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Jill has been blogging for Feministe since 2005.
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427 Responses

  1. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 27, 2012 at 4:03 pm |

    Eighth, I don’t really know what else, except all of these discussions are part of the reason why I am extremely hesitant to reproduce.

    Some of us women marry women instead ;D

    Seriously, though. I know we’ll never earn as much as a m/f couple on average, just because we’re women, but fuck it; at least I don’t have to nag and moan just to have my partner pull…maybe…a third… of what the house upkeep requires. I can only imagine straight women’s plight.

  2. Lasciel
    Lasciel June 27, 2012 at 4:25 pm |

    I will never understand why anyone does regular housework in the first place. What’s the point of cleaning things when they’re just going to get dirty again anyway? Just let them get gross and then whoever breaks and can’t take the filth first will clean it. This has always worked out great for me.

    Of course the same rhetoric can’t be applied to childcare… that would be abusive.

    It’s encouraging that the split on childcare time by gender isn’t as wide as the one on housework… But I would be interested in knowing how that time is broken down. Playing with the kids is hardly a chore but changing diapers and making bottles is. Gee, I wonder which one men are doing more of…

  3. Dan
    Dan June 27, 2012 at 4:31 pm |

    We were talking about this in the context of Sen. Brown’s recent “Look, I love women!” ads (presumably designed to counter his contemptible Blunt amendment shenanigans).

    I commented that I liked the ad where they talk about what he actually DID (laundry, dishes, got kids ready, etc) better than the “Oh he supported me” ad, because actions louder than words, blah blah.

    And a friend said, “Didn’t your Dad do those things?” Which, of course, he did. He was the primary doer of such things for the first 5 years of my life. But then suddenly we stopped in the middle of the conversation and looked at each other.

    “So basically he wants credit for being a minimally acceptable parent and partner.”
    “…Yup, guess that’s about it.”
    “Sad that it’s notable, isn’t it?
    “Yep”

    So I’d add:

    8) Dudes, get it the fuck together. If you want to be a father, BE A FATHER. If you want to be partnered, BE PARTNERED. You should not need to be “rewarded” for these things. You do not get a cookie for taking your kids to the park, you’re supposed to WANT to take your kids to the park. You do not get a cookie for doing the laundry, that’s part of BEING AN ADULT.

  4. BalancingJane
    BalancingJane June 27, 2012 at 4:40 pm |

    Yes! Yes to pretty much all of your points, especially:

    First, don’t marry or move in or reproduce with men unless they pull their own weight.

    That means that we have to have conversations (often tough conversations) about what we think our lives will look like as a couple. We know its important to talk about bank accounts and finances, but I don’t think enough people talk about the division of labor and parenting philosophies as part of their “getting serious” talk.

    Second, don’t just let things fall into “natural” patterns.

    I think this is especially important for the first few months of parenting, which is both when some of the most exhausting and dramatic shifts to your life happen and when precedents are set for your parenting styles. I don’t think staying up all night and then juggling bottles and diapers with work and housecleaning comes natural to anyone, but there are so many cultural stereotypes out there that if we don’t actively have conversations to make sure that this work is shared, it will fall on the woman.

    Seventh, men are not useless, nor are they idiots or chimps. They are just as capable of being nurturing and loving and caring and aware as women are, so let’s also give them the chance to demonstrate that.

    Yes, yes, yes. Gender roles have to become less rigid in all directions if there is going to be a more equitable sharing of responsibilities. I think it’s also really important that we work to de-gender children’s perceptions of roles. When little boys can play with dolls and kitchen sets and little girls can play with blocks that aren’t pink-washed, we’ll know that we’re moving in the right direction.

  5. alynn
    alynn June 27, 2012 at 4:48 pm |

    Re: point 5, it’s a big pet peeve of mine when friends who have kids will say their male partner is “babysitting” the kids. Um, no…they’re his. That’s not babysitting.

    I never know how to squash that language though. I don’t call them out on it usually but I would never phrase it that way myself. Maybe next time I’ll just say, “Why do you call it babysitting?” and see what they say.

  6. talkendo
    talkendo June 27, 2012 at 4:53 pm |

    As an aside, I’ll volunteer for that team.

    But it’s not about SUPPORTING, it’s about being. If you aren’t going to be a parent (hint: baby sitting isn’t), then don’t pretend to be a supportive spouse.

  7. ASH
    ASH June 27, 2012 at 4:56 pm |

    I have two kids.

    If I am out somewhere without them or my husband, people ask, “Where is Mr. ASH?”

    I then inform them that he is home with the kids. I think that some people assume we have a babysitter, because, if I am out, no way he could be with his own children.

    I wonder, when he is out alone, does anyone wonder where I am?

  8. Kristen J.
    Kristen J. June 27, 2012 at 4:57 pm |

    I will never understand why anyone does regular housework in the first place. What’s the point of cleaning things when they’re just going to get dirty again anyway? Just let them get gross and then whoever breaks and can’t take the filth first will clean it. This has always worked out great for me.

    Relatedly, Mr. Kristen and I have a firm rule. Who ever it annoys first gets the job of cleaning it up. Then again itprobably works for us because no kids and roughly equal levels of annoyance.

  9. ASH
    ASH June 27, 2012 at 4:58 pm |

    Sidenote: they also ask me where my kids are.

    Same question about whether or not they ask him where his kids are.

  10. dungone
    dungone June 27, 2012 at 5:11 pm |

    @Jill, it sounds like she’s only counting the household work hours. She’s not counting job work hours or travel time, which more than make up for the difference. The same report said that men spend an extra 47 minutes per day at work. I didn’t see any travel time in the report, but it’s well known that men spend more time traveling away from home for work. These kinds of requirements that are placed on men prevent them from being able to do as much in the home.

  11. Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg)
    Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg) June 27, 2012 at 5:13 pm |

    I don’t really disagree with any of the conclusions here, but they only look at half the picture.

    I’m in the UK, and don’t know the US stats, but I’d imagine they’re fairly similar. Men in full time employment here work about 20% more hours than women in FTE (median 43hrs/wk as against 36 hrs/wk or so). The higher up the executive and professional ladders you go (into the typical ‘having it all’ debate) the longer the working hours get (for men and women but, sadly, more commonly it’s men, of course).

    That’s not a good thing. It means many men are deprived of time with their kids, miss out on some of the best things in life.

    So I’d add a few items to your list:

    9th – Men, don’t work yourself into an early grave. It’s not worth it. If your boss wants you to put in extra shifts or work overtime, tell him you can’t. Sure, you’ll miss out on bonuses, promotions and pay rises, but money and success isn’t everything. See your kids instead.

    10th – Women, don’t depend on a man to be the breadwinner. If you’re in your 20s the man you hook up with will statistically be less well educated and qualified than you, less likely to have a good job, will probably be earning less than you. Get used to it.

    11th – Guys, if you’re dating a girlfriend who expects you to earn more than her, to work hard and perhaps one day take responsibility for earning the bulk of the family income while she spends more time at home with the kids, perhaps you’re dating the wrong girlfriend.

    12th – Women – if you think you can have a husband / partner who is going to be doing 50% of the childcare and 50% of the housework, don’t expect him to be earning more than 50% of the household income. Don’t expect him to have a glittering prestigious, lucrative career because he most probably won’t. There’s no such thing as having it all, for men or women.

    13th – Women, get it together. Guilt and shame each other for being kept women and housewives. Cast judgment on women who don’t earn an equal share of the household income.

    14th – Seventh, women are not idle, nor are they idiots or chimps. They are just as capable of earning an income and having a career as men are, so let’s also give them the chance to demonstrate that. And just don’t accept the ones who pretend to be chimps in order to abdicate responsibility.

    ———

    OK, I’m being a little bit snarky at the end here, because I think the article above is a little bit snarky and deserves it.

    I think what this debate needs (not just here, Feministe friends, but all over the friggin’ place) is a bit more awareness that our turbocharged consumer capitalist society demands that all of us, men and women, sacrifice a lot of our humanity to be cogs in the moneymaking machine. It’s not pleasant. But we’re not going to solve it by pointing the finger at the other gender when we should really be pointing it at the system and culture that socializes us, alienates us and ultimately dehumanizes us all.

    1. talkendo
      talkendo June 27, 2012 at 5:23 pm |

      our turbocharged consumer capitalist society demands that all of us, men and women, sacrifice a lot of our humanity to be cogs in the moneymaking machine

      Which, truly, is about 52% of the problem [not scientific]

  12. Shoshie
    Shoshie June 27, 2012 at 5:17 pm |

    For the almost three years that we’ve been married, Mr. Shoshie and I have split the chores into dinner, dishes, housecleaning, and laundry. We’ve rotated, but always each taken two tasks. When I decided that I needed to put more time into work in order to finish my degree, Mr. Shoshie offered to take on cooking dinner, doing dishes, and doing laundry, so that I could focus more time on my one chore and, more importantly, graduating. I picked a good one. :)

  13. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 27, 2012 at 5:22 pm |

    10th – Women, don’t depend on a man to be the breadwinner. If you’re in your 20s the man you hook up with will statistically be less well educated and qualified than you, less likely to have a good job, will probably be earning less than you. Get used to it.

    LOL – in a time when women with PhDs earn the same as men with BAs, on average?

  14. Gomi
    Gomi June 27, 2012 at 5:23 pm |

    will never understand why anyone does regular housework in the first place. What’s the point of cleaning things when they’re just going to get dirty again anyway? Just let them get gross and then whoever breaks and can’t take the filth first will clean it. This has always worked out great for me.

    My wife and I have tried that, but unfortunately her tolerance is far lower than mine. So I’ve had to adapt.

    Fifth, if the kid’s father is watching him, that’s not “baby-sitting.”

    Yes, yes and further, yes. My wife has a number of regular evening events or activities, so I watch our son all by my poor Y-chromosomed lonesome. It’s a tradeoff: I get out of the house and interact with adults at work, she gets out and interacts with adults on those evenings. And I’ve had people say “Oh, you’re babysitting tonight?” “No, I’m being a father, what’re you doing?”

    (Regarding my wife being a housewife and issues of pay gap or gendered housekeeping: she’s a chef, I’m a code monkey. Given the costs of childcare, and the relative income of our two fields, regardless of gender, it really does just make more sense, if one of us is to stay at home right now, for it to be her.)

  15. Redstocking Grandma
    Redstocking Grandma June 27, 2012 at 5:27 pm |

    We were saying this in 1970. Why are people just discovering it? Bring back consciousness-raising groups.

    You should all read Joan Williams. She makes an important distinction between market work and family work. Family work has been completely devalued along with the women who do it, whether for their own families or other people’s families. We did not envision a world where affluent women would exploit poor women, women of color, immigrant women, where poor women cannot afford adequate day care.

    Men are supposed to be the ideal worker, who has a family worker at home. Far more women work part-time than people realize. Men are still trapped in the breadwinner role, and real salaries have stagnated for 30 years.

    In the 70s and 80s, my husband was unusual because he shared equally in child care and housework. Now he would not be unusual.

    I really think feminists need to listen to some feminist grandmothers. I feel invisible because I dare to claim that my four spectacular daughters would not be who they are if I hadn’t stayed at home full-time for 15 years, enabling them to spread their wings and soar. Day care would have clipped their wings dramatically.

    They come closer to having it all in ways that are important than anyone I know. Enjoy the grandchild photos; be impressed with my daughters’ accomplishments.

    Tell me why anyone listens to Elizabeth Wurtzel and ignores me. I have been writing about a family friendly society for many years.
    Revolution for a Family Friendly US

    If women were not so compelled to disown their mothers and grandmothers, feminism would have made much more progress. For example, pregnant women listen to “experts” and have a 33 percent C section rate when their mothers had a 5 percent one.

    1. Rusty Covey
      Rusty Covey June 27, 2012 at 8:03 pm |

      Can’t say if this helps you. Years ago, men knew women wouldn’t have anything to do with them if, they didn’t have an education, smart, a job, respectable, well groomed, a guy had to be almost perfect to get the right girl.
      Women years ago held men to a higher standard, then they do today. Fifty years ago, guys were taught manners, how to be polite, to do their chores at home, don’t embarrass the family name.
      The day girls hold boys to a higher standard will be the day boys shape up. When I meet my wife she expected me to work, and work at home with raising the children. She raise the boys to expect the same treatment from their wives. They wash clothes, they clean house, do dishes and cook.
      Girls need to bring back the old fashion ways to make guys work hard at impressing her with good work ethics and respect for her.

  16. mh
    mh June 27, 2012 at 5:29 pm |

    I am spending a lot of time teaching my son to cook and clean (and making sure he sees his Dad cook and clean.) I explain that he will need to do these things, first for himself, then for his family. Once you’ve negotiated these things in your relationship, the next place to focus is the assumptions we’re teaching our sons and daughters.

  17. Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg)
    Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg) June 27, 2012 at 5:32 pm |

    LOL – in a time when women with PhDs earn the same as men with BAs, on average?

    Is that true of men and women in their 20s though? Because it certainly isn’t in the UK, and I’d be surprised if it’s that different over your side.

    That’s a genuine question, BTW, I’d like to know.

    In the UK, the gender pay gap is huge among people in their 50s and above, still big in their 40s, pretty close in their 30s and among people in their 20s women are now earning about 4% more. So across the board, yes, it may well be that men with BAs earn more than women with PhDs, but I suspect that is very largely a generational thing.

    And for the most part, people are meeting their life partners in their 20s and early 30s, which was what I was describing.

  18. Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg)
    Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg) June 27, 2012 at 5:34 pm |

    Which, truly, is about 52% of the problem [not scientific]

    Nonsense. It is precisely 71.97% of the problem, according to my Bumper Book of Made-up Statistics. ;-)

  19. theLaplaceDemon
    theLaplaceDemon June 27, 2012 at 5:38 pm |

    All of this, SO MUCH. But especially this:

    Fourth, remember that even our perceptions of how much work we’re doing aren’t always accurate — we see a 70/30 split as being “equal” since it’s more than we’re used to seeing men do. In self-reported studies, men routinely over-estimate the amount of time they spend with their kids and doing housework.

    Boyfriend very seriously wants to pull his weight and make sure that this is an equal partnership, but it’s still something we have to routinely watch and have check-ins about, because it’s really easy to fall into that kind of 70/30 split.

    In my parents’ household, my mother does virtually all of the housework (and is employed full time). In my grandparents’ household, my grandmother does all of the housework, and is unemployed (well, they’re both retired now, but when I was growing up he worked, she didn’t). Many of us, even those of us with mothers who are pro-feminism, do not have any real role models for a fair division of household labor. So we have to make ourselves those role models for the next group of young women – no matter how much painstaking attention and intentionality it takes.

  20. Tony
    Tony June 27, 2012 at 5:40 pm |

    The next cover of The Atlantic: Can Men Really Have It All?

  21. TokenGreyGuy
    TokenGreyGuy June 27, 2012 at 5:44 pm |

    Is that true of men and women in their 20s though? Because it certainly isn’t in the UK, and I’d be surprised if it’s that different over your side.

    That’s a genuine question, BTW, I’d like to know.

    I’d also like to know. Does this “factoid” control for field of study and prestige of institution? In any case many people get PhDs for research positions that don’t necessarilly pay as well as industry jobs. A PhD in a postdoc often (no sources but I’m fairly confident of this) makes less money than a B.S/B.A who has been in full time work since graduation.

  22. BalancingJane
    BalancingJane June 27, 2012 at 5:45 pm |

    If you wouldn’t go out for a night and leave your baby home alone with your husband, perhaps you’ve married the wrong person. If you wouldn’t go on a business trip for a week and leave your baby home alone with your husband, perhaps you’ve married the wrong person.

    Something that comes up for me is that–for a lot of people–(and I recognize that this is a very traditional, heteronormative progression, but I think that’s what this article is mostly aimed at), the inequality in the relationship isn’t apparent until kids enter the picture. I suspect that a lot of couples talk about the way they will divide work, and everything sounds like an equality-filled paradise in theory, but then they have kids and never talked about how that would be split. Suddenly the realities of those divisions become very divisive and–especially in a culture that doesn’t value equally shared parenting–hard to talk about productively. So what should women do if they find themselves in that position? While maybe they “married the wrong person,” just tossing aside the marriage doesn’t seem like a very good option for a lot of people.

  23. talkendo
    talkendo June 27, 2012 at 5:45 pm |

    Ally Fogg
    There are several metropolitan areas where the gap is reversed among 20 somethings. Chicago, Minneapolis and Dallas among them. As revealed by a quick scan on wikipedia (I know, I know – phone, train, forgive me).

  24. Cthandhs
    Cthandhs June 27, 2012 at 5:45 pm |

    I married my husband because he does laundry. When I tell people that they think I’m joking, but I’m not. We don’t have kids, we didn’t have to get married. I wanted a partner who would be a *partner*, not just a fun boyfriend.

    These days he’s unemployed, so I’m the breadwinner and he takes care of the house (and the pets) and cooks while he goes back to school. I like my job and I hate cleaning, so fine by me. Now I just need him to bring me my slippers and an old fashioned when I get home. ;)

  25. Kierra
    Kierra June 27, 2012 at 5:50 pm |

    I will never understand why anyone does regular housework in the first place. What’s the point of cleaning things when they’re just going to get dirty again anyway? Just let them get gross and then whoever breaks and can’t take the filth first will clean it. This has always worked out great for me.

    Tried that. Both of us were too stubborn to admit that we wanted things cleaned. We ended up dividing the chores into assigned tasks to prevent living in squalor (he does dishes, I do laundry, he cleans the kitchen, I clean the bathroom, etc).

  26. LaLasha
    LaLasha June 27, 2012 at 6:07 pm |

    So happy to say my husband is not one of these ass hats. He is in the military works long days and still is hands on with our kids 50% of the child care when he is home and I would say 60% of the house wirk( new baby hard for me to clean durning the day.) He is great.

  27. kungfulola
    kungfulola June 27, 2012 at 6:10 pm |

    Seriously, though. I know we’ll never earn as much as a m/f couple on average, just because we’re women, but fuck it; at least I don’t have to nag and moan just to have my partner pull…maybe…a third… of what the house upkeep requires. I can only imagine straight women’s plight.

    Trufax, seriously. As a lady who married another (much finer than me) lady, we are two years into keeping house together, and I notice this often. Reading these discussions brings it home to me how much we’ve sidestepped by being a same-sex couple. Straight couples make division of labour sound adversarial, in the language they use and their tone. When my wife and I talk about who gets which chores, it’s more like we’re working toward a goal we both want, and less about trying to get away with or prove something.

  28. pheenobarbidoll
    pheenobarbidoll June 27, 2012 at 6:12 pm |

    I will never understand why anyone does regular housework in the first place. What’s the point of cleaning things when they’re just going to get dirty again anyway?

    The point is to not let it get gross in the first place, and taking care of the things you have. And letting some things get gross will ruin them quickly. I don’t live a disposable life and can’t afford to replace things simply because no one could be bothered to clean them.

  29. Lolagirl
    Lolagirl June 27, 2012 at 6:12 pm |

    Re: point 5, it’s a big pet peeve of mine when friends who have kids will say their male partner is “babysitting” the kids. Um, no…they’re his. That’s not babysitting.

    This drives me batshit, it’s not babysitting, it’s parenting.

    What’s the point of cleaning things when they’re just going to get dirty again anyway?

    LOL, my 7 year old tried this logic on me a few weeks ago when I made him clean up his mess. I’m big on making my kids indentured servants/carry their own weight around the house as soon as they are able to walk. If it isn’t me who made the mess, it sure isn’t me who has to clean it up!

    In all seriousness, there needs to be a huge paradigm shift in how things get divided along gendered lines here in the U.S. There has definitely been a great deal of progress over the last 30 years or so, but it’s still a drop in the bucket as far as I’m concerned.

  30. Past my expiration date
    Past my expiration date June 27, 2012 at 6:14 pm |

    The breakdown of childcare responsibilities was not much different—55 percent of working men said they cared for their kids on an average day, whereas 72 percent of working women did.

    I’m trying to figure out how this works. On an average day, 45% of working men and 28% of working women [both, presumably, with at least one child] did not take care of their child[ren] at all. Who is taking care of the child[ren]? The wolves?

  31. Tamara
    Tamara June 27, 2012 at 6:17 pm |

    My partner and I have things sorted in a pretty reasonable way but we can also afford to have some cleaning help, part time nanny and so forth. Having money definitely helps.

    I learned the heartache of inequitable chore sharing many years ago when I moved in with my best girl friend. She just did not pull her weight and it poisoned the relationship. I was pretty keen for that not to happen with my partner.

  32. Gerry Dorrian
    Gerry Dorrian June 27, 2012 at 6:21 pm |

    I’ve heard my wife make a point similar to Lasciel’s very often – who made it a rule that housework has to be regular? Who wants to live in a showhome? She knows that if I’m unhappy with how the house looks I’m capable of putting that right.

  33. Mystified by Feminist Websites « Clarissa's Blog

    [...] what am I wondering about if even a very popular feminist website publishes posts based on the idea that house work is women’s obligation that men should “help” [...]

  34. EG
    EG June 27, 2012 at 6:56 pm |

    I’ve seen straight, partnered women explain their decision to stay-at-home by noting that childcare would have taken too much out of their paycheck—as if this cost was just theirs to bear!

    I like the piece, except for this bit, as it seems to almost willfully misunderstand the reasoning. It’s not that the cost is only the woman’s to bear; it’s that if you as a family are mingling finances, a fairly common situation, there is no or very little net gain in family income if the cost of childcare is close to the salary of the lower-paid parent. As the piece says, the wage gap is a political issue, but being aware of that won’t change the financial facts for any given family.

  35. maggiemay
    maggiemay June 27, 2012 at 6:56 pm |

    love this post—except i take issue with the “you might end up alone” thing—-just because you are not married or living with a man doesnt mean you are alone—men can be part of your life without marriage

    also, its interesting how many women in same sex partnerships dont have that problem—not exactly unexpected, but interesting

  36. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 27, 2012 at 6:58 pm |

    So across the board, yes, it may well be that men with BAs earn more than women with PhDs, but I suspect that is very largely a generational thing.

    You’re probably right about that; the study I saw doesn’t control for generation.

  37. Beauzeaux
    Beauzeaux June 27, 2012 at 7:02 pm |

    This is the article that wised me up back in 1970:
    http://uic.edu/orgs/cwluherstory/CWLUArchive/polhousework.html

    Every word is still relevant. Every. Word.

  38. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 27, 2012 at 7:04 pm |

    Reading these discussions brings it home to me how much we’ve sidestepped by being a same-sex couple. When my wife and I talk about who gets which chores, it’s more like we’re working toward a goal we both want, and less about trying to get away with or prove something.

    I know, right? I keep having these moments of “Well, thank fuck!” about being in a same-sex relationship. Nobody feels emasculated or efeminated (is that a word?) and we just… look at Things To Be Done and Who Can (/Wants/Likes/Hates) Them and just…go for it. There. Simple.

    Of course, there’s the time I was doing dishes and my wife was dismantling the dining table and I looked at her and went “So is this when I make you a sammich?” and we laughed until we cried. I guess society isn’t used to same-sex marriages enough to paste ridiculous stereotypes on us yet? :P

  39. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 27, 2012 at 7:07 pm |

    Maybe next time I’ll just say, “Why do you call it babysitting?” and see what they say.

    Alternatively, “But aren’t you afraid of him hitting on your husband, since they’re home together?” >.>

    1. Tamara
      Tamara June 27, 2012 at 7:12 pm |

      I get the babysitting thing a lot, as well as the question of where my children are when I’m on my own. I struggle not to be sarcastic but sarcasm often wins: “um, they do have a father”.

  40. Rusty Covey
    Rusty Covey June 27, 2012 at 7:10 pm |

    My wife taught me many things about caring for the family at home. A man who is sure of himself shouldn’t have a problem with his wife asking his to do anything.
    On top of a sixty hour work week, I clean, wash clothes, babysit the grand kids, cook and tend to her personal needs. So, for women to be doing all the home chores on top of working. The problem might lay more in the wife not being able to motivate the husband.
    Perhaps I like challenges, the other day Rita told me, that sounds like too much of a struggle for me. I said. I have never thought about anything being a struggle. I don’t think that way.
    Whats different from a child and an adult when it comes to doing something? Children find the fun in doing things. Adults have to think about it first, thinking can lead a person to not do it or its becomes a chore.
    When my wife visits me at work. Later she will tell me. You always look like you’re having fun with what ever you are doing. Its the same way at home. I do carry a child-like mindset. This is something I’ve done since I was a child.
    A person can become very successful at anything once they understand how to think like a child and have fun with what ever they are doing.
    So, perhaps husbands lack the ability to have fun? Which is the reason I have decide to become a Life Coach.

  41. EG
    EG June 27, 2012 at 7:13 pm |

    So across the board, yes, it may well be that men with BAs earn more than women with PhDs, but I suspect that is very largely a generational thing.

    I’m not so sure. A woman who gets a PhD in the humanities is going to spend several years earning less than 20K and then, once hired at the PhD level, will be earning significantly less than a man with a BA who has chosen to enter another white-collar career, and most women who get PhDs get them in the humanities.

    According to this table, a man with a BA will outearn a woman with an MA, though.

  42. EG
    EG June 27, 2012 at 7:15 pm |

    The problem might lay more in the wife not being able to motivate the husband.

    Why would it be her responsibility to motivate him to do housework?

    1. Rusty Covey
      Rusty Covey June 27, 2012 at 7:47 pm |

      Sometimes a person, a man, a husband needs to be motivated. We’re talking about chemistry here. Pay close attention to man how they go about motivating a woman to do something. Since, they have done it for so long, its hard for them to change it. Look, if, a husband can’t connect with his responsibilities and the wife feels he has to and she isn’t going to motivate him The relationship might be dead in the water.
      We are talking about husband not doing their chores? Right. The person taking charge will usually be the one to motivate the other. When a couple can’t come together on the same note. One has to take charge in order for the family to run smoothly.
      Which one would you use, motivation with a positive attitude, or do it all yourself, or find a new husband because I get angry at him for not helping.
      I motivate my wife all the time. We all need it from time to time. When I’m feeling sluggish she motivates me.
      Here is something I have learned about about people. Example, When I told my mother-in-law about Madilyn, my grand daughter how she likes to help me in the kitchen. She said. she will not do they very long. Madilyn is four now and will walk into the kitchen and start helping me load the dishwasher.
      My other two grand daughters will not help when I ask them. Its all in the attitude of the parent teaching their child through motivation, its a way of having fun.
      Lets look at a guy, trying to get him to do something he was a child might be impossible. My three grand sons, Madilyns brothers can’t seem to grasp things like she did, they will say this is boring and I did nothing different from how I motivated Madilyn.
      Guys are hardwired differently. I’m different, born with a severe mental condition very close to what we know today as low functioning autism, and at age six a near drowning erased my memory, removed what little feelings and emotions, I now had a very simple thinking mind. My mental diagnosis was Mental Retardation.
      I have carry no bias or judgement towards what is right or wrong when comparing my responsibilities to my wife. This October will make 31 years for us.
      Hope this helped.

  43. maggiemay
    maggiemay June 27, 2012 at 7:48 pm |

    @beauzeaux——

    just read the link—-laffed and cried @ the same time—-

    the phrase “marriage strike” has crossed my mind more than once—make them do their own housework by refusing to marry or live with them—-go out on dates and have fun but no marriage unless they step up

  44. Donna L
    Donna L June 27, 2012 at 7:59 pm |

    I get the babysitting thing a lot,

    How disappointing to learn that people still use that terminology. When my son was a baby, 20 years ago or so, I used to get absolutely furious whenever anyone used that word to describe what I was doing when I was with my son. I didn’t babysit my own baby. It’s called being a parent, for God’s sake.

    I equally despised having the time my son and I spent together after my ex and I separated when he was 10, being described as “visitation.” It was incredibly insulting and dismissive of our relationship. When he was with me, as he was close to half the time, he was “home.” Nobody was visiting anybody. And if anyone did use that word, the conversation was over so far as I was concerned. (Of course, after I transitioned, when people who didn’t know my history perceived that he wasn’t with me all the time, they made the equally unpleasant assumption that I must be a bad mother and had done something to lose custody.)

  45. Esti
    Esti June 27, 2012 at 8:05 pm |

    @Redstocking Grandma

    I feel invisible because I dare to claim that my four spectacular daughters would not be who they are if I hadn’t stayed at home full-time for 15 years, enabling them to spread their wings and soar. Day care would have clipped their wings dramatically.

    Unless the daycare centers in your town literally went around clipping children with scissors, I am struggling to understand this comment. I was raised by two working parents and spent a fair amount of time in daycare (full-day when I was very young, half-day when I was in junior and senior kindergarden, and in before- and after-school programs when I was in elementary school). I didn’t suffer in any way from it. I have a great relationship with my parents, degrees from fancy schools, and a career I love. It’s great that staying home with your children worked well for you, but that doesn’t mean daycare can’t be an equally good option.

    As for the rest of your comment: no one here is just discovering the fact that women do way more work at home/with kids than men do, or that the work women do at home is devalued by society. Feministe has discussed these issues repeatedly, and in general I think younger feminists are well aware of both those trends. Consciousness raising is perhaps the thing that the feminist movement has managed to do most effectively over the past few decades, and the internet has only enhanced that. And I don’t know what causes you to think that women today are “disowning” their mothers and grandmothers, but I’d suggest you consider how much respect is a two-way street — if you want young women to recognize that older feminists have valuable things to say, it’s probably not a good idea to go around suggesting that younger feminists are ignorant and need to be told what’s up.

  46. Esti
    Esti June 27, 2012 at 8:15 pm |

    @ Rusty Covey

    The day girls hold boys to a higher standard will be the day boys shape up. When I meet my wife she expected me to work, and work at home with raising the children. She raise the boys to expect the same treatment from their wives. They wash clothes, they clean house, do dishes and cook. Girls need to bring back the old fashion ways to make guys work hard at impressing her with good work ethics and respect for her.

    I’m not interested in a guy who only feels the need to be an adult when it impresses a girl. If you can’t shape up on your own, then why on earth would I bypass the men who are already fully-functioning adults to instead spend time training you to respect me (!) or to do basic life tasks like housework or childcare?

  47. tinfoil hattie
    tinfoil hattie June 27, 2012 at 8:16 pm |

    Me: “Clean the living room, please.”
    Kid: “Huh. But I didn’t mess it up!”
    Me: “Yeah, well, Dad & I didn’t crap in your diapes, either, but we sure as hell cleaned THAT up.”
    Kid: “Mom. You can’t use that excuse forever.”
    Me: “Oh, yes I can.”

    All-time favorite quote from a friend whose husband was preening and complimenting himself on how “good” he was for “helping” with the kids: “Don’t break your arm, patting yourself on the back for taking care of your own damn children.”

  48. tinfoil hattie
    tinfoil hattie June 27, 2012 at 8:21 pm |

    @Rusty Covey, it is MEN’s responsibility to treat ALL people with respect and hold THEMSELVES to decent standards. How is it women’s responsibility? And what about men in relationships with men? Who monitors whom?

  49. Outrageandsprinkles
    Outrageandsprinkles June 27, 2012 at 9:20 pm |

    When my male friends post on facebook about taking care of their kids I have to actually remind myself not to praise them for being such attentive parents because I realize the only reason I instinctively want to do that is because they are men. When my female friends post about all the work they are doing taking care of their kids it’s like it’s a given but when the men post about the details of childcare it’s like it’s something special. The fact that I still have to remind myself not to think this way, feminist that I am, is a testament to how ingrained this thinking is around me. I also get pretty pissed at every commercial that depicts men as being incapable of doing ANYTHING, then I recently had a discussion with my boyfriend during which he informed me I sometimes make him feel that way about housework. I was completely floored, I saw him as an equal and had no idea I was making him feel incompetent or like I didn’t trust him to do basic tasks. My point is, this shit is all equal and no sex or gender is naturally better suited to it. It’s not right or fair to either give people a pass, or give extra praise, based on gender.

    1. Tamara
      Tamara June 27, 2012 at 9:39 pm |

      That reminds me of an issue we had at one shared house I lived in. When people do chores that they should be doing is it necessary to make a comment about it and thank them, or is that just giving unnecessary cookies because mature adults just do their share?

      I must say, I think it would be a bit odd to comment (even positively) on any of my friends’ parenting conduct, whether they are men or women.

  50. The Warren
    The Warren June 27, 2012 at 9:34 pm |

    Actually chicks (I mean i’m a dude right, so ya’ll gotta be chicks), my grandmother remarked one day she’s very pleased how much men do now compared to the old days so really what are you all complaining about? Nobody told women to have children, and go work a 9-5 job on top of that. In my case, I do bring home the cash and do casual house work, child rearing, and the same way my woman goes to work casually to bring in a little extra cash. If women don’t have the brains or morals to cut back when they have children in a 2 income familiy then that’s their problem. Remember gals, when you have kids it’s not about you anymore. If you can’t feature that, don’t have kids.

    Kids grow up rather fast and before you know it your 10-11 year old can be doing the babysitting of the younger siblings and the woman can go to work all she likes. Furthermore, it’s true that most of the time, the woman is literally going to work to pay for childcare. Only a complete idiot would go and waste his or her life in a cubicle or some bullshit job, ditch the kids at family fun daycare or whatever, and have the majority of that paycheck go to complete strangers who only give a shit about your kid while the checks keep coming in. But going back to what my dear old grandma stated, men do do a helluva lot more with their kids and in the home (along with all the old jobs that most women won’t do like checking out whose in the backyard, clearing that massive shit from the toilet etc, etc), but your still bitching and moaning about it. Maybe the problem is not men, maybe it’s just you.

  51. EG
    EG June 27, 2012 at 9:47 pm |

    I don’t know, I do tell my best friend as often as possible that she’s a wonderful mother, because mothers are given so much shit and made to feel so much anxiety and guilt and not-good-enough-ness, that I think it’s important to support the mothers I love and praise them.

    I guess I’m in favor of thanking people for doing things that make my life better, even if it isn’t or shouldn’t be a big deal, because I usually am grateful, and also because for me, a little positive reinforcement goes a long way, so I always imagine that other people like it as well.

  52. dungone
    dungone June 27, 2012 at 9:48 pm |

    And the home requirements being placed on women prevent them from being able to do as much paid work in the workplace.

    Yes, to some extent it’s a bit of a messy bind for both sexes. But that’s a far cry from saying “men aren’t doing nearly enough.” Are home requirements really placed on women because men won’t do the housework? Or are men unable to do the housework because they have too many breadwinner requirements placed on them? And more importantly – what’s going to happen next, in a post-recession economy? Until now, women have tended to make career choices that weren’t very breadwinner-oriented, even before getting married or having children. Will there be a shift – such as more women entering STEM fields? Even with dating choices, a precursor to family life, will women start putting a little less focus on material things that men can provide?

  53. DonnaL
    DonnaL June 27, 2012 at 10:17 pm |

    Fifty years ago, guys were taught manners, how to be polite, to do their chores at home, don’t embarrass the family name.

    Fifty years ago was 1960. You sound exactly like people in 1960 who were complaining that it wasn’t 1910 anymore.

  54. Tamara
    Tamara June 27, 2012 at 10:32 pm |

    @EG general supportive compliments, sure, but in response to specific actions? I guess I am worried that if I do that it would appear patronising!

    As for thanking people, I took the same position as you do, but one of my flatmates did not. She wasn’t a warm fuzzies person though.

    @Rusty Covey comment 47 – adult men are not children.

  55. DonnaL
    DonnaL June 27, 2012 at 10:42 pm |

    I guess I’m in favor of thanking people for doing things that make my life better, even if it isn’t or shouldn’t be a big deal, because I usually am grateful, and also because for me, a little positive reinforcement goes a long way, so I always imagine that other people like it as well.

    Well, I certainly do.

  56. suspect class
    suspect class June 27, 2012 at 11:25 pm |

    @Rusty Covey, it is MEN’s responsibility to treat ALL people with respect and hold THEMSELVES to decent standards. How is it women’s responsibility? And what about men in relationships with men? Who monitors whom?

    The fashion guy monitors the truck driver guy. Bear couples flip for it.

    1. Rusty Covey
      Rusty Covey June 28, 2012 at 2:21 pm |

      No matter how you slice it up men will perform badly in most situations.
      For years I have research the reason people struggle in life. What I learned has to do with what takes place in the first three or even two years of a person life.
      You might not be this, but, here it is. You and every adult in the world are not who you should be as a person. I don’t believe in family traits. I believe its more about habits formed as a child.
      The problem has to do with this problems transforming into something new during adolescents. We are going to see more serious problems in the future related to this, we are already seeing it now.
      How many people don’t care what China does as long as their portfolio looks great and they get the kind of retirement they want.
      It is sad that moms aren’t only raising their children, but, they are also having raise their husbands, too.
      Lets look at habits. Take a little time to observe your husband. How many things will he do from habit. Take a look at yourself, also. Habits keeps us in the same place day after day. Years will go by and nothing has changed.
      The comments I get back kinda leads me in the direction you are done with your husband. Each thing a husband does is like a grain of sand slowly burying your love for him. Over time the love will not be there.
      So, how long will you continue to suffer? Work on changing your habits. He might not know what to do when he expects things to be a certain way.

  57. Lauren M
    Lauren M June 27, 2012 at 11:53 pm |

    Nothing much to add except. YES YES YES YES YES. My fiance and I split up the housework as equally as we can. We have three cats and two big litter boxes. He has one and I have the other and we both clean them daily. (OK, I’m obsessive about mine and sometimes do it twice daily :) He does the lion’s share of taking the dog on walks, so I do the lion’s share of feeding the animals. I am better at doing dishes, cleaning messes around the house, etc. and have extremely high standards for that, so he takes out the trash and carries laundry down to the washer for me (since I have a physical disability that makes it hard for me to manage all that heavy lifting) How hard can it be to take care of yourself like a grown ass adult? What are men doing before they get married? I see plenty of men out in life who aren’t married and they don’t seem too dirty and smelly and have clean clothes on!

    Does he work longer hours than I do? Yeah, but that doesn’t mean he gets to be lazy when he comes home. I work only four days, but that’s because of my aforementioned disability and even though it did take a while to get through to him on this, that doesn’t mean I get to work more at home, because my Dr. told me not to work so much, because I have to rest.

    So, DUDES get it together!

  58. Lauren M
    Lauren M June 27, 2012 at 11:56 pm |

    @Rusty Covey, it is MEN’s responsibility to treat ALL people with respect and hold THEMSELVES to decent standards. How is it women’s responsibility? And what about men in relationships with men? Who monitors whom?

    The fashion guy monitors the truck driver guy. Bear couples flip for it.

    @suspect class I can’t stop laughing at this!

  59. Wendy
    Wendy June 28, 2012 at 1:21 am |

    Cast judgment on men who don’t help out around the house.

    Could I suggest we start by not using this phrase? “Help out”, I mean. It’s got sort of a built-in acceptance of household tasks being women’s work. Nobody ever says that someone should “help out” with things that are partially their responsibility to begin with.

  60. The Warren
    The Warren June 28, 2012 at 2:12 am |

    still in moderation for 6 hours? Can’t handle the truth so you’re just gonna try to bury it? I guess I done hit me a nerve. Ahh truth, gotta hate it when it’s against ya. cheers hun

  61. The Warren
    The Warren June 28, 2012 at 2:13 am |

    still in moderation for 6 hours? Can’t handle the truth so you’re just gonna try to bury it? I guess I done hit me a nerve. Ahh truth, gotta hate it when it’s against ya. cheers hun

  62. Debra
    Debra June 28, 2012 at 4:38 am |

    No, dungone. One study by sociologist Sampson Lee Blair reveals that even when women work and the husbands are unemployed, she still does most of the housework. Also, women who make more money than their partners do the most housework of all. Another sociologist, Tichenoro, noticed this curious phenomenon, “gender deviance neutralization”, which is the psychological work couples do to maintain the gendered norms. The cultural expectation of what it is to be a good wife is a strong influence on gendered roles. It is not just a rational, if unfair, division of labour.

  63. Hugo
    Hugo June 28, 2012 at 4:44 am |

    @EG:

    “I’m not so sure. A woman who gets a PhD in the humanities is going to spend several years earning less than 20K and then, once hired at the PhD level, will be earning significantly less than a man with a BA who has chosen to enter another white-collar career, and most women who get PhDs get them in the humanities.”

    Yes, humanities pay less than STEM majors. But it’s the respective woman’s choice to engage in a humanities field. I’m a man and in humanities myself. I don’t earn more than a female of similar qualifications in the same field does.

    So your comment makes no sense to me whatsoever. Care to explain?

  64. Colin Reid
    Colin Reid June 28, 2012 at 4:55 am |

    What are men doing before they get married? I see plenty of men out in life who aren’t married and they don’t seem too dirty and smelly and have clean clothes on!

    I wonder about this single man vs cohabiting man thing. It could be that men living alone also tend to do less housework than women living alone, because perhaps they are more mess-tolerant on average and/or it is more socially acceptable for a single man to have a messy home than a single woman. Ditto with cooking – single men may be more inclined to eat food that requires less preparation on their part, even if it’s more expensive or less nutritious. Beyond a certain minimum standard, you can’t tell exactly how much housework is being done unless you live there.

    Of course, if the amount of time the average man spends on chores goes down drastically as soon as he moves in with a woman (more so than the economies of scale from two people living together) there’s an issue. But it could also be that men and women are on average going in with very different conceptions of the total amount of chores involved in maintaining a household. I wonder if there’s also a difference between men who marry young and move straight from their parents’ house to a conjugal household, versus men who’ve spent several years living in a ‘bachelor pad’ and/or with other men.

    Child-raising is a separate issue as it’s an experience that most people don’t have before settling down with a partner.

  65. tristan
    tristan June 28, 2012 at 6:07 am |

    Keep in mind that in the UK, paid maternity leave is a year, whilst paid paternity leave is just two weeks. This has a huge knock on effect – financially forcing men and women to adopt “traditional” roles at a critical time in their lives – when people are having to establish a completely new lifestyle, learn new habits and create new rhythms. This isn’t just about changing hearts and minds. Despite our best efforts, misogyny still has the support of the law.

  66. Karin
    Karin June 28, 2012 at 6:52 am |

    Sadly women are still the primary caretakers of the children. Once she stays more, men resent her bringing in less money and demand she makes up for it with chores, which makes it harder for her to get back into the workforce and really easy for her to slip into the role of housewife. Its a slippery slope.

    Of course that wouldnt happen if the wife was the primary breadwinner, but most women put a mans wallet before his housekeeping skills, so in most cases hubby is more likely to be the primary breadwinner.

  67. Alexandra
    Alexandra June 28, 2012 at 7:27 am |

    These conversations are so weird to me because the primary tension among my parents growing up (married in the 80s, raised us in the 90s) was that my mother wanted to quit work so she could stay home with my brother and I, because she was jealous that my father got to do most of the child-rearing and domestic stuff.

    Growing up, my father’s an academic and my mother worked as a librarian. Librarians work 40-hour weeks; academics may work many hours in a week, but their schedules are very flexible and lots of those hours get worked at home. I have wonderful memories of summers spent at the beach while my father read fat books of military history and graded papers. My father has also always done all of the cooking and grocery shopping, and at least half of the chores (he’s a neat freak and can’t bear mess; when he’s bored he cleans the refrigerator). Frankly, the difficult thing has always been getting my father to let OTHER people do some of the work!

    And yet, despite all this, there’s been a ton of ramifications from societal sexism on my parents’ marriage and my family as a whole — for instance, my father making (atm) six times as much as my mother does despite her working 45 hours a week whereas he’s got a 3/4 time teaching load right now. Like the fact that we were always moving for my father’s jobs, so he could get tenure, and my mother’s career has been downwardly mobile over the last ten years. Like the fact that my father can be very, very controlling because he has built himself up as the Indispensible One without whom everything and everyone would fall apart, and therefore he has the right to run everyone’s life, his wife’s and his two children’s lives.

    I don’t think people are doing this, but I just wanted to pop my head in and say, you can’t equate equal division of work in a hetero relationship, or even the man doing most of the work, with real equality between the sexes.

  68. maggiemay
    maggiemay June 28, 2012 at 7:53 am |

    excellent point alexandra

  69. m1nts
    m1nts June 28, 2012 at 8:11 am |

    I understand that most of full time working women are under paid and still have to bear all the household activities including feeding the husband.
    I’ve seen it in my circle of friends and family, and while it is the norm I have to speak up and share my own story.
    My husband and I work full time, we both work on the same field and even on the same company. I make more money than he does, and this doesn’t bother him at all, on the contrary, he’s happy I’m fulfilling my dreams and becoming a successful consultant.
    Our house work is more balanced than I could ever wish for. He does the dishes, feeds the baby at night and change diapers. He helps me in all imaginable ways and he is as tired as me when the week ends.
    I truly believe this has to do with his mom become a sole provider when his father left when he was really young. He believes the head of the family is the mother and men have to be there to be a support system, and decisions have to be consensual.
    I don’t know if he would think differently if he didn’t admire his mother as he does, I don’t know if it my marriage would be different if it wasn’t because this woman was strong and brave enough to overcome poverty and become a successful business woman and taught him that women are equal than men and they should be respected and being a man didn’t mean he was entitled to sit and do nothing around the house.

    I take my hat off for all single moms out there who are raising a new generation of good men. (and not single moms like me who are trying to do the same ;) )

  70. Nathan
    Nathan June 28, 2012 at 8:19 am |

    When I read your great post on Feminism + Housewifery last week, I immediately thought about this issue but left off commenting since the column clearly had a different focus. But these are my thoughts almost exactly. As a culture, I think we need to heap a lot more shame on men who are comfortable with taking a back seat when it comes to housework and childcare. Regardless of gender, caring for your children should be the active focus of your life outside of work. That’s just the way it is.

    The flip side of this coin is that the opposite arrangement – a woman who works 90 hours a week with a stay at home partner – is absolutely no better. We need protected time for everybody to care for their children, and people who choose to avoid their children out of anything other than dire necessity should be judged accordingly.

    Thanks for writing this.

  71. whatshername
    whatshername June 28, 2012 at 8:31 am |

    @Ally Fogg (20)

    In the UK, the gender pay gap is huge among people in their 50s and above, still big in their 40s, pretty close in their 30s and among people in their 20s women are now earning about 4% more. So across the board, yes, it may well be that men with BAs earn more than women with PhDs, but I suspect that is very largely a generational thing.

    I’m not at all sure these numbers proof the gender pay gap is just “a generational thing”. It could just as well be the case that a lot of the factors that contribute to the gender pay gap gain more influence later in the life/career of a person. For example, the pressure on woman to work part time once (if) they have children affects more woman in their mid-thirtees than at the age of 20. Also, the fact that man are more likely to get a raise/promotion has more influence on their salary at 50 than at their first job. Therefore, the fact that woman at 20 make (on average) more or less the same as man of that age doesn’t mean that the problem will just solve itself in a couple of years.

  72. anna
    anna June 28, 2012 at 9:04 am |

    I totally agree with what you’re saying, but I would also note that the fact the the U.S. is one of only four countries without paid parental leave and has no good, cheap, widely-available childcare makes the problem worse.

    I also think this problem adds to the wage gap. Mothers of young children don’t get considered for high-powered jobs, because everyone assumes she’s going to need lots of time off for childcare. But nobody has a problem hiring a father of young children to work 80 hour weeks, because that’s what mothers are for.

  73. With Love
    With Love June 28, 2012 at 9:04 am |

    still in moderation for 6 hours? Can’t handle the truth so you’re just gonna try to bury it? I guess I done hit me a nerve. Ahh truth, gotta hate it when it’s against ya. cheers hun

    I, for one, cannot *wait* for The Warren’s comment to come out of moderation. I fully expect it to be life-changing. I’m on PINS AND NEEDLES over here, hun!

    (Hun? Is that what we’re calling each other around here these days?)

  74. With Love
    With Love June 28, 2012 at 9:06 am |

    13th – Women, get it together. Guilt and shame each other for being kept women and housewives. Cast judgment on women who don’t earn an equal share of the household income.

    Because women just aren’t scolded often enough! That’s the problem, hun!

  75. EG
    EG June 28, 2012 at 9:27 am |

    Cast judgment on women who don’t earn an equal share of the household income.

    Yes, of course. Because if you are a victim of the wage gap, IT IS ALL YOUR OWN FAULT.

  76. DP
    DP June 28, 2012 at 9:31 am |

    It’s been studied. Men do less housework…even when they live alone. For whatever reason (bio, psych, social conditioning) they just appear to care less.

    When cohabitation starts, there’s inevitably a conflict – one partner (usually but not always the dude) does less and has lower standards. The other partner does more and has higher standards.

    There has to be compromise on both sides. If one person cares about a whole bunch of things – neatly made beds, carefully arranged silverware, etc., etc. – that the other person doesn’t give a damn about, why is it fair to say “well, you just need to up your standards.”

    In an ideal world, the neater partner would cut their standards by 50% while the messier one would up their housework by 50%. But inevitably, the former always feels like they shouldn’t have to compromise their standards and the latter always put-upon to be doing all this extra work they never cared about before.

    And yes, a lot of this stuff is negotiable – single dudes living alone don’t die of foodborne infections or spend every day in unutterable filth.

  77. Andie
    Andie June 28, 2012 at 9:31 am |

    That reminds me of an issue we had at one shared house I lived in. When people do chores that they should be doing is it necessary to make a comment about it and thank them, or is that just giving unnecessary cookies because mature adults just do their share?

    I think saying thank you is perfectly reasonable.. it’s not giving cookies. I wouldn’t say it’s necessary to gush with praise, but I always think giving appreciation for things people do that make our lives easier is just a nice thing to do.

    I thank my kids when they clean their room without me asking. But they don’t get rewarded for doing shit they’re supposed to do anyway. Thank you’s are a courtesy, not a reward.

    In the vein of the ‘babysitting’ thing, my ex used to get irritated when I’d thank him for taking the kids on an off weekend, or switching with me, or just if I needed to do something, because it’s his job as a parent, but my reasoning was that saying ‘Thank you’ was just reasonable because whether it is his job or not, it’s still something that has made my life a little easier so I like to show appreciation. I don’t gush on, but I’ll say “Hey thanks for keeping the girls last night so I could get such and such thing done. I appreciate it.”

    Just because something is expected doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be appreciated. That being said, if he raised a fuss or expected cookies for being dad, I’d let him know what for.

  78. EG
    EG June 28, 2012 at 9:59 am |

    Yes, humanities pay less than STEM majors. But it’s the respective woman’s choice to engage in a humanities field. I’m a man and in humanities myself. I don’t earn more than a female of similar qualifications in the same field does.

    So your comment makes no sense to me whatsoever. Care to explain?

    I’m not sure what needs explanation. A commenter remarked that the ability of men with BAs to outearn women with PhDs might reflect a generational shift; I then pointed out that it might also reflect the low esteem in which specialties currently attractive women are held and the concomitant low pay. What doesn’t make sense to you?

    Further, when we look at large social trends, saying “it’s all an individual choice” is not really applicable. It’s all an individual choice, and women just happen to opt for the humanities, and the humanities just happen to earn far less than the sciences and social sciences? No consideration of social pressures, influences, the way that an influx of women into a profession is almost always followed by a drop in esteem and/or pay? You’re making a facile, lousy analysis here, and it does not pass peer review.

    Finally, you’re making no more than a woman in your field would? My first question would be…how do you know? Have you checked? Because there’s a wealth of data out there on women asking for raises vs. men asking for them, what happens when women ask for them, etc., and I’ve seen nothing to suggest that academia is exempt from these gendered dynamics. I wouldn’t be so sure you’re not getting a financial leg up, if I were you. This study done at Arizona State University strongly suggests otherwise; you’ll note that the salaries start out equal at hiring, but as you move up the ranks, the discrepancy becomes greater and greater. So does this peer-reviewed article, which cites previous research as well.

  79. Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg)
    Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg) June 28, 2012 at 10:00 am |

    @ WithLove & @ EG

    Because women just aren’t scolded often enough! That’s the problem, hun!

    You’re right of course. It’s an utterly ridiculous thing to suggest that women should be scolded for earning less money, working shorter hours, having to take career breaks etc etc etc.

    Almost the only suggestion as ridiculous would be the idea that men should be scolded for working long hours and chasing higher incomes instead of being equal parents. Good job nobody has suggeste… oh.

    That was kind of my point. So long as we are blaming each other and scolding each other rather than looking at our economic structures, legal conditions of employment and the deep socialization of our gender roles, then we’re pissing in the wind.

    And thanks to the commenter above who reminded me that the US has no statutory maternity – never mind paternity – pay – surely the only developed country in the world like that. It’s astonishing.

    Sorry guys, you are wagging fingers at your husbands, boyfriends and partners when you should be marching on the White House and threatening to burn it down. Place the blame where it belongs.

  80. rain
    rain June 28, 2012 at 10:03 am |

    First, don’t marry or move in or reproduce with men unless they pull their own weight. Seriously. That might mean you end up alone. That might be a better option.

    I have never met a man that comes even close to pulling his weight. None. Zip. Nada. If we consider only actually doing the tasks, maybe a few that might do about a third, and this includes couples where both work, and couples where she’s employed and he isn’t (yes, seriously). But if we include the managing aspect (as we should, since I can’t imagine a workplace discussion that wouldn’t acknowledge management tasks and would consider the work of the boss as equivalent to the work of the peons), I don’t know of any guy that makes more than a token effort. Maybe that’s because I’m old (50) and I’m not seeing men in their idealistic, sure-I-believe-in-equality phase; I’m seeing them later, when they’ve shown their true colours. Although the younger couples I know don’t do things much differently; I think men like the idea of equality, not the practice so much. So it seems like the choice, for most women, is to stay single, or marry the kind of guy who thinks he’s for equality but isn’t when he realizes how much work it is, and then beat yourself up for “choosing” a man who tricked you into believing he pulls his own weight.

    @2

    But I would be interested in knowing how that time is broken down. Playing with the kids is hardly a chore but changing diapers and making bottles is. Gee, I wonder which one men are doing more of…

    I can’t find the study right now, but there is one that did a breakdown of tasks, and it’s how you imagine. Fathers, when they do participate, do a lot of “quality time” stuff, playing with the kids, reading to them, and leave the physical chores, such as diaper-changing, feeding, cleaning, to the mothers.

  81. Caperton
    Caperton June 28, 2012 at 10:11 am | *

    The Boy and I have things divided pretty evenly–he cooks and cleans the kitchen, I do the bathroom and vacuum, and we each do our own laundry because we’re grownups and can do our own laundry. I do the dogs, he does the cat. I fluff throw pillows because I’m the only person in the house who cares about fluffy throw pillows.

    He makes considerably more money than I do, but we both work full-time and freelance. The salary difference isn’t because he works harder–it’s just the sucky nature of the economy. We both live in the house, we both contribute to household mess, and I’m not about to try and make up the extra take-home by doing extra chores.

    (It used to be that he did the bathroom and the vacuuming and I did the kitchen, but after he cooks the kitchen looks like he stood back from the stove and threw ingredients at it from a great distance, and I would get really pissed off with having to clean up afterwards, so we switched.)

    The fashion guy monitors the truck driver guy. Bear couples flip for it.

    BWAHAHAHA

  82. DouglasG
    DouglasG June 28, 2012 at 10:15 am |

    [Trufax, seriously. As a lady who married another (much finer than me) lady, we are two years into keeping house together, and I notice this often. Reading these discussions brings it home to me how much we’ve sidestepped by being a same-sex couple. Straight couples make division of labour sound adversarial, in the language they use and their tone. When my wife and I talk about who gets which chores, it’s more like we’re working toward a goal we both want, and less about trying to get away with or prove something.]

    Adversarial is so often just the word. I also think of “punitive” on occasion, and, thanks to your phrasing, wonder whether double-hetero opposite-sex couples manifest adversarial mindsets more often than other F/M couples.

    [The fashion guy monitors the truck driver guy. Bear couples flip for it.]

    But the insider stereotype is that the most macho types have the least masculine-looking homes. I think Michael Tolliver brings this up in one of the Tales of the City novels.

    I’m in agreement with all the points about catching things in the beginning or the previews. My own addition would be not to marry someone whose home one strongly disliked (at least for reasons under the partner’s control).

    With parenting issues, diagnosis might be important. There are some men who just aren’t parenting enough, are perfectly adequate and would only get better with experience. And there are those who, by the time the problem is apparent, should be exposed to innocent and impressionable children, even (or especially) their own, as little as possible. My best friend took fifteen or twenty years longer to end her marriage than she might have done, largely because she calculated that her then-husband saw considerably less of their children than he would if they separated.

  83. Karin
    Karin June 28, 2012 at 10:23 am |

    Letting through Warren’s comment because it hilariously illustrates who not to marry / reproduce with. Apparently reproduction is now asexual, and the kids only belong to the woman.

    Further up he says he is married with children…

  84. Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg)
    Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg) June 28, 2012 at 10:33 am |

    @ whatshername

    I’m not at all sure these numbers proof the gender pay gap is just “a generational thing”. It could just as well be the case that a lot of the factors that contribute to the gender pay gap gain more influence later in the life/career of a person. For example, the pressure on woman to work part time once (if) they have children affects more woman in their mid-thirtees than at the age of 20. Also, the fact that man are more likely to get a raise/promotion has more influence on their salary at 50 than at their first job. Therefore, the fact that woman at 20 make (on average) more or less the same as man of that age doesn’t mean that the problem will just solve itself in a couple of years.

    I agree with this pretty much entirely. The gender pay gap is very, very largely a motherhood gap, and can be partly explained by archaic and unnecessary assumptions and expectations about men’s and women’s roles in life and partly explained by employers’ unwillingness to accommodate pressures of parenthood. I’m not justifying that or even accepting that, I’d very much like it to change.

    But my point is that those archaic assumptions cut both ways. There are a lot of women who still want a man who will be the primary earner, even before they have kids never mind after. And the reality of the workforce is that before people are parents – at the time when they are meeting and dating and settling or marrying – as often as not the woman will be the higher earner and have the better career.

    If we want to change our habits and expectations for how men will behave in the home, we must change our expectations and habits for how men will perform in their careers, they are two sides of the same coin.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ve got to go clean up after the kids, prepare their tea, feed them, bathe them and get them to bed. Their mum won’t be home until after bedtime, she’ll be working late again.

  85. Bridget
    Bridget June 28, 2012 at 10:38 am |

    It seems perhaps I’m the only one here who doesn’t have a partner whose automatic response is to be awesome about all this stuff, LOL. It has been an issue in our marriage. It is getting better, but it takes work. It was an issue in my parents’ marriage (interestingly, after they divorced they both ended up in relationships where things were divided more equally). I am determined that my son NOT grow up seeing unequal division of labor as the norm.

  86. EG
    EG June 28, 2012 at 10:39 am |

    The gender pay gap is very, very largely a motherhood gap….And the reality of the workforce is that before people are parents – at the time when they are meeting and dating and settling or marrying – as often as not the woman will be the higher earner and have the better career.

    Actually, as this study demonstrates, in the US, women one year out of college are, on average, making only 80% of what their male peers make. As you refer to making the kids tea and call their mother their mum, I’m assuming you aren’t in the US; but I’d check the stats for wherever you are before making the above claims.

  87. Pamsc
    Pamsc June 28, 2012 at 10:50 am |

    Equal sharing of household tasks was an agreement when we got married. The main problem we had was that I am efficient and he has ADHD. I thought equal sharing meant doing equal numbers of tasks, but it was hard to maintain that when the same task took him nearly twice as long. I had to give up my standards on some things that really bothered me, in particular that he would listen to books on tape with headphones when he was the one taking care of the kids.

    But the wrinkle I never expected is that just when our kids left home and I was looking forward to being able to focus more on my career, he was diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease and the beginnings of dementia (at age 62). Now I have to do all the housework (except for what I pay someone else to do) and household management, and take care of him as well. This isn’t what I signed on for when I agreed to get married! But he has no family–there is no one else to do it.

  88. Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg)
    Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg) June 28, 2012 at 11:06 am |

    @ EG

    Actually, as this study demonstrates, in the US, women one year out of college are, on average, making only 80% of what their male peers make. As you refer to making the kids tea and call their mother their mum, I’m assuming you aren’t in the US; but I’d check the stats for wherever you are before making the above claims.

    Yeah, as I said above I’m in the UK, and things are slightly different, but not that much.

    The stats here are interesting (I know them well as I’ve been writing about them this week). Among graduates, males are much more likely to be unemployed (about 50% more likely in fact) and also are less likely to have graduated at all, non-graduate males earn less and are less likely to be working at all than non-graduate women.

    However those male graduate who DO have jobs (a minority of a minority) actually earn more than female graduates – exactly as you just described.

    Confusing?

    The best way to think about it is that even before the age of 25, men are polarising into society’s losers and winners to a much greater extent than women. So our society (patriarchy if you like) is still producing the powerful, high-earning elite who will most probably go on to run the companies and countries and all the rest. They are hoovering up the best jobs and the best opportunities and the highest wages, and they are doing that at the expense not only of women, but also of the majority of men.

    That means statistically younger women will be choosing their partners from a relatively small group of men who are doing better than them (in careers, earnings etc), and a larger pool who are doing worse.

    That’s the situation in the UK and I’d be surprised if it was especially different in the US, although I appreciate there are important social and political differences.

    Now excuse me, but I really do have to do those lovely chores, wasn’t joking! Back later

  89. pheenobarbidoll
    pheenobarbidoll June 28, 2012 at 11:08 am |

    Grown ups clean up after themselves. Grown ups no longer need lists of chores or to be reminded of this.

    Grown ups don’t wait until someone else motivates them enough. Grown ups do the jobs that need doing simply because they need doing.

    Grown ups participate in parenting, not babysitting.

    If women don’t have the brains or morals to cut back when they have children in a 2 income familiy then that’s their problem. Remember gals, when you have kids it’s not about you anymore. If you can’t feature that, don’t have kids.

    Then quit sticking your unwrapped dick in her. Grown ups don’t leave birth control to one person, as grown ups understand sex requires 2 people.

  90. roro80
    roro80 June 28, 2012 at 11:12 am |

    “Just let them get gross and then whoever breaks and can’t take the filth first will clean it. ”

    Uh, no. I’m deeply uninterested in playing a game of chore chicken with my partner. I’m not interested in a situation where he spills something but since I’m the one who cares about whether it stains, I have to clean it up. We do not live in a frat house. This is not a chapter of the Lord of the Flies. We’re big boys and girls now, and can put the plates in the damn dishwasher and get the pubic hair off the bathroom floor.

    It’s also important to note that if a straight couple live in a pigsty, it will not be the man who is judged and shamed for the gross state of things when mom and dad come over to visit. It is also not the man who gets the societal message that because cleaning is ladies’ work, living in filth is somehow ok for men. Manly, even. This certainly raises that tolerance for mess and dirty over a lifetime.

    What I’m saying is that I think this argument — whoever can’t stand it should clean it up — is part of the attitude that contributes to the exact problems we’re talking about here.

  91. EG
    EG June 28, 2012 at 11:14 am |

    It’s different in the US. Here, unemployment is slightly higher for men than for women (around half a percent), but the numbers are roughly equal.

  92. With Love
    With Love June 28, 2012 at 11:23 am |

    my grandmother remarked one day she’s very pleased how much men do now compared to the old days so really what are you all complaining about?

    Two problems here.

    1. Your grandmother is not all women.
    2. If I have a goal, and I make some slight progress towards that goal, that doesn’t necessarily mean that I’ve reached my goal. It only means that I’m on my way. While we can acknowledge that the situation has improved, there’s still work to be done.

    Nobody told women to have children, and go work a 9-5 job on top of that.

    Again, two problems.

    1. Nobody? Really? What is this “women can/should have it all!” business about, then?
    2. Some women work out of necessity, to pay the bills. Work is usually not a choice.

    If women don’t have the brains or morals to cut back when they have children in a 2 income familiy then that’s their problem. Remember gals, when you have kids it’s not about you anymore.

    Are you saying here that women are overspending and selfishly overindulging, and that’s why most families have economic problems?

    your 10-11 year old can be doing the babysitting of the younger siblings and the woman can go to work all she likes.

    Individual solutions to systemic problems? Assuming that what works for one household can/should work for all? What’s happening, here?

    checking out whose in the backyard, clearing that massive shit from the toilet

    These are strange examples. For one thing, how often do these things happen? If this is an example of men going above and beyond, you’ve really lowered the bar.

  93. roro80
    roro80 June 28, 2012 at 11:25 am |

    is it necessary to make a comment about it and thank them, or is that just giving unnecessary cookies because mature adults just do their share?

    Particularly in situations where there are kids around, I do think it’s necessary. But from both partners. It’s really good to model thankful behavior for kids. Mom does chore, dad thanks her. Dad does chore, mom thanks him. Kid helps out, parents thank kid.

  94. EG
    EG June 28, 2012 at 11:30 am |

    clearing that massive shit from the toilet

    You mean the super? I didn’t realize that my future partner gets credit for the stuff the super does.

    And as for your grandmother…yes, things are now better than they were 60 years ago. And yet, this massive leap forward is still not enough for some of us. But you know us women, never satisfied.

  95. With Love
    With Love June 28, 2012 at 11:31 am |

    Almost the only suggestion as ridiculous would be the idea that men should be scolded for working long hours and chasing higher incomes instead of being equal parents. Good job nobody has suggeste… oh.

    I’m not interested in scolding men. I’m interested in fighting the systemic problems and misogynist ideas which push men to think that’s the best/right way to go. Instead of scolding men, I’d rather tear apart stereotypes promoting the idea that childcare is women’s work, breadwinning is men’s work, etc. I’d also like to see people not feel trapped into pouring everything into their jobs for little reward.

    Sorry guys, you are wagging fingers at your husbands, boyfriends and partners

    Maybe just start with “you are” or “women are” instead of “guys” next time.

  96. aerin
    aerin June 28, 2012 at 11:43 am |

    My husband’s aunts said he couldn’t last a weekend as a stay-at-home dad. Over the years, I’ve heard a lot of bashing from women of an older generation about men and what they’re capable of (not a lot).

    This is another part of the problem, to my mind.

    Teaching your children how to do household tasks is important (a key part of parenting). Being realistic about your child’s talents is also part of parenting (some kids are better at art than music, etc.) But as a parent, you have a responsibility to make sure your child can be an independent adult and take care of themselves. Why would you teach your child advanced algebra but not trust them with a common household appliance (dishwasher or washing machine)?

    I also have known many older traditional couples where the wife dies and the husband marries soon after. I’m told sometimes it’s because they literally cannot take care of themselves (cooking, laundry, etc.) Fortunately, this trend is changing, but slowly.

    Some days it seems that all a wife really is (for many of these relationships) is a glorified servant. Is that not valuing women’s work?

  97. Mxe354
    Mxe354 June 28, 2012 at 11:54 am |

    Nobody told women to have children, and go work a 9-5 job on top of that.

    Yes, because their necessary, default position is staying at home. They aren’t men, so why should they care about their career aspirations? I mean, no one seriously thinks that women are people, too.

    If women don’t have the brains or morals to cut back when they have children in a 2 income familiy then that’s their problem. Remember gals, when you have kids it’s not about you anymore.

    Hahaha, don’t talk about shit like morality when you’re the one saying that only mothers need to compromise for their families.

  98. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 12:06 pm |

    75% of women in this survey said that they would not be willing to date an unemployed man (32% said no outright, 42% said he had to have a plan in place for getting a job).

    http://news.yahoo.com/75-percent-women-wont-date-unemployed-men-113858283.html

  99. Mxe354
    Mxe354 June 28, 2012 at 12:14 pm |

    75% of women in this survey said that they would not be willing to date an unemployed man (32% said no outright, 42% said he had to have a plan in place for getting a job).

    Your point?

  100. Alexandra
    Alexandra June 28, 2012 at 12:16 pm |

    Ignoring irritating ignorant trolls for the time being, I’d be interested to see how chore-sharing splits up across different types of employment.

    My father is an academic and my mother went to grad school; most of their friends are either dual-academic or dual-career (with one academic) marriages. And academics have an interesting sort of flexibility. That excellent article in the Atlantic (no, not the Wurtzel one) recently delved into this a bit, but I’d love to see more comparison of what dual-career marriages where people are nurses, or in the legal profession, or in small business, looks like —

    because I think really if you want to talk about how to create equality in marriages w/r/t chore-sharing and child-rearing, it helps to have some sort of flexibility. Being an academic was incredibly child-friendly for my father; it meant that he could spend perhaps 20 hours a week physically at the college/university and the rest picking us up from school and supervising our homework (while grading papers and writing his book).

    That said, I remember being told by a visiting lecturer years ago (who was a woman, and a biology professor) that in general academics can choose two of these three goals: to be a good teacher, to publish high-quality research and frequently, or to be a committed spouse and parent.

    In some ways I think the ideal career set-up is for both partners to have the flexibility that when one needs to gear up at work, the other can down shift and spend more time at home, with reciprocity over the span of a marriage and a career. Strict reciprocity every day every year isn’t really workable – there have been times, for instance, when my father has had to travel a lot to conferences and so on, and my mother picked up the slack. My parents’ marriage is far from ideal, career equality included, but still.

    My first biology professor – a 70ish guy who told me that in the 60s he realized the best way to attract good researchers to his podunk state school biology department was to hire overlooked female talent – counseled me not to marry or have kids until I finished my education and was established in my career. Advice I’d heard every day of my life since I was thirteen, practically. Sad, that.

  101. pheenobarbidoll
    pheenobarbidoll June 28, 2012 at 12:19 pm |

    Oh noes dungone! Women are paid less but by god men aren’t getting DATES!! How ever the fuck do you handle such awful discrimination?

    The horror! Men might have to masturbate instead of getting laid!! The injustice!!!

    We should all be ashamed. Talking about work equality and finances when the serious issues like who will date unemployed men is at stake.

  102. pheenobarbidoll
    pheenobarbidoll June 28, 2012 at 12:22 pm |

    my grandmother remarked one day she’s very pleased how much men do now compared to the old days so really what are you all complaining about?

    When your job is to clean the septic tank, cleaning the toilet is an upgrade.

    It’s still cleaning up shit.

  103. A.Y. Siu
    A.Y. Siu June 28, 2012 at 12:35 pm |

    Is the issue really one of employment v. unemployment? Almost all stay-at-home-parents I know were employed before they had kids, regardless of gender.

  104. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 12:38 pm |

    No, dungone. One study by sociologist Sampson Lee Blair reveals that even when women work and the husbands are unemployed, she still does most of the housework. Also, women who make more money than their partners do the most housework of all. Another sociologist, Tichenoro, noticed this curious phenomenon, “gender deviance neutralization”, which is the psychological work couples do to maintain the gendered norms. The cultural expectation of what it is to be a good wife is a strong influence on gendered roles. It is not just a rational, if unfair, division of labour.

    I’ve seen similar studies (not sure if they were the ones you cited) and found them lacking for several reasons. One, they failed to account for things such as depression which affects unemployed men much more than women. So they found a depressed guy who was struggling to find work and being pressured into it by his wife, and compared him to an unemployed housewife who felt no stigma against staying at home to raise kids. Divorce always looms very heavily over a guys’ head if he doesn’t get back on the horse and go off to work. It’s very rare for a guy to be able to save his marriage by doing chores around the house, so it’s not a priority. These studies were comparing apples and oranges. It really proves nothing to look at what happens when a man is unemployed for a month or two. It’s not even worth putting in all that effort to work out a completely new lifestyle, which can be a stressful. Similarly, they didn’t consider the dynamics of women who are higher earners, who really feel the need to “remind” their husbands that they are the breadwinner (put him down for it)… these studies didn’t account for that. Maybe men are just a little more grateful towards women who hold down the house and care for the kids. If Mother’s Day and Valentine’s Day are any indication, men are generally grateful for what women do, even if the women earn less.

    Also, women can be very territorial around the house… they can give up some of the housework, but only if it’s done their way. These studies and time use surveys generally fail to take that into account as well. As a man, I don’t want to “help” around the house or “babysit,” and I can personally attest to feeling dejected due to domineering attitudes around the house. I have lived with girlfriends who were actually quite messier than me, where it was my apartment that I had always maintained and she had moved into, but suddenly all the normal things that I would do were “wrong” and she would angrily snatch stuff out of my hands to do it herself. It’s something that, when I think about it, makes it seem amazing that men in those situations continue to do any housework at all.

  105. Julia
    Julia June 28, 2012 at 12:50 pm |

    @Esti, thank you for your response to Redstocking Grandma. Just thank you. My parents worked full time, I was in day care, and frankly, I was young and just thrilled to have paste to eat.

  106. Mxe354
    Mxe354 June 28, 2012 at 12:54 pm |

    Also, women can be very territorial around the house… they can give up some of the housework, but only if it’s done their way.

    Is that merely because of being controlling or because, when their partners try to help, they make more mistakes due to their unfamiliarity with housework?

  107. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 12:56 pm |

    Oh noes dungone! Women are paid less but by god men aren’t getting DATES!! How ever the fuck do you handle such awful discrimination?

    The horror! Men might have to masturbate instead of getting laid!! The injustice!!!

    We should all be ashamed. Talking about work equality and finances when the serious issues like who will date unemployed men is at stake.

    You got it wrong (laughably so). Men will do whatever is asked of them. If women demand that they work harder and earn more, then they will. They earn more because they work harder, doing different work. So you get what you ask for. Start divorcing men for not doing the chores instead of divorcing them for not having a job. You’ll see a sea change.

  108. Lolagirl
    Lolagirl June 28, 2012 at 12:58 pm |

    Also, women can be very territorial around the house… they can give up some of the housework, but only if it’s done their way.

    Nonsense. My kids try this crap logic on me too, I’m going to clean the floor my way (insert foot stomp) stop telling me what to do! Seriously, what are you, 5 or something? This all just comes down to a childish insistence on not actually doing the task at hand to completion and then getting all butthurt about it. And our society only perpetuates it by calling women nitpicky, nagging shrews and giving men a pass to shrug their shoulders and walk away because their poor little man brains just can’t possibly rise to the occasion.

    As a man, I don’t want to “help” around the house or “babysit,” and I can personally attest to feeling dejected due to domineering attitudes around the house.

    Again with the boohoo, why are you making me do stuff, and make these annoying kids stop bugging me, I just want to sit on the couch and play on the Wii.

    Look, it’s actually quite simple. Don’t get into a partnered relationship, and by all means do no bring children into the picture, if you aren’t willing to do the crap that inescapably needs to get done as a result. It’s not like some random stranger knocked you over the head and dragging you home with them to make you clean up around the house and take care of their kids. If they had, then you would need to seek help that is beyond the purpose of this website.

  109. Julia
    Julia June 28, 2012 at 1:07 pm |

    Wait, wait — Warren was serious? I thought that whole thing was a joke.

    Eh, let’s just treat it like one.

  110. Dan_Brodribb
    Dan_Brodribb June 28, 2012 at 1:13 pm |

    @Pamsc at comment 97. That sounds tough. My heart goes out to you.

    As a guy who is improving, but still often falls short both in the amount and quality of housework I do, I just wanted to say thanks to those of you that do take the time to appreciate our efforts.

    I understand it can be frustrating for you. I also realize you don’t have to and shouldn’t have to do it, but the fact that you do take the time to appreciate our efforts makes a big difference and it’s greatly appreciated.

  111. Donna L
    Donna L June 28, 2012 at 1:18 pm |

    Men will do whatever is asked of them.

    And you seriously believe this.

  112. With Love
    With Love June 28, 2012 at 1:28 pm |

    Also, women can be very territorial around the house… they can give up some of the housework, but only if it’s done their way.

    Women in general are territorial, demanding, and controlling? Men aren’t? Why is this gendered? Some people are, some people aren’t. Some women are controlling about housework. So are some men. This is an issue of “people who are controlling,” not “women.”

    Men will do whatever is asked of them.

    Does this blog come with a laugh track?

  113. roro80
    roro80 June 28, 2012 at 1:46 pm |

    Men will do whatever is asked of them.

    Ah, what good boys those men are, always doing what mommy tells them.

    Seriously, those of us who want children do generally have them. Expecting our partners to be adults instead of children who need to be told to clean up their rooms and do their homework is not, in my opinion, asking too much.

  114. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 1:49 pm |

    Is that merely because of being controlling or because, when their partners try to help, they make more mistakes due to their unfamiliarity with housework?

    I doubt that’s the case more often than not. People have different strengths and weaknesses, to be sure, and different priorities for what’s important. You can always find something that the other person did that wasn’t to your liking. That doesn’t mean they’re not contributing just as much overall. As I said, in my experience, I am cleaner than most mortals (I consistently “won” field day inspections in the Marines – the kind where someone checks for dust under your fridge with a white glove. I would think of extra stuff to do, like waxing and polishing the plastic baseboards… I would sleep on the floor the night before to make extra time for scrubbing the toilet instead of putting perfect 45 degree hospital creases into my bunk.) When I say that I am way cleaner than my girlfriend, I mean by a long shot. She would often joke about how just walking into my apartment and putting her stuff down would make it look like a tornado ripped through the place versus how clean it was when she got there. Then she moved in and I spent half of my existence pulling her hair out of my shower drain. That still didn’t stop her from snapping shit out of my hands and telling me I was doing it wrong, or telling me to go sit back down when I was trying to help, only to tell me that she felt like I only wanted her around so she could cook me dinner.

  115. Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg)
    Ally Fogg (@AllyFogg) June 28, 2012 at 1:49 pm |

    @WithLove (105)

    I’m not interested in scolding men. I’m interested in fighting the systemic problems and misogynist ideas which push men to think that’s the best/right way to go.

    I’m very glad to hear it. But I wasn’t addressing you way back then, I was gently parodying Jill, who was interested in scolding men, or more accurately, calling upon men to scold each other.

    Should clarify (again) that I have no problem with JF – I like her articles, I think she’s a very humane and insightful commentator, and she’s written beautifully in the past about men and women building mutually supportive relationships. I also said right back at the beginning that I don’t think anything she says here is especially wrong at heart – I’ve just been pointing out that it’s presenting an exclusively gynocentric viewpoint on a issue that is really not only about women’s problems and men’s flaws, but goes much, much deeper.

  116. Mxe354
    Mxe354 June 28, 2012 at 1:56 pm |

    I doubt that’s the case more often than not. People have different strengths and weaknesses, to be sure, and different priorities for what’s important. You can always find something that the other person did that wasn’t to your liking. That doesn’t mean they’re not contributing just as much overall.

    Given that women generally do most of the housework – for whatever reason – I’m inclined to say that it’s very often the case because it implies that men aren’t as familiar with doing housework.

  117. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 1:58 pm |

    Nonsense. My kids try this crap logic on me too, I’m going to clean the floor my way (insert foot stomp) stop telling me what to do! Seriously, what are you, 5 or something?

    When I actually meet a woman who is as clean and organized as I am, then we’ll talk. But I haven’t met one yet, not even my own mother. No matter – when you want someone to do 50% of the work, you don’t get to tell them how to do it. CHILDREN are there to “help”, husbands aren’t there to “help” you with your responsibility, they’re there to do their share of the work. If they don’t tell you how to do your job, then you better quit telling them how to do theirs. Because that’s the problem that I’m talking about. Very territorial. Just the fact that you would think of treating your husband as you would a child is reason enough for him to just leave the whole thing in your hands and ignore your wants.

  118. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 2:00 pm |

    Men will do whatever is asked of them. If women demand that they work harder and earn more, then they will.

    It’s as if the trope of the nag/shrew doesn’t exist.

    Also, pointing to surveys of women who say they will not date unemployed men (or will not date them unless they have some kind of plan to find work) is not at all the same as proving that women will divorce their husbands if they don’t work.

    But you do seem to have difficulty with the logical leaps.

  119. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 2:01 pm |

    Given that women generally do most of the housework – for whatever reason – I’m inclined to say that it’s very often the case because it implies that men aren’t as familiar with doing housework.

    Housework generally isn’t that complicated and women don’t always know how to do it best. I had to teach my girlfriend about the right chemicals to use for stain removal, for instance, and things like how to remove blood or oil from clothing. She didn’t know, I did. Yet she was very domineering and bought into the whole “women do it best” stereotype.

  120. valentifan69
    valentifan69 June 28, 2012 at 2:03 pm |

    A woman who gets a PhD in the humanities is going to spend several years earning less than 20K and then, once hired at the PhD level, will be earning significantly less than a man with a BA who has chosen to enter another white-collar career, and most women who get PhDs get them in the humanities.

    I would agree completely with this.

    I don’t really get the complaint though. I don’t see why a PhD should expect to out earn someone with a BA, or think that’s why people do PhDs. It’s kinda obvious that after doing a BA and working and doing a CPA or another professional qualification you’re going to be better off financially than if you had done a PhD. People who focus on making money make money, people who focus on academia for the sake of it don’t. Can’t see why there’s the outrage.

  121. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 2:04 pm |

    …is not at all the same as proving that women will divorce their husbands if they don’t work.

    That’s right and I apologize. Other surveys/statistics prove that. It’s pretty much common knowledge, so please look into it yourself if you’re really not aware of it.

  122. Esti
    Esti June 28, 2012 at 2:08 pm |

    Dungone, please stop extrapolating from your personal experience of having a girlfriend who was bad at housework and snapped at you for doing it wrong to all women and men everywhere.

  123. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 2:08 pm |
    Men will do whatever is asked of them.

    Does this blog come with a laugh track?

    Men know that women can complain about the housework until the cows come home, they still won’t leave a man over it. It’s about women voting their feet. Any guy worth his salt knows that if he wants to have his pick of the litter, the very best thing he can do is earn a lot of money.

  124. Lauren M
    Lauren M June 28, 2012 at 2:13 pm |

    In response to anyone bringing up issues of flexibility in work schedules and how to divide housework evenly when one person works longer hours than the other: I cannot comment on childcare as we do not have children (besides our fur babies) but my fiance works significantly more hours than I do. I do a lot more of the little day to day, let’s not let things build up into a giant mess cleaning stuff and he takes it seriously that on Saturday when he has the day off that he is going to spend a few hours cleaning. It’s a nice compromise. I don’t let it get too crazy gross during the week, so when he deep cleans he doesn’t have to declutter or do piddly little things to get to what he really needs to do. I think that if you have two partners who are both equally investing their time in having a nice life, you can come to a compromise that works best for you. For us, it’s not about tit-for-tat chores, because that doesn’t make sense for our schedules.

    I don’t have this problem, because I actually make more an hr. than he does (which affords me the ability to work less) but I have witnessed the whole “you make less money than I do, so do more around the house to make up the difference.” and besides the fact that thinking like that is total bullshit, it has been my experience that no amount of housework will make you equal in the eyes of someone who is using that type of logic. First of all, just because I make more hourly than my partner doesn’t mean I work harder. Just because someone is working hard in a lower-paying field, doesn’t mean they aren’t putting in as much effort as you are. My first impulse would be to run screaming away from anyone who didn’t respect the work that I do as equal to the work that they do regardless of paychecks. I would also like to think that I am not being assessed by my earning potential as my only valued traits. If someone thinks that you don’t have an equal say in your relationship because you don’t make equal money, FUCK THEM.

  125. Lolagirl
    Lolagirl June 28, 2012 at 2:19 pm |

    CHILDREN are there to “help”, husbands aren’t there to “help” you with your responsibility, they’re there to do their share of the work. If they don’t tell you how to do your job, then you better quit telling them how to do theirs. Because that’s the problem that I’m talking about. Very territorial. Just the fact that you would think of treating your husband as you would a child is reason enough for him to just leave the whole thing in your hands and ignore your wants.

    Wait, whut?

    Reading comprehension fail, you have it, Dungone.

    I treat my children like children, because they are children. My husband has nothing to do with this conversation because I didn’t take issue with his carrying his own weight at all in my comment. You were the one complaining about how you don’t want to do anything around the house ever, which is why I pointed up how you are acting like a child.

    Thanks for reinforcing the conclusion by stomping around some more, refusing to take responsibility for your own words, and leveling unfounded accusations around.

  126. ASH
    ASH June 28, 2012 at 2:32 pm |

    “Housework generally isn’t that complicated and women don’t always know how to do it best.”

    If it isn’t complicated, why does it seem that so many men fail at doing it?

    You keep trotting out your one girlfriend as an example of how ALL women have it wrong because in your experience, you were cleaner than her.

    There are a group of women on here telling you about their experiences. I can tell you in every single relationship that I have been in, I was the cleaner person. He was not incapable, he just had to feel like it, not have a hobby he wanted to instead, not be depressed, not be tired, had to be reminded again and again and again and again, wanted praise, etc.

    Every single one of them.

    I say “he” because all men I dated or lived with including the one I married, were/are like this.

    The sad thing is that I feel LUCKY because he probably still does a ton more than any of my friends boyfriends/husbands. I STILL DO MORE and I follow through to completion on a task.

    Part of the problem is that women often have to do the most boring, mind numbing, menial tasks in general. Alot of men are all too happy to let their wives tend to housework while they can focus on something “fun”. I would prefer to do something fun as well, but sometimes, you MUST do the dishes, including and up to the washing, not just letting them “soak”.

  127. roro80
    roro80 June 28, 2012 at 2:33 pm |

    WTF on the MRA invasion today? Jeez…

  128. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 2:36 pm |

    That’s right and I apologize. Other surveys/statistics prove that. It’s pretty much common knowledge, so please look into it yourself if you’re really not aware of it.

    Hey, you plead it, you prove it.

    But for me, there’s a big difference between a partner who is unemployed but is both looking for work and still carries his share of the housework and a partner who is unemployed and neither picks up after himself nor bothers to look for work. What’s the point in staying married to the latter, if all signs point to no improvement?

  129. ASH
    ASH June 28, 2012 at 2:37 pm |

    “Any guy worth his salt knows that if he wants to have his pick of the litter, the very best thing he can do is earn a lot of money.”

    Pick of the litter. WOW. You just keep getting better and BETTER!

  130. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 2:48 pm |

    Pick of the litter. WOW. You just keep getting better and BETTER!

    Why? For using a completely innocuous idiom in a completely non-gendered way?

  131. Mxe354
    Mxe354 June 28, 2012 at 2:50 pm |

    Any guy worth his salt knows that if he wants to have his pick of the litter, the very best thing he can do is earn a lot of money.

    You can at least try to act like you’re not a sexist dipshit.

  132. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 2:50 pm |

    Reading comprehension fail, you have it, Dungone.

    I got a perfect 800 on my verbal SAT’s, so I doubt it. Nice ad-hom, though. Moving on…

  133. Mxe354
    Mxe354 June 28, 2012 at 2:52 pm |

    I got a perfect 800 on my verbal SAT’s, so I doubt it. Nice ad-hom, though. Moving on…

    You don’t know what an ad hominem attack is.

  134. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 2:54 pm |

    You can at least try to act like you’re not a sexist dipshit.

    Oh my god! Men have standards and want to find a decent wife! How fucking sexist is that, right? Why is it okay for women to say they want a guy who meets certain criteria cos “what’s wrong with standards mmm kay?” but when a man says it, it’s sexism?

  135. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 2:55 pm |

    You don’t know what an ad hominem attack is.

    Hahahahahaha! Good one, I like it.

  136. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza June 28, 2012 at 2:58 pm |

    Start divorcing men for not doing the chores instead of divorcing them for not having a job. You’ll see a sea change.

    I literally giggled, yet i have no idea why.

  137. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 3:00 pm |

    Hey, you plead it, you prove it.

    http://news.menshealth.com/lose-your-job-lose-your-wife/2011/06/28/

    Look, coming from a woman who purportedly is interested in gender issues, asking for citations on basic issues such as divorce is like bozo the clown asking for proof that he’s got a red nose.

  138. roro80
    roro80 June 28, 2012 at 3:04 pm |

    Men have standards and want to find a decent wife!

    Yes, just like a puppy! You pick them, and then they belong to you! Find the best one in the litter! Pick me! Pick me!

  139. With Love
    With Love June 28, 2012 at 3:04 pm |

    No matter how you slice it up men will perform badly in most situations.

    What?

    (Yet it’s *feminists* who hate men, right?)

  140. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza June 28, 2012 at 3:06 pm |

    “Housework generally isn’t that complicated and women don’t always know how to do it best.”

    If it isn’t complicated, why does it seem that so many men fail at doing it?

    Is that a rhetorical question? It’s sort of obvious, the answer to it, isn’t it?

  141. Mxe354
    Mxe354 June 28, 2012 at 3:07 pm |

    Hahahahahaha! Good one, I like it.

    That person merely said that you didn’t comprehend what they said. That’s not an ad hominem attack.

  142. Kierra
    Kierra June 28, 2012 at 3:13 pm |

    From the article you just cited:

    Contributing to the housework helps marriages survive; 62 percent of adults say sharing household chores is important in keeping a marriage together, according to a survey by the Pew Research Center.

  143. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 3:14 pm |

    Yes, just like a puppy! You pick them, and then they belong to you! Find the best one in the litter! Pick me! Pick me!

    Pick of the litter is idiomatic. It literally means getting the most desirable one. It’s not gendered or demeaning in any way. It just meant “the most desirable woman.” Literally nothing more than that. You’re blowing this way out of proportion. A local radio station once had a segment called “Pick Of The Litter” where listeners would vote in on their favorite song.

    The best of a group, as in He was first in the ticket line so he had the pick of the litter. This term, alluding to the most desirable one from a litter of puppies or kittens, supplanted such earlier variants as pick of the market, pick of the parish, and pick of the basket. [Early 1900s]

    http://idioms.yourdictionary.com/pick-of-the-litter

  144. librarygoose
    librarygoose June 28, 2012 at 3:21 pm |

    Damn, Dungone. Another thing you’re better at than every woman ever. You should teach a class called, “Mopping and Idioms, why you all suck.”

  145. ASH
    ASH June 28, 2012 at 3:25 pm |

    You forgot the PERFECT 800 on verbal comprehension on his SATs!

  146. pheenobarbidoll
    pheenobarbidoll June 28, 2012 at 3:25 pm |

    Men will do whatever is asked of them.

    Ok-

    Do the housework correctly without having to be asked, reminded, nagged, begged or given a list like you’re a 10 year old.

    While you’re at it- put a stop to the wage gap.

    I’ll wait.

  147. Donna L
    Donna L June 28, 2012 at 3:28 pm |

    Clearly, Dungone has replaced the Dos Equiis guy as the most interesting man in the world. When do we get to see his commercials?

  148. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 3:28 pm |
    From the article you just cited:

    Contributing to the housework helps marriages survive; 62 percent of adults say sharing household chores is important in keeping a marriage together, according to a survey by the Pew Research Center.

    Yes, and it’s still a one sided expectation that only applies to men, which is part of the problem.

    And also from the article:

    But guys can’t realistically expect “homemaker” alone to substitute for a satisfying career any more than their wives would, cautions Stephanie Coontz, Ph.D, the author of Marriage, A History.

    But the poll about housework was about marriage in general, not just about being unemployed. It doesn’t actually say that doing more housework will do anything to help after a job loss. That poll could actually be nothing more than a reflection of the gendered stereotypes about men not doing enough, when in fact they could be working just as hard.

    Also from the same article (coutners Debra at #69):

    the unemployed spend an extra hour asleep each day and a quarter of their waking hours watching TV

    That’s both men and women. Meaning, women who lose their jobs do the same exact thing. But men don’t divorce them for it. So your advice that men should get off their butts to do more to save their marriage after a job loss is still an extremely gendered expectation.

  149. librarygoose
    librarygoose June 28, 2012 at 3:30 pm |

    You forgot the PERFECT 800 on verbal comprehension on his SATs!

    Nah, I got an 800 too. There’s no praise for doing things that ladies can do too.

  150. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 3:31 pm |

    Do the housework correctly without having to be asked, reminded, nagged, begged or given a list like you’re a 10 year old.

    Yes, I agree. Stop doing all of those things and suddenly your relationship will improve. How many times have you been divorced, by the way?

  151. bleh
    bleh June 28, 2012 at 3:32 pm |

    “I don’t see why a PhD should expect to out earn someone with a BA, or think that’s why people do PhDs”

    I don’t see why an MD should make more money than a person with a BA in health either.

  152. ASH
    ASH June 28, 2012 at 3:38 pm |

    “Yes, I agree. Stop doing all of those things and suddenly your relationship will improve.”

    Are you effing serious?The only person it would “improve” for would be the adult who behaves like a 10 year old instead of an adult. The person who would then have to carry more of the load would be miserable?

    “How many times have you been divorced, by the way?”

    And what does that have to do with anything? The person being nagged for not doing their share has it worse than the person doing everyone’s share.

    How many times have you been married, Prince Charming?

    I’m sure that this little sexist trope you’ve got going on is like *so awesome* with your buddies, but it is kind of stale.

  153. roro80
    roro80 June 28, 2012 at 3:39 pm |

    Pick of the litter is idiomatic. It literally means getting the most desirable one

    Oh honey, it wasn’t a lack of understanding of what you were saying that made me offended. That’s cute though. Since we’re evidently substituting test scores for actual arguments: I got a Star+ on the 1st grade English exam where we learned what “pick of the litter” means. Your very special score seems to be pretty useless in understanding anything about life, as evidenced by your difficulty in comprehending why your idiom — even though not literal! being an idiom! — is still really fucking sexist and offensive.

  154. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 3:46 pm |

    And what does that have to do with anything? The person being nagged for not doing their share has it worse than the person doing everyone’s share.

    Although being an ad hominem in nature, it’s relevant because I wouldn’t want to take relationship advice from serial divorcees. I’ve got good reasons.

  155. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 3:47 pm |

    How many times have you been married, Prince Charming?

    Most of my ex’s are divorced. I take pride in not having married them.

  156. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 3:54 pm |

    Look, coming from a woman who purportedly is interested in gender issues, asking for citations on basic issues such as divorce is like bozo the clown asking for proof that he’s got a red nose.

    Oh, pumpkin. You’re just darling.

    You’re especially cute when you cite Men’s Health as a reliable source for sociological research.

  157. ASH
    ASH June 28, 2012 at 3:55 pm |

    You’re assuming they are divorced because they nagged, not because they got tired of picking up after a grown man.

    I wouldn’t take advice from anyone who suggested that the person acting like a child in a relationship has it worse than the adult who has to be an adult for TWO people.

  158. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 3:57 pm |

    Also? You fail at argument if you think that you’re not required to provide evidence you cite and instead expect the person you’re trying to convince to find it themselves lest they feel your scorn.

  159. oxygengrrl
    oxygengrrl June 28, 2012 at 4:00 pm |

    Just as a counter to the folks upthread arguing that men are incapable of doing their share. Not the ones I’ve lived with. I know others have said similar things, but I’ve lived with two dudes (romantically) and a range of dudes and ladies (nonromantically) in my adult life. I’m a lady. I’ve never done the lion’s share of the housework in any shared home.

    First dude did more than I did, because he was neater and pickier (and thought I was incompetent at this stuff, which, by his standards, I was). With the second dude, we operated on the “whoever’s annoyed first” principle for shared space/materials (turns out I can live with a dirty bathroom longer, while he could live with more dust bunny proliferation).

    But we also knew that if someone’s t-shirt is in the middle of the floor, that someone will probably eventually pick it up, because it’s both their t-shirt and their floor. No need to do it for them, no need to nag. And if it sits there for a while, whatever. It’s a t-shirt on the floor, not a dead body.

  160. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 4:09 pm |

    You’re especially cute when you cite Men’s Health as a reliable source for sociological research.

    They literally interviewed a female researcher from Ohio State University about a study she conducted. Feel free to dig deeper if you you don’t trust anything with the word “Men” in it. Besides, it was literally the first Google result. Look up any information about why people get divorced and you’ll see men’s unemployment prominently on the list. This is silly and ridiculous – I’ve had enough of arguing with people who ask me to prove that the sky is blue.

  161. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 4:11 pm |

    You’re assuming they are divorced because they nagged, not because they got tired of picking up after a grown man.

    Actually, I’m assuming that divorcees aren’t very good at making choices or having realistic expectations. One of the best indicators of someone who will get divorced in the future is when they’ve already been divorced in the past.

  162. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 4:19 pm |

    Also? You fail at argument if you think that you’re not required to provide evidence you cite and instead blah blah blah…

    These are comments on a blog, not phd dissertations. The “prove it” tactic is often employed in bad faith by people who know fully well that you are right, but don’t want to admit it. After you give them their desired citation, they still won’t admit that you were perfectly in the right for having mentioned it – they’ll just find more excuses and never bother to provide any citations of their own that would contradict yours. Same old story, seen it on the interwebs a million times by now – not just on feminist blogs.

  163. EG
    EG June 28, 2012 at 4:29 pm |

    I don’t see why a PhD should expect to out earn someone with a BA, or think that’s why people do PhDs. It’s kinda obvious that after doing a BA and working and doing a CPA or another professional qualification you’re going to be better off financially than if you had done a PhD. People who focus on making money make money, people who focus on academia for the sake of it don’t. Can’t see why there’s the outrage.

    1) You’ll note the comparison is not people with BAs to people with PhDs. It’s men with BAs to women with PhDs. Now, according to the charts I found and linked to above, however, they don’t. They outearn women with MAs. But, and this is important, they don’t outearn men with MAs. So the proposed explanation you offer doesn’t work.

    2) It’s annoying because most other professions that require graduate degrees and advanced study, i.e. postponing your working years, are remunerated at a higher rate than professions that require BAs only. (MDs and JDs are also doctorates, by the way.) It says something about our cultural values that we compensate study at a significantly lower rate.

    Most of my ex’s are divorced. I take pride in not having married them.

    I feel confident that I speak for the divorcees of the world when I heave a great sigh of relief. What kind of adult is under the impression that anybody besides his parents and college admissions committees gives a shit about your SAT scores? Or that SAT scores are an accurate measure of, well, anything?

  164. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 4:42 pm |

    I feel confident that I speak for the divorcees of the world when I heave a great sigh of relief. What kind of adult is under the impression that anybody besides his parents and college admissions committees gives a shit about your SAT scores? Or that SAT scores are an accurate measure of, well, anything?

    Well, I’d say it speaks better of me than being divorced would. And it’s as good a response as any to the ad hominem attacks on my reading comprehension.

  165. librarygoose
    librarygoose June 28, 2012 at 4:47 pm |

    Well, I’d say it speaks better of me than being divorced would.

    No it doesn’t. Considering how many people in the US have been divorced, being a pompous douche who thinks SAT scores mean anything after high school gives way more insight.

  166. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 28, 2012 at 4:57 pm |

    Well, I’d say it speaks better of me than being divorced would.

    LOL. Divorce? SAT scores?

    Does this guy know how many times Einstein married?

  167. pheenobarbidoll
    pheenobarbidoll June 28, 2012 at 5:08 pm |

    Clearly, Dungone has replaced the Dos Equiis guy as the most interesting man in the world. When do we get to see his commercials?

    HA!

    How many times have you been divorced, by the way?

    Zero. Widowed once, remarried and have remained so. My husband acts like an adult when it comes to house work. Good thing too because if he acted like a child, well…I don’t marry children and I certainly don’t fuck them.

  168. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 5:12 pm |

    I don’t see why a PhD should expect to out earn someone with a BA, or think that’s why people do PhDs. It’s kinda obvious that after doing a BA and working and doing a CPA or another professional qualification you’re going to be better off financially than if you had done a PhD.

    QFT, given the right major. Picking a good line of work is far more important than getting an advanced degree if you care about earning money. A CPA or a CFA are great examples of non-academic tests that require rigorous study and are extremely well compensated, which are sought after by men but are not taken into consideration by people who compare academic credentials.

    You’ll note the comparison is not people with BAs to people with PhDs. It’s men with BAs to women with PhDs. Now, according to the charts I found and linked to above, however, they don’t. They outearn women with MAs. But, and this is important, they don’t outearn men with MAs.

    Men with MAs usually take similar majors to men with BAs, which is why they would actually make more. Average salary for a phd in physical therapy is around 90k. Average salary for a guy with a bachelor’s and a CFA is around 500k. In some professions, work experience and professional certifications count for a lot more than an academic degree. In some cases, like technology, private corporations are working on things that universities could only dream of being able to finance. I face that conundrum – the GI Bill would pay for my graduate degree but I literally can’t find one that wouldn’t be 2 years of my time with no better earning potential as a result. So instead, I’m saving the benefits for my wife, should I get married. In other cases, you can get a Master’s or a PhD and make more than the average, but it still won’t get you a higher salary than the people who just happen to be really good at what they do. So you have more of a drive for mediocre people to get a higher degree while the advanced people just don’t see a benefit.

  169. Bagelsan
    Bagelsan June 28, 2012 at 5:14 pm |

    Or that SAT scores are an accurate measure of, well, anything?

    They measure how good you are at taking the SAT! Not exactly a life skill after age 18, but let him have his little joys. ^^

  170. chava
    chava June 28, 2012 at 5:21 pm |

    If Mother’s Day and Valentine’s Day are any indication, men are generally grateful for what women do, even if the women earn less.

    Wow, just…wow. I’ll take the money over the bad brunch, thanks.

    Anecdotally–I do notice that I have to consistently stop myself falling into the gendered nagging of the spouse. He cleans his way, I clean my way–both are fine. With the baby, I really watch my own behavior to ensure I never critique or correct his choices. And I do think women lose themselves a lot of potential help this way.

    HOWEVER, the fact that men are free to respond to that sort of nagging/gendered behavior by just not doing the work speaks to privilege. As does the fact that women have been socialized into believing that they are somehow innately destined to be better at housework and childcare.

  171. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 5:22 pm |

    They literally interviewed a female researcher from Ohio State University about a study she conducted. Feel free to dig deeper if you you don’t trust anything with the word “Men” in it.

    Oh, you misunderstand my objection. Men’s Health is a perfectly fine source of information on men’s lifestyle concerns, but as a means of proving what you’re trying to prove? Not so much.

    Here’s a hint: the study itself is better than an interview in a popular magazine about the study. Since they interview the researcher, why not go the extra step and look up the study itself?

    Besides, it was literally the first Google result. Look up any information about why people get divorced and you’ll see men’s unemployment prominently on the list.

    For someone who claims to “little to no tolerance for people who are anti-science and anti-medicine,” surely you’d want to actually look at the results of an actual study, rather than simply relying on what a men’s mag with beefcake on the cover has to say about it? After all, you wouldn’t want to fall into the fallacy of equating correlation with causation, right? Because even if divorce is correlated with male unemployment, that doesn’t mean that the unemployment itself was the precipitating cause of the divorce.

    And are you that ignorant of how Google works?

    This is silly and ridiculous – I’ve had enough of arguing with people who ask me to prove that the sky is blue.

    So you just want us to accept your bald assertions as fact. How anti-scientific of you.

  172. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 5:23 pm |

    No it doesn’t. Considering how many people in the US have been divorced, being a pompous douche who thinks SAT scores mean anything after high school gives way more insight.

    Spoken from true mediocrity, truly. As I said, I can respond to ad hominem remarks in any way I please. It’s all irrelevant – I’m just humoring the people who have nothing better to say than to make ridiculous insults.

  173. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 5:26 pm |

    These are comments on a blog, not phd dissertations. The “prove it” tactic is often employed in bad faith by people who know fully well that you are right, but don’t want to admit it. After you give them their desired citation, they still won’t admit that you were perfectly in the right for having mentioned it – they’ll just find more excuses and never bother to provide any citations of their own that would contradict yours. Same old story, seen it on the interwebs a million times by now – not just on feminist blogs.

    Oh, you are pwecious!

    Let me pinch your widdle cheeks.

  174. EG
    EG June 28, 2012 at 5:27 pm |

    Criticizing your reading comprehension isn’t an ad hominem attack; telling you you’re wrong because you’re a dipshit is an ad hominem attack. Condemning your reading comprehension is simply based on your inability to understand other people’s statements.

    I know many fine people who are divorced. I know nobody who still depends on their SAT scores in order to bolster their confidence in their intellects. I knew one woman in grad school who went on about her GRE scores, but everybody else rolled their eyes at her, and she was fairly insufferable. Draw your own conclusions.

  175. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 28, 2012 at 5:28 pm |

    So instead, I’m saving the benefits for my wife, should I get married.

    You want to give your wife free couches when she leaves you? Aww, that’s so generous.

  176. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 5:28 pm |

    Spoken from true mediocrity, truly. As I said, I can respond to ad hominem remarks in any way I please. It’s all irrelevant – I’m just humoring the people who have nothing better to say than to make ridiculous insults.

    Dugone wants to live like common people, y’all.

  177. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 5:29 pm |

    Here’s a hint: the study itself is better than an interview in a popular magazine about the study.

    No, it’s called a secondary source and it’s just as valid for our purposes here. I did go to college, thanks. The only thing I have to prove to you is that I’m not making things up, if that. Had you said something to the effect of, “oh, that sounds very interesting, I haven’t heard of that and I would like to review the sources where you have heard about this,” then I would feel much better about entertaining your thinly veiled stonewalling. At this point, I have done more than enough and it is up to you to discredit my source by providing evidence that the source does not support the comments that I made personally.

  178. Fat Steve
    Fat Steve June 28, 2012 at 5:35 pm |

    No it doesn’t. Considering how many people in the US have been divorced, being a pompous douche who thinks SAT scores mean anything after high school gives way more insight.

    I’ll be honest, when I heard George W. Bush’s SAT scores I thought ‘how the fuck could anyone vote for him?’ (again)

  179. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 5:36 pm |

    Criticizing your reading comprehension isn’t an ad hominem attack; telling you you’re wrong because you’re a dipshit is an ad hominem attack.

    And telling you you’re both wrong AND a dipshit? Not ad hom.

  180. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 5:39 pm |

    Criticizing your reading comprehension isn’t an ad hominem attack;

    No, actually, it is ad hominem, but thanks for trying. Besides, a snide, misspelled, grammatically incorrect attack on my reading abilities only points to the accuser’s own writing inabilities. I quote:

    Wait, whut?

    Reading comprehension fail, you have it, Dungone.

    telling you you’re wrong because you’re a dipshit is an ad hominem attack.

    Which seems to b par for the course as far as the comments on this blog… I can’t even tell who is who because all I see is dipshit this, dipshit that, in all the comments.

  181. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 5:40 pm |

    And telling you you’re both wrong AND a dipshit? Not ad hom.

    And inventing things because you want them to be so? Priceless. Leaves a great impression of feminists in my mind.

  182. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 5:41 pm |

    What have I invented, exactly?

  183. EG
    EG June 28, 2012 at 5:42 pm |

    Why don’t you go look it up in a reference manual of rhetorical figures, dear? I’ll be here when you get back.

    Besides, a snide, misspelled, grammatically incorrect attack on my reading abilities only points to the accuser’s own writing inabilities.

    And an inability to recognize the use of the vernacular for rhetorical effect points only to your own failings as a reader, SATs not withstanding.

  184. EG
    EG June 28, 2012 at 5:43 pm |

    Leaves a great impression of feminists in my mind.

    Oh, and we so wanted to impress you favorably. Sadness. Great sadness.

  185. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 5:46 pm |

    What have I invented, exactly?

    Your own definition of ad hominem.

  186. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 5:49 pm |

    As opposed to your definition, which is essentially, “when those nasty wimminz don’t roll over and kiss my ass,” dear?

  187. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 5:49 pm |

    And an inability to recognize the use of the vernacular for rhetorical effect points only to your own failings as a reader, SATs not withstanding.

    No, I get it, trust me. Making oneself sound like a teenybopper doesn’t command respect, nor does it show any.

    Oh, and we so wanted to impress you favorably. Sadness. Great sadness.

    Obviously, constructive discourse is not one of the goals here. No kidding there. I’m glad you speak for everyone, by the way – now I don’t have to ask if everyone else feels the same way.

  188. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 5:52 pm |

    As opposed to your definition, which is essentially, “when those nasty wimminz don’t roll over and kiss my ass,” dear?

    It’s almost as if you’re trying to make yourself out to be vilified somehow. I feel bad even talking to you, I’m afraid you might walk right up on a whipping post and flagellate yourself because I pointed out a couple of your mistakes.

  189. librarygoose
    librarygoose June 28, 2012 at 5:53 pm |

    Spoken from true mediocrity, truly.

    Hey! I can’t be mediocre. I’ll have you know I got a perfect 800 on my verbal SAT. It proves my inability to be wrong about anything.

  190. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 5:55 pm |

    It’s almost as if you’re trying to make yourself out to be vilified somehow. I feel bad even talking to you, I’m afraid you might walk right up on a whipping post and flagellate yourself because I pointed out a couple of your mistakes.

    DUNGONE’S NEVER GOING TO MARRY ME NOW!!!

  191. igglanova
    igglanova June 28, 2012 at 6:02 pm |

    Dungone, you’re just embarrassing yourself at this point. It’s kind of painful, really, but since it’s also funny as hell I guess I could live with a little more.

  192. roro80
    roro80 June 28, 2012 at 6:02 pm |

    It’s ok zuzu, he didn’t pick me from the litter of puppies either! I’ve been crying for hours now.

  193. roro80
    roro80 June 28, 2012 at 6:06 pm |

    Making oneself sound like a teenybopper doesn’t command respect, nor does it show any

    Uh-oh, did someone finally figure out what rhetorical effect was intended? Note: it’s the same intention as those calling you precious and honey and darling. Your arguments are childish, while managing to be pedantic and condescending at the same time. You’ve been given the respect your arguments and tone deserve. If you’re seeing none, maybe there’s a reason for that.

  194. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 6:09 pm |

    It’s ok zuzu, he didn’t pick me from the litter of puppies either! I’ve been crying for hours now.

    Nobody wants the runt.

  195. EG
    EG June 28, 2012 at 6:20 pm |

    Making oneself sound like a teenybopper doesn’t command respect, nor does it show any.

    Whereas priding oneself on having the reading comprehension skills of a bright high-school senior demonstrates maturity and just requires respect.

  196. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 28, 2012 at 6:41 pm |

    I’ve been crying for hours now.

    *offers comforting tea*

  197. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 7:18 pm |

    Whereas priding oneself on having the reading comprehension skills of a bright high-school senior demonstrates maturity and just requires respect.

    It’s all about relating to your audience.

  198. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 7:25 pm |

    It’s all about relating to your audience.

    Big talk from someone who whines about tone.

    Mind, if you find the discourse here disagreeable to you, the door is that way.

  199. Kierra
    Kierra June 28, 2012 at 7:36 pm |

    Yes, and it’s still a one sided expectation that only applies to men

    If by one-sided you mean that women are already expected to do the housework and are the ones judged if it doesn’t get done, versus men who up until very recently were considered doing great if they pitched in every once in a while and not really judged if they left it all up to the wife. It’s “one-sided” because one side isn’t doing their fair share.

    It doesn’t actually say that doing more housework will do anything to help after a job loss.

    It also doesn’t prove your point that housework wouldn’t help. You’re just speculating that the cause of those divorces was just the lack of a job, rather than being caused by the woman realizing that she was the only one in the relationship doing any work (in the home or otherwise) and wondering why she was keeping him around.

    the unemployed spend an extra hour asleep each day and a quarter of their waking hours watching TV

    That’s both men and women. Meaning, women who lose their jobs do the same exact thing.

    They didn’t break that part into gender, so it’s kind of hard to say that for certain. What the Wall Street Journal article did say was:

    On average, women report spending five fewer hours per week on leisure than men, which indicates that although more women are working longer, they haven’t dialed back the time they spend on housework.

    “The fulltime homemaker is disappearing, but men aren’t making up for it with more work,” Mr. Godbey said.

  200. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 7:44 pm |

    Uh-oh, did someone finally figure out what rhetorical effect was intended? Note: it’s the same intention as those calling you precious and honey and darling.

    I get called honey and darling every day of my life, so don’t get your bloomers in a bunch gleefully picturing the special place you’ve taken up in my heart. I do get it – you’re all aping the pigheaded stereotype who you all believe that men are.

  201. ASH
    ASH June 28, 2012 at 7:54 pm |

    Did it ever occur to you that you are being treated like a sexist stereotype because you are behaving like one?
    We do not have to pretend that there are men that behave that way because there is always a troll ready to tell us about our own experiences.
    Today just happened to be your day; your schtick is not special.

  202. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 7:59 pm |

    Did it ever occur to you that you are being treated like a sexist stereotype because you are behaving like one?

    Sounds like something George Zimmerman would say.

  203. tinfoil hattie
    tinfoil hattie June 28, 2012 at 8:07 pm |

    Grown ups no longer need lists of chores or to be reminded of this.

    I never learned the systems and routines for keeping a house clean and orderly. To compound the problem, I have ADD that is most severe in the area of executive function. I do not intuit how to manage a household. It seems incomprehensible to me. I need lists, reminders, how-tos, and hints.

    But I still consider managing the household and housework one of the areas in which I must participate, because I live with other people.

  204. ASH
    ASH June 28, 2012 at 8:09 pm |

    Uh no. Not even close. You are trying to negate the experiences of a marginalized group and because we do not sit by and agree with you DOES NOT make you the victim of a racialized murderer. Jesus Christ.

  205. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 8:19 pm |

    You are trying to negate the experiences of a blah blah blah

    Right. Being a pig is okay if you’re the victim. That’s what they all say .

  206. Mxe354
    Mxe354 June 28, 2012 at 8:21 pm |

    No, actually, it is ad hominem, but thanks for trying. Besides, a snide, misspelled, grammatically incorrect attack on my reading abilities only points to the accuser’s own writing inabilities. I quote:

    No, it’s not an ad hominem.

    An ad hominem argument is a fallacy defined as a personal attack posed as an argument against another’s position.

    For instance:

    Person 1: Smoking is bad for your health.
    Person 2: You can’t possibly be right; you used to smoke yourself!

    Breaking it down further, Person 2’s argument is this:

    P1. Person 1 used to smoke
    C: Smoking is not bad for your health

    This is, technically, a special kind of ad hominem (ad hominem tu quoque), but it’s a good example of an ad hominem in any case.

  207. iiii
    iiii June 28, 2012 at 8:27 pm |

    Tip to Dungone: Citing your very impressive SAT scores indicates that – assuming you even got the scores you claim – you a) are somewhere between 17 and 19 years old, or b) haven’t managed to do anything since the age of 19 that eclipses the glorious memory of those test scores. Neither is very impressive to actual adults. You may wish to keep this in mind the next time you volunteer to be the gameball.

  208. lolzanon
    lolzanon June 28, 2012 at 8:29 pm |

    He doesn’t -always- comment on feminist blogs, but when he does…

  209. Fat Steve
    Fat Steve June 28, 2012 at 8:41 pm |

    Sounds like something George Zimmerman would say.

    Oh, how do you know George Zimmerman?

    Not that I’m surprised, he sounds like the sort of dude you’d pal around with…

  210. With Love
    With Love June 28, 2012 at 8:43 pm |

    You bring up George Zimmerman, and when someone begins to point out how incredibly fucked up that is, you “blah blah” it away?

    At this point, can anyone cling to the notion that you’re commenting in good faith?

  211. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 28, 2012 at 8:48 pm |

    Sounds like something George Zimmerman would say.

    That has to be some sort of race-Godwin, right? o.O

  212. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 8:57 pm |

    An ad hominem argument is a fallacy defined as a personal attack posed as an argument against another’s position.

    Very good job of naming one type of ad hominem. Just for fun, I checked out which website you were just learning about it on (Wikipedia). Given that it lists all the others, including the ones that are prevalent here, including the type that lolagirl used at that moment, I find it amusing that you would actually cherry pick an encyclopedia to find an example that’s least likely to fit. And I wouldn’t have bothered checking except that it bugged me that you couldn’t find the half dozen or so ad-hom things that lolagirl wrote.

    Let me spell it out for you: accusing someone of not being able to read in lieu of arguing against their position is a personal attack. Had she even had a valid argument in the first place, she could have made it by saying something along the lines of, “you’re mistaken about what was said,” or “that’s not what I meant,” or, “let me clarify.”

    But she went right for the verbal abuse – that after calling me a fucking child (ad hom) and completely botching everything that I had actually said (I don’t think she can’t read though – I think she just argues in bad faith):

    You were the one complaining about how you don’t want to do anything around the house ever, which is why I pointed up how you are acting like a child.

    I will send a $100 check to anyone in this thread right now who can quote me as saying that I don’t want to do anything around the house, ever. Hint: what I actually said is that I almost always do more around the house than my girlfriends do, and do it better than they do, but they can still be territorial and domineering – even within my own apartment when they’re there as guests.

  213. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 9:22 pm |

    That has to be some sort of race-Godwin, right? o.O

    No, just pointing out the obvious similarity in rationalization – you seem like one of those people to me, therefore I will vilify you and hate you.

  214. librarygoose
    librarygoose June 28, 2012 at 9:39 pm |

    No, dungone. Not the same. No one has shot you, so just stop with the racist equivalency.

  215. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 28, 2012 at 9:43 pm |

    you seem like one of those people to me, therefore I will vilify you and hate you.

    Seem? Oh, sweetie, no. You are one of those people – if by “those people” one means “misogynistic, misandric, shortsighted, bigoted, ignorant, narrow-minded, blithering chucklefuck of a troll”. We don’t need to assume anything when you’re scattering the largesse of your assminence all over this site as evidence.

  216. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 28, 2012 at 9:47 pm |

    ….or maybe you’re not a troll. In which case I just feel…kinda sorry for you. It must be tiring up on that cross.

  217. Caperton
    Caperton June 28, 2012 at 10:01 pm | *

    “You’re bad at reading comprehension” isn’t ad hominem. It’s a valid assessment of fact when you make a statement that would indicate you didn’t fully understand the assertion you’re purporting to dispute. It’s like “you’re bad at math” if you had an algebrafail. An argument is only ad hominem if it’s irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    Your arguments are not being dismissed because you’re bad at reading comprehension; your arguments demonstrate a failure of reading comprehension, and thus they are being dismissed.

    (Incidentally, I also got 800 on my SAT verbal, but since that was over a decade ago, I figure it doesn’t have a whole lot of influence on my debate capabilities these days.)

  218. Caperton
    Caperton June 28, 2012 at 10:02 pm | *

    Also incidentally, anyone who’s stuck on “sweetie” and “honey” is vastly in need of the Southern rhetorical tactic of blessing someone’s heart. You can say anything about anyone if you bless their heart first.

  219. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 10:47 pm |

    “You’re bad at reading comprehension” isn’t ad hominem. It’s a valid assessment of fact when you make a statement th

    Even if it’s true it’s still an ad hominem. You might be ugly, and I might point it out as a statement of fact in response to you saying something about the way men treat women, but it would still be absolutely, completely ad hominem. Accusing someone of not being able to read what you wrote is not only a personal attack, but it’s a personal opinion rather than any sort of statement of fact. It could be your inability to make your points clearly, your inability to read what they were saying, or, quite frankly, just a baseless attack.

  220. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 10:49 pm |

    No, dungone. Not the same. No one has shot you, so just stop with the racist equivalency.

    Tribal, actually. It was a tribalistic rationalization about a member of an out-group.

  221. librarygoose
    librarygoose June 28, 2012 at 10:57 pm |

    It was fucking racist.

  222. dungone
    dungone June 28, 2012 at 11:02 pm |

    Seem? Oh, sweetie, no. You are one of those people – if by “those people” one means “misogynistic, misandric, shortsighted, bigoted, ignorant, narrow-minded, blithering chucklefuck of a troll”. We don’t need to assume anything when you’re scattering the largesse of your assminence all over this site as evidence.

    Well bless your heart, darling, aren’t you in the most desperate need of a good fuck of any woman I’ve ever seen…

    @Caperton, did I do that right? Not sure where you were really going with that… it’s not really how I would like to make my case, but when in Rome…

  223. Fat Steve
    Fat Steve June 28, 2012 at 11:14 pm |

    Well bless your heart, darling, aren’t you in the most desperate need of a good fuck of any woman I’ve ever seen…

    @Caperton, did I do that right? Not sure where you were really going with that… it’s not really how I would like to make my case, but when in Rome…

    Douchebag.

    Case made.

  224. The Warren
    The Warren June 28, 2012 at 11:43 pm |

    One things for sure, the feminists are really good at spotting bad spelling and grammar. Like who really gives a fuck? Btw chica’s, I stand by what I wrote, even a lowly dudebro such as I knows a little bit about a little bit. I mean I realize I don’t know as much as you since you read so much books, articles, journals, diaries, studies, quotes, etc, etc, and I only have life experience to refer too, but that doesn’t mean I’m gonna stop trying. Did you have to be so mean? I was just trying to help, to understand, to feel……sorry kinda teared up there a little. Anyways girls-keep the vag sand free, nobody likes a whiner.

  225. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 28, 2012 at 11:44 pm |

    Well bless your heart, darling, aren’t you in the most desperate need of a good fuck of any woman I’ve ever seen…

    Tired old misogynistic insult: check.
    Assumption about sex life: check.
    Heteronormativity: check.
    Pitiful ratio of monosyllabic to polysyllabic words: check.
    Incorrect use of “seen” (refer to: The Internet): check.

    Come on, puppykins, you got triple digits on your SAT, you can do better. *encouraging headpats*

  226. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 28, 2012 at 11:44 pm |

    Btw chica’s, I stand by what I wrote, even a lowly dudebro such as I knows a little bit about a little bit.

    This note brought to you by Warren’s boner, his sole area of expertise!

  227. zuzu
    zuzu June 28, 2012 at 11:58 pm |

    Anyways girls-keep the vag sand free

    WHERE WAS I WHEN THEY WERE GIVING OUT VAG SAND FOR FREE? WHY DIDN’T ANYONE TELL ME?

  228. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 29, 2012 at 12:04 am |

    keep the vag sand free

    FREE THE VAG SAND.

    FREE IT NOW YOU PRISON-INDUSTRIAL-COMPLEX-PIMPS.

    I WANT MY VAG SAND.

  229. librarygoose
    librarygoose June 29, 2012 at 12:07 am |

    WHAT DO WE WANT?

    VAG SAND!

  230. librarygoose
    librarygoose June 29, 2012 at 12:07 am |

    WHAT DO WE WANT?

    VAG SAND!

  231. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 29, 2012 at 12:14 am |

    Now that I’ve thought about it, dungone’s diss was really quite lacking in variety. I’m upset and offended.

    I mean, he could have gone with “if only the glorious lubriciousness of your vocabulary extended to your nethers!”

    or “cette belle dame sans merci sure hath her virginity in thrall!”

    or “did you have to light a cigarette after your last pap smear?”

    or “hark, how invitingly the unused dildoes in your closet glisten, like the sun that rises over the ice planets of Aldebaran!”

    Seriously. Come on, is a bit of creativity too much to ask?

  232. Caperton
    Caperton June 29, 2012 at 12:14 am | *

    @Caperton, did I do that right?

    Um, no. Not even close. You’re really bad at this.

    That said, this entire line of discussion could, arguably, constitute a massive derail. More on topic would be, for instance, what Lauren M. said waaay back @134

    Just because someone is working hard in a lower-paying field, doesn’t mean they aren’t putting in as much effort as you are. My first impulse would be to run screaming away from anyone who didn’t respect the work that I do as equal to the work that they do regardless of paychecks. I would also like to think that I am not being assessed by my earning potential as my only valued traits. If someone thinks that you don’t have an equal say in your relationship because you don’t make equal money, FUCK THEM.

    This is a challenge I run into not because he is sensitive about our income distribution but because I am. He works in tech, I work for the budget-depleted state, so yeah, the difference in paychecks is not inconsiderable, even though our hours are the same. My brain automatically devotes energy to paying bills equally vs. paying bills as a percentage of our relative incomes vs. making up the difference in non-financial ways, while all he cares about is whether the living room smells like dog and we have clean dishes to eat off of. I’ve got myself a nice hangup.

  233. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 29, 2012 at 12:19 am |

    This is a challenge I run into not because he is sensitive about our income distribution but because I am.

    Yeah, this is a really interesting point, Caperton. I mean, as I mentioned above, I don’t have the same investment in the topic as most of the other women on the thread, but I notice similar tensions between my wife (who’s currently supporting me) and I. She doesn’t give a shit that I’m living off her while I study, but I worry about being a burden and am itching to qualify for campus employment (alas, time-of-residence restrictions :P).

  234. dungone
    dungone June 29, 2012 at 12:21 am |

    Incorrect use of “seen” (refer to: The Internet): check.

    Your other strawmen were silly, but expected. This one is interesting since it’s just so random and wrong. I’m bemused! You use the internet for grammar? Silly you! Let’s see… hmmm… seen, a past participle, to be used after have or had. Check (mate?).

  235. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune June 29, 2012 at 12:32 am |

    Let’s see… hmmm… seen, a past participle, to be used after have or had. Check (mate?).

    No, you nitwit, my point is you haven’t seen anything, as we’re on the internet. Except your computer screen. Or possibly the inside of your colon. -_-

    And no, dear, I don’t want to mate. Keep up the trying, though. It’s giving me grins.

  236. dungone
    dungone June 29, 2012 at 12:48 am |

    No, you nitwit, my point is you haven’t seen anything, as we’re on the internet.

    Who said it had anything to do with what you looked like? I read with my eyes.

  237. Mxe354
    Mxe354 June 29, 2012 at 12:53 am |

    Let me spell it out for you: accusing someone of not being able to read in lieu of arguing against their position is a personal attack.

    But that’s not what Lolagirl did. She said “Reading comprehension fail, you have it, Dungone” and then proceeded to respond to your argument. She did not say that you failed at reading comprehension in order to refute your argument. She made an observation about your lack of reading comprehension in that context. It was not like this:

    1. dungone makes claim X
    2. dungone has bad reading comprehension
    3. Therefore, claim X is false.

    To further elucidate my point, here’s an example of an argument that only ostensibly involves ad hominems:

    Opponent: Social equality is absurd – you can never make everyone exactly the same!
    Me: You’re an idiot for assuming that social equality implies equality of identity or endowment. Rather, egalitarians push for equality of opportunity.

    I insulted this person by calling them an “idiot” but my argument is not this:

    1. Opponent claims that equality implies making everyone the same
    2. Opponent is an idiot
    3. Therefore, opponent is wrong

    Lastly, let’s look at the Wikipedia definition: “An ad hominem (Latin for “to the man” or “to the person”), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it.” And I should note that literally every other kind of ad hominem listed there agrees with that basic definition, even though they differ in certain ways.

  238. Lauren M
    Lauren M June 29, 2012 at 12:54 am |

    @caperton

    This is a challenge I run into not because he is sensitive about our income distribution but because I am. He works in tech, I work for the budget-depleted state, so yeah, the difference in paychecks is not inconsiderable, even though our hours are the same. My brain automatically devotes energy to paying bills equally vs. paying bills as a percentage of our relative incomes vs. making up the difference in non-financial ways, while all he cares about is whether the living room smells like dog and we have clean dishes to eat off of. I’ve got myself a nice hangup.

    I’m obsessed over whether the living room smells like dog! I’m not exactly sure how the bills shake out…there’s been times when he’s had more disposable income and payed off credit cards to avoid interest even though we’d both charged on it. Now that I have a bit more, I told him not to stress about wedding money, I have it in the bank. I guess I see it all going to the same cause so it doesn’t matter. Yet, I still don’t like the idea of mixing finances. Just want my autonomy in that way, I guess.

  239. Mxe354
    Mxe354 June 29, 2012 at 1:23 am |

    I stand by what I wrote, even a lowly dudebro such as I knows a little bit about a little bit.

    Yes, clearly the best way to respond to people’s points is to say that you maintain your stance without elaboration.

    Anyways girls-keep the vag sand free, nobody likes a whiner.

    Oh my, the sand-vagina insult! That’s almost as charming (read: repulsively misogynistic) as the “Are you on the rag?” insult!

  240. dungone
    dungone June 29, 2012 at 1:27 am |

    @Lauren, I think you’re maybe mixing up two separate ideas. You want control over your money to maintain your autonomy, but you also want what you feel is your fair share of his. Your work may be just as important as his but that doesn’t mean you’re entitled to his money unless he’s also entitled to yours. What if you earned more than him? Would you then feel that he was entitled to the excess earnings, or would you still feel that it infringed on your autonomy?

    P.S. Traditionally your family is supposed to pay for the wedding anyway, so I don’t think it’s that much of a concession. In a male-provider arrangement, it’s a gesture of good faith by you and your family. So I guess the big question is if all of this isn’t more of a traditional arrangement than would seem on the surface.

  241. Lauren M
    Lauren M June 29, 2012 at 2:35 am |

    @dungone – It doesn’t surprise me that your your response is idiotic, and makes no sense, not to mention that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Not sure why I’m getting sucked into this one, but here it goes anyhow.

    Lauren, I think you’re maybe mixing up two separate ideas. You want control over your money to maintain your autonomy, but you also want what you feel is your fair share of his.

    I’m sorry, what “fair share” of his money am I getting at? Not exactly sure where you’re coming up with that. If we’re not mixing our finances, we’re not mixing our finances. You realize that means I keep control over my money and he keeps control over his.

    What if you earned more than him? Would you then feel that he was entitled to the excess earnings, or would you still feel that it infringed on your autonomy?

    What if I make more money than he does, wait, I DO. In fact, I said that earlier. Is this another reading comprehension fail? Is he entitled to the excess? If it’s for the betterment of our lives, you’re damn right he is. So, how is there any confusion. If you’d like to know exactly how fucking entitled he is to my money and my life I got him a car and he’s making the payments. It’s an adult relationship and there’s mutual respect. I’m making a comment on a common practice in newlywed couples which is the mixing of finances and saying that it’s not something I’d go in for. How am I getting any of his money in that arrangement? And as far as your assumption that my wedding is so traditional, yeah, I’m well aware that the bride’s family traditionally pays. Well, my wedding isn’t being all paid for by daddy dearest. In fact, a large chunk of our wedding is being paid for by US. I’m also not just moving out of my parents’ house and in with my new husband. In fact, we’ve been cohabitating for seven years now, so the great part is that we already know how to do all of that. So, I again fail to see how worried I am about what the traditional arrangement for getting married is, or how this effects my life. He was stressing out about not having the savings to pay for his half of our portion of the wedding budget. I told him not to worry because if push comes to shove, I have our whole portion in the bank. How is this related to our sharing of housework? IT’S NOT, because it’s just your way of trying to derail the tiny sliver of this conversation that was actually devoted to discussing the topic at hand instead of feeding you opportunities to act like a jackass and somehow enjoy the negative attention. So here you go. Enjoy your cookie, asshat.

  242. librarygoose
    librarygoose June 29, 2012 at 3:20 am |

    You want control over your money to maintain your autonomy, but you also want what you feel is your fair share of his.

    Whoa, I don’t want to speak for Lauren, but I read it more as her and her SO paying what needs paying depending on who has the money. You can maintain your own accounts and manage to not be a massive dick.

    P.S. Traditionally your family is supposed to pay for the wedding anyway, so I don’t think it’s that much of a concession.

    P.S. I am super sure Lauren is trying hard to toe the line of tradition. I mean, how many dudes want weddings or pay for them? Also, you’re fucking full of it.

  243. Caperton
    Caperton June 29, 2012 at 6:04 am | *

    Yes, dungone, your reading comprehension skills are absolutely stellar.

  244. Fat Steve
    Fat Steve June 29, 2012 at 6:13 am |

    Well bless your heart, darling, aren’t you in the most desperate need of a good fuck…

    Well, sure…where would you like to meet?

    Wait, this wasn’t meant for me… was it?

  245. Caperton
    Caperton June 29, 2012 at 6:43 am | *

    Lauren M., I’m all about maintaining separate accounts. We’ve divvied up the shared expenses (mortgage, bills, the credit card with “his stuff” and “our stuff” on it, the money for home repairs that came out of my savings), and beyond that we’re on our own. When The Boy buys six slingshots and a wireless weather station, I don’t have to worry that he spent “our” money on it, and when I buy a new bag for work and another six slingshots, I don’t have to worry about justifying it. It takes a lot of stress off and makes it easier to stay honest. I’ve heard couples explain their decision to merge finances, but I’ve never really been able to get my head around it.

  246. Fat Steve
    Fat Steve June 29, 2012 at 7:45 am |

    I’ve heard couples explain their decision to merge finances, but I’ve never really been able to get my head around it.

    I can see why you might not want to but it’s way easier. All monies get deposited in a central account out of which the bills are paid and we have different accounts which we use for savings, spending, etc.

    I realize that people view it as a measure of in dependence but in some circumstances it makes you more dependent. For example, when my wife was going through law school, I wasn’t going to make her live on her part time salary. I feel she should have access to everything of mine. We are both contributing in the best way we can, so just because the outside world values one of our ‘jobs’ as more worthy than the other, we don’t. (Naturally it’s a lot easier to have that attitude now that my wife earns more than me but I had it for the first 15 years of our marriage when she didn’t.) We’ll be married 18 years in August, and we’ve been had joint finance since our engagement. It worked out for us, but I would never even recommend it to anyone else as finances are such a personal issue.

  247. A.Y. Siu
    A.Y. Siu June 29, 2012 at 7:56 am |

    I think it’s just whatever works for your situation. When my wife and I first got married, we had separate bank accounts, and we’d divvy up expenses (you pay for the electric, phones, car insurance, and I’ll pay for the rent). After a while, it just got to be logistically too complicated to divvy everything up that way. It also felt a little Joy Luck Club.

    So we ended up just having a joint account and then keeping track of things.

    I don’t recommend that approach for everybody, but it worked for us. For some couples, a joint account makes sense. For other couples, separate accounts make sense. You could also, frankly, have three accounts—one joint both contribute to that pays the bills, and then two separate ones for splurges and personal expenses.

  248. Treebeard
    Treebeard June 29, 2012 at 8:57 am |

    I think my boyfriend and I have a pretty equal approach to housework and chores. But where I think we are unequal is in the mental effort that goes into keeping track of things that need to be done for life outside of work, and making sure they get done. We each take care of our own jobs, but for things outside of work, I feel like I am the one who has to remember that we have to pay bills or get the car serviced or reply to an invitation or call friends to say we’ll be in town or anything like that. He says I plan too far ahead and remind too much, but from my point of view, when I don’t make an effort to plan ahead and remind him we need to do stuff, it doesn’t get done. It bothers me, but I don’t really know what to do about it, because we just have fundamentally different approaches to deadlines and keeping in touch with people. I have sat and wondered whether those differences are because of our genders or just our innate personalities, and whether I should be trying to do anything about it or just deal with it, and I really don’t know.

  249. Treebeard
    Treebeard June 29, 2012 at 8:59 am |

    I think that keeping separate finances works well when you are childless and both have jobs that pay reasonably equally, but I have a feeling it stops working well once you have kids. Are you going to sit around divvying up who should pay for the kids clothes from their own account?

  250. With Love
    With Love June 29, 2012 at 9:39 am |

    Thanks for the clean-up, Jill.

  251. Fat Steve
    Fat Steve June 29, 2012 at 10:07 am |

    Feel free to remove my comment @256 where I blockquoted his most crass offering.

  252. Lars
    Lars June 29, 2012 at 10:14 am |

    A man who is sure of himself shouldn’t have a problem with his wife asking his to do anything. ….The problem might lay more in the wife not being able to motivate the husband.

    You know, your wife is your wife, not your project leader for Project Family. It’s not her job to plan what has to be done, to manage things, to motivate and lead people, etc. It’s not her job to have a big plan of when to buy birthday presents, what to get at the grocery store, when to cook dinner or scrub the floor, etc. etc. – and then put you to work according to her plan. Because that’s not sharing, that’s not being two responsible partners.

    It’s a fairly common dynamic that women are family project leaders and men “help”. I believe it’s a destructive dynamic.

  253. zuzu
    zuzu June 29, 2012 at 10:50 am |

    I think that keeping separate finances works well when you are childless and both have jobs that pay reasonably equally, but I have a feeling it stops working well once you have kids. Are you going to sit around divvying up who should pay for the kids clothes from their own account?

    That’s why there are joint accounts.

    I’m a big, big proponent of keeping separate accounts for your own spending. It’s very important to keep your own financial activities in your own name, especially if you wind up leaving the paid workforce.

  254. roro80
    roro80 June 29, 2012 at 11:56 am |

    Hubby and I have been living together for 8 years, married for 3, own a home, and yet we’ve studiously avoided joining our accounts. We have all of each other’s passwords in case we need them (like for bank accounts, loan statements, etc), but no shared accounts, no shared credit cards or checks…it’s kind of silly at this point, I think. We’ve talked about it for years, but we’ve never had a strong motivator for it yet. We both make very decent money, and we both make about the same amount. I save like crazy and he pays most of the bills, we split the mortgage and dog walker, alternate other major expenses, and mostly just buy what we need individually. It works out well — in 8 years, we’ve never argued about money, never sniffed at the other’s most recent semi-indulgent purchase, never opened a credit card bill to an unwanted surprise, etc. However, if one of us were to lose our job, or if we decided one of us should stay home and take care of the kid(s) at such time as that is applicable, I don’t know how we’d make our current system work. It also wouldn’t work if one or both of us weren’t so careful with our money.

  255. JetGirl
    JetGirl June 29, 2012 at 4:05 pm |

    Thank you, Jill. Those guys were giving me a headache.
    On the financial side, my husband and I have our own accounts and a joint account. For years, we split home expenses evenly, but after I had some major health problems requiring major surgery and went freelance, it’s 70-30 on that for me, since we each cover our own medical stuff.
    I wasn’t happy about that 70-30 thing at all, and hope to get something fulltime in the next year, so we can go back to 50-50.

  256. maggiemay
    maggiemay June 29, 2012 at 6:05 pm |

    @ julia, 115—–

    at last, somebody besides me who ate paste!!

  257. Politicalguineapig
    Politicalguineapig June 29, 2012 at 7:40 pm |

    Yet another article to be put in the ‘thank god I’m never getting married’ file.

    Tinfoil Hattie: Yeah, I do better with lists too. I think making a list for yourself is a bit different then making a list for hubby or boyfriend though. I’d kind resent it if a significant other made a list for me, rather then us hashing it out together. For the record, I’m very very messy- trying to improve- and do not like people in my space. I’ve been known to delay dinner or lunch for hours if there’s someone else in the kitchen.

    On the subject of joint accounts, maybe it’s just me, but I feel that it’s a little too trusting. Shit happens, even if the man in question is totally faithful and doesn’t want to ‘upgrade.’

  258. Lars
    Lars June 30, 2012 at 5:51 am |

    Politicalguineapig:

    Yeah, I do better with lists too. I think making a list for yourself is a bit different then making a list for hubby or boyfriend though. I’d kind resent it if a significant other made a list for me, rather then us hashing it out together.

    Yeah. I’m a big list maker. What with all the stuff on my job & social calendar, relying on short-term memory is no good. Start of the weekend, I’m making a list with items like “mow lawn”, “fold laundry”, “change bed linen”, “dough for long-rise sourdough bread”, “de-clutter 4yo’s room”, “meal list for coming week”, “pack for 10yo’s weekend trip”. It’s not that I don’t spot things. I do. I put them on the list, and I get them done. But w/o the list, all of a sudden it’s late Sunday and I’m looking at all those things I knew I should have done but didn’t.

    I’m all for my partner making similar lists, comparing notes, and swapping tasks around. But I’m not making a list of her and she’s not making a list of me. We’re making lists to make sure things get done.

  259. Rose
    Rose June 30, 2012 at 5:58 am |

    He says I …, but from my point of view, when I don’t …, it doesn’t get done. It bothers me, but I don’t really know what to do about it, because we just have fundamentally different approaches …. I have sat and wondered whether those differences are because of our genders or just our innate personalities, and whether I should be trying to do anything about it or just deal with it, and I really don’t know.

    @Treebeard 261

    Definitely the most interesting comment to date. How much of these issues is biological and how much is societal? Also, what proportion is due to one’s individual nature and what is due to belonging to a subgroup? I only wish I had more insight to offer, but those, to me, are exactly the right questions.

    I think those questions apply to most of us and our relationships one way or another, including the ways that relate to the OP. “If I don’t clean this/remind/nag SO to clean this, it doesn’t get done,” “XXX doesn’t come naturally to SO so either I take up the slack even though it doesn’t seem fair or else it doesn’t get done (in a way that doesn’t cause me discomfort of some sort/in a timeframe I like/at all,” and so forth.

    On a personal note, and many of the commenters here seem like they would agree, I’d say you have to experiment a bit with how comfortable you are with the current situation, made a decision, and stick to it–i.e., move on or make a commitment and continue making that decision (i.e., continue staying committed). It is a very personal decision but I hope continue in your relationship knowing that things might not ever change (so are you okay with that or not?). Anything is possible, but actions speak louder than words and change doesn’t happen spontaneously so if you haven’t already seen evidence of evolution or compromise . . . and that applies to both parties so have you been trying and/or do you want to make that kind of a compromise . . . ?

    But back to the idea of gendered roles: I read a study ages ago (no citation; apologies) that men and women differ, on average, in the sensitivities of their skin to bacterial irritation. This was then linked to the frequency with which women (living alone) changed their bath towels and bedsheets, washed their faces/hair/clothes, etc., compared to the same in men (also living alone). Note: not an experiment, correlational study only. However, I feel this raises some interesting questions. Obviously within a gender people vary, but, if women are on average more physically sensitive to “dirty households” what then? Does this explain why women often “cave first” about cleaning a mess or performing domestic chores? Does it explain enough of this phenomenon or is a disproportionate amount of the caving due to social constructs?

    I believe that individuals differ and should not be judged solely by whatever subgroup they belong to, but I also believe that biological differences (in average and in trends) exist. How can we account for patterns without creating systemic disadvantages for those who do not follow the patterns of the norm (where norm only means largest pattern-discernible group or average trend, irrespective of majority status and variance)? Laws of physics say that (less friction, dissipation, realistic nuances, etc.) every action has an equal (in magnitude) and opposite reaction–I would be surprised if this doesn’t apply to societal constructs as well, unfortunately.

  260. DolHeart
    DolHeart June 30, 2012 at 6:54 am |

    Hey Dungone and Warren.
    I work as a stripper and nude/sports model and make more money out of desperate losers like you guys than both of you put together – and I only work an average of 32 hrs a week.
    The rest of the time, I sit around drinking cocktails, going to parties and playing videogames, while my part-time employed boyfriend does all the housework and cooking. (and has a bigger dick than both your tiny peenies put together)

    U mad, bros?

  261. Worthwhile Reads: Having It All Is Not a “Woman’s Issue”

    [...] Having It All Is Not a “Woman’s Issue”June 29, 2012 By Libby Anne 8 CommentsHaving It All: Not a “Woman’s Issue”As an aside, I have a secret fantasy of gathering a team of men to go to every male-dominated [...]

  262. Lara
    Lara June 30, 2012 at 2:16 pm |

    Your worldview doesn’t seem to leave any room for reproduction. What do you think a world would look like that that men, woman and children are all cared for, happy and reaching their full potential. It certainly isn’t the world we live in now. But your posts seem to suggest (i’ve only read a few) a world in which men and women compete equally in the corporate world and children don’t exist. That wouldn’t work for very long…I suppose eventually that would get us to where Germany is and the gov. would pay us to be stay-at-home parents. Maybe that is a good idea. =) Germany aside, I just wonder what your thoughts are for optimum child care. I ask because I have yet to figure it out.
    I am not judging. I am certainly NOT a proponent of traditional gender roles.

  263. perversecowgirl
    perversecowgirl June 30, 2012 at 4:54 pm |

    I read a study…that men and women differ, on average, in the sensitivities of their skin to bacterial irritation. This was then linked to the frequency with which women (living alone) changed their bath towels and bedsheets, washed their faces/hair/clothes, etc., compared to the same in men (also living alone)….I feel this raises some interesting questions…if women are on average more physically sensitive to “dirty households” what then? Does this explain why women often “cave first” about cleaning a mess or performing domestic chores?

    Just to play devil’s advocate, I’m gonna flip this on its head: maybe women are more prone to bacterial irritation because they change their linens so often (due to social conditioning to be neat and clean) and therefore haven’t been exposed to bacteria often enough to develop a tolerance. :D

    Re: the original post: while I absolutely agree that men need to do their fair share around the house, and usually don’t (although my bf does okay, I think), I tend to see a huuuuge martyr streak in women that I think is a big part of the problem.

    Not on this board, mind you; I mean, for instance, women I used to work with who’d go on and on about “so of course my husband went to bed at 10pm last night, that bastard, and I had to stay up picking up the kids’ toys and doing the dishes.” And I just wanted to go “Why? Why did you have to pick up the toys – do they become evil and sentient at night, so you have to lock them in a special box? Why did you have to do the dishes – can you not just leave them and just wash ‘em on an as-needed basis, like I do?” If these women just backed off from the uberfastidiousness a little, their partners might have picked up the slack…and even if they didn’t, who cares? The house would be a little messy but they’d do more fun things/go to bed at a decent time/etc. Seems like a fair trade to me.

    And then there was my mom, who vacuumed the entire house twice a day and felt that she deserved to have her ass kissed for it. Um, mom, please stop deluding yourself. You’re not doing all that vacuuming for our benefit, you’re doing it to satisfy your OCD. I don’t owe you anything.

    I think as long as your living space doesn’t have pests or weird smells or safety hazards and you can generally find things when you need them, that’s good enough – that’s the “taking care of yourself like a grownup” thing to which adults should all be expected to measure up. Anything beyond that is negotiable, and yeah, sometimes one person is going to have higher standards than the other, and the one with the higher standards needs to own their compulsion instead of projecting it onto everyone else.

    Easy for me to say, I suppose, since I’m generally the one with the lower standards. But still.

    As for whether someone should be thanked for doing stuff they’re “supposed” to do anyway…my boyfriend and I are big on thank yous (or at least “yay! It looks nice in here now”s) in our house. Yeah, maybe doing dishes or laundry is a standard part of life, but since we don’t have kids to care for (or even jobs to go to, at the moment) we can and do postpone that shit all the time. Plus any housework I do is housework he didn’t have to do and vice-versa, so yeah. We acknowledge each other’s contributions.

  264. anne
    anne June 30, 2012 at 6:02 pm |

    It’s interesting we’re ready to be critical of “choice choosing” and acknowledge the fact that practically no choices are made in a sociocultural vacuum and that women’s choices are limited and steered a certain way and often the choice-chooser rationalizes her choice as being fully her own so she doesn’t feel like a chump – until somebody applies these criticisms to sex work.

  265. LoopyJ
    LoopyJ June 30, 2012 at 6:34 pm |

    I never know how to squash that language though. I don’t call them out on it usually but I would never phrase it that way myself. Maybe next time I’ll just say, “Why do you call it babysitting?” and see what they say.

    When you hear a man say that he’s babysitting, or if someone else says to him, “Awww, are you babysitting today?” I would simply ask him whose children they are, or ask the other person why they assume that those aren’t his children.

    If a guy says, “I’m babysitting my kids today,” or a woman says, “My husband is babysitting the kids today,” ask how much he charges and whether he is available to work on school nights too. Seriously, you don’t have to sound annoyed when women talk like this, but you should point out to them that he’s their child’s parent, not a teenage boy picking up some extra cash by watching the neighbours’ kids.

  266. Politicalguineapig
    Politicalguineapig July 1, 2012 at 1:11 am |

    Perversecowgirl: I like your theory. Particularly cause I’m one of those people who only makes the bed under duress or when I’m sleeping on the bare mattress.

    Lars: I think we’re related. About all I notice is food related stuff or extrodinary mess. I.E. ‘We’re out of lemons.. we cannot survive the summer without lemons.’ Mess: “oops, better clean that out, it’s gotten moldy.”

    That said, anyone got a good way to get gum off the floor? My sister visited a while ago and she’s one of those ‘stick it anywhere’ people.

  267. Angie unduplicated
    Angie unduplicated July 1, 2012 at 9:36 am |

    @PerverseCowgirl: The reason toys (and anything else on the floor) are picked up before bedtime is so you won’t trip on them on the way to the bathroom and possibly incur an expensive ER bill. Your mom may have been counseled to vacuum daily because of a child’s, or her own, dust mite allergies, as prescribed by my pulmonologist.
    @all you dudebros: The reason women don’t want unemployed men is that most employers have little intolerance for substance abuse or anger management issues, and we allow employers to screen for us. If you want to have “the pick of the litter” by earning a huge income, don’t be surprised when she leaves you for a man with a bigger paycheck.
    I don’t hear any of you complaining about men’s routine exclusion of women with, for instance, flat chests or “bad” hair, matters far more trivial than employers’ exclusionary guidelines.

  268. Kaija24
    Kaija24 July 1, 2012 at 5:55 pm |

    I listened to a very nuanced NPR interview with Anne-Maria Slaughter, the author of the Atlantic article “Why Women Still Can’t Have It All”:
    http://www.wbur.org/npr/155498926/the-impossible-juggling-act-motherhood-and-work

    Her main point (reiterated over and over) was that a) “work” in the traditional sense (hours at work = productivity, ass in the office = “working”, no distractions/no life = better worker, career = monotonically increasing ascent over time, etc) doesn’t really work for anyone these days, c) efficiency (most work accomplished in the least amount of time) is more important than sheer hours spent working, c) structural changes are crucially needed so that EVERYONE can have work/life balance, d) it’s not women vs. men or parents vs. nonparents in the workplace, it’s that all workers must keep asking for/demanding more humane working conditions and allowances for life outside of work. I say a big amen to that!

    My own proposal would be to institute a policy of “personal leave” for all full-time employees to replace maternity/paternity and other kinds of leave. Employees can accrue personal leave time (e.g., 1 week per 4 months worked) or can be allowed a certain amount of leave time per discrete time period (e.g., every 3, 5 or 10 years) that they can use for the birth/adoption of a child, caring for a friend or family member, writing the first draft of a novel, taking a training course, volunteer work, travel, etc. This eliminates the “us” vs “them” and allows each person to use the time for something important to their individual work/life balance. This should not impact or eliminate the traditional “vacation” time, which doesn’t allow for major endeavors and should be reserved for short term timeout, recharge, attending events, recreation, etc. I think it’d be a decent tradeoff in efficiency and worker satisfaction in the long run.

  269. Kaija24
    Kaija24 July 1, 2012 at 6:07 pm |

    In the interests of full disclosure, I am not married or a parent (and I’m not having children by choice), but I live with a male partner in a dual-career situation and have observed that is damn hard to balance work and life no matter what your living/family/partnership situation is. I’m currently working in a very unstructured telecommuting job and just being able to work when I want to work/at my high energy times and have the autonomy to decide how much I’ll work today vs tomorrow vs tonight makes a huge difference in keeping up with quality time with my partner, doing my share of the household chores, and being able to pursue my hobbies and personal activities. Those who have to be physically in an office from X time to Y time plus commuting have far less ability to arrange their lives efficiently.

  270. Dudes, Get It Together
    Dudes, Get It Together July 1, 2012 at 10:54 pm |

    [...] at Feministe on these statistics and Valenti’s article, Jill Filipovic admits that “she has a secret fantasy of gathering a team of men to go to every male-dominated [...]

  271. Politicalguineapig
    Politicalguineapig July 2, 2012 at 1:13 am |

    Lara: But your posts seem to suggest (i’ve only read a few) a world in which men and women compete equally in the corporate world and children don’t exist.

    Well, first of all, most of the posters here are childless. Secondly, once kids come into the picture, most mothers can’t compete equally in the corporate world.

    Kajia24: I like your proposal. I’ve always disliked the paternal leave idea because it makes a very unsupported assumption-that men actually wish to spend time with their children and partners.

  272. Mike
    Mike July 2, 2012 at 7:21 am |

    Yeah, men need to have a decent job to even make it to the third date. For women this is not the case. A woman who does not have a decent job can still become a stay at home wife.

    A man without a decent job is nothing and can become exactly nothing, if he is lucky he will get to impregnate a girl and then has to pay child support, but to have a family a job is required, even if she makes a gazillion bucks. So excuse us if we think me having a job is more important than you having a job. Hubby is not going to kick you out if you are unemployed. Wife “will get fed up with being the primary breadwinner” and will kick you out.

    1. maggiemay
      maggiemay July 2, 2012 at 7:08 pm |

      @ mike—–

      the problem is not that women dont like the breadwinner role—its that unemployed men usually refuse to be homemakers—-

    2. Dan
      Dan July 2, 2012 at 8:13 pm |

      Either you’re dating the wrong women or you’ve got a problem with the way you approach staying at home.

      There have been times in my family when my Mother was the primary breadwinner, both before and after children. I’ve even known a successful professor at a prestigious college who was the breadwinner while her husband was the stay at home Dad. I also know a VERY successful professor who doesn’t stay home but is the one who has to go home if there’s an emergency/event and, though very successful, is not the primary breadwinner.

      If your job is what a date hinges on, maybe you have too much of your identity wrapped up in your job.

  273. EG
    EG July 2, 2012 at 3:42 pm |

    most of the posters here are childless.

    Evidence?

  274. Jadey
    Jadey July 2, 2012 at 4:00 pm |
    Well, first of all, most of the posters here are childless.

    Evidence?

    What don’t you remember the exhaustive census that we all filled out a little while ago as a well-defined and relatively static commentariat population?

    OH WAIT

  275. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune July 2, 2012 at 5:00 pm |

    Well, first of all, most of the posters here are childless.

    o_O I’d argue that the vast number of people disclosing parenting responsibilities in this thread would have left the opposite impression, if anything…oi.

  276. Lauren M
    Lauren M July 2, 2012 at 11:16 pm |

    @Mike

    Yeah, men need to have a decent job to even make it to the third date. For women this is not the case. A woman who does not have a decent job can still become a stay at home wife.

    A man without a decent job is nothing and can become exactly nothing, if he is lucky he will get to impregnate a girl and then has to pay child support, but to have a family a job is required, even if she makes a gazillion bucks. So excuse us if we think me having a job is more important than you having a job. Hubby is not going to kick you out if you are unemployed. Wife “will get fed up with being the primary breadwinner” and will kick you out.

    My future husband became unemployed for a while after we first started dating. He moved in with me. He got a job eventually. He proceeded to support me while I went to school so I could have my dream job. Just one gal’s experience, but it seems like what you’re saying might not be the gospel truth.

  277. pheenobarbidoll
    pheenobarbidoll July 2, 2012 at 11:21 pm |

    Yeah, men need to have a decent job to even make it to the third date. For women this is not the case.

    Because she has a “built in job”. Being a house keeper and a sexy hawt brood mare.

    Wanna trade?

    You get to look for security and stability (or what you’ve been told =’s security and stability), while your dates decide if you’re good enough to be the meat they screw while you clean their house.

  278. DonnaL
    DonnaL July 3, 2012 at 12:28 am |

    It never ceases to amaze me how many men there are who are genuinely convinced that women have it easy in life, and are intensely jealous of them. (I used to hear them sometimes in what they thought was all-male company, so I know they exist in real life.)

    People see what they want to see, I suppose.

    PS: In case anyone’s wondering, it was not the search for an easier life, romantically or otherwise, that led me to transition. I’m sure that’s a surprise to all of you.

  279. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune July 3, 2012 at 1:21 am |

    PS: In case anyone’s wondering, it was not the search for an easier life, romantically or otherwise, that led me to transition.

    *suspicious side-eye. of suspicion. that suspects*

  280. DonnaL
    DonnaL July 3, 2012 at 1:28 am |

    (In all seriousness, I should add that I do find life infinitely easier in some very important ways — but not in the ways that are the subject of this thread!)

  281. Kaija24
    Kaija24 July 3, 2012 at 6:59 am |

    Yeah, men need to have a decent job to even make it to the third date. For women this is not the case. A woman who does not have a decent job can still become a stay at home wife.

    I dunno…in listening to my male colleagues, friends, acquaintances, family members, etc. it sounds like most guys are really not that thrilled with the idea of a non-working partner. Most people of my generation tend to assume that both partners could and should be working to support the household. They are actively looking to screen OUT those women who don’t want to work/contribute in some way other than being a decorative arm object.

    It doesn’t have to be a 50/50 split, and like many posters have described, the earning balance tends to seesaw back and forth between partners as jobs come and go and shift and change and people change fields, change careers, etc. Having two incomes gives the team more leeway to navigate those seemingly inevitable ups and downs of modern working life (for us non-wealthy people anyways, for whom fulltime work is a necessity and not a choice).

  282. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 7:02 am |

    My future husband became unemployed for a while after we first started dating. He moved in with me. He got a job eventually. He proceeded to support me while I went to school so I could have my dream job. Just one gal’s experience, but it seems like what you’re saying might not be the gospel truth.

    How so? He was the one with the job in the end who supported you through school. And he will be the one working when children are around.

    What I said IS the gospels truth. But to all the guys who think they can get by being stay at home husbands to a feminist, good luck with that :p .

    What I said still stands. Me having a job or not is a MAJOR factor in wether I will get picked as a mate or not, so I am not going to compromise my performance by pitching in at home too much, thats for the woman to do. If she is unemployed for a number of years I dont get fed up and kick her out at some point. If I am unemployed, a woman will tolerate that only for so long.

    So my job > your job.

  283. Jadey
    Jadey July 3, 2012 at 8:41 am |

    Me having a job or not is a MAJOR factor in wether I will get picked as a mate or not, so I am not going to compromise my performance by pitching in at home too much, thats for the woman to do.

    And, increasingly, you being a douchebag who expects your wife to handle all of the household work whether or not she has her own job (and I guess if she does, too frickin bad, amirite? because that’s “for the woman to do” – compromising their performance for men’s sakes, the unending task of women) will be a MAJOR factor in whether you get picked as a mate or not.

    Because more and more women are rejecting the (unfair) expectation that chores = their work alone. I know I would not put up with a male partner who expected to be exempted from housework. Shit is not on.

  284. EG
    EG July 3, 2012 at 9:17 am |

    Me having a job or not is a MAJOR factor in wether I will get picked as a mate or not, so I am not going to compromise my performance by pitching in at home too much, thats for the woman to do.

    And yet, every study of housework shows that the more a husband pitches in on the domestic labor, the happier the marriage is, and the more sex the couple has.

    So, you know, good luck with that philosophy, but when your future wife leaves your messy, unhelpful ass after your selfishness turns her off, don’t come crying to me.

    1. Dan
      Dan July 3, 2012 at 9:19 am |

      @EG – Don’t be silly, EG! RealMen(tm) don’t cry! He’ll just manfully rev his chainsaw in manful blue-balled sorrow.

  285. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 11:03 am |

    And yet, every study of housework shows that the more a husband pitches in on the domestic labor, the happier the marriage is, and the more sex the couple has.

    So, you know, good luck with that philosophy, but when your future wife leaves your messy, unhelpful ass after your selfishness turns her off, don’t come crying to me.

    Dont believe any study you did not falsify yourself. Also I never said I am going to do nothing, I just said, that I am not going to do half.

    Also if she is really one of those that leaves over housework, I still have my career my income and can start over. If she kicks me out because “you are not pulling your weight financially” or because of “your lack of ambition” I go to jail if I dont find a job quick to pay my child support and I cant start over with wife No.2 or just a girlfriend either, which I can do, if I focus on my career and put chores waaaaay down on the priority list.

    What men do and do not in the end is determined by women and women want a man with ambition. I am not living a feminists live in the hopes to find that very very rare women who would appreciate it.

  286. Mxe354
    Mxe354 July 3, 2012 at 11:15 am |

    What men do and do not in the end is determined by women

    You might want to stop living under that rock.

    and women want a man with ambition.

    lol @ gender essentialism

    What a surprise.

  287. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 11:30 am |

    Look all I am saying, if you want your feminist world, make sure THE WOMEN are feminists first, before you worry about the men, because as it is now, good looking women do carthwheels for an A-Rod, rather than somebody who can display his prowess in housework skills. Only because you are a feminist and surround yourself with feminists, does not mean feminist women are anywhere close to being the majority of women in your country, yet alone the world.

    Being good with chores gets me nowhere. A good career and a good job on the other hand gets me somewhere. If more women will stop seeing a husband who is JUST a stay at home husband as dead weight to dispose of, then maybe we will start to see more men willing to live 50 50. But as it is now I will not do anything that compromises the one thing that ensures I have a life worth living, whether the wife sticks around or not.

  288. Mxe354
    Mxe354 July 3, 2012 at 11:39 am |

    Look all I am saying, if you want your feminist world, make sure THE WOMEN are feminists first, before you worry about the men

    There’s no reason to say that we shouldn’t worry about both sexes embracing feminism simultaneously.

  289. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 11:43 am |

    There’s no reason to say that we shouldn’t worry about both sexes embracing feminism simultaneously.

    Well you can whish for whatever you want, but I dont see a motivation to be a feminists, if I not only am not rewarded for it, but put myself at great risk and end up being punished.

    Look up the divorce cases. The state has a clear idea of whom gets the children and who is supposed to pay child support, even if the father was a stay at home husband the mother gets primary custody and he has to pay child support and got help him if he does not get his career right on track after the divorce to pay that child support, which by the way is oftentimes determined by what he COULD make, not what he actually does.

  290. Mxe354
    Mxe354 July 3, 2012 at 11:45 am |

    In fact, Mike, I think you’re being pretty misandric. Your stance implies that women can become feminists on their own, whereas men can only do so by being motivated to run after women who have such views. As if men can’t become feminists because they actually care about equality.

  291. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune July 3, 2012 at 11:47 am |

    If more women will stop seeing a husband who is JUST a stay at home husband as dead weight to dispose of, then maybe we will start to see more men willing to live 50 50.

    Well, if unemployed men did housework…. they wouldn’t be dead weight, they’d be househusbands. As someone who knows men who are primary caretakers, and whose father pulled a good half of housework AND parenting and who has one of the most stable marriages I’ve seen, fuck you’re stupid if you can’t stop conflating the two.

  292. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 11:53 am |

    In fact, Mike, I think you’re being pretty misandric. Your stance implies that women can become feminists on their own, whereas men can only do so by being motivated to run after women who have such views. As if men can’t become feminists because they actually care about equality.

    How is that misandric? All I am saying is there is almost zero reward for a man to be a feminist, but plenty of reward for being that traditional male. Like I mentioned before, not even in a divorce situation where children are involved he gets to get custody when he has been the stay at home husband, he does not even get that.

    Sure a man can become a feminist because he feels its the right think to do, but guess what, most people do not do the right thing, most people do whats good for them, what gets them the results they want and as it is now by being a feminist all a man does risks to dig himself a big fat hole he cant climb out of and if everything against all odds works out, well, he pleased a feminist.

    In todays society a man who does not meet the traditional expectations is still nothing even many feminists feel a man “needs to pull his own weight financially”.

    Sorry but as long as women are the ones who can get by without their own career and men are the ones who get brutalized, abused and pushed in a deep dark hole if he “at least does not pull his own weight financially” then almost every man will put the chores at the bottom of his priority list.

  293. Mxe354
    Mxe354 July 3, 2012 at 11:57 am |

    Sure a man can become a feminist because he feels its the right think to do, but guess what, most people do not do the right thing, most people do whats good for them, what gets them the results they want and as it is now by being a feminist all a man does risks to dig himself a big fat hole he cant climb out of and if everything against all odds works out, well, he pleased a feminist.

    Just because everyone can be selfish, doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be a feminist for altruistic reasons. Your argument is fallacious and irrelevant.

  294. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 12:04 pm |

    Dont you see a problem in the first place with the fact that a man has to become a feminist for altruistic reasons? A woman sure isnt motivated by altruistic reasons to become a feminist. To her its more a means to get fulfillment and what she wants.

    You basically admit men have to be the bigger person and sacrifice themselves on the altar of feminism for women, well good luck with that, you will still be whining about the paygap by 2040 if men have to be altruists to become feminists. I do whats good for me, just like you, I do what works for me, just like you.

    1. Dan
      Dan July 3, 2012 at 12:12 pm |

      So, Mike, you’re saying you LIKE the situation like it is? You complain that men are always responsible for child support and don’t get custody and always have to be the one with the job… but you don’t want that to change?

      Not wanting those things to be assumed is PART of being feminist. If you can’t see the benefits of feminism to you as a man, then you’re either blind or not paying attention.

  295. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 12:09 pm |

    Bottom line if you want more men on the bandwagon, make feminism work for them too. For example do something about the “Children belong with the mother” notion in divorce court. Maybe more men will be willing to compromise their own career by picking up the slack at home, if divorce for such a man does not mean financial Armageddon with a side order of jail time.

  296. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune July 3, 2012 at 12:09 pm |

    men are the ones who get brutalized, abused and pushed in a deep dark hole if he “at least does not pull his own weight financially”

    Jesus. Even taking your warped standards as the norm: Someone dumping you is not brutalisation, abuse or being pushed in a deep dark hole. Single life =/= becoming Samara from The Ring.

  297. Mxe354
    Mxe354 July 3, 2012 at 12:11 pm |

    Dont you see a problem in the first place with the fact that a man has to become a feminist for altruistic reasons? A woman sure isnt motivated by altruistic reasons to become a feminist. To her its more a means to get fulfillment and what she wants.

    You basically admit men have to be the bigger person and sacrifice themselves on the altar of feminism for women, well good luck with that, you will still be whining about the paygap by 2040 if men have to be altruists to become feminists. I do whats good for me, just like you, I do what works for me, just like you.

    Of course it’s in their interest, but you can’t assume that all women only care about feminism for that reason. Surely most of them care about feminism without the sole motivation of getting what they want for themselves. There are egoistic incentives, of course, but gender equality is a moral, altruistic goal. At least that’s how I see it.

    Also, I’m not talking about self-sacrifice, but rather motivation. I’m saying that the main reason people should be feminists is because they care about others, not only because they see some reward in doing so.

  298. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 12:35 pm |

    Jesus. Even taking your warped standards as the norm: Someone dumping you is not brutalisation, abuse or being pushed in a deep dark hole. Single life =/= becoming Samara from The Ring.

    It is if you compromised your career so she can have hers, she dumps you “because you are not pulling your weight financially”, then she gets custody and you child support obligations because you are the man, based on what you COULD earn due to your degree and then what you owe in child support just keeps piling up as you struggle to find a job.

    Not to mention that most women are not interested into hearing how good of a house maker your jobless behind is, so you are out on the street or with minimum wage, looking for a job that fits your degree in a tough job market, with child support arrears piling up and jailtime looming on the horizon.

    If the situation was reveresed, at least she would get child support payments, instead of owing them and her being a mother and out of a job does not make her a pariah in the dating world either.

  299. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune July 3, 2012 at 12:37 pm |

    then she gets custody and you child support obligations because you are the man, based on what you COULD earn due to your degree

    Demonstrably untrue. Child support payments are based on income. My wife’s ex’s required minimum payments rose, and then dipped, when he changed jobs.

  300. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 12:44 pm |

    Okay in that particular detail it all depends on the laws of the country or state. But still there is a reason men do not jump on the feminism bandwagon in droves. If it takes altruism for a man to do so, then it is not working so well for men, now is it? It does not take altruism to become part of something that benefits you.

  301. anne
    anne July 3, 2012 at 1:23 pm |

    Sure a man can become a feminist because he feels its the right think to do, but guess what, most people do not do the right thing, most people do whats good for them, what gets them the results they want…

    Sure people can be in favor of ethnic and LGBT equality and fairness because they feel it’s the right thing to do, but if there’s nothing in it for them why should they bother?

    Didn’t I sound like an absolute prick just then?

    http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/06/27/having-it-all-not-a-womens-issue/#comment-468788

    Mxe354 6.28.2012 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    Also, women can be very territorial around the house… they can give up some of the housework, but only if it’s done their way.

    Is that merely because of being controlling or because, when their partners try to help, they make more mistakes due to their unfamiliarity with housework?

    It’s because when you ask men to do something they don’t consider sufficiently fun or manly they intentionally take forever at it and fuck it up so you won’t ask them to do it again. When a guy “accidentally” throws silk blouses and sweaters in with jeans bath towels and washes it all on hot, then pleading ignorance about “your way” of doing things, that’s him intentionally being a passive-aggressive infantile little shit.

  302. ASH
    ASH July 3, 2012 at 1:31 pm |

    @Mike –

    Your arguments contradict each other.

    On one hand, you point out that men must be breadwinners because women will not put up with a man who isn’t a breadwinner. You say that being a “traditional man” is the only way that you can have a woman.

    Then, you say that women want to be feminists because it is in their best interest. That contradicts your earlier assertion that women only want a man who is a “traditional breadwinner”.

    If all women only want traditional breadwinners, how is feminism in our best interest?

    If you want to have a great career, good for you. However, if you really expect that your wife will take care of more than her share of the housework, even if she works outside the home, expect resentment from her. Feminism is in the best interest of women from a moral, fair standpoint. It isn’t always in the best interest of women from a monetary, societal standpoint.

    Giving up on money and acceptance as a given is NOT easier than trying to change unfair status quo.

  303. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 1:40 pm |

    That a woman is a self identified feminist does not men she gave up “traditional expectations” towards a man. Many women who built a career for themselves and identify as a feminist have NO INTEREST to subsidize a stay at home husband.

    Thats the kicker, there is ZERO in it for men, only a kick in the teeth. Many women drop out of the workforce, because “having it all” is too much, even with a 50 50 split. For the reasons I mentioned so far, better her than me.

  304. ASH
    ASH July 3, 2012 at 2:02 pm |

    “That a woman is a self identified feminist does not men she gave up “traditional expectations” towards a man. Many women who built a career for themselves and identify as a feminist have NO INTEREST to subsidize a stay at home husband. ”

    This is an all or nothing thing for you, isn’t it? We are interested in subsidizing a househusband. We are NOT however, interested in subsidizing a man-child. That’s where you get it wrong. I AM the breadwinner. My husband makes about 2/3 of what I make, probably works more hours a week than I do some weeks, and still does at least 50% of the housework when his schedule permits him to work a regular work schedule. I don’t have “traditional expectations” towards men because it usually mens that I get the short end of the stick. I have no interest in having a breadwinner for a mate who expects that I do the lion’s share of the housework even if I have an occupation outside of the home. My sons get to learn that being a husband isn’t about “looking for the angle” of “I’ve got mine, screw you.” If that is your idea of a partnership, AGAIN, expect resentment.

    “Thats the kicker, there is ZERO in it for men, only a kick in the teeth.”

    There’s zero in respecting your mate and being an equal partner instead of an entitled ass?

    Many women drop out of the workforce, because “having it all” is too much, even with a 50 50 split.”

    BS. Most women WHO drop out of the workforce do so because they are UNSUPPORTED in their home.

    Many women aren’t dropping out of the workforce because they cannot afford to; not sure what rock you are living under. They are more likely to dump their selfish husband and decrease their at home workload.

  305. Kaija24
    Kaija24 July 3, 2012 at 2:12 pm |

    I’m sure that the experience you’re relating are true for you and the social circle that you run in, and I agree that is it infuriating when certain individuals want to “have their cake and eat it too” in some arrangement where the benefits/changes only run one way (something similar happens in some people’s attempts at open relationships, where one partner wants to have non-primary sexual contacts but doesn’t want the other partner to as well).

    I can add my own perspective that no one I know well, either in my immediate or extended family or my circle of close friends from college, is pursuing a traditional marriage or partnership arrangement. Most of them aren’t even into getting married, preferring longterm cohabitation (like 5, 10 + years) in the absence of any religious or moral beliefs about ceremonies. In fact, some friends and acquaintances have bypassed the whole “marriage” arrangement simply because they feared the shit-ton of cultural/historical/gender baggage that seems to come with it and figured they’d have a better chance of working out things in the way that worked for the two of them without that hassle. Everyone I know, partnered or not, works because they have to and everyone expects to earn and spend their own money and take turns handing off roles at work and home as necessary. Most of us have decided to skip the whole kid trip as well. Having children is a not the automatic expectation that it once may have been (and I think that is a good thing!) and thus get to give the whole “having it all” problem a miss. It’s not traditionalist vs. feminists, it’s just people making all sorts of choices in a quickly changing society….sometimes they work out, sometimes they don’t. There are no guarantees that if you pick this kind of person (traditionalist, feminist, anarchist, Xtianist, etc) that it’ll be happy ever after. However, the fact is that people aren’t all doing X or Y so we should avoid extending those types of claims to all people everywhere based on the bad (or good) behavior of a couple of individuals.

    I’m glad that my own parents, raised in the 50s and 60s, both worked and traded off ALL family duties, from paying bills to changing diapers to car maintenance to cooking, and everyone was expected to “make yourself useful.” My dad was and still is the best cook in the family, and we missed his dinners when football season was on and he was coaching after school. Their own parents, all immigrants, traded off work and home depending on who could GET work as employment in the coal mine and the dress factory was off and on; whoever was lucky enough to have work worked like hell while the pay was coming in, and whoever was between jobs or laid off did the gardening, house chores, cooking, tending to family and relatives, etc–just as it’s been for most working class people for the last umpteen years. As I mentioned in previous comments, very very few people have the luxury of a choice of whether or not to work or whether or not to take on a full-time adult dependent instead of a teammate as a partner.

    Jobs come and go, but a good partner with a good heart, a fair mind, and the ability to roll with life and problem-solve as a team is something that doesn’t correlate with either gender or earning potential or good looks, and I think most people figure that out eventually.

  306. ASH
    ASH July 3, 2012 at 2:17 pm |

    “The results suggest that the risk of divorce among working mothers, while greater, is substantially reduced when fathers contribute more to housework and childcare. ”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7719666/Divorce-twice-as-likely-when-husbands-neglect-housework.html

  307. ASH
    ASH July 3, 2012 at 2:19 pm |

    “n traditional families where the husband was the breadwinner and the wife stayed at home to raise their children and carry out all of the housework, the research calculated the probability of divorce at 3.3 per cent.

    Where the woman also had a paid job, the likelihood that they would split up rose to 6.5 per cent.

    But if the father also carried out his fair share of chores, that risk fell again to 4.5 per cent and if he also looked after their child while his wife worked, it dropped still further back to 3.2 per cent.

    The risk of divorce was said to be almost doubled – 97 per cent higher – when the mother went out to work but her husband made a “minimal contribution” to housework and childcare.”

  308. Kaija24
    Kaija24 July 3, 2012 at 2:34 pm |

    I think what I was trying to get at is that Mike’s world is mostly populated by people who adhere to a very traditional division of roles by gender and the ideas being discussed by feminists and sociologists don’t jive with his experience. My world is mostly populated with people who never adhered to traditional division of roles and gender so the ideas being discussed by feminists and sociologist seem like “well, yeah, duh?”. Other commenters have related their experiences with feeling caught in the middle and having to work out where they stand and how they (and the others in their circles) feel about it. The jumble of voices is interesting, fascinating even, to me…and not something we need to fight out about who is speaking “the truth”. However, I think we are struggling to find our own work/life balances and can learn from each other or at least be sympathetic to the struggles of others.

    I for one have had to sit down and really think about what it must be like for women in academia (many of my close friends and family members) to feel pressure about when to have children with respect to job opportunities and tenure and menopause, etc. It’s obviously something real in the world that causes a lot of stress to people I love even though it’s an abstract and disconnected idea to me, and I am more sensitive to that as a result.

  309. Kaija24
    Kaija24 July 3, 2012 at 2:34 pm |

    I think what I was trying to get at is that Mike’s world is mostly populated by people who adhere to a very traditional division of roles by gender and the ideas being discussed by feminists and sociologists don’t jive with his experience. My world is mostly populated with people who never adhered to traditional division of roles and gender so the ideas being discussed by feminists and sociologist seem like “well, yeah, duh?”. Other commenters have related their experiences with feeling caught in the middle and having to work out where they stand and how they (and the others in their circles) feel about it. The jumble of voices is interesting, fascinating even, to me…and not something we need to fight out about who is speaking “the truth”. However, I think we are struggling to find our own work/life balances and can learn from each other or at least be sympathetic to the struggles of others.

    I for one have had to sit down and really think about what it must be like for women in academia (many of my close friends and family members) to feel pressure about when to have children with respect to job opportunities and tenure and menopause, etc. It’s obviously something real in the world that causes a lot of stress to people I love even though it’s an abstract and disconnected idea to me, and I am more sensitive to that as a result.

  310. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 2:54 pm |

    Like I said, that a feminist is modern and has all those ambitions does not mean she gave up rather traditional expectations towards a mate. Men experience this, feel this, see men who do not meet those expectations, or no longer meet them falling flat on their face, unsupported, while women who do not have a “real job” seem not to be in that situation.

    As long as that wont change, men will put the chores dead last on the priority list. Many women will put up with that, what they will not put up with, is supporting a stay at home husband, or, as they call it, a Manchild. Men know this and act accordingly. Hubbies career first, wifeys career second. If she leaves because of that, he still has his job and can start over. If he does not have his career, he cant start over.

  311. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 2:54 pm |

    Like I said, that a feminist is modern and has all those ambitions does not mean she gave up rather traditional expectations towards a mate. Men experience this, feel this, see men who do not meet those expectations, or no longer meet them falling flat on their face, unsupported, while women who do not have a “real job” seem not to be in that situation.

    As long as that wont change, men will put the chores dead last on the priority list. Many women will put up with that, what they will not put up with, is supporting a stay at home husband, or, as they call it, a Manchild. Men know this and act accordingly. Hubbies career first, wifeys career second. If she leaves because of that, he still has his job and can start over. If he does not have his career, he cant start over.

  312. anne
    anne July 3, 2012 at 3:17 pm |

    Well this might have been a productive and interesting conversation if one or two dudes weren’t allowed to suck all the air out of it with their lockstep essentialist horseshit.

  313. Angel H.
    Angel H. July 3, 2012 at 3:25 pm |

    Apparently, expecting your husband not to be an irresponsible, entitled, little shit is having “traditional expectations towards a mate”.

    Who knew?

  314. Angel H.
    Angel H. July 3, 2012 at 3:34 pm |

    Also, as somebody already said upthread, it is not a wife’s job to motivate her husband to be a good person. The husband should want to share in the childcare because it’s IT’S HIS CHILD. The husband should want to share in the housework because IT’S HIS HOUSE, TOO. The husband should want to relieve some of the burden off of his wife because SHE’S HIS WIFE.

  315. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 3:40 pm |

    Well this might have been a productive and interesting conversation if one or two dudes weren’t allowed to suck all the air out of it with their lockstep essentialist horseshit.

    Thumbs up for calling for censorship. And ad hominem attack. Horesshit? I guess only make nicks end up in moderation. I only started posting weeelll past post 200.

    Apparently, expecting your husband not to be an irresponsible, entitled, little shit is having “traditional expectations towards a mate”.

    Pretty much, yes. Women seem to have an easier time getting away with that, else malls wouldnt work. As long as a career is for personal fulfillment to a woman, but in the end somehow it works without one too (stay at home wifes, child support etc. ) and a decent job or just sufficient financial affluency for a man is a perquisite for a man to have a life worth living, men will cling on more to their job or career than women and that is reflected in the statistics.

    If feminism would work for men too, then maybe it would be different, but instead of pointing out the bias towards men when it comes to who gets custody and who pays child support, feminists do the exact opposite arguing that having a demanding career shouldn’t get in a divorcing womans way of obtaining full custody for the children.

    It looks like men are expected to pay, expected by everybody to pay. To pay we need a career or at least a decent job. So Hubbies Job > wifeys job.

  316. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 3:40 pm |

    Well this might have been a productive and interesting conversation if one or two dudes weren’t allowed to suck all the air out of it with their lockstep essentialist horseshit.

    Thumbs up for calling for censorship. And ad hominem attack. Horesshit? I guess only make nicks end up in moderation. I only started posting weeelll past post 200.

    Apparently, expecting your husband not to be an irresponsible, entitled, little shit is having “traditional expectations towards a mate”.

    Pretty much, yes. Women seem to have an easier time getting away with that, else malls wouldnt work. As long as a career is for personal fulfillment to a woman, but in the end somehow it works without one too (stay at home wifes, child support etc. ) and a decent job or just sufficient financial affluency for a man is a perquisite for a man to have a life worth living, men will cling on more to their job or career than women and that is reflected in the statistics.

    If feminism would work for men too, then maybe it would be different, but instead of pointing out the bias towards men when it comes to who gets custody and who pays child support, feminists do the exact opposite arguing that having a demanding career shouldn’t get in a divorcing womans way of obtaining full custody for the children.

    It looks like men are expected to pay, expected by everybody to pay. To pay we need a career or at least a decent job. So Hubbies Job > wifeys job.

  317. Angel H.
    Angel H. July 3, 2012 at 3:56 pm |

    I only started posting weeelll past post 200.

    That right here? That is your main problem.

    anne wasn’t quoting you directly, so there was no reason to think she was talking about you. (Unless you are readily admitting that you were spouting essentialist horsehit. In that case, mea culpa.)

    What I’m getting at is, it’s not all about you. A marriage is supposed to be a partnership. It’s not all about what the husband brings to the table or the wife’s expectations of the husband.

    Whatever problems you are having in your marriage is not the fault of feminism. Talk to your wife, go to a counselor, get the fuck out, or (this last one will be especially difficult, I’m sure) stop being such a dick.

    How any of the other commenters have spent so long trying to talk to you as if you were arguing in good faith, is beyond me.

  318. Angel H.
    Angel H. July 3, 2012 at 4:05 pm |

    Don’t blame feminism because you won’t get your ass off the couch to wash the damn dishes.

  319. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 4:09 pm |

    I dont have problems with my wife. Like I said before, there are many reasons a marriage can succeed or fail. A man can do “his share” at home and the marriage still fail. Or he can be the primary breadwinner and the marriage still fails. Or the stay at home husband and the marriage still fails.

    By the same token a marriage does not necessarily fail because the wife does more chores than the husband.

    However women do have pretty traditional expectation towards men, so does society. As a consequence, like I said before, a decent job or better a career is a perquisite for a man to have a life worth living. A woman can get by without a good job or career. She can still be a stay at home wife or get any job to subsidize the child support she receives and then there is government aid. A stay at home husband is seen as a “manchild” by most women, no matter how clean he keeps the house.

    Then there is the divorce situation I mentioned before. If the situation would be different for men, more men would pitch in with the chores. But seen as men even today are by a large part defined by society and women and feminist women too what job or career they have, whether they have a job or career men rather take the gamble to let the chores slide than their performance at work.

    A many man has been kicked out by wifey because “you do not pull your weight financially”. To how many wifes did that happen. And like I said before, a stay at home husband who was the primary caretaker of the children with no career of his own will still lose primary custody to the ex wife, because there is a bias against men in divorce court, which is not only not addressed by feminists, but defended and encouraged.

  320. ASH
    ASH July 3, 2012 at 4:13 pm |

    Mike is talking about effing ad hominem attacks that aren’t.

    This is “dungone”. If it isn’t, it is his Doppelganger.

  321. ASH
    ASH July 3, 2012 at 4:26 pm |

    “However women do have pretty traditional expectation towards men, so does society.”As a consequence, like I said before, a decent job or better a career is a perquisite for a man to have a life worth living.”

    Seriously, sociey might put these pressures on you, but you can either decide to “cave” or do what makes you happy. You are deciding that your career makes your life worth living. You could certainly find a woman that doesn’t give a flip about your career.

    “A woman can get by without a good job or career.”

    I’m sorry, but WUT? SOME women are in positions to make that choice. Many of are not and do not want to “get by” without a good job or career.

    “She can still be a stay at home wife or get any job to subsidize the child support she receives and then there is government aid.”

    Unless she doesn’t want to get married to an insufferable ass who can’t be bothered to pick up after himself. Or she isn’t straight and does not feel that living a lie is better than getting a job. Or she does not/cannot have children……..

    “A stay at home husband is seen as a “manchild” by most women, no matter how clean he keeps the house.”

    A stay at home husband who does the SAME AMOUNT OF WORK as a SAH WIFE isn’t a MANCHILD. A manchild doesn’t work outside of the home or inside the home.

    You have a reading comprehension issue, which also sounds familiar.

    I guess you didn’t bother to read the study that found that marriage most likely to end in divorce involve husband and wife working outside the home when the husband does minimal amount of work in the home.

  322. Angel H.
    Angel H. July 3, 2012 at 4:33 pm |

    A woman can get by without a good job or career. She can still be a stay at home wife or get any job to subsidize the child support she receives and then there is government aid.

    Bullshit.Bullshit.BULLSHIIIIIT.

    You honestly think that government aid and child support are enough to support a woman with a child? I know 200 women and children who could tell you otherwise.

    A stay at home husband is seen as a “manchild” by most women, no matter how clean he keeps the house.</blockquote?

    If by SAHH, you mean some guy who spends all day sitting on the couch and doing nothing while his wife is at work, then yes, manchild.

    If by SAHH, you mean a guy who does the household chores, cars for the children, run errands, and fixes meals while the wife is at work because it's the right thing to do, that man is a responsible adult.

    If the situation would be different for men, more men would pitch in with the chores.

    I have another comment in mod that addresses this, but I’ll say it again:

    Don’t blame feminism because you’re too damn lazy to get your ass off the couch to do the dishes.

    A many man has been kicked out by wifey because “you do not pull your weight financially”.

    If that couple has an agreement that she would stay at home with the kids while he provides the financial support but he refuses to do so, damn straight he should be kicked out by “wifey”.

  323. zuzu
    zuzu July 3, 2012 at 4:37 pm |

    Bottom line if you want more men on the bandwagon, make feminism work for them too. For example do something about the “Children belong with the mother” notion in divorce court. Maybe more men will be willing to compromise their own career by picking up the slack at home, if divorce for such a man does not mean financial Armageddon with a side order of jail time.

    Oh, Mike. So self-contradicting.

    First, why is it feminism’s job to fix things for men?

    Second, a good way for men to contradict the idea that children belong with the mother — which, by the way, is of rather recent vintage, since children were for centuries considered property of the father and the mother lost custody in a divorce — is to take on the tasks of childcare during the marriage.

    I mean, do you really think it’s terribly convincing to a court deciding a custody application when the parent who is seeking custody hasn’t lifted a finger to care for them while they all lived under the same roof? What is that court to do when presented with someone who didn’t want to take care of the kids during the marriage and doesn’t want to pay his fair share for their upkeep afterwards?

    And, really, do you think that a custodial parent doesn’t contribute at all to the care and feeding of the children, and that it’s only the blood, sweat and tears of the poor non-custodial parent keeping them alive while the CP lives it up? Did it somehow escape your notice while the kids were living with you that they eat, and need a place to sleep, and require clothes and medical care? Kids don’t just cost money after divorce, you know.

  324. Angel H.
    Angel H. July 3, 2012 at 4:41 pm |

    First, why is it feminism’s job to fix things for men?

    THANK YOU!!!

    Second, a good way for men to contradict the idea that children belong with the mother … is to take on the tasks of childcare during the marriage.

    YES!!!!!

  325. anne
    anne July 3, 2012 at 5:10 pm |

    Fuckin’ dudes and their incessant sniveling about “ad hominems” and “censorship.”

    It’s called criticism. You’re not exempt from it, precious.

  326. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 5:42 pm |

    Fuckin’ dudes and their incessant sniveling about “ad hominems” and “censorship.”

    It’s called criticism. You’re not exempt from it, precious.

    No it isnt. Its an ad hominem attack and slinging insults. Many people confuse that with criticism.

    A stay at home husband who does the SAME AMOUNT OF WORK as a SAH WIFE isn’t a MANCHILD.

    Sadly many women do not feel that way or will rationalize to themselves that he does not put in the same ammount of work, although the house is spotless and the children straight A students.

    First, why is it feminism’s job to fix things for men?

    Its women who predominantly like feminism, right? If you feel that you will have your feminist world, wether men like it or not, then no, its not up to feminism to fix things for men. However if you feel men need to be feminists to, to meet the goals of feminism, then feminism should get on fixing things for men too. It might be tough for you for swallow, but most men could care less if the society they live in is feminist or not. And if being a male feminist does not work for them, then they will not be a feminist. I know because I do not live my life with feminism in mind.

    So if you as a feminist, want more men to join up, then you should look into it that feminism works for men too. Because men wont fix it, I certainly wont, if feminism does not work for them, then they will not be feminists and thats it. I dont see it working for me and therefore I am not. That is fine by me, if its fine for you too, then fine, feminism does not need to fix a thing for men.

    Second, a good way for men to contradict the idea that children belong with the mother … is to take on the tasks of childcare during the marriage.

    So the “if women want to be payed the same as men, they should work as hard as men.” deal when it comes to addressing the paygap. Men are the ones who pay child support in a divorce, regardless of wether they were the primary caretaker during the marriage or not, with rare exceptions. But I said that before. Like I said, there is nothing in it for a man to be a feminist. Men are content with NOT being feminists. If feminists want more men to be feminists, then they need to fix feminism so that it works for men too, because if it doesnt men wont do it. Most of us are happy with not being feminists.

    As it is being a feminist is a huge gamble for a man and I am not a gambling person.

  327. pheenobarbidoll
    pheenobarbidoll July 3, 2012 at 5:44 pm |

    Look all I am saying, if you want your feminist world, make sure THE WOMEN are feminists first, before you worry about the men, because as it is now, good looking women do carthwheels for an A-Rod, rather than somebody who can display his prowess in housework skills.

    And here we have the crux of it.

    Mike’s not actually worried that men won’t get laid or dates or married. He’s worried they won’t get GOOD LOOKING women.

    The women who don’t meet that standard but would be happy to date him and possibly marry him? They don’t count, or exist because they aren’t hawt enough.

    There are just as many women saying ” good looking men do cartwheels over Kim Kardashian, rather than someone who can display her prowess at welding/WoW/tire changing/ etc etc”.

    He doesn’t hear those women though, he’s too busy looking for tits and ass.

    1. maggiemay
      maggiemay July 3, 2012 at 5:52 pm |

      @pheenobarbidoll—–

      amen, i was about to call mike out on that shit 2, but U beat me 2 it, and said it better than i would have

      when R these clueless dudebros gonna realize that the trophy women R always gonna go 2 the donald trumps and the hugh hefners—-

  328. Natalie
    Natalie July 3, 2012 at 5:50 pm |

    I dont have problems with my wife.

    Sureee you don’t sweetie

  329. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune July 3, 2012 at 5:55 pm |

    Pheeno I love you. ^__^

  330. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 5:55 pm |

    Fuckin’ dudes and their incessant sniveling about “ad hominems” and “censorship.”

    It’s called criticism. You’re not exempt from it, precious.

    No it isnt. Its an ad hominem attack and slinging insults. Many people confuse that with criticism.

    A stay at home husband who does the SAME AMOUNT OF WORK as a SAH WIFE isn’t a MANCHILD.

    Sadly many women do not feel that way or will rationalize to themselves that he does not put in the same ammount of work, although the house is spotless and the children straight A students.

    First, why is it feminism’s job to fix things for men?

    Its women who predominantly like feminism, right? If you feel that you will have your feminist world, wether men like it or not, then no, its not up to feminism to fix things for men. However if you feel men need to be feminists to, to meet the goals of feminism, then feminism should get on fixing things for men too. It might be tough for you for swallow, but most men could care less if the society they live in is feminist or not. And if being a male feminist does not work for them, then they will not be a feminist. I know because I do not live my life with feminism in mind.

    So if you as a feminist, want more men to join up, then you should look into it that feminism works for men too. Because men wont fix it, I certainly wont, if feminism does not work for them, then they will not be feminists and thats it. I dont see it working for me and therefore I am not. That is fine by me, if its fine for you too, then fine, feminism does not need to fix a thing for men.

    Second, a good way for men to contradict the idea that children belong with the mother … is to take on the tasks of childcare during the marriage.

    So the “if women want to be payed the same as men, they should work as hard as men.” deal when it comes to addressing the paygap. Men are the ones who pay child support in a divorce, regardless of wether they were the primary caretaker during the marriage or not, with rare exceptions. But I said that before. Like I said, there is nothing in it for a man to be a feminist. Men are content with NOT being feminists. If feminists want more men to be feminists, then they need to fix feminism so that it works for men too, because if it doesnt men wont do it. Most of us are happy with not being feminists.

    As it is being a feminist is a huge gamble for a man and I am not a gambling person.

  331. anne
    anne July 3, 2012 at 5:57 pm |

    “No it isnt. Its an ad hominem attack”

    You just repeating the same things over and over doesn’t make them true. Not even if you put a real alpha dog swagger into it.

  332. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 6:02 pm |

    Bottom line is, I told you why IN MY OPINION, many men do not jump up on the feminist bandwagon and why feminism basically stagnates and women are still doing the majority of the housework.

    You can just keep ignoring what I said and hope and pray men will become feminists in droves out of altruistic reasons.

    Or you can look into why feminism does not work for men, why most men think it isnt so hot and can try and spread the idea to make feminism work for men too, so that more men become feminists.

    Because like I said, I and many many men, do not care either way about feminism. If it does not work for us, we do not become feminism. If feminists fixes feminism so that it works for us too, then yes, we might be more willing to be feminists.

  333. pheenobarbidoll
    pheenobarbidoll July 3, 2012 at 6:16 pm |

    Because like I said, I and many many men, do not care either way about feminism. If it does not work for us, we do not become feminism. If feminists fixes feminism so that it works for us too, then yes, we might be more willing to be feminists.

    You’ll just have to excuse me then if I don’t want those men as feminists. Just like I wouldn’t want some spoiled little jackass white person saying ” if POC would just make anti racism work for WHITE people, then we’d do it”

    You’re a fucking grown up. Men are fucking grown ups. Do your own homework, figure this shit out for yourself like grown ups do. Feminists don’t support ” fathers can’t be nurturers” and never fucking have, yet men still perpetuate child rearing as womens work so NO, even seeing that feminism would work for them doesn’t change shit.

    Feminists have spoken about and posted about how the patriarchy hurts men too. Yet here we are, still listening to some idiot claim we have to make it work for men too.

    Either men aren’t listening or you’re stupid as fuck. Either way, short of nailing a sign that says the P hurts men too to your fucking forehead, most feminists are done being your mommy.

    Grow up.

  334. anne
    anne July 3, 2012 at 6:18 pm |

    Well enough of your opinion already. You keep stating it as though it’s unassailable fact – you haven’t even acknowledged that it’s your opinion until just now – and you’ve already posted the same shit like two hundred times.
    Lack of feminism doesn’t work for women, so why don’t you go look into that.

  335. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 6:25 pm |

    I am getting a feeling some people on here feel attacked by me. You gals think I am the problem? You should be grateful, I am the one communicating and providing info. You should see as the problem the men who stay away from their board, live their life the way it suits them best, not caring about being a feminist at all.

    I said its my opinion that men do not become feminists because it does not work for them. That it does not work for them and needs fixing is a fact. Who knows maybe they wont become feminists if it has been fixed where it needs fixing either.

    However I would say its a safe bet that more men would be willing to be feminists if it does work for them too.

  336. anne
    anne July 3, 2012 at 6:34 pm |

    Of course you think “gals…should be grateful” for you imparting your fresh manly wisdom about how we can shape our lives to better please men.

    You should go over to Racialicious and grace them with your advice on how they can be good coloreds.

  337. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune July 3, 2012 at 6:43 pm |

    You gals think I am the problem? You should be grateful, I am the one communicating and providing info.

    Aww, that’s so sweet! It earned you one (1) cookie. Description: White icing on a shit muffin that says “Explains very carefully to silly wimmin on the internets.” Enjoy! ♥

  338. zuzu
    zuzu July 3, 2012 at 6:46 pm |

    Its women who predominantly like feminism, right? If you feel that you will have your feminist world, wether men like it or not, then no, its not up to feminism to fix things for men. However if you feel men need to be feminists to, to meet the goals of feminism, then feminism should get on fixing things for men too. It might be tough for you for swallow, but most men could care less if the society they live in is feminist or not. And if being a male feminist does not work for them, then they will not be a feminist. I know because I do not live my life with feminism in mind.

    So. You want feminists to clean up after you and provide you with the things you want, rather than you working hard and getting those things for yourself. As, you know, feminists had to do.

    Men are the ones who pay child support in a divorce, regardless of wether they were the primary caretaker during the marriage or not, with rare exceptions.

    Actually, both parents pay to support the child after the divorce. It’s just that it’s the non-custodial parent who has to pay in a lump sum and have it called “child support.”

    Love to see your support (links) for your assertion that men and only men pay child support, regardless of whether they are the custodial parent.

    I am getting a feeling some people on here feel attacked by me.

    Hey, you’re the one crying about ad hominems. I think you’re projecting.

    You gals think I am the problem? You should be grateful, I am the one communicating and providing info. You should see as the problem the men who stay away from their board, live their life the way it suits them best, not caring about being a feminist at all.

    I am ON MY KNEES WITH GRATITUDE. I have never, ever heard what you’re saying before! It’s a revelation!

  339. IrishUp
    IrishUp July 3, 2012 at 6:52 pm |

    Men: Willing to be Feminists if Feminism was more like Patriarchy.

    Thanks, Mike!

  340. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 6:56 pm |

    Men: Willing to be Feminists if Feminism was more like Patriarchy.

    Thanks, Mike!

    Where did you get that? I gave an example, but its being blocked sadly.

  341. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 6:57 pm |

    “Shape our lives to better please men”? You have something by women for women and they want men to become a part of it and NO FEMINIST ever wondered how it all works out for men. So its like you dont care what it is like for us but we should play along anyway.

    But lets talk about one of the things feminism could fix, the bias when it comes to child custody. If I get divorced, it is most likely she will get custody and I will be the one paying, regardless of what happened at home, unless she is a knifewielding crack whore.

    This bias is something feminists could fix, so men feel more comfortable taking care of the chores and the children, so that if the marriage should fail, after compromising their career or even ending it to pitch in at work, they get a fair shake at being the one receiving child support and getting primary custody.

    Let me tell you what feminists do instead. They oppose the men who try to fight that bias, such as fathers for rights group. NO woman complains about that bias.

    And I should become a feminists? Maybe you can go tell laks they should join the clan and club themselves.

    As it is I stand a shitty chance to get primary custody of the children and child support, thats something feminism needs to fix, not oppose. That is one of the reasons I do not feel comfortable to compromise my career so she can have her career too.

  342. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 6:59 pm |

    “Shape our lives to better please men”?

    You have something by women for women and they want men to become a part of it and no feminist ever wondered how it all works out for men. So its like you do not care what it is like for us but we should play along anyway.

    But lets talk about one of the things feminism could fix, the bias when it comes to child custody. If I get divorced, it is most likely she will get custody and I will be the one paying, regardless of what happened at home.

    This bias is something feminists could fix, so men feel more comfortable taking care of the chores and the children, so that if the marriage should fail, after compromising their career or even ending it to pitch in at work, they get a fair shake at being the one receiving child support and getting primary custody.

    Let me tell you what feminists do instead. They oppose the men who try to fight that bias, such as fathers for rights group. No woman complains about that bias.

    And I should become a feminists? Maybe you can go tell colored they should join the clan and club themselves.

    As it is I stand a shitty chance to get primary custody of the children and child support, thats something feminism needs to fix, not oppose. That is one of the reasons I do not feel comfortable to compromise my career so she can have her career too.

  343. ASH
    ASH July 3, 2012 at 7:05 pm |

    Mike/Dungone

    “Sadly many women do not feel that way or will rationalize to themselves that he does not put in the same amount of work, although the house is spotless and the children straight A students.”

    There are women on THIS BOARD who are telling you THEIR personal thoughts and do not agree with you. So, let’s cut the shit with the “many women”.

    Your bullshit rationale regarding your opinion has no basis in fact. You have your mind made up.

    Ad hominem and telling women that you can do it better than them aka previous comments is sad and tired.

    I frankly, at this point, couldn’t give two fucks about what you think about feminism because you are a selfish douche.

    We are NOT your mommy. We are not here to wipe your ass, clean up your shit, or make it easier for you in what is already a world that favors men. The fact that you think we should actually work to help you out more as a priority and take your sexist “advice” or anything is a laugh.

    I have a feeling though, at some point and only because the world and workplace is changing, that you are going to encounter a woman who has made it farther than you with a supportive husband and she will have no desire to suffer through your shit. I’ve already seen this happening more and more in work.

  344. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune July 3, 2012 at 7:05 pm |

    And I should become a feminists? Maybe you can go tell colored they should join the clan and club themselves.

    Feminism: just like the KKK, apparently.

    BUT WHERE ARE THE BURNING CONDOMS? I DEMAND BURNING CONDOMS ON MY LAWN!

  345. Mike
    Mike July 3, 2012 at 7:10 pm |

    Well yes, the KKK is kinda opposed to the rights of colored people. Feminists are kinda opposed to bettering the situation for fathers among other things. They are not the same, okay, but you can not expect men to become part of “the enemy camp” .

    But if you feel a “feminism by women for women men? Fuck them” will work and men will join up regardless, then good for you. Then there is no problem and we all will live in zhe feminist paradise and all those articles on why feminism isnt here yet are just a waste of time, because we only need to wait for feminism to happen.

  346. ASH
    ASH July 3, 2012 at 7:11 pm |

    “This bias is something feminists could fix, so men feel more comfortable taking care of the chores and the children, so that if the marriage should fail, after compromising their career or even ending it to pitch in at work, they get a fair shake at being the one receiving child support and getting primary custody. ”

    You seem to think that feminism alone can fix this.

    Why do you not implore your fellow MEN to try and change how childrearing is viewed? If men viewed it as a more IMPORTANT task and would get involved, more men would get more rights when it came to their children.

    If all men see in their children is the money “she is going to get”, that’s not a parent. I don’t care how much money he pays. Paying out a lump sum every two weeks/once a month isn’t parenting, it’s a payment.

  347. anne
    anne July 3, 2012 at 7:14 pm |

    blah blah blah blah blah

    zuzu explained upthread how men can ensure they get equitable custody in case of divorce. You must have been too enthralled with your own gracious man-pleasing advice to notice.

    And I should become a feminists? Maybe you can go tell colored they should join the clan and club themselves.

    Fucking MRA. Of course.

  348. EG
    EG July 3, 2012 at 7:19 pm |

    I have never, ever heard what you’re saying before! It’s a revelation!

    Right? Jeez, is it difficult for men to get the pussy? That’s such a shame. How do you live with that burden?

    If I get divorced, it is most likely she will get custody and I will be the one paying, regardless of what happened at home.

    This bias is something feminists could fix, so men feel more comfortable taking care of the chores and the children, so that if the marriage should fail, after compromising their career or even ending it to pitch in at work, they get a fair shake at being the one receiving child support and getting primary custody.

    The bias is toward primary caretakers. If you would like to become a primary caretaker, you too would could get custody.

    I like, though, how it’s feminists’ job to make the poor widdle men feel more comfortable doing domestic labor. Aw, is snookums not comfortable doing the dishes or scrubbing the toilet or walking the baby back to sleep for the third time that night? Does he need his hand held? Because obviously women are just super comfortable doing those things; why, we revel in them!

    And then you compare men to “coloreds” (really?) and feminists to the Klan? What the fuck is wrong with you? Could you find me a feminist terrorist group with a history of kidnapping, torturing, and murdering men going back 150 years? No? Then that’s a piss-poor analogy.

    Poor oppressed men. It’s just like what black people had to face from the KKK. You’ve got to be fucking kidding me.

  349. Mirco
    Mirco July 3, 2012 at 7:23 pm |

    The bias is toward primary caretakers. If you would like to become a primary caretaker, you too would could get custody.

    No it is not. That is the problem. The men who are trying to change that are being actively opposed by some feminist organisations or at least self labeled feminist organisations.

  350. Mirco
    Mirco July 3, 2012 at 7:25 pm |

    Fucking MRA. Of course.

    So a mans rights activist is something bad now? How do you think men would think about feminists, if they see a feminist denigrating a mens rights activist? Do you think they would want to be feminists?

  351. anne
    anne July 3, 2012 at 7:40 pm |

    EG – To be fair, I’m the one who first brought “coloreds” into this in comment 354. I was using it ironically.

  352. Mirco
    Mirco July 3, 2012 at 7:44 pm |

    EG – To be fair, I’m the one who first brought “coloreds” into this in comment 354. I was using it ironically.

    Yeah but I am the evil mens rights activist. Maybe I should post with the nicky girly girl in future.

  353. Hamgravy
    Hamgravy July 3, 2012 at 10:25 pm |

    Most of us are happy with not being feminists.

    You don’t seem that happy, Mike.

    To the question of “making it work for men,” my wife and I have consciously chosen to share our duties inside and outside the home in a way that is mutually agreeable to us. Each of us supports the other when we need to. She doesn’t see me as a meal ticket, and I don’t see her as a maid. We see each other as partners…which is about a trillion times more fun than the type of relationship Mike eloquently describes.

    You know what makes that possible? Feminism.

    Feminism works out pretty good for me. Being able to relate honestly to not only my wife but loads of other intelligent, beautiful, happenin women I know as friends and equals…being able to relate to women as individual human beings who don’t all desire the same things and behave the same way, like the women in Mike’s world apparently do…it works out pretty good for me.

    But, Mike, the thing about your “What’s in it for me” rants, though, is I didn’t see anyone trying to recruit you. I’m sure everyone here would be content for you to just go away.

    (For those who think Mike is Dungone…If I’m remembering it right, Dungone had way better grammar.)

    Just chiming in because I hadn’t seen anyone debunk the notion that “feminism doesn’t work for men” yet. The hell it doesn’t.

  354. Shigekuni
    Shigekuni July 4, 2012 at 4:56 am |

    Mike is German, if I’m not mistaken. Dungone wasn’t, I’m sure.

  355. Lars
    Lars July 4, 2012 at 5:35 am |

    Whatever problems you are having in your marriage is not the fault of feminism. Talk to your wife, go to a counselor, get the fuck out, or (this last one will be especially difficult, I’m sure) stop being such a dick.

    That.

    Men faulting “feminism” for every problem their see in the world is getting really old. Having a conflict with a woman, your partner wanting things you do not, or a woman expressing political views you do not share, or simply changes in society that you’re not comfortable with – over and over we see men blaming “feminism”. It’s a way to avoid responsibility for your own views and for resolving whatever disagreements you have with others. It’s so much easier to say “whatever a women is doing or saying is because of feminism, and feminism is wrong, so there”.

  356. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 4, 2012 at 7:55 am |

    First, why is it feminism’s job to fix things for men?

    Well, potentially, one understanding it is about gender equality, gender roles, patriarchy and whatnot, so supposedly it’s about all sexes. Of course, that’s one interpretation of feminism.

    Either way, i’m not holding my breath, here at least, seeing as dick insults are completely unproblematic for feministe commentariat, while someone calling someone here a cunt would trigger a shitstorm.

  357. ASH
    ASH July 5, 2012 at 9:21 am |

    “Well, potentially, one understanding it is about gender equality, gender roles, patriarchy and whatnot, so supposedly it’s about all sexes. Of course, that’s one interpretation of feminism.”

    I’m all for men who want to step up and help out the feminist cause.
    Feminism isn’t here to SERVE men, which I think is the point.
    When the feminists are done with the oppression of women, we’ll get around to making male issues our top priority, but until then, I am pretty sure that if men do not like inequality that they see happening, they are are more than capable of working on it themselves.

    I will be more than willing to support equality in the justice system when men start to acknowledge that child rearing is important beyond a payment.

    I’m not everyone’s “mommy” and it isn’t my job to stop what I am doing to make sure that men are happy about it.

  358. Natalie
    Natalie July 5, 2012 at 12:47 pm |

    dick insults are completely unproblematic for feministe commentariat, while someone calling someone here a cunt would trigger a shitstorm.

    Do you seriously think calling someone a cunt is in the same order of magnitude as calling someone a dick?

  359. Mxe354
    Mxe354 July 5, 2012 at 1:46 pm |

    Do you seriously think calling someone a cunt is in the same order of magnitude as calling someone a dick?

    Well, I agree that calling someone a cunt can’t be compared to calling someone a dick. We shouldn’t ignore the nature of gendered insults. But I think that’s beside Tomek’s point. All gendered insults, including “dick”, should be avoided. They do nothing but reify patriarchal stereotypes.

  360. anne
    anne July 5, 2012 at 2:03 pm |

    Nah. It’s being a dick that reifies patriarchal stereotypes.

  361. Mxe354
    Mxe354 July 5, 2012 at 2:21 pm |

    Nah. It’s being a dick that reifies patriarchal stereotypes.

    Of course “being a dick” reifies patriarchal stereotypes. So does using the word “dick” to insult someone. Show me how it’s not a gendered insult and I’ll agree that it’s benign. Just because it’s not as bad as “cunt” doesn’t mean it’s totally acceptable.

  362. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 5, 2012 at 3:00 pm |

    ASH,

    I’m all for men who want to step up and help out the feminist cause.
    Feminism isn’t here to SERVE men, which I think is the point.
    When the feminists are done with the oppression of women, we’ll get around to making male issues our top priority, but until then, I am pretty sure that if men do not like inequality that they see happening, they are are more than capable of working on it themselves.

    Yeah, sure, it’s not to serve. Though i disagree with the rest, about prioritizing, both from ideological (moral), theoretical (it’s too interconnected) and political/practical perspectives (it’s better to work at most if not everything at the same time and it’s more attractive for the people).

    I will be more than willing to support equality in the justice system when men start to acknowledge that child rearing is important beyond a payment.

    I’m not everyone’s “mommy” and it isn’t my job to stop what I am doing to make sure that men are happy about it.

    Well, whatever you prefer. I think it’s counterproductive, though.

    Natalie,

    Do you seriously think calling someone a cunt is in the same order of magnitude as calling someone a dick?

    Of course. How’s that even a question? Besides what Mxe said, it’s also a very sex-negative insult, which is obviously also a problem.

  363. ASH
    ASH July 5, 2012 at 4:36 pm |

    “Well, whatever you prefer. I think it’s counterproductive, though.”

    You know what is counterproductive? Women stopping in their plight for equality to worry about if men are alright and happy with our plight.

    We’ve already done that enough and it didn’t work out for us.

    The men that would expect women to continue to not being on level footing because it might be a little uncomfortable for them will never be our allies anyway. Why in the hell would I waste a single hot breath on them?

  364. zuzu
    zuzu July 5, 2012 at 4:42 pm |

    Well, potentially, one understanding it is about gender equality, gender roles, patriarchy and whatnot, so supposedly it’s about all sexes. Of course, that’s one interpretation of feminism.

    Did you miss the bit I was responding to? Where Mike demanded that feminists fix a situation he didn’t like to his benefit before he’d take feminists seriously?

    Did you also miss the widespread societal expectation that women are supposed to take care of and clean up after men rather than have men fix their own messes? Family courts only changed their “fathers get custody because children are property of the father” default after a lot of work by feminist activists and others. Mike now wants the current default, which is “best interests of the child,” which often works out to the primary caretaker (usually the mother, due to social norms) being awarded custody, to be changed AND he wants feminists to do the work for him. Instead of oh, say, convincing men to take on more of the caretaking role during the marriage and establishing themselves as the primary caretaker.

    Either way, i’m not holding my breath, here at least, seeing as dick insults are completely unproblematic for feministe commentariat, while someone calling someone here a cunt would trigger a shitstorm.

    Because there’s no such thing as context or connotation. And all gendered insults are exactly alike. Just like all racial insults are exactly alike.

  365. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 5, 2012 at 5:33 pm |

    ASH,

    I’m somewhat confused. I’m not native speaker and i thought plight is a noun not a verb. How can you “plight for equality”?

    If you mean that it was counterproductive for feminists (not women, since we’re talking about feminism, right?) to stop fighting for the betterment of women’s situation and worry whether men are okay with it, i’m not sure when did that happen. Not to say that’s not exactly what i meant, i wanted to say that gender issues don’t exist in vacuum and that it is impossible to separate feminine from masculine (among others).

    I’m not sure how paying heed to people who want sexes unequality even come into equation. I said that limiting oneself to the plight of one group give me creeps because it reminds me of what happens again and again in minority movements in regards to other minorities (and which is not pretty). I don’t think you can build equality on demonizing other groups, including the group that’s supposed (supposedly, because i don’t believe in the men as a uniform class concept) to be opressing you.

    Zuzu,
    I’m not sure how much is what Mike said relevant to what i said, i wanted to make more general remark. Yes, what he was saying was egoist, sure.

    As for that particular expectation, i seem to be missing it at the moment. But it is such general statement, and life is somewhat complex, so perhaps you mean some specific sphere of life? Because i don’t think there is general expectation that women should fix men messes. (take care, sure. In some ways. In other, men are supposed to take care of women. Clean up, well, domestic work comes to mind, but oil spills don’t).

    I don’t have opinion on custody rights, well, apart from the pact that “best interest of the child” is usually sad lie and the child interest is often discarded so that adults in general can get their interests satisfied while keeping their consciences clear. But i digress, Mike arguments sound disingenous for me.

    Although i don’t think that stating that men should just take more of the caretaking role is, well, insightful in any way. There is plenty of things that discourage men from doing so, so it’s like talking that women should just try technical studies more and ignoring things like, idk, products for kids portraying mathematics as something not for girls.

    Because there’s no such thing as context or connotation. And all gendered insults are exactly alike. Just like all racial insults are exactly alike.

    What’s the context and connotation and how it impacts the usage of these two words here, on feministe? Or in this thread in particular?

    Of course not all gendered insults are exactly alike. But i think these two are very similar.

  366. zuzu
    zuzu July 5, 2012 at 6:42 pm |

    Because i don’t think there is general expectation that women should fix men messes.

    Well, then. You must live in Utopia.

    Although i don’t think that stating that men should just take more of the caretaking role is, well, insightful in any way. There is plenty of things that discourage men from doing so, so it’s like talking that women should just try technical studies more and ignoring things like, idk, products for kids portraying mathematics as something not for girls.

    I can’t figure out if you’re being wilfully obtuse or if you really are that clueless. Go back and read Mike’s statements that I was responding to.

    What’s the context and connotation and how it impacts the usage of these two words here, on feministe? Or in this thread in particular?

    Of course not all gendered insults are exactly alike. But i think these two are very similar.

    You must have mistaken this for a 101 blog. Maybe you should go find out the context before you wave your big finger of shame at us.

  367. Donna L
    Donna L July 5, 2012 at 7:24 pm |

    Feminism isn’t here to SERVE men

    Unless it’s a cookbook.

  368. Mxe354
    Mxe354 July 5, 2012 at 7:36 pm |

    I’m honestly confused as to why people are saying that the word “dick” as an insult is not a gendered insult. I’m well aware of the importance of context, but I just don’t see how it applies here. I almost never hear reprehensible women being called “dicks.” That suggests to me that it’s a gendered insult. I could be wrong, but I’m currently unable to see it as a non-gendered insult. A little elaboration would be appreciated.

  369. ASH
    ASH July 5, 2012 at 10:05 pm |

    “You know what is counterproductive? Women stopping in their plight for equality to worry about if men are alright and happy with our plight.”

    Plight would not be a verb here, as it is a NOUN, as in our “case” for equality.

    “If you mean that it was counterproductive for feminists (not women, since we’re talking about feminism, right?) to stop fighting for the betterment of women’s situation and worry whether men are okay with it, i’m not sure when did that happen. ”

    It happens all the time. There are men and women all the time that blame feminism for every “horrible” thing that has happened in society. If you are not hearing this or seeing this, I suggest that you pay a little bit more attention.

    “Not to say that’s not exactly what i meant, i wanted to say that gender issues don’t exist in vacuum and that it is impossible to separate feminine from masculine (among others).”

    If you are implying that both women and men suffer under the Patriarchy, I will agree. If you’re trying to say that women and men suffer in equal parts under the same, I’d vehemently disagree.

    “I’m not sure how paying heed to people who want sexes unequality even come into equation. I said that limiting oneself to the plight of one group give me creeps because it reminds me of what happens again and again in minority movements in regards to other minorities (and which is not pretty).

    OK. Let me get this straight. You think that when feminism puts the issues of women at the forefront over the issues pertaining exclusively to men, that it is the same as white feminists excluding the voice of say, black feminists?

    No, it simply is not.

    I don’t think you can build equality on demonizing other groups, including the group that’s supposed (supposedly, because i don’t believe in the men as a uniform class concept) to be opressing you.”

    No one is demonizing any group.

    I said I am not going to worry about fixing male problems in an attempt to “entice” misogynists to join the feminist cause because they never will.

    Mike’s assertion was that if the feminist movement would just “fix” male problems, then he would join our group.

    And YES! that is expecting women to yet AGAIN fix male problems. This was after Mike repeatedly stated that he had no interest in meeting his partner on equal ground in terms of running the household, I’m assuming that this includes child rearing. So, he was to continue to be a sexist ass while all of the women worked to make it so that if he split with his wife, he would not have a “payment” or would get custody of children who he had a limited part in actually rearing.

    So, please explain, how is it fair for him to continue to be a misogynist in his “own best interest”, while we would be working on his behalf to make sure that his ex-wife and children get screwed if he decides he no longer wants to be married.

    Sorry, pal, that ain’t feminism.

  370. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 6, 2012 at 4:25 am |

    Zuzu,

    Well, then. You must live in Utopia.

    Yeah. Well, i guess i’m not hearing any examples, then.

    I can’t figure out if you’re being wilfully obtuse or if you really are that clueless. Go back and read Mike’s statements that I was responding to.

    Mike has nothing to do with the question what should feminism be concerned with.

    You must have mistaken this for a 101 blog. Maybe you should go find out the context before you wave your big finger of shame at us.

    I wasn’t asking you for instructions. I don’t think you are the source of knowledge about feminism. I was asking for your opinion/elaboration on what you said. But if you want to dodge, ok.

  371. Natalie
    Natalie July 6, 2012 at 9:19 am |

    Here is a hint. If I say “the c word” people know what I am talking about. Dick is never referred to as the d word

  372. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 6, 2012 at 9:48 am |

    Here is a hint. If I say “the c word” people know what I am talking about. Dick is never referred to as the d word

    Here’s an advice: don’t go passive-aggressive at other commenters. Simple exmplanation will do. Which i’d be still interested in hearing.

    Unless you’re saying that popularity of insult makes it more severe. Which is rather nonsensical (granted, recongizability helps, but i guess d*** is recognizable by pretty much everyone)

  373. pheenobarbidoll
    pheenobarbidoll July 6, 2012 at 10:11 am |

    Oh jesus.

    Tomek-

    When someone calls you a dick they mean you’re acting like jerk.

    When someone calls you the c word, they mean you’re a filthy fucking woman hole good for nothing but sticking dicks into. It’s worse than jerk.

    And you know it so drop the clueless act.

  374. ASH
    ASH July 6, 2012 at 10:18 am |

    “When someone calls you the c word, they mean you’re a filthy fucking woman hole good for nothing but sticking dicks into. It’s worse than jerk.”

    Hence, why calling a man a “pussy” or a “bitch” are the WORST thing you can call them….including “dick”.

  375. Natalie
    Natalie July 6, 2012 at 10:23 am |

    Maybe you just don’t understand swears but at this point I’m just getting annoyed. For fucks sake dick is something you can get away with saying in front of your grandmother, the c word is not.

  376. Mxe354
    Mxe354 July 6, 2012 at 11:41 am |

    All right, I understand now. It’s true that I’ve never heard “dick” being used as an insult to women (though perhaps it is and I just haven’t noticed it), but in any case, I’ve never heard it with a sexist connotation despite being a word that seems gendered at a glance. I mean, I’ve never heard a man being called a “dick” in a sexist way.

    Sometimes swear words are more confusing than they appear to be. At least to me.

  377. petpluto
    petpluto July 6, 2012 at 11:53 am |

    It’s true that I’ve never heard “dick” being used as an insult to women (though perhaps it is and I just haven’t noticed it),

    It’s used in Juno (when Juno’s stepmother yells at an ultrasound technician for judging Juno’s motherly qualities, Juno turns to her and says, “You’se a dick!”) but not really as an insult. In fact, I call my friends (guys and girls) dicks all the time to mean “jerk”, and sometimes to mean “jerky for a good reason”.

    When someone calls you the c word, they mean you’re a filthy fucking woman hole good for nothing but sticking dicks into. It’s worse than jerk.

    Exactly.

    If there is no understanding of disparate impact when examining things like gendered insults, then there is no true way to judge how language is problematic and which language is more problematic. And which groups are more harmed by this type of language.

    When you call a man a “dick”, you aren’t defining him by his genitalia. When you call a woman a “cunt”, you are. When you call a man a “pussy”, you’re defining him as female genitalia. That’s the difference.

  378. zuzu
    zuzu July 6, 2012 at 12:17 pm |

    I wasn’t asking you for instructions. I don’t think you are the source of knowledge about feminism. I was asking for your opinion/elaboration on what you said. But if you want to dodge, ok.

    I’m JAQ!

    Dude, do your own damn self-education. If I thought you were acting in good faith, I might engage your questions, but you’ve made it plain you don’t credit the idea that women are expected to fix things for men AND you don’t see any difference between the way that cunt and dick are used as insults. So I conclude that you’re trolling.

  379. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 6, 2012 at 4:47 pm |

    Pheeno,

    What i’m hearing from *c* is that you are a worthless, what i’m hearing from *d* is that you’re deplorable.

    Looking at it from that perspective, yes, i agree that *c* is worse, even though not by an order of magnitude. My gripe was mainly not with genderism of these insults (that was Mxe point), but their sex-negativity – and the fact feministe comm. reacts to one but uses another, based on gender.

    So, yes, *c* is worse. Does that make using a name of secondary sexual organ as an isult okay? I don’t think so.

    Natalie,

    Hence, why calling a man a “pussy” or a “bitch” are the WORST thing you can call them….including “dick”.

    And you probably think it’s because women are considered worse creatures. And my take is that is because masculine gender role are stricter, so implying that woman is masculine doesn’t carry as much load that implying that man is feminine.

    On a side note, try using “small d***” instead. Which, by the way, appeared in this thread.

    Hm, seems ASH had comment in moderation…

  380. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 6, 2012 at 5:47 pm |

    ASH,

    It happens all the time. There are men and women all the time that blame feminism for every “horrible” thing that has happened in society. If you are not hearing this or seeing this, I suggest that you pay a little bit more attention.

    “It” was feminism stopping fighting for women’s lib and worrying whether men are okay with it, not “men and women that blame feminism (…)”. Those people are not feminists.

    In case you think i’m nitpicking, i’d like to point we’re talking about what feminism should be and not what some reactionaries are doing or thinking.

    If you are implying that both women and men suffer under the Patriarchy, I will agree. If you’re trying to say that women and men suffer in equal parts under the same, I’d vehemently disagree.

    That (all sexes suffer under patriarchy. Btw, i don’t care much who has it the worst.*) also, but i meant more – that one can’t untangle feminine without touching masculine and vice versa. Hell, we can’t even understand homophobia or many other axes of oppression while disregarding gender, even though at first glance they might seem unrelated.

    OK. Let me get this straight. You think that when feminism puts the issues of women at the forefront over the issues pertaining exclusively to men, that it is the same as white feminists excluding the voice of say, black feminists?

    No, it simply is not.

    I think i meant something so completely different that i can’t even answer yes or no (for the record, i don’t see many similarities). I was thinking of the consequences of concentrating on in-group oppression and how that ends for the group in question. Namely, that it ends in cheauvinism, and transferring oppression, and embracing hierarchical way of thinking. For example, what happened to bisexuals within LGBT movement.

    It even happens when the group can’t effectively discriminate against these targets (say, blacks vs. whites), with counterproductive attempts of proving your superiority, which i’m most familiar from my own backyard (well, Poland got its share of martyr complex and resulting xenophobia and prejudice against neighbours and even other ethnicities in general).

    Oh, you can easily see it in MRAs. They are hopelessly fixated at blaming women for their plight, much more than feminism (well, perhaps except strands of radical f) was ever focused on blaming men for patriarchy.

    So i’m not sure how black vs. white feminism relates to this issue… i’m not talking about not seeing minority groups inside your own movement, so if that was the reason for the ignoring the differences, then no, but if it was because white feminists though black issues somehow detract from “general” feminist issues, then yes (all other differences nonwithstanding)

    No one is demonizing any group.

    Well, we could argue how feminism does portray men all year long, so let me say something else:

    I said I am not going to worry about fixing male problems in an attempt to “entice” misogynists to join the feminist cause because they never will.

    Neither do i. But i do think that these issues are interconnected and fixing one help fixing other. For example, by fixing issues with male upbringing you do a lot for resolving male violence, which includes violence against women, and by resolving issues about women gender roles you help men with their own gender straightjacket by, among others, example. That’s why i think it’s good to handle both at once, not because i think we should try to enlists or convert mysoginists. Not that converting mysoginists into decent humans is not a good goal, but that’s beside the point.

    At that point the question is whether to handle the masculine gender norms catastrophe alongside the feminism or beside it. Well, i’m a small fry, so i can only observe, and from what i can see it’s still undecided.

    Mike’s assertion was that if the feminist movement would just “fix” male problems, then he would join our group.

    (…)

    So, please explain, how is it fair for him to continue to be a misogynist in his “own best interest”, while we would be working on his behalf to make sure that his ex-wife and children get screwed if he decides he no longer wants to be married.

    Uh, Mike. Yes, the above is silly idea.

    I’m not Mike though. I’m not going to wait for feminism to fix parentage issues (whatever they might be, as i said i’m more interested in the child perspective. Way more), sure, i’d like feminism to embrace intersectionality more, in particular masculinity – because it’s sorely in need of deconstruction, and because it affects so much, not because i put men first.

    This isn’t feminism, and might never be, but i’d like it to be. Feminism, queer as a movement, greens, cthulhu cultists, i’ll take anything, really, at that point.

    *I’ll take a wild guess about average oppression quotient: intersex people, then queer transsexuals, then heteronormative ts, then ciswomen, then cismen. Or something like that. The split between transsexuals is due to certain peculiarities of the system my friends experienced (basically, that you got to pose as a person fitting very well into gender norm of the sex you want your body to be oped into, and hide any non-normative behaviour or thoughts on the penalty of being denied an operation. God i digress)

  381. pheenobarbidoll
    pheenobarbidoll July 6, 2012 at 6:48 pm |

    so implying that woman is masculine doesn’t carry as much load that implying that man is feminine.

    Masculine women receive rape threats and are often raped as punishment for not meeting feminine standards. Men get called names of female sexual organs.

    Which do you think carries more weight or applies more pressure?

  382. Mxe354
    Mxe354 July 6, 2012 at 10:59 pm |

    Masculine women receive rape threats and are often raped as punishment for not meeting feminine standards.

    On a slightly unrelated note, that phenomenon fits within patriarchal norms as well. Feminine men are denounced for not having self-respect because it’s insulting for men to be feminine; after all, the female sex is seen as inherently inferior. Masculine women, however, are denounced as trying to gain power (for lack of a better word). The response to such “threats” is to put them in their place through sexual assault and so on.

    What a horrific world we live in. And to think some MRAs actually have the nerve to argue that patriarchy is an ideal system… Assholes.

  383. DonnaL
    DonnaL July 6, 2012 at 11:05 pm |

    I’ll take a wild guess about average oppression quotient: intersex people, then queer transsexuals, then heteronormative ts, then ciswomen, then cismen. Or something like that. The split between transsexuals is due to certain peculiarities of the system my friends experienced (basically, that you got to pose as a person fitting very well into gender norm of the sex you want your body to be oped into, and hide any non-normative behaviour or thoughts on the penalty of being denied an operation. God i digress)

    What? I really wish you wouldn’t do this kind of thing.

  384. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 7, 2012 at 3:19 am |

    Masculine women receive rape threats and are often raped as punishment for not meeting feminine standards. Men get called names of female sexual organs.

    Which do you think carries more weight or applies more pressure?

    Well, i think you’re blind, but that’s beside the point. If you want actual response, how about that:

    Feminine men are beaten or murdered for not meeting masculine standarts. What carries more weight or applies more pressure?

  385. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 7, 2012 at 3:20 am |

    Donna,

    What? I really wish you wouldn’t do this kind of thing.

    What kind of thing and why?

  386. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 7, 2012 at 3:39 am |

    Dude, do your own damn self-education. If I thought you were acting in good faith, I might engage your questions, but you’ve made it plain you don’t credit the idea that women are expected to fix things for men.

    Apparently it’s too hard for you to come up with an example of this widespread phenomen. Not really surprising.

  387. EG
    EG July 7, 2012 at 6:50 am |

    The bizarre ranking of oppressions, as though human experience is on some kind of weird linear scale. Because there’s not much evidence that such ranking is either accurate or helpful.

  388. thinksnake
    thinksnake July 7, 2012 at 8:42 am |

    And if you’re going to attempt an Oppression Olympics, it would help if you didn’t ust plain ignore those of us who don’t fit into the gender binary.

  389. DonnaL
    DonnaL July 7, 2012 at 12:09 pm |

    EG and Thinksnake have the right idea.

    Plus, I find the whole idea of non-trans people attempting any kind of classification or ranking of trans people, even with good intentions, to be a little creepy. It’s that whole anthropological, exoticizing approach — let’s examine this interesting “tribe” of people.

    Plus, using the word “transsexual” as a noun kind of makes me wince. Again, it’s very exoticising, and sounds like something out of the 1950’s or 1960’s — “and now we present America’s favorite glamorous transsexual, Christine Jorgensen!” — or something out of pornography (as is “TS”), as if it’s the entirety of someone’s being, and something entirely other than “woman.” In most discussions, people I know just use “trans,” and if they do identify as being transsexual (as I do, although I don’t use the term much for a number of reasons), they use the word as an adjective, as in “transsexual woman,” or, if you want to get really fine about it, “woman of transsexual history.”

    Plus, as both EG and thinksnake point out, it’s incredibly simplistic and linear. Not only does it leave out a lot of people, entire groups and subgroups alike (including trans men!), but it completely ignores intersectionality, as well as the fact that there are all sorts of different kinds and axes of oppression that operate on different trans people in different ways. Young, heterosexual trans women who blend in and are perceived as being cis women may be high up in the so-called internal trans hierarchy (in terms of the degree of envy they inspire!), whether or not they’ve had genital surgery, but they’re also probably the most likely to be accused of being “deceivers,” and to be the victims of physical violence and murder if they’re “discovered” — also, of course, depending on race and class.

    There’s so much variation among intersex people that I don’t see how you can generalize, and a lot of them would object to being put anywhere on the same scale with trans people in the first place. On the other hand, there are intersex people who also identify as trans, to the extent they “transition.”

    Genderqueer people aren’t the same thing as “queer transsexuals,” and a lot of them don’t consider themselves trans in the first place. I also don’t even know what you mean by “queer transsexuals,” unless you’re talking about sexual orientation rather than gender identity.

    Genderqueer people may think in general that binary trans people have privilege over them. But there are many ways and many settings (including some academic environments and “queer” environments in general) in which binary trans people have historically been the object of unrelenting scorn and condescension and accusations of “reifying the gender binary” and being inauthentic, and so on, and they’re far more likely in general to be victimized by transphobia on the part of certain other LGBT people, and some feminists, than genderqueer people.

    And so on, ad infinitum.

    So, yes, simplistic, inaccurate, exoticizing, and inappropriate in general. All of which is covered by my original comment, I think!

  390. DonnaL
    DonnaL July 7, 2012 at 12:10 pm |

    My response to Tomek’s question is in moderation.

  391. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 7, 2012 at 3:03 pm |

    The bizarre ranking of oppressions, as though human experience is on some kind of weird linear scale. Because there’s not much evidence that such ranking is either accurate or helpful.

    And if you’re going to attempt an Oppression Olympics, it would help if you didn’t ust plain ignore those of us who don’t fit into the gender binary.

    I said i don’t care about OO. If you want to know why i added that particular paragraph, read to what i responded.

    In short, i was directly responding to someone (ASH) who was happy to play oppression olympics right there under your noses, but you obviously fucking didn’t even notice it, only to happily jump at my example. And the reason why this happened is fucking obvious.

    So, cry my a fucking river.

  392. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 7, 2012 at 3:18 pm |

    Ok, it’s probably not so obvious so i’ll try to elaborate.

    The theme of oppression olympics=bad applies only to people that arguably have it worse than women. It does not apply when you want to compare women to

    groups (ie: men) that have it better, because it is safe – it means free continuation of focusing on women issues and still claiming to be good

    progressive, and continuation of perceiving gender/sex as a class. But, when it comes to group that have it worse (and yes, the groups i listed DO have it worse, on average, in your country), no, suddenly it’s bad to even ponder about that, because… well, because it’s bad.

    More precisely, because saying so would be detrimental to the narrative of women being THE oppressed class. But that would be rather unpolitical to say

    it openly, so we get to hear that bullshit fake answer.

    (to be precise, OO have other reasons that could make them detrimental, but these reasons are only potential)

  393. DonnaL
    DonnaL July 7, 2012 at 4:44 pm |

    Tomek, regardless of your explanation, I still have major issues with what you said, and my comment on the subject is now out of moderation at # 408. I understand that you’re not anti-trans and that your intentions were good, but it was still problematic. In the non-jokey sense.

  394. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune July 7, 2012 at 5:13 pm |

    I’ll take a wild guess about average oppression quotient: intersex people, then queer transsexuals, then heteronormative ts, then ciswomen, then cismen.

    Whuuuuuuu? Tomek, genderqueer people aren’t oppressed anywhere near as much as trans people. And they sure as fuck deal with less “abnormal” rhetoric than intersex people do.

  395. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 7, 2012 at 5:19 pm |

    Donna, i’ve noticed your comment, and i’m currently reading and thinking about it. I’m not sure if i’ll be able to write back today (it’s just past midnight here), but for a quick reply – thank you for the elaboration, i think i understand what you’re saying in the first part (the language issue), and i get it, and i apologize.

    Haven’t digested the second part yet.

  396. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 7, 2012 at 5:24 pm |
    Whuuuuuuu? Tomek, genderqueer people aren’t oppressed anywhere near as much as trans people. And they sure as fuck deal with less “abnormal” rhetoric than intersex people do.

    Before i get back to reading Donna comment – i didn’t meant genderqueer. I meant trans people that were not heteronormative, and i was speaking strictly from Polish (and anecdotal at that) perspective – for example, trans people that are not heterosexual are denied transition by medical establishment (state-funded healthcare, remember) and more, and that’s really FUBAR.

  397. DonnaL
    DonnaL July 7, 2012 at 5:32 pm |

    trans people that are not heterosexual are denied transition by medical establishment (state-funded healthcare, remember) and more, and that’s really FUBAR.

    I agree with you, and I’m sorry to learn that there are places where that’s still true.

    It used to be true in the USA many years ago. Trans women who liked women had to pretend that they were attracted to men in order to be prescribed hormones, given permission to have surgery, and so on.

    Because we don’t want to create any more lesbians, amirite? Only “normal” women!

  398. cherrybomb
    cherrybomb July 7, 2012 at 9:29 pm |

    Uh, I’m all for creating more lesbians! Bring on the lesbians!

    (this note has been brought to you by cherrybomb’s boner)

  399. macavitykitsune
    macavitykitsune July 7, 2012 at 10:23 pm |

    trans people that are not heterosexual are denied transition by medical establishment (state-funded healthcare, remember) and more, and that’s really FUBAR.

    Oh, I get what you’re saying now! And that’s just….fucked up and oppressive and just ewwwwww.

    Uh, I’m all for creating more lesbians! Bring on the lesbians!

    Lol I know, right?

  400. Mxe354
    Mxe354 July 7, 2012 at 10:36 pm |

    Donna L’s comment (#408) deserves several rounds of applause.

  401. thinksnake
    thinksnake July 7, 2012 at 11:01 pm |

    Whuuuuuuu? Tomek, genderqueer people aren’t oppressed anywhere near as much as trans people. And they sure as fuck deal with less “abnormal” rhetoric than intersex people do.

    I know it’s fun to argue with oppression olympics, but don’t do it by creating one of your own. Us genderqueers cover a really broad range. Many of us are also trans and/or genderqueer. And yeah, I do deal with a lot of ‘abnormal’ talk too.

  402. DonnaL
    DonnaL July 7, 2012 at 11:28 pm |

    yes, thinksnake, I should have pointed out that I’ve known a number of non-binary trans people who also think of themselves as genderqueer, and vice versa. I think LotusBecca said at one point that she identifies as both. The terms certainly aren’t mutually exclusive.

    As I said, this is all way too complicated for any kind of linear “hierarchy of oppression” to make any sense at all.

  403. thinksnake
    thinksnake July 8, 2012 at 1:20 am |

    … and me saying that genderqueer people can also be genderqueer was meant to be that genderqueer people can also be intersex. That was my bad, typing in irkdom and not checking.

  404. Andie
    Andie July 8, 2012 at 9:15 am |

    Grr.. This post and thread reminds me of a conversation with my ex-husband where I told him it was unfair that we both worked full-time but I did all the housework. He totally didn’t see the problem with it, especially because it was how his brother and his wife did things.

    I did mention he is my EX-husband, right?

  405. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 8, 2012 at 1:08 pm |

    Donna,

    I have mixed feelings about generalizations and categorizations.

    On one hand, it’s true that the guise of science was used – and still is – to stigmatize non-harmful behaviour or bodies that were non-normative. I’m less used to anthropology doing that, but i am used to history doing the same, and history is only slightly different from anthropology, so…

    On the other hand, i value both anthropology and sociology because i think those sciences can teach us a lot about how human cultures differ, why, how societies function, and the intricaties of institutions (in soc. sense). I should say that i might be biased here, since i spent many years studying at the faculty of sociology .

    On another hand, i agree that generalizations simplify things and fail to grasp intersectionality in particular (as in your intra-trans hierarchy example), and that they are not only useless but counterproductive to indepth understanding of an issue.

    On yet another hand (yes, i am quadruped alien), generalizations used to grasp large groups situation can tell us interesting things about the situation in width as long as we remember that often an particular individual can lack basically all attributes of the group we include them into. (oh, and by the way – my comment was nothing like good analysis – it was, literally “wild guess blahblahblah or something” aimed at showing that the reality isn’t about – binary gender war)

    That’s what i think about the issue you wrote about in the second part of your comment. My gripe is actually not that intersectionality is accepted here, but the opposite – that people stop being able to perceive it when the group in question is cismen and they get thought of as an uniform oppressor class.

    I’ve got a question, though. You said you you use that term – as i understood you don’t use the term >transsexual< in any way, not only as a noun – for yourself, despite that you identify as such. Why?

    On another note not really related note, i have personal trouble with using the term transgender. Yes, it reifies the binary, but in my case it's personal. I was androgynous since i remember, was happy that i was and generally pursued it and saw androgynity everywhere (to the extent that after reading infamous "brain sex" as a teenager i concluded that the book was about how the sexes are very similar). So when i hear 'transgender' i wince because for a split second i'm trying to understand where is that 'trans' area one is supposed to cross into, as it doesn't make sense if one doesn't perceive masculinity and femininity as opposites. But i know people do feel strongly about their gender/sex and from their perspective it makes sense.

    Same with cisgender, does cisgender mean being okay with your body exclusively (so that you would be unhappy in other body), or being okay with your body, but also not against a change. So the whole concept is very counterintuitive for me.

    Oh, and i'm also confused by your last sentence.

    All of which is covered by my original comment, I think!

    Which comment?

    Oh, and on final note – i think it’s clear now, but anyway – i used the queer in the sense i am most familiar with: adjective that signifies non-heteronormativity. And yes, thinksnake, genderqueer is probably the widest category that i can think of since it covers EVERYTHING except the very strict set of behaviour.

  406. Tomek Kulesza
    Tomek Kulesza July 8, 2012 at 1:09 pm |

    Hm, i must have broken the unmodded comment character limit in my reply to Donna…

  407. DonnaL
    DonnaL July 8, 2012 at 1:40 pm |

    I will look for your comment when it comes out of moderation, Tomek.

  408. Mike
    Mike July 14, 2012 at 7:47 am |

    When the feminists are done with the oppression of women, we’ll get around to making male issues our top priority, but until then, I am pretty sure that if men do not like inequality that they see happening, they are are more than capable of working on it themselves.

    Well if feminists do not want to help men and therefore give men no incentives to become feminists themselves, they could at least stop opposing mens rights activists, or fathers for rights groups, or at least call out self labeled feminist groups like the national organization of women who do so.

    I am getting the feeling that many feminists still do not see men not being on board with feminism as a problem with one of the guys on here making “nobody was looking to recruit you and we would be happy if you just vanish”.

    How many men can vanish from feminism or not join up to begin with, before it hurts feminist goals?

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