35 comments for “Hey girl.

  1. Annaleigh
    April 30, 2012 at 3:36 pm

    If the PUAs like “spontaneity” so much, and think it will get them what they want, then they shouldn’t complain or be surprised when women spontaneously combust in fury because they refuse to treat us like human beings.

  2. igglanova
    April 30, 2012 at 4:39 pm

    I swear, every time I read more about the world of PUAs it feels like going through the looking glass into the shallowest, most boring universe ever conceived. I mean, studying up this hard to bed as many strangers as you can has to eat up a lot of spare time that could have been spent on reading, researching, writing music, hanging with friends, playing Starcraft, what have you. Do they have any other interests at all? Wouldn’t those interests suffer terribly when their time allotments are edged out by the constant dickish scheming?

    I have a theory as to why these men are so often passed over for dates, and it is that they are in fact the least interesting people in the world.

  3. Anon21
    April 30, 2012 at 4:45 pm

    the least interesting people in the world.

    “I don’t always interact with other human beings, but when I do, I prefer to let weirdo strangers plan those interactions for me.”

  4. samanthab
    April 30, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    It’s funny as hell from a distance, but seriously, this is what ladies should be expecting to find in their inboxes? At the end of a long day, I could see myself crying over that shit.

  5. LC
    April 30, 2012 at 6:39 pm

    Well played, Anon21.

    I actually read a bunch of PUA stuff years ago – before The Game even came out. It was perversely fascinating. As the author says in that first link, negging is actually effective if used well. People defend themselves if they think they are being viewed contrary to the image they have of themselves. It’s not magic, though, and it isn’t some sort of weird free pass to sex with women. (It also works perfectly well on men. Boil it down and the classic schoolyard, “What are you, chicken?” is a neg.)

    But what was most fascinating and horrible were some of the books that discussed all the social pressure women were under to be nice, to be pretty, to be accommodating, including the way women are deliberately undercut according to self-confidence, and that these were therefore tools to be used. It was weird because rather than the gender-essentialist crap you see so often, it was a fairly decent analysis of cultural pressure and then a completely amoral choice to leverage that for manipulation purposes.

    Creeped me right out, and reminded me far more of guides to being a good seller – find their image of themselves and then work on that through flattery and challenge until buying what you’re selling re-affirms their opinion of themselves.

  6. April 30, 2012 at 8:42 pm

    I think xkcd covered negging fairly perfectly:
    http://xkcd.com/1027/

  7. librarygoose
    April 30, 2012 at 8:46 pm

    I think xkcd covered negging fairly perfectly:

    Oh jeez, I read the whole thread from that comic when it happened. The privilege denial was deafening.

  8. igglanova
    April 30, 2012 at 9:22 pm

    I always hear people say that negging ‘works’ because it successfully irritates people into defending themselves, but nothing so far has assuaged my doubt that it works in terms of getting reluctant women to have sex with you. I guess it only works as part of the whole manipulation package? And if your targets are already insecure enough to think their worth is validated by sleeping with just any douchey ol’ guy?

    At any rate, the people most likely to fall for these boilerplate types of manipulations are not the high status perfect 10 dreamboats who these wannabe PUAs think they deserve (and who all the advertising suggests you’re gonna bag). From what I can tell, PUA tactics will only succeed at manipulating people who are already vulnerable, insecure, and of lower status. That is, the type of people who feel a need for male validation, and who don’t already have a ton of dating options with high-status, attractive men who don’t treat them like dog shit.

    I mean absolutely no offense to people of lower social status or who have issues with self esteem – hello, welcome, you are among friends here – but if a guy’s trying to shore up your masculinity points by flaunting his ‘conquests’ (barf)…those aren’t the people who look that impressive as his arm candy.

  9. May 1, 2012 at 12:49 am

    How is the “Nice headband, bitch” thing a neg again? It just sounds like garden variety trolling to me. The art of negging is too intricate, for truly.

    Anyway, at the end of the day, the entire PUA thing is just a product that’s being sold. I suppose it helps some shy guys come out of their shells (maybe? I live in hope…?), but it also sounds like the sort of thing you’d engage in if you’re already bitter as hell and want to confirm all of your stereotypes about women being dumb bitches, or whatever.

    I can’t really get worked up about it, though. People have always thought of sex as a conquest, nothing new there. This is just another way of packaging and selling it.

  10. Marksman2010
    May 1, 2012 at 2:06 am

    Was there ever a thread in here to cover to book, “I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell” by Tucker Max? Apparently the book sold fairly well. He has a second volume, “Assholes Finish First.” And I believe there’s a third, “Hilarity Ensues.”

    From the reviews, it seems his books must be a PUA manual of sorts. And apparently his writing sells very well–which leads me to question the worth of humankind.

  11. Angie unduplicated
    May 1, 2012 at 7:47 am

    The ultimate indictment of the shallowness of male thinking is that so many websites are devoted to the manipulation of female sexuality, and so few are dedicated to the manipulation of power brokers, financiers, etc for the laudable purpose of serious economic change. This is where social and psychological hacking really could get interesting.

  12. ohplease
    May 1, 2012 at 8:19 am

    which leads me to question the worth of humankind. douchey frat boys.

    FTFY.

  13. Athenia
    May 1, 2012 at 8:30 am

    You know what completely solves negging? Meeting a woman who already thinks you’re sexy and wants to bone you. No negging required.

  14. Rob in CT
    May 1, 2012 at 8:37 am

    Heh, I immediately thought of the xkcd comic on this one.

    First, setting aside whether or not it works, using such tactics makes you a gigantic asshole.

    Second, I doubt it works nearly as well as the advocates of assholishness pretend.

  15. EG
    May 1, 2012 at 8:42 am

    At any rate, the people most likely to fall for these boilerplate types of manipulations are not the high status perfect 10 dreamboats who these wannabe PUAs think they deserve (and who all the advertising suggests you’re gonna bag). From what I can tell, PUA tactics will only succeed at manipulating people who are already vulnerable, insecure, and of lower status.

    Remember thought that for these assholes, the only marker of “high status” is looks, and plenty of gorgeous women are emotionally vulnerable and insecure with low self-esteem.

  16. LC
    May 1, 2012 at 10:28 am

    igglanova, it “works” as part of a general manipulation tactic, like selling a product. It’s not a magic cheat code to sex. (Although it does seem PUAs talk about it like it is.)

    I think there’s enough pressure on women that male approval, a relationship, and fuckability are the only measures that matter that anyone is vulnerable. Self-esteem doesn’t automatically track with looks and that’s the main thing these people are searching for.

    I would also assume there’s a lot of predator theory here – test boundaries and tactics and move on from people who aren’t showing signs of being vulnerable to those tactics.

    It’s all pretty evil, ultimately.

    (And again, there’s nothing gender-essentialist about this. You need different specifics for men in our culture, but the basic “play on their insecurities to push them in the direction you want” works. Hell, the whole issue of anxious masculinity is pretty much text book of the approach.)

  17. Codi
    May 1, 2012 at 10:45 am

    When my dad warned me about the “creepy things men would say and do to get me in bed”, I just thought he was being overly dramatic. I had no idea.

  18. Marksman2010
    May 1, 2012 at 10:58 am

    FTFY.

    Thank you. Your specificity is dead-on.

    I wish we could start another frat boy-bashing thread…

    I had to work with a few, and my headache has yet to subside.

  19. May 1, 2012 at 11:05 pm

    I started to read ‘The Game’ when a free copy was sent to the radio station. I only lasted a chapter or two. The particular line which had me put the book down was the narrator talking about getting the phone number of a woman who was a ‘Playmate of the Year.’ I could not imagine what kind of person places value on something like that. Not that a Playmate of the Year couldn’t be a wonderful person, it’s just I can’t imagine what is so wonderful to the ego about being able to think, ‘oh that girl I had sex with last night, Hugh Hefner thinks she’s really hot.’ The mind boggles with the motivations for this type of behavior. I’m not saying I don’t get the motivation for having a lot of sex, but I don’t see the importance of the ‘conquest’ especially when said conquest is built on a load of bullshit.
    If your sole goal in life is to screw as many woman as possible, surely you should just become a Republican senator.

  20. LotusBecca
    May 2, 2012 at 2:06 am

    What a bunch of dishonest, callous, manipulative assholes. I have trouble understanding what would motivate anyone to live like these PUAs, rather than building real relationships with women based off open communication and shared values. I guess some people are just afraid of actually living.

  21. Marksman2010
    May 2, 2012 at 5:35 am

    I have trouble understanding what would motivate anyone to live like these PUAs, rather than building real relationships with women based off open communication and shared values.

    I think it’s a matter of manipulation–using people to get what they want from them. I guarantee if we analyzed other aspects of the PUA’s life, we’d witness other atrocious behaviors. These are the same types of assholes who will cut your throat, causing the loss of your job so they can be promoted. Then they smile with pride as you box up the items in your desk and walk away, unemployed and uninsured. What an accomplishment!

  22. ohplease
    May 2, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    I wish we could start another frat boy-bashing thread…

    Sorry, forgot the caveat: not ALL frat boys, just the ones who are Tucker Max and his fans.

  23. dead
    May 2, 2012 at 10:29 pm

    @igglanova

    I mean, studying up this hard to bed as many strangers as you can has to eat up a lot of spare time that could have been spent on reading, researching, writing music, hanging with friends, playing Starcraft, what have you. Do they have any other interests at all? Wouldn’t those interests suffer terribly when their time allotments are edged out by the constant dickish scheming?

    I can tell you from experience that yes, the social engineering research necessary to employ PUA tactics on a moments notice and respond to social cues fast enough to reply quickly with appropriate responses in PUA fashion is an EXTRAORDINARILY large amount of effort. Over time it “gets easier” because you spend your time staying current on new tricks as women learn the old ones rather than starting from scratch each time but yea, its a ton of work.

    Almost the same amount of work as getting to know somebody well enough to ask them for casual sex without offending them, except that takes way more time and is much less effective. Obviously attempting to start and maintain a relationship is MUCH more work than either of those but that’s not really the goal of PUA and also the rewards of that are totally different.

    Part of my job requires me to socially engineer people to do what I want. We have methods we research about people and a lot of it looks almost identical to PUA only their goal is to get laid and mine is to extract information most of the time but part of the reason I’m not a PUA in my “off hours” is strictly the amount of work involved. At least after all the work I put into a target at my job, I get a paycheck. Working that hard all for a “maybe” in the sac later is just … well frankly I don’t know how people get motivated over that, I’d much rather just say “meh, forget it” and enjoy my beer in the corner or play Starcraft2 or something.

    Tho, to their credit, most of my friends who spend the time and effort to gather the tools of PUA do get laid a hell of a lot more often than me

    oh, and as for those who say PUAs are “bad people” and don’t understand why somebody would not want “relationships with women based off open communication and shared values”. One of the answers is because a good PUA can have both. Most relationships take a massive amount of time to earn and even more to maintain weather or not they be romantic. As anybody, male or female will tell you about having to put in “maintenance” into a relationship of any kind; a) people are rubix cubes who are anything but transparent in what they want and some times the effort in unscrambling their messages is fucking murderous; and b) sometimes rather than dealing with all that, you just want to get laid.

  24. librarygoose
    May 2, 2012 at 11:30 pm

    Yes, why bother treating women like they’re people when you can just button-mash the vulnerability keypad till you get a critical?

    Also, fun times is being the opposite of the “wing man” and bashing guys trying to neg my friends. One dude pulled out a laser pointer (while trying to ignore my comments about said negging) and me and my sister simultaneously said, “Do we fucking look like kittens?”

  25. LotusBecca
    May 3, 2012 at 5:09 am

    oh, and as for those who say PUAs are “bad people” and don’t understand why somebody would not want “relationships with women based off open communication and shared values”. One of the answers is because a good PUA can have both. Most relationships take a massive amount of time to earn and even more to maintain weather or not they be romantic. As anybody, male or female will tell you about having to put in “maintenance” into a relationship of any kind; a) people are rubix cubes who are anything but transparent in what they want and some times the effort in unscrambling their messages is fucking murderous; and b) sometimes rather than dealing with all that, you just want to get laid.

    Well, to each their own, but people aren’t that hard for me to understand. Maybe I’m gifted with more insight than most, but all I have to do to really understand people is understand myself because I’ve found all people have the same basic biology, emotions, and needs. Maybe PUAs have such a hard time understanding people because they are so committed to a life based off manipulation and dishonesty that they’ve lost the ability to tell up from down. I mean I’ve developed more authentic connections with people talking to them at the bus stop for fifteen minutes than apparently ever occur in the lives of PUAs (based of their descriptions of their lives).

    I guess “getting laid” is a need for a lot of people. But if I wanted to have a sexual experience with a fantasy object I was completely emotionally disconnected to I would probably just watch porn and masturbate or have sex with a blow up doll. That seems a lot easier and accomplishes the same thing. When I interact with people i prefer to actually, you know, interact with people.

  26. EG
    May 3, 2012 at 9:59 am

    sometimes rather than dealing with all that, you just want to get laid.

    Maybe they should spend some time figuring out why women don’t want to fuck them, then, instead of being manipulative shits.

  27. dead
    May 4, 2012 at 2:38 am

    @lotusBecca

    Well, to each their own, but people aren’t that hard for me to understand. Maybe I’m gifted with more insight than most, but all I have to do to really understand people is understand myself because I’ve found all people have the same basic biology, emotions, and needs. Maybe PUAs have such a hard time understanding people because they are so committed to a life based off manipulation and dishonesty that they’ve lost the ability to tell up from down. I mean I’ve developed more authentic connections with people talking to them at the bus stop for fifteen minutes than apparently ever occur in the lives of PUAs (based of their descriptions of their lives).

    or maybe (and please don’t take this as an insult or an “I don’t believe you”, I’m attempting to be very logical about this next comment and NOT pick a fight), you just THINK that’s how those interactions have gone. Maybe all of those reactions were genuine, or maybe none of them were and you were humored. Maybe you were practice for people working on specific skills (I know I practice things “in the wild” for my job), or maybe you simply have only met a small subset of people compared to the larger sociological pool. Again, I don’t mean to pose insults, but in my experience, the person claiming to “just understand” people or to be “just gifted with intuition”, is usually the most trusting, the easiest to con, and the most arrogant person of the bunch.

    For what its worth, most of the easiest “marks” in my trade are people who pride themselves on “being able to tell a good person when they see them”.

    I guess “getting laid” is a need for a lot of people. But if I wanted to have a sexual experience with a fantasy object I was completely emotionally disconnected to I would probably just watch porn and masturbate or have sex with a blow up doll. That seems a lot easier and accomplishes the same thing.

    as somebody who has done all of these things (well, except the blowup doll), no it really isn’t the same. And no strings attached partners are wonderful to have but extraordinarily difficult to find. I could easily see why somebody would want to practice a method to “cheat” the usually high amount of time and commitment it takes to secure one. Especially if they are socially awkward to begin with.

    @EG

    Maybe they should spend some time figuring out why women don’t want to fuck them, then, instead of being manipulative shits.

    Ironically, PUA methods are most often used by people who have spent considerable amounts of their lives trying to figure out “why women don’t want to fuck them”. Many of them never figure out why, so they turn to a faster, more manageable, often cheaper alternative.

    And lets face it, some of us (by us I mean all people) will spend our entire lives trying to figure out why the doesn’t want to fuck us, and many of us will never figure it out, we just give up and find a way to mute the sexual urges instead.

  28. Scott
    May 4, 2012 at 10:07 am

    I have not read all the comments, so I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned this.

    A friend of mine had downloaded some PUA torrent out of curiosity and I was digging through it. There were articles about “How to have threesomes” with multiple techniques to subverting a woman’s consent. One method involved instructing a friend to come in at just the right time, casually come over, and start kissing the woman’s body while keeping her face occupied so she won’t feel like she has a moment to “snap out of it” and object. The ebook was filled with extremely manipulative techniques for initiating sexual activities that the woman might otherwise object to if asked.

    If you go to the Pirate Bay and search for “pick up artist” or something like that, you should be able to find the torrent. It contains tons of ebooks, audio, video, etc. I’d like to dig through it all and compile an article about the worst-of-the-worst and expose that it isn’t just the ads that are abhorrent, but the actual media that they are selling is rape how-to.

  29. May 4, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    Ironically, PUA methods are most often used by people who have spent considerable amounts of their lives trying to figure out “why women don’t want to fuck them”. Many of them never figure out why, so they turn to a faster, more manageable, often cheaper alternative.

    Exactly…CHEAPER…clearly these PUA’s are people whose time isn’t worth a whole hell of a lot. If they put as much time into mastering a trade, a skill, or an art, they would probably find it just as easy to pick up shallow conventionally good looking women. At least under that scenario, if they decide that they are no longer interested in a shallow life of serial het-bedding, they have something left to show for it.

  30. LotusBecca
    May 4, 2012 at 6:05 pm

    I’m attempting to be very logical about this next comment and NOT pick a fight), you just THINK that’s how those interactions have gone. Maybe all of those reactions were genuine, or maybe none of them were and you were humored.

    All or none thinking is not logical–it’s simplistic, rigid, and unrealistic. Real life is ambiguous. Which still doesn’t mean that people are Rubik’s cubes and the only way to have good relations with them is either through Sisyphean effort or constant, extreme manipulation. If those are the only ways you know how to interact with people, all I can say is, I’m sorry.

    The person claiming to “just understand” people or to be “just gifted with intuition”, is usually the most trusting, the easiest to con, and the most arrogant person of the bunch.

    Stop negging me.

    For what its worth, most of the easiest “marks” in my trade are people who pride themselves on “being able to tell a good person when they see them”.

    You know, I actually somewhat agree with what you’re getting at here. I’ve been working as a telephone fundraiser for a year, and it’s true that trusting people are easier to get money from, and I feel very guilty about taking advantage of them. In our society based off domination and competition, trusting people are often exploited by unscrupulous businessmen, authoritarian religious leaders, PUAs, and other related assholes. This doesn’t justify manipulative tactics, however, nor does it justify a stance of preemptive paranoia just because there are a lot of the aforementioned manipulative assholes out there.

    And no strings attached partners are wonderful to have but extraordinarily difficult to find.

    LOL. What? OK, well speak for yourself. Are you not familiar with parties, dance clubs, personal ads, sex workers, etc? Plenty of people out there looking for no strings attached partners. Now I know lots of people do have trouble finding compatible sexual partners. But the answer isn’t manipulation. The answer is just putting yourself out there more and being more honest so that it’s easier for compatible people to find you.

  31. Mxe354
    May 4, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    @Scott

    A friend of mine had downloaded some PUA torrent out of curiosity and I was digging through it. There were articles about “How to have threesomes” with multiple techniques to subverting a woman’s consent.

    *shudders*
    Are you fucking kidding me?
    @dead

    I could easily see why somebody would want to practice a method to “cheat” the usually high amount of time and commitment it takes to secure one. Especially if they are socially awkward to begin with.

    In any case, that “high amount of time and commitment” trumps being a manipulative asshat any day. Even if they’re socially awkward. I’d rather get to know a woman as a person and have meaningful, honest, sincere interactions with her instead of trying to impress her constantly and manipulate her into liking me.

  32. dead
    May 7, 2012 at 4:41 am

    @lotusbecca

    LOL. What? OK, well speak for yourself. Are you not familiar with parties, dance clubs, personal ads, sex workers, etc?

    if by sex workers you mean people who sell sex (as apposed to exotic dancers), that trade is a) illegal in most of the world and b) comes with host of other problems. Personal ads and online hookup sites very rarely produce results for men and maybe I’m just ill informed but I was always led to believe that directly asking a woman for sex whom you just met at a party or dance club is considered very rude and likely to get you punched in the face.

    I would assume these environments make things quite easy for women to attract no strings partners but the same is certainly not true for most hetero men as far as I know.

    @scott & @Fat Steve
    Most PUA’s I’m aware of are not “uninteresting people” with no hobbies or skills to put “time into”, and frankly suggesting that any hobby will result in an increase in social activity and thus sexual opportunity is plainly false from my perspective.

    Using myself as an example, I am typically careful to almost NEVER discuss my hobbies or my job (which sucks cus I’m kind of a work a holic) with people in casual conversation; I have done so in the past only to have people exhibit extremely fearful reactions. Almost 100% of what makes up my free time and work day / night does not encourage people to “open up” to me more, it makes them want to go home and lock themselves in their bedrooms.

  33. EG
    May 13, 2012 at 12:53 pm

    I would assume these environments make things quite easy for women to attract no strings partners

    Sure, except for the fact of having to worry about whether or not some random dude you’ve just met will respect the boundaries you set down or whether he’ll rape you, it’s dead easy. We’re so lucky.

    Almost 100% of what makes up my free time and work day / night does not encourage people to “open up” to me more, it makes them want to go home and lock themselves in their bedrooms.

    Maybe that’s a reasonable reaction.

  34. DonnaL
    May 13, 2012 at 1:32 pm

    Almost 100% of what makes up my free time and work day / night does not encourage people to “open up” to me more, it makes them want to go home and lock themselves in their bedrooms.

    I really don’t want to know. Because I can’t think of too many things that don’t involve torturing small animals that evoke that sort of reaction.

  35. Li
    May 13, 2012 at 1:54 pm

    I really don’t want to know. Because I can’t think of too many things that don’t involve torturing small animals that evoke that sort of reaction.

    Clown. *shudder*

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