pro-fetus.

  44. Tori
    Tori May 17, 2011 at 11:01 pm |

    A woman can be pro-life without being a misogynist, a religious fundamentalist, or a bimbo.

    Does anyone else need this line on a T-shirt?

  45. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable May 17, 2011 at 11:01 pm |

    Jordan: A woman can be pro-life without being a misogynist,

    No.

  46. Jordan
    Jordan May 17, 2011 at 11:04 pm |

    Victoria: Okay, if we’re going to be attacking both my beliefs and my wording, unwanted pregnancy is terrible. It’s horrible, sad, and one of the most difficult situations a woman will most likely ever face. As for the whole financial argument for pro-choice, I just don’t see it. If your justification for abortion is simply ‘I can’t afford’ this baby, then that simply puts a price on a human life. And if that is the argument you’re going with, there are plenty of adoption agencies who will take your unwanted child.

    As I said to GrannyT, I advocate just about everything you mentioned. Telling me to gtfo was nice, though. I figured that the readers of this blog would be intelligent, mature enough people to hear an opposing opinion, give it serious thought, and if the case may be, disagree with it in a civilized manner. Perhaps I was wrong.

  47. Tori
    Tori May 17, 2011 at 11:05 pm |

    I don’t see a *possible* health risk as justification for *definitely* ending a life.

    PS, Jordan — I have a couple of medical conditions that would make carrying a pregnancy to term very likely a serious health risk for me. I’m glad to know my unwanted suffering and possible death would be going to some kind of “higher” good. Thanks for believing what I do with my own uterus to preserve my own life does not matter.

  48. Jordan
    Jordan May 17, 2011 at 11:08 pm |

    Pretty Amiable: Why would it bother you to hear an opposing opinion than yours? Have I attacked you in some way? I’ve specifically gone out of my way to be as courteous as possible in this discussion, yet all I’ve heard in response is hostility. If you come to the same conclusion, that’s fine with me. Just wasted breath (so to speak) on my part. I never said I was a ‘special little flower’, thank you very much.

    Misogyny is defined as ‘hatred or contempt for women’. Someone please explain to me how my pro-life stance is misogynist.

  49. Victoria
    Victoria May 17, 2011 at 11:12 pm |

    Jordan- Conception? Hmmm? So when egg meets sperm it’s a done deal till natural death, right? You realize that rules out IUDs, plan B, many hormonal birth control methods, and goes against what the American Medical Association, WHO, and what many other scientific associations consider the beginning of human development (implantation of the fertilized ovum into the uterine wall)?

    But no. You know when life begins so all uterus-having-kind must bow before you and bear every pregnancy to term. But you will probably ignore me again, because I should be out bearing all those babies instead of going to school and working!

  50. Jordan
    Jordan May 17, 2011 at 11:12 pm |

    Tori: I’m sorry to hear about any health complications you have, but that doesn’t change my position. I’m honestly tiring of responding to constant hostility and attacks. Unless this discussion gets less antagonistic, I’ll probably just leave, since apparently this blog is no place for intellectual conversation.

  51. auditorydamage
    auditorydamage May 17, 2011 at 11:14 pm |

    “However, I am not willing to see an unborn child’s life end simply because of these risks.”

    Well, when you’re pregnant, you can make that decision for yourself. Why do you think you have any right to decide what any other person allows to happen in their body? Why do you value the rights and the life of a going-to-be-but-not-yet-a-person embryo/fetus over those of the already-born person you’re forcing to carry that fetus? Why is stating what you’re proposing – forcing a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy and give birth – a “negative spin”? Why do you think denying the rights and bodily autonomy of a woman in favour of those of a forming fetus is anything but misogynist?

  52. Jordan
    Jordan May 17, 2011 at 11:16 pm |

    Victoria: If you didn’t see my previous comment, I am also one of those ‘uterus-bearing’ kinds. I realize exactly what my opinions mean, and I stand behind them. I understand the AMA and WHO’s opinions on the matter, I simply disagree with them. Nobody knows definitively when life begins, I understand that. My belief just happens to be different than yours. I’m not asking anyone to ‘bow to me’. I was simply expressing an opinion, which for some reason has made you quite angry.

  53. Tori
    Tori May 17, 2011 at 11:16 pm |

    Jordan:
    Tori: I’m sorry to hear about any health complications you have, but that doesn’t change my position.I’m honestly tiring of responding to constant hostility and attacks.Unless this discussion gets less antagonistic, I’ll probably just leave, since apparently this blog is no place for intellectual conversation.

    Jordan: I’m sorry to hear you don’t give a shit about actual people.

  54. RoryBorealis
    RoryBorealis May 17, 2011 at 11:18 pm |

    Not that it will do any good, but here goes, using teeny tiny words so maybe you’ll understand them:

    Insisting that zygotes, embryos, and fetuses are more important than actual women is a misogynist stance. Insisting that they are even equally as important as actual women is a misogynist stance. Expecting women to continue unwanted pregnancies that can and frequently do kill or permanently damage the health of women is a misogynist stance. Claiming that you know more about what is good or important for women than women themselves is misogynist.

    Sorry, kiddo. Your whole argument boils down to a foot-stomping tantrum because you think we’re snippy for not worshiping zygotes, embryos, and fetuses as much as you do and for asserting our rights and personhood. Incidentally, really smart people who argue well don’t need to state outright that they’re really smart and argue well.

  55. Jordan
    Jordan May 17, 2011 at 11:19 pm |

    AuditoryDamage: Once again, it is not only the woman’s body, it is also the baby’s. As for “going-to-be-but-not-yet-a-person”, I’ve stated once again that I believe an embryo is a human. I understand that you believe differently. As for misogyny, my opinions have nothing to do with gender bias. If men bore children rather than women, I’d have the same opinion. I don’t hate women any more than you hate infants.

  56. Lyn
    Lyn May 17, 2011 at 11:19 pm |

    You came looking for intellectual conversation on a feminist blog and expect EVERY commenter to react in a ‘civilised’ manner to your opinion that women’s bodies and suffering are less important than the life of a fetus? I humbly apologise, but I find it difficult to avoid using sarcasm in response to this.

  57. Jordan
    Jordan May 17, 2011 at 11:21 pm |

    Tori: I made it perfectly clear that I’m sorry if you have any health issues. Believe me, I’m sorry to hear that. But my sympathy for you doesn’t change my beliefs. Why you had to take it so offensively is beyond me.

  58. Tori
    Tori May 17, 2011 at 11:23 pm |

    Jordan:
    Tori: I made it perfectly clear that I’m sorry if you have any health issues.Believe me, I’m sorry to hear that.But my sympathy for you doesn’t change my beliefs.Why you had to take it so offensively is beyond me.

    Because according to your beliefs, were I to become pregnant, I should risk death. That’s a fucking offensive sentiment.

    Why you fail to comprehend your ableist privilege is beyond me.

  59. Stacy
    Stacy May 17, 2011 at 11:25 pm |

    Why does your pro-life stance show hatred or contempt for women? Because it is predicated on the belief that a zygote’s, embryo’s or fetus’ life or potential for life always trumps a woman’s life.

    Because when you argue for “human life,” you always mean the embryo’s life. You never mean the woman’s life. We aren’t human enough.

    Because you think you and (to refer to the original story) a teenage girl’s stalker are better equipped to decide what all women everywhere should do in every situation, than those women themselves.

    There’s a start.

  60. Lyn
    Lyn May 17, 2011 at 11:28 pm |

    Jordan: As for misogyny, my opinions have nothing to do with gender bias. If men bore children rather than women, I’d have the same opinion. I don’t hate women any more than you hate infants.

    So, in a science fiction scenario where both men and women give birth you wouldn’t be gender biased. It does not follow that, in this world, you aren’t misogynist. Because in this world, you advocate denying women thier bodily autonomy.

  61. Jordan
    Jordan May 17, 2011 at 11:31 pm |

    Lyn: You’re right. I suppose I expected too much of all of you.

    Goodbye, all. I expressed my opinion (the foremost of which was that we should not use one foolish man’s actions as a characterization of pro-life in its entirety), trying only to perhaps give you something to think about, but it’s clear to me now that you all stick to your beliefs without caring to consider they’re truth. I didn’t come here expecting to change many minds, but I thought at the very least people would respectfully consider what I had to say, rather than giving such hostile kneejerk reactions and making me out to be some brainless, self-hating woman. If this is truly a ‘feminist’ blog of strong, freethinking women, then it is no wonder that feminism is so looked down upon by some.
    I wish you all the best, and goodbye.

  62. Victoria
    Victoria May 17, 2011 at 11:32 pm |

    I just did. For that, I retract that piece of what I said and apologize. The rest I stand by- and echo Tori. It’s not “putting a price on human life” it is in fact making a mature decision on the value of your own life and the lives of those that depend on you. Putting shelter over your head, feeding yourself, and keeping yourself from harm are not putting a price on life. It is in fact valuing life.

    I’m Jewish and I believe it is a moral imperative to do what is needed to ensure your physical, emotional, and spiritual health and that of your family (however you define your family). If someone bears a child that is unwanted and cannot be cared for that is a great evil in this world. You are saying that whatever the cost, no matter how great, be it death or starvation a child should be brought into this world at the cost of other lives.

    You seem to think that someone does not know their own lives better than you and who is advocating a cookie-cutter simple solution to a complex issue that goes to the heart of human life makes me angry. You don’t have what my rabbi calls a “moral imagination,” you cannot envision the different forms everyone’s lives take and for that I truly pity you.

  63. Stacy
    Stacy May 17, 2011 at 11:32 pm |

    And beyond misogynist, Jordan, it’s just plain horrible to make these eliminationist responses like, “Oh, I’m sorry to hear about your health problems, but whatever I’m still right.” Which in this case basically amounts to, “I don’t care if you die as long as you make a baby.” And you BOTH won’t acknowledge how deeply heinous that is, AND keep calling people who are calling you out on her behavior uncivilized and hostile. There is a reason they feel hostile. You are telling them they are less than human. That can make people upset sometimes.

  64. RoryBorealis
    RoryBorealis May 17, 2011 at 11:34 pm |

    Classic flounce!

  65. auditorydamage
    auditorydamage May 17, 2011 at 11:35 pm |

    “As for the whole financial argument for pro-choice, I just don’t see it. If your justification for abortion is simply ‘I can’t afford’ this baby, then that simply puts a price on a human life.”

    No, it’s a rational decision based upon availability of resources to provide that soon-to-be child not just with existence, but with food, clothing, shelter, attention, and care. If a person is willing to carry out the task, or is willing to trust someone else with the task, then allowing the pregnancy to continue is a perfectly viable choice (there’s that word again) that hundreds of millions of women make every year.

    But if that woman is in no position, financially, emotionally, or physically, to carry a fetus to term and care for the person, and does not wish to consign that child to the crapshoot that is adoption, why should she be forced to do so? If my mother had instead decided she was not ready or able to raise a child, I would have had no problem with her aborting the pregnancy – from my POV, better that she has a child she wants and loves instead of one she didn’t want and couldn’t, or wouldn’t, care for. It would have been better for her, and under those circumstances would almost certainly have been better for me – parental resentment, anxiety, and neglect are major sources of trauma that can severely negatively affect a person’s life (and due to some particular physical and mental characteristics of mine, I’m very lucky my parents loved and wanted me; I shudder to think what kind of emotional and physical mess I would be now if I’d been forced upon an unwilling mother – or if I’d landed in the adoption system and ended up subjected to a further roll of the dice over which I had no control).

    I see nothing positive, for the woman or for the potential child, from forced birth. Life is wonderful for the living, but its mere propagation should not override the choice of a person to participate in that process. We understand enough about it to exert better control over it than our ancestors, and I see no reason to deny a woman the opportunity to decide, for herself, whether to undergo the physically and, often, emotionally stressful process.

  66. Lyn
    Lyn May 17, 2011 at 11:37 pm |

    Jeez, did feminism start advocating for mandatory abortions when I wasn’t looking? We advocate choice, last I checked. If you believe life starts at conception – that’s totally fine. Don’t abort your own baby (or use birth control). Doesn’t follow that you have to tell everyone else what to think and do, or mean that your opinion is ‘true’. It’s not, objectively or verifyably, true. It’s an opinion.

    This is called ‘freethinking’. Y’know, choice.

  67. CaliOak
    CaliOak May 17, 2011 at 11:38 pm |

    A woman does not have freedom of religion, freedom of conscience, bodily integrity, control of her own medical decisions, life, self determination, control of her labor, freedom from forced labor, or self determination unless she has control of her fertility.

    A male bodied person participates conception. A male bodied person can choose to be involved in parenting. A male bodied person can’t participate in being pregnant. So a male bodied person does not have the right to enslave a female bodied person and force the female bodied person to do difficult painful work for the male bodied person at risk to the female bodied person’s life.

    Giving female bodied people continuous access to contraception from menarche to menopause would reduce unintended pregnancies. A male birth control pill would reduce unintended pregnancies.

    Every woman/man being able to bring children into the world knowing she/he will be able to care for their child, and that their child will be able to have a good life…that’s a prolife stance I’ll fight for.

  68. Nightsky
    Nightsky May 17, 2011 at 11:38 pm |

    Jordan: Something like 40% of zygotes don’t implant. If those ARE separate, equal beings with rights equal to the woman’s, why aren’t we prosecuting those women for negligent homicide? In fact, Jordan, this may have already happened to you! Can you prove it hasn’t? (You may not have noticed anything but a heavy period.) You murderer.

    When you reject this argument, you will understand why I reject yours.

    You cannot be a feminist and be anti-choice. Either you believe women’s bodies are their own, or you don’t. To say that society can force women to bear children is to say that womens’ bodies are not their own, but society’s. To say that no woman would voluntarily choose abortion is to say that women lack moral agency. And to say that women should just give up the baby for adoption betrays a stunning lack of awareness of the plight of thousands of American children languishing in the foster care system because they are not healthy white infants.

  69. evil fizz
    evil fizz May 17, 2011 at 11:40 pm | *

    Glad to see Jordan stuck around long enough to garner consideration for FNTT. Sweet Jesus. I think we’ll have to call this round Goodbye, Cruel World*!

    *starts singing slightly off-key without the slightest trace of honey*

    Oh, goodbye cruel world, I’m off to join the circus
    Gonna be a broken-hearted clown
    Paint my face with a good-for-nothin’ smile
    ’cause a mean, fickle woman turned my whole world upside down!

    *aka the Feministe comments section

  70. auditorydamage
    auditorydamage May 17, 2011 at 11:44 pm |

    Darn it, the ejection lever got pulled.

    Might be a good thing, actually; now I won’t be up all night debating the rights of blastocyst-Americans, and might actually get some sleep.

  71. cat
    cat May 17, 2011 at 11:46 pm |

    Okay, Jordan, here we go:

    1) You claim your objection to abortion is not based on religious fundamentalism. I have to call bullshit on that one. How can anyone rationally looking at biology assert that a thing with no fucking brain is a person? They really can’t. Something that has less neurological development than a cockroach is not a person. It does not have thoughts and emotions, because it physically lacks the biological capacity for such. The science on this one is pretty damned clear about the neurology of early term fetuses and MRI studies show a smooth frontal lobe at fifteen weeks ( and 96% of abortions occur before that). So, in what bizarre world could one possibly assert that an early term fetus is a person? Oh, wait, I know, one where we have some bizarre theory about souls and embryos due to a religious belief. You do not get to inflict your non-reality based religious views on anyone else, ever.

    2) Even if fetuses were people, you demand that they be given greater rights than any other person. No other person has the right to non-consensual use of another’s body, even for their own survival. This is why we do not have forced kidney donation, even between relatives, for example. For more on this issue (how abortion is ethical even if we posit fetal personhood), I recommend Judith Jarvis-Thomson’s excellent paper, available online here http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm

  72. Opheelia
    Opheelia May 18, 2011 at 12:01 am |

    A. “Nani, Patron Saint of Lucky Escapes”.Would make an awesome tee shirt.

    Wanted: That t-shirt. And possibly a pair of panties with that on the front, preferably bedazzled, but not necessary for purchase.

    B. @Jordan: I’m the definition of HTML fail, so I’m just going to use quotes. And I’m trying to engage respectfully, so please read with that lens. I’m also trying to be inclusive of transgendered people, so if I fuck up on language, I apologize in advance.

    You wrote:
    “I believe that women deserve equal rights to men because I believe that all human beings deserve equal rights. From this argument comes my pro-life belief.”

    By granting a fetus the right to use a body against her will, you’re granting it a right no other human has. That’s not an acknowledgement of equal rights; that’s reducing the rights of biological females simply because they happen to be born biologically female.

    “I also realize what a burden pregnancy is to a woman’s body, which is that, if abortion is to be allowed, the woman should have MORE legal say than the man. However, I believe that the man should have some say, as it is his child.”

    But it’s not his body. And how much say do you think he should have?

    “I suppose that how much say a husband has is up to his wife in this matter, I only hope that she would at least consider her baby’s father’s opinion.”

    In healthy relationships, conversation about these issues is usually possible. She can say what she wants, he can say what he wants, and both consider the effect on their own and their partners’ lives. I advocate that the decision is hers, because her body is the one housing the fetus and is responsible for it in utero, and usually beyond. However, when coercion, force, intimidation, isolation, or any of a number of other abusive behaviors are present, the conversation isn’t equal. Those aren’t the usual discussions between intimate partners. In those situations, I don’t think (and I may be wrong) that anyone would advocate that he has ANY say.

    I encourage you to look into the research at Futures Without Violence (formerly the Family Violence Prevention Fund). They’ve been doing a lot of work on reproductive coercion, which is when abusive male partners actively sabotage contraceptive efforts in order to impregnate their partners.

    “Yes, I realize pregnancy sucks a lot. Yes, I realize giving birth sucks a lot. Yes, I realize that all pregnancy carries health risks for the woman. However, I am not willing to see an unborn child’s life end simply because of these risks. I don’t see a *possible* health risk as justification for *definitely* ending a life.”

    In any other situation, being forced to undergo nine months of hormonal and physical changes, including changes in diet and sleep, would at best make you a prisoner. In any other situation, being forced to undergo 8-48 hours (average) of what some describe as the single most excruciating pain a human can experience, expelling a seven pound ball out of a bodily orifice, literally ripping tissue and sometimes breaking bones, would at best be considered torture.

    Biological females who want a baby go through all of that willingly, because they get a wanted baby. But if they get pregnant and don’t want a baby, don’t want to birth a child, and/or don’t want to be pregnant, how do we, as a society, tell them that what they want doesn’t matter?

    Unless, of course, it doesn’t.

  73. Kristen J.
    Kristen J. May 18, 2011 at 12:16 am |

    Wow…ummm….just wow. Also, wow. And possibly why? But mostly wow.

  74. Lyn
    Lyn May 18, 2011 at 12:18 am |

    Isn’t that billboard libel given that Nani may have miscarried and he has no proof she had an abortion? Plus, abortion is legal and hence not murder? Clearly it needs some clarification.

    “This Would Have Been A Picture Of My 2-month Old Baby If The Mother Had Decided To Not KILL Our Child! [sic].”

    Small print: Mother may not have actually killed the child

  75. outrageandsprinkles
    outrageandsprinkles May 18, 2011 at 12:25 am |

    Victoria: I would like to meet your Rabbi, because he sounds awesome.

  76. rayuela23
    rayuela23 May 18, 2011 at 12:55 am |

    “You’ll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.”

    Did you get that, Jill?

    MORE FLIES WITH HONEY! We totes want more flies around here! Stop with the vinegar already!

  77. Melissa Huang
    Melissa Huang May 18, 2011 at 1:14 am |

    I love this site so much. So much.

    I just had to listen to some jerk from my dorm try to argue that women should not have access to abortions because they should have been responsible enough to not get pregnant in the first place. I told him that that was a misogynistic view and explained why.

    Then he said that I was being smallminded (?) and not supportive of contraceptives (?). Then his asshole friend told me that if I supported abortion I also supported murder and assault.

    So to come here and find so many people taking a non-asshole stance on this (excluding Jordan of course) is heartwarming. You are all just the best!

  78. SephONE
    SephONE May 18, 2011 at 2:46 am |

    -rearranges a few sentences-

    It was not created out of spite or out of attack.

    “This Would Have Been A Picture Of My 2-month Old Baby If The Mother Had Decided To Not KILL Our Child!”

    So calling someone a murderer is just polite conversation now. Good To Know. This guy is so transparent, which makes him even creepier.

    “Women have all the power when it comes to pregnancy. The men get no say when a woman wants to go and have an abortion without the say of the father. I believe that is wrong because men are 50 percent of the result of the pregnancy. They should have an equal right to their unborn child and decisions regarding it.”

    Sure a lot of focus on the ‘power’ women have and the need to strip it away. Also.. uh.. 50 percent? No, i’m pretty sure it’s smaller, much smaller percent. Uteruses do about 90 percent of the work.. they’re the ones who /make/ the result. Y’know, /in their bodies/. Anyone else notice the uterus’ role in making a child is actually dishonestly downplayed a lot? Like calling the sperm the ‘seed’. Actually, the egg should be the seed in the metaphor. The sperm is more like… water from an oddly shaped can.

  79. gretchen
    gretchen May 18, 2011 at 4:51 am |

    I’m trying to come up with a fun and not-at all-a-personal-attack meaning for my new organisation with a G.R.E.G.A.F.U.L.T.Z acronym, G.A.F.U.L part could be -Gargantuan Asshole Fertilizing Underage Ladies maybe? Struggling with the rest.

    Slogan:

    “This Would Have Been A Picture Of High School Diploma If The Father Had Decided To Not KILL My Agency!”

  80. Bonn
    Bonn May 18, 2011 at 5:07 am |

    Gosh, I sure hope Jordan didn’t pull or tear something, flouncing that hard.

  81. Sheelzebub
    Sheelzebub May 18, 2011 at 5:40 am |

    But a father is one half of a set of parents, and should have some say as to whether or not HIS fetus is aborted.

    When said fetus is in MY body, my partner has no say in what I can or cannot do. It affects my health. Pregnancy is quite risky, and it’s really entitled and misogynist of you to decide that it’s okay to force women to put their bodies through pregnancies that they do not want or cannot handle. When YOU have to deal with the many risks of pregnancy directly (as in, when YOU can get pregnant), YOU get to decide. You don’t get to decide for other people.

  82. dan
    dan May 18, 2011 at 6:14 am |

    I think this girl made right decision

  83. preying mantis
    preying mantis May 18, 2011 at 6:23 am |

    Man, if this article had been discovered a week ago, we totally wouldn’t have needed the “tell about abortion” thread. We could have just looked at the links side by side and then made a mental note to never date dudes named Greg.

  84. tinfoil hattie
    tinfoil hattie May 18, 2011 at 6:56 am |

    It’s inherently “unfair” that women can get pregnant and men can’t. So deal with it, dudes and/or misogynist anti-choice women. Tough shit. Life is unfair. Grow up and accept the facts.

    This is just one big whine that women can do something men can’t do. Not that most men would want to do it if they could. Therein lies the paradox.

  85. ~s~
    ~s~ May 18, 2011 at 7:26 am |

    Man. I know this makes me sound like a terrible person, but if I were Nani I would call a big press conference and tell everyone (whether it’s true or not) that it was a wanted pregnancy and a terribly traumatic miscarriage being made all the more traumatic by the Douchebag Ex. You know. Just so ALL the world could see how terrible a person he was. Also to make a point about the assumption of women’s guilt every time a pregnancy ends.

  86. Slush
    Slush May 18, 2011 at 7:39 am |

    I think maybe you forgot how he will also do have of the child care and housework?

  87. Slush
    Slush May 18, 2011 at 7:39 am |

    Half, sorry. Not have.

  88. anna
    anna May 18, 2011 at 7:41 am |

    In the United States (don’t know about other countries) men are literally allowed to refuse to donate a kidney even if doing so is the only way to save their already-born child’s life. So forcing women to stay pregnant against their will for the sake of the fetus would be giving women less rights than men, as they would be forced to use their body to keep someone who hadn’t even been born yet alive, and the men would be free to decline even in the case of an already-born child.

  89. Kierra
    Kierra May 18, 2011 at 7:57 am |

    You’ll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

    I doubt Jordan’s still around, but I can’t resist posting this anyway:
    http://xkcd.com/357/

  90. mztress
    mztress May 18, 2011 at 7:58 am |

    Jordan:
    Pro-lifers believe that a fetus is a human being, and deserves human rights just like anybody else.We’re trying to defend those who can’t defend themselves.

    Oh yeah. That’s why certain groups of the precious fetuses are allowed to be born only so that they can suffer through various torments such as death from starvation, death from preventable diseases, lack of education, lack of autonomy over their own lives, overall abuse and neglect (from mainstream society and/or people close to them), abject poverty, homelessness.

    Thanks for clearing up the value that is put on all life in this society, pal. I really needed an education in such things.

  91. mztress
    mztress May 18, 2011 at 8:19 am |

    Womyn have all the power in pregnancy. That’s why there are men in Congress telling us that we broke the economy by getting reproductive health services. That’s why womyn are being imprisoned and slandered because they (maybe) had an abortion and or miscarriage. That’s why my big, liberal, mostly free-thinking city of Chicago now has preachy, guilt-mongering pro-life billboards everywhere (and I won’t even go into the pro-life ads in predominately black neighborhoods depicting pictures of Obama and subtly accusing black womyn of killing future leaders). That’s why I get bullied/shunned/lectured every time I say that I never want to be a mother.

    As much as I get sick of hearing the “right to bear arms” nonsense, I think that as womyn, we need to arm ourselves and get ready for war. I honestly believe that sometime in this decade (at the rate that our rights are diminishing) Roe v. Wade could get overturned, funding for reproductive health will be completely cut off, and womyn could be prosecuted just for having miscarriages. Another decade after that, we may find ourselves under the influence of “morality” laws and wearing veils…in America.

  92. Past my expiration date
    Past my expiration date May 18, 2011 at 8:42 am |

    @cat, thank you for posting the link to the Judith Jarvis Thompson piece. I found the piece very interesting.

  93. Rachel
    Rachel May 18, 2011 at 8:49 am |

    This guy is definitely a creeper. Seriously, who would create an organization to antagonize (sp?) a young woman he was with when he wasn’t even sure what happened?

    That being said, I feel semi-confident in saying that not all anti-choice people are actually this bad. A lot of them may be this bad, but not all of them are. This guy is just having an extreme reaction and clearly needs medical help.

  94. insomniac
    insomniac May 18, 2011 at 9:06 am |

    Did a spot of googling around this and according to some message boards this guy has been harrassing his ex, Nani, for a while via twitter, blogging etc. This banner appears to be the latest step in his vile and sinister campaign of stalking. Even the pro-life agency whose logo he is using are trying to get their endorsement removed. In that sense I don’t really see him as a ‘typical pro-lifer’ but an abusive and frankly frightening man who is using every weapon he can to abuse someone. The pro life thing is just the icing on the cake. I can see how someone like Jordan chooses to distance herself from him.

    Reading through the thread has been interesting, in a way having someone post here who holds a different belief has stimulated some useful, strong articulations of the pro-choice stance.

    *Disclaimer that this is my personal viewpoint and is not intended to change anyone’s mind*. I am uncomfortable with the labels ‘pro-choice’ and ‘pro-life’, as two apparently mutually exclusive positions. Just because we are pro choice does this mean that we don’t value life? Isn’t this a false dichotomy set up by the ones who would like to deny women choice? In my own thoughts I think of ‘anti-abortion’ or ‘anti choice’ rather than ‘pro life’. They don’t get to co-opt the moral high ground on this.

    All this about when life begins, zygotes and embryos and souls, I have to confess it is very difficult for me to know where I stand. It’s all so subjective depending on the individual woman. For a woman trying to get pregnant, from the very very beginning she may consider what’s in her womb as a ‘baby’. For a woman unwillingly pregnant, it’s just a bunch of cells. As the enbryo develops, grows a face, grows a brain etc, who is really to say when this ‘becomes’ a ‘person’. How is this a thing you can draw a clear line on? Honestly, just thinking about it ties my brain in a knot. Yes I am pro-choice but I still don’t know if abortion is a choice I could make myself, I can’t know without being in that situaion.

    One thing that I don’t think helps is that some feminists are extremely flippant about abortion and what embryos are, eg ‘just a bunch of cells’, a ‘parasite’ etc, with the implication that they are speaking for Feminism. That may be their personal way of reacting to heavy handed moralising from the ‘other side’, but it could show a lack of respect for women who do grapple with abortion as a very difficult moral decision, or women who may have miscarried at an early stage and do feel that they have ‘lost a baby’.

  95. L
    L May 18, 2011 at 9:06 am |

    Wow. Just wow. He doesn’t even KNOW if she had an abortion or miscarried?!?!

    I’ve always wondered, given all the anti-choice crap that happens in the US (I live in Canada), what happens when a woman has an ectopic pregnancy? Which are actually quite common and require, like, IMMEDIATE surgery to get the embryo out? Do some doctors refuse to do it?

  96. Ledasmom
    Ledasmom May 18, 2011 at 9:07 am |

    “You’ll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar”

    Actually, you catch the most flies with a sticky strip attached to a ceiling fan.

  97. Nightsky
    Nightsky May 18, 2011 at 9:18 am |

    L@93: Ectopic pregnancies pretty clearly fall under the “life of the woman” exception that most anti-abortion types have. (So, clearly, there are SOME circumstances in which antis won’t privilege a fetus above a woman. What’s really important is that she shouldn’t have a say in it.)

  98. preying mantis
    preying mantis May 18, 2011 at 9:20 am |

    “Which are actually quite common and require, like, IMMEDIATE surgery to get the embryo out? Do some doctors refuse to do it?”

    Well, what non-whackaloon doctors tend to do is administer an abortifacient. What whackaloon doctors tend to do (and what Catholic hospitals tend to insist on) is hang out monitoring the embryo until it dies or the tube bursts and then perform immediate surgery to remove the whole tube, because then it’s totes not an abortion but a whole different surgery that just happens to remove the embryo also. Which I guess fools god or something, or maybe the theory is that god is okay with abortions so long as they cost a woman part of her reproductive capacity.

  99. Emma
    Emma May 18, 2011 at 10:14 am |

    Can I just say, wow. Wow in regards to the article and wow in regards to the comments.

    I haven’t been following this blog for long and I’ve never commented before however after reading every single comment I feel I have to say how impressed I am with this community of strong minded individuals with well rounded opinions on these.

    I’ve always been pro choice, well when I say always I mean since it has become an issue that I actively give thought to, given different gender studies and of course, becoming sexually active myself.

    All I want to say is that this community as well as the articles themselves, have really helped me broaden my understanding of feminsim.

    So yeah, thanks.

  100. groggette
    groggette May 18, 2011 at 10:31 am |

    geez, why are you irrational women so angry?

    /snark

  101. samanthab
    samanthab May 18, 2011 at 10:39 am |

    @Nimue, no, the anti-choice movement is most emphatically *not* tied solely to evangelicals. It was the AMA that first aggressively lobbied for the criminalization of abortion in the US at the end of the 19th century. The anti-choice movement came from a whole range of strains in American society. And when Roe v. Wade was decided, it was the Catholic Church that led mobilization efforts against it. It’s really a lot more complex than you’re acknowledging. Obviously, misogyny is the basic guiding force that they all share, but misogyny is hardly confined to evangelicals.

  102. PrettyAmiable
    PrettyAmiable May 18, 2011 at 10:59 am |

    In the event she comes back (because I firmly believe all people who claim to flounce want to see the underwhelming reaction to said flouncing):

    Jordan: Why would it bother you to hear an opposing opinion than yours? Have I attacked you in some way?

    That’s not what I said. What I said is we’ve already heard it and it fails on logical and moral grounds. Sorry.

    And

    Tori: Jordan: I’m sorry to hear you don’t give a shit about actual people.

    This sums that entire line of conversation. So win!

  103. Sheelzebub
    Sheelzebub May 18, 2011 at 11:06 am |

    Obviously, misogyny is the basic guiding force that they all share, but misogyny is hardly confined to evangelicals.

    To piggyback on this, Fultz is a pagan who’s at least been to Unitarian-Universalist church events. Which, considering the fact I attend a UU church (they’re fine with my atheism), really grinds my gears. Doucherockets are in every group, unfortunately. :(

  104. Kxx
    Kxx May 18, 2011 at 11:11 am |

    preying mantis:
    “Which are actually quite common and require, like, IMMEDIATE surgery to get the embryo out? Do some doctors refuse to do it?”

    Well, what non-whackaloon doctors tend to do is administer an abortifacient.What whackaloon doctors tend to do (and what Catholic hospitals tend to insist on) is hang out monitoring the embryo until it dies or the tube bursts and then perform immediate surgery to remove the whole tube, because then it’s totes not an abortion but a whole different surgery that just happens to remove the embryo also.Which I guess fools god or something, or maybe the theory is that god is okay with abortions so long as they cost a woman part of her reproductive capacity.

    I honestly can’t believe that some people are allowed to become doctors. What happened to “first do no harm”?

  105. rain
    rain May 18, 2011 at 11:20 am |

    insomniac

    This banner appears to be the latest step in his vile and sinister campaign of stalking. Even the pro-life agency whose logo he is using are trying to get their endorsement removed. In that sense I don’t really see him as a ‘typical pro-lifer’ but an abusive and frankly frightening man who is using every weapon he can to abuse someone.

    While there is no “typical” pro-lifer, and I’m guessing that’s what you’re saying by putting it in quotes, I don’t think you can say Fultz represents an insignificant element in the forced birth movement, either in numbers or influence.
    Look who was the poster boy for “pro-life” in Canada in Tremblay v. Daigle:
    Will predator’s reign come to an end?

    In 1989, Tremblay tried to prevent his former girlfriend from obtaining an abortion.

    That case went all the way to the Supreme Court. In the years since, he has repeatedly pounded on women, unlawfully confined women, frightened women, threatened women, criminally harassed women and imposed his alarming attentions on women.

    This is a second bid at trussing up Tremblay as a dangerous offender. A Calgary judge declined to do so in 2000, despite 14 assault convictions at that time.

    Four psychiatric experts at that trial testified Tremblay was at high risk to reoffend, describing him variously as a psychopath, narcissistic, paranoid, aggressive and predatory.

    Because anti-choice is a fundamentally misogynist position, the presence of misogynists in the movement is a feature, not a bug. Fultz and Tremblay are not some freaky-deaky exceptions. They are what the movement stands for, control of women.

    And no, being “flippant” about abortion is not disrespecting women who have had miscarriages or who have had a difficult time deciding on abortion. If having a different opinion about what abortion means is disrespectful of others, then women who struggle with having an abortion are disrespecting women who see it as just a medical procedure to remove a bunch of cells or a parasite, the implication being that their moral compass is out of whack because they’re not distraught about their “loss”.

  106. Kxx
    Kxx May 18, 2011 at 11:33 am |

    Flippancy about abortion made a difficult situation that much easier for me than taking it all overly seriously would have. Not that I can speak for anybody else, but I’d much rather be told that I’d just had a useless cluster of cells smaller than my thumbnail flushed out of my body than ZOMGZ YOU’VE JUST KILLED A BABY!!!111. It also helps that the ‘flippant’ response is significantly closer to the truth.

  107. AshleyLynn
    AshleyLynn May 18, 2011 at 11:47 am |

    Bonn: Gosh, I sure hope Jordan didn’t pull or tear something, flouncing that hard.

    RoryBorealis: Classic flounce!

    I kind of want to take his flounce speech, and turn it into part of a melodrama script I’m writing. I’m thinking I might actually win a scholarship if I do.

    I wonder what kind of acronym I can use for the character, since apparently it’s cool now to take names and turn them into organizations.

  108. zsa zsa
    zsa zsa May 18, 2011 at 11:54 am |

    Just wanted to chime in and add that I love all of you! This blog is consistently awesome but I’d rarely expect any other place to have such great comments.

  109. preying mantis
    preying mantis May 18, 2011 at 11:59 am |

    “And no, being “flippant” about abortion is not disrespecting women who have had miscarriages or who have had a difficult time deciding on abortion. If having a different opinion about what abortion means is disrespectful of others, then women who struggle with having an abortion are disrespecting women who see it as just a medical procedure to remove a bunch of cells or a parasite, the implication being that their moral compass is out of whack because they’re not distraught about their “loss”.”

    Pretty much my opinion on the matter. There is no one overarching narrative for How You’re Supposed to Feel About It; that’s the basis for the whole idea of it needing to be left up to the individual woman making the individual decision for herself at that point in time. I mean, seriously? You’re even totally allowed to feel differently about different abortions that you personally have had. It’s a thing that you can do!

    Abortion’s not a big thing for me. It more or less boils down to ejecting a parasite that I don’t want hijacking my body’s resources and endangering my health for its own ends. Anybody who insists that I should feel differently because they need validation for something or other? Can go fuck themselves. A woman who feels differently about abortion? Fully entitled to her own opinions and feelings. Women who lost wanted pregnancies or who felt they had to abort in spite of wishing to carry to term? Have my deepest sympathies. And? Can also feel however they want to about their own situations. A woman who miscarried but doesn’t feel much grief about it shouldn’t be guilted or pressured to perform grief for anyone else’s benefit because she doesn’t. A woman who does shouldn’t be scolded or told to get over it because she does.

    And, you know, there’s a reason strong social support for families and children, accessible healthcare, etc. are feminist issues. A world in which women’s ability to carry to term, give birth, and raise a child safely and affordably is severely limited or reserved for certain groups is not a world in which free choice can be exercised any more than a world in which abortion is illegal and barriers to contraception are high. These things all go hand in hand.

  110. tinfoil hattie
    tinfoil hattie May 18, 2011 at 12:10 pm |

    women who struggle with having an abortion are disrespecting women who see it as just a medical procedure to remove a bunch of cells or a parasite, the implication being that their moral compass is out of whack because they’re not distraught about their “loss”.

    Neither you, nor anyone else, gets to legislate women’s feelings regarding abortion, so get off your high horse. Some women feel a great loss and sorrow when they have an abortion. They’re entitled. In my experience, most women are hesitant to express that sorrow for fear of being a) shamed by anti-abortionists, or b) scoffed at by people who didn’t feel sorrow.

    A given women’s feelings about her own abortion are not a de facto indictment of your feelings about your abortion.

  111. Brandy
    Brandy May 18, 2011 at 12:16 pm |

    tinfoil hattie, the quote you responded to was preceded with:

    And no, being “flippant” about abortion is not disrespecting women who have had miscarriages or who have had a difficult time deciding on abortion. If having a different opinion about what abortion means is disrespectful of others, then

    (emphasis mine)

    I don’t think you disagree with each other?

  112. speedbudget
    speedbudget May 18, 2011 at 12:21 pm |

    As soon as men can gestate a fetus, they can have a say.

  113. Kristen J.
    Kristen J. May 18, 2011 at 12:21 pm |

    As an aside, I think this thread is further evidence that we should “rebrand” the “pro-life” movement as the “forced-birth” movement.

  114. zuzu
    zuzu May 18, 2011 at 1:46 pm |

    Aw, Jordan flounced before I could ask her how she feels about contraception. Because that one’s always the tell.

    You’d think if they really cared about the baybeez, they’d want to put contraceptives in the water and would be giving out full-body condoms in elementary schools.

    But she might do a flounce-and-bounce; we’ve seen quite a few of those recently.

  115. umami
    umami May 18, 2011 at 2:42 pm |

    I am uncomfortable with the labels ‘pro-choice’ and ‘pro-life’, as two apparently mutually exclusive positions. Just because we are pro choice does this mean that we don’t value life? Isn’t this a false dichotomy set up by the ones who would like to deny women choice? In my own thoughts I think of ‘anti-abortion’ or ‘anti choice’ rather than ‘pro life’. They don’t get to co-opt the moral high ground on this.

    I am totally in agreement with this. Life is a great thing to be pro! Loads of people claim on surveys to be “pro-life” who are actually pro-choice when their views are examined (ie they’re “abortion should be legal, but i wouldn’t have one.” types.) But they want to call themselves pro-life, because it just sounds so nice.

    “Pro-life” is terrific propaganda and we shouldn’t let the forced-birthers own it. Look what happens when their preferred policies are actually implemented. Pro-lifers are objectively pro-death.

    (Also, I am flabbergasted that on this thread of all threads, someone chose to come along and argue that men should get a say in whether “their” fetus is aborted. You’d think just reading the OP would cure anyone of that notion forever.)

  116. sabrina
    sabrina May 18, 2011 at 3:13 pm |

    L, ectopic pregnancies are one of the reasons that the issue with conscience clauses has come up. Under current US law a hospital can refuse to do an abortion if they are uncomfortable with it, however they must refer the woman to another hospital in order to access the procedure to save her life. One of the anti-choice pieces of legislation extends the conscience clause to allow them to not even refer the woman to another hospital. Our own doctors are literally okay with murdering us because of their fetus fetish

  117. peggyluwho
    peggyluwho May 18, 2011 at 3:39 pm |

    Hey Everyone, We’re letting that troll distract us from our true life purpose – antagonizing Jill.

    Focus people!

  118. Anne
    Anne May 18, 2011 at 5:12 pm |

    Just thought I’d put this up here. Found it on another site:

    http://www.fortheloveofnani.com/

  119. MacGuffin
    MacGuffin May 18, 2011 at 6:29 pm |

    Jill, this post is exactly why I love you.
    <3<3<3<3

  120. haley
    haley May 19, 2011 at 1:52 am |

    We need to stop calling pro-lifers “pro-life”. I think that term gives undeserved and unsupportable credit to that movement.

    The fetus lobby and its supporters say they value life and I believe it, for them simply meeting the basic definition of living (in regards to humans)…i.e heartbeat and breathing is enough. The quality of life is of no value to the fetus lobby supporters.

    Yes, a fetus is a human life, but no, I don’t value its life equally to that of the mother. Why? Because I value the intersection of life and Complexity. A full grown human being is more complex, not simply in biological development, but in the vast array of experiences, emotions, knowledge, aspirations and resources from said person.

    To say that the life of a fetus is equal to a woman’s life means that you don’t actually care about the qualities that make someone a person. Also, giving rights to a fetus at the expense of the woman says nothing about the quality of life that fetus
    will have, whereas the quality of life of that woman may be altered towards the worse.

  121. Bagelsan
    Bagelsan May 19, 2011 at 4:03 am |

    Girls, girls, we are being entirely inappropriate. Sure, maybe poor Nani miscarried and didn’t actually have an abortion at all, but her stalker abuser creeper fetus-daddy still should have a say in what her ladybits get up to! Was the embryo dead, and the body naturally rejected it? Maybe! …And that’s totally unacceptable! Dead or not, that tiny glob of deceased cells deserves all the rights of critters that actually have functioning metabolisms!

    And in honor of that wee dead baby booger, and the not-actually-a-daddy who loved its invisible zygote corpse so dearly, I propose that we have the acronym “F.U.L.T.Z.” stand for “Fill Uteri with Lots of Tiny Zombies” — because just because it’s dead (and the laws of Nature and entropy and human decency demand its expulsion) doesn’t mean we shouldn’t cork its mom’s vagina anyway and pretend it’s still animate. Yes, I speak for the zombie babies because they can’t speak for themselves (because they don’t have brains yet, and therefore cannot request braaaaiiins.)

    That’s right, I’m officially pro-Undeath. Suck it pro-lifers, I’m holier than all y’all.

  122. Bagelsan
    Bagelsan May 19, 2011 at 4:09 am |

    Using that word makes it sound like we’re evil-masterminds of the new world order.

    …Also, I promise I have never ever accused pro-lifers of being masterminds. In fact, if any of us on this blog have accidentally given the impression that we believe that, please accept our most sincere and total retraction.

  123. Yonmei
    Yonmei May 19, 2011 at 4:37 am |

    Insomniac: *Disclaimer that this is my personal viewpoint and is not intended to change anyone’s mind*. I am uncomfortable with the labels ‘pro-choice’ and ‘pro-life’, as two apparently mutually exclusive positions. Just because we are pro choice does this mean that we don’t value life?

    I use “pro-life” as the term for the anti-choice movement because it is their chosen name for themselves and, while I think it’s horrifyingly ironic – prolifers do not actually value life in any measureable way – I am not interested in getting into an argument over their name for their own movement, though I’m happy to point out the dark humour in prolife terrorism, prolife murderers, and prolife politicians who oppose healthcare.

    Obviously, being pro-choice means we value life more than they do.

  124. Odin
    Odin May 19, 2011 at 7:01 am |

    Regarding whether we use terms like pro-life, anti-choice, etc… I’ve lately been using the term “anti-legal-abortion” and “anti-legal-abortion-access” to refer to both individuals and groups who wish to make abortion illegal or inaccessible, because it’s fairly neutral (I’ve used it around several self-identified pro-lifers, who didn’t object), strictly factual, and doesn’t falsely credit the anti-* movement with preventing large numbers of abortions (credit that currently belongs with groups like Planned Parenthood and other sex-ed and contraception-providing groups.)

  125. preying mantis
    preying mantis May 19, 2011 at 7:57 am |

    “Regarding whether we use terms like pro-life, anti-choice, etc… I’ve lately been using the term “anti-legal-abortion” and “anti-legal-abortion-access””

    I’ve just been calling them fetus-humpers.

  126. Yonmei
    Yonmei May 19, 2011 at 8:14 am |

    Odin: I’ve lately been using the term “anti-legal-abortion” and “anti-legal-abortion-access”

    Oh, when I want to annoy prolifers, I call them pro-abortion, pointing out that their movement systematically opposes every method proved successful of reducing the abortion rate: that countries with prolife regimes tend to have higher abortion rates, higher maternal morbidity and mortality rates, and even higher infant mortality rates.

    But “anti-legal-abortion” is also perfectly descriptive. As is “anti-choice”.

  127. Lynnsey
    Lynnsey May 19, 2011 at 9:03 am |

    Bagelsan: invisible zygote corpse

    This is sooooo the name of my new punk band.

  128. alessa
    alessa May 19, 2011 at 9:12 am |

    “It’s my belief that fathers should have a say regarding pregnancy. Women have all the power when it comes to pregnancy. The men get no say when a woman wants to go and have an abortion without the say of the father. I believe that is wrong because men are 50 percent of the result of the pregnancy. They should have an equal right to their unborn child and decisions regarding it.”

    This is the most terrifying, horrifying thing I have heard in a very long time. The fact that there is even 1 person who thinks like this is.. Oh god, if he had said that when I was around him I don’t think I would have been able to hold in my rage. I would have been shaking with anger.

  129. Support Nani
    Support Nani May 19, 2011 at 4:10 pm |

    Please send in your messages (fortheloveofnani@gmail.com) we as a community need to come out in a big way to support this innocent woman who is going through a difficult time. http://www.fortheloveofnani.com/messages.php

  130. Bagelsan
    Bagelsan May 19, 2011 at 4:47 pm |

    Bagelsan: invisible zygote corpse

    This is sooooo the name of my new punk band.

    Well, since it’s “invisible” the album cover art will be pretty easy! ;p But seriously, let the pro-lifers design the T-shirts; those guys with signs waving their dead baby photoshops are pretty hardcore imaginative.

  131. LeftSidePositive
    LeftSidePositive May 19, 2011 at 7:40 pm |

    Bagelsan:
    Girls, girls, we are being entirely inappropriate. Sure, maybe poor Nani miscarried and didn’t actually have an abortion at all, but her stalker abuser creeper fetus-daddy still should have a say in what her ladybits get up to! Was the embryo dead, and the body naturally rejected it? Maybe! …And that’s totally unacceptable! Dead or not, that tiny glob of deceased cells deserves all the rights of critters that actually have functioning metabolisms!

    And in honor of that wee dead baby booger, and the not-actually-a-daddy who loved its invisible zygote corpse so dearly, I propose that we have the acronym “F.U.L.T.Z.” stand for “Fill Uteri with Lots of Tiny Zombies” — because just because it’s dead (and the laws of Nature and entropy and human decency demand its expulsion) doesn’t mean we shouldn’t cork its mom’s vagina anyway and pretend it’s still animate. Yes, I speak for the zombie babies because they can’t speak for themselves (because they don’t have brains yet, and therefore cannot request braaaaiiins.)

    That’s right, I’m officially pro-Undeath. Suck it pro-lifers, I’m holier than all y’all.

    I love you I love you I love you. That’s all I want to say.

  132. Links of Great Interest: 5/20/11 — The Hathor Legacy

    [...] From SunlessNick: Pro-lifer uses billboard to continue stalking/harassing [...]

  133. jayne
    jayne May 20, 2011 at 4:14 pm |

    I’d be willing to overlook the hypocrisy of anti-choicer’s viewpoints……just as soon as every single supporter of those policies donates a kidney to a viable human being in need of one, donates a portion of their income to foster agencies, and becomes a foster parent to a child. They always want to force women to be held accountable to their standards, yet I see so few of them actually give of themselves or their money to assist the unwanted in our society.

  134. Dang
    Dang May 21, 2011 at 8:10 am |

    L:
    Wow. Just wow. He doesn’t even KNOW if she had an abortion or miscarried?!?!

    He knew. She told him.
    It’s not her fault he refused to believe her.

  135. Lily
    Lily May 24, 2011 at 8:25 pm |

    This man Greg Fultz has a history of being a predator and a liar.
    Now he and his supporters (or just him) are attacking anyone who calls what he did harassment or stalkinig or abuse. There are some who say he has done nothing wrong because she murdered her baby (by having a miscarriage). Anyone who disagree gets attacked and such. Heck they even kept attacking a poster because they dare be from Florida and another because they were from OK. They say it is this Greg Fultz who is posting though. http://www.topix.net/forum/source/alamogordo-daily-news/TNKT2P0L7TL6M52P9/p38
    On another similar thread one poster claims she has dumped any of her friends if they have ever had an abortion.
    http://www.topix.net/forum/source/alamogordo-daily-news/THOT964P1OT37KU2P/p3
    Some real class acts there.

  136. DaisyDeadhead
    DaisyDeadhead May 27, 2011 at 2:26 pm |

    “If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.”

    Just a correction: This was originally a statement by Florynce Kennedy, not Andrea Dworkin, although Dworkin quoted her often.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florynce_Kennedy

  137. castallare
    castallare June 7, 2011 at 4:45 am |

    Wouldn’t it totally creep him out if a bunch of people from all over the place created a fake persona from which to begin contacting him through his widely-varied contact sources, with an uncomfortable amount of personal information to recreate the sensation of being stalked?

    It’s almost too bad that he’s such a worthless pile of shit; otherwise, I might pause to consider taking time out of my life to help terrorize this asshole for fun. I feel like he’s not even worth the energy to take up a collection for a local hitman to debilitate him and leave him on some train tracks.

  138. María
    María June 7, 2011 at 7:19 pm |

    Why don’t you ban these trolls?? Surely we have better things to do….

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