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197 Responses

  1. Barnacle Strumpet
    Barnacle Strumpet September 4, 2013 at 11:19 am |

    [Moderator note: further replies to this comment belong in #spillover, due to the derail in comments below]

    My friend complains that nobody wants to go out with him because he’s too nice

    Nice Guys™ act nice because they believe if they’re nice to women, then women are obligated to be interested in them.

    One of these things is not like the other…

    Saying “No one wants to date me because of my /trait/:” is not the same as saying “people are obligated to be interested in me because of my /trait/”

    Really, I am so sick of this “Nice Guy” crap. It’s right up there with that stupid fucking spoons story in the category of overrated crap terms that some people wet themselves at the chance to use.

    Nothing about the advice question warranted any of that long blahblah about Nice Guys. Questioner was most likely wanting their guilt assuaged for thinking their friend was coming off as a desperate loser.

    My advice: pick a subject that hasn’t been done to death (and in this case, was eye-roll-worthy to begin with) for the episodes.

    1. Revolver
      Revolver September 4, 2013 at 11:28 am |

      It’s right up there with that stupid fucking spoons story in the category of overrated crap terms that some people wet themselves at the chance to use.

      Wow. That’s really dismissive of people like me who have invisible health/energy issues. That “stupid fucking spoons story” is a remarkably helpful way to describe what we go through and is a completely valid way to say, “I don’t have the energy for this right now” in a way that explains to non-energy-issue-havers just what we deal with.

      1. Revolver
        Revolver September 4, 2013 at 11:30 am |

        I also meant to add that the video topic is completely on point. Guys who complain about girls always dating the bad boys or putting them in the “friendzone” because they’re too nice are often just one OkCupid rejection away from melting down into misogynist mode. So it’s not a huge leap to go from the question to Nice Guy explanation.

    2. macavitykitsune
      macavitykitsune September 4, 2013 at 11:33 am |

      Saying “No one wants to date me because of my /trait/:” is not the same as saying “people are obligated to be interested in me because of my /trait/”

      No…? I always thought “No one wants to date me because of my /trait/” when /trait/ was one generally perceived as positive was always a synonym of “but I’m /trait/, why won’t people date me?”

      As for done to death, I dunno about you, but aside from me, no women in my college gender studies class knew jack about any of the things mentioned above. And that’s a better-educated sample when it comes to feminism etc than some jock in the trades department who doesn’t need to take humanities requirements, for example.

      1. macavitykitsune
        macavitykitsune September 4, 2013 at 11:36 am |

        And btw I don’t know if you’ve got invisible/chronic disabilities, but if you don’t, that was some pretty ableist shit right there. Sorry my use of a concept that accurately explains most of my relationship with the world bores and annoys you, I guess.

      2. Barnacle Strumpet
        Barnacle Strumpet September 4, 2013 at 11:51 am |

        [Moderator note: further replies to this comment belong in #spillover, due to the derail in comments below]

        If they haven’t heard of Nice Guys (TM) (which I have been for like, the last 10 years) it’s probably because they aren’t a thing.

        I have yet to ever encounter a Nice Guy, or even hear of anyone irl encountering one.

        Probably because most women say “I want to meet a guy who’s funny/smart/sexy/tall”. Not nice. Why anyone would emulate a trait that few women are actually interested in, to pick up women, is beyond me. And probably why very few men do. (Not being a raging douchecanoe is a given usually for people wanting to date you, but I don’t think it’s ever been enough for anyone in itself. Never heard a woman say, “Man, look at the guy not being an asshole! That makes him so sexy and exceptional!)

        And yes, I do have invisible disabilities, and yes, that spoons story is still fucking bizarre and useless to me. It’s also, IMO, cutesy and condescending and fails to explain anything whatsoever about my experiences.

        1. pheenobarbidoll
          pheenobarbidoll September 4, 2013 at 12:00 pm |

          I’ve yet to see Chicago. Guess it doesn’t exist.

        2. Jill
          Jill September 4, 2013 at 12:01 pm | *

          Well, if it doesn’t speak to your specific experience then obviously it is stupid and useless!

        3. macavitykitsune
          macavitykitsune September 4, 2013 at 12:08 pm |

          Hi. I’ve heard of Nice Guys. I’ve been friends with Nice Guys. Never been the target of one, thank fuck, but I’ve seen at least three target Val in the time I’ve been married to her(!).

          Also, who died and made you president of how everyone should feel about invisible disabilities? If it doesn’t work for you, don’t use it. Don’t crap all over people it does work for in the process.

        4. macavitykitsune
          macavitykitsune September 4, 2013 at 12:45 pm |

          @pheeno hell, I’ve seen Chicago and I still don’t believe it exists.

        5. Lolagirl
          Lolagirl September 4, 2013 at 1:39 pm |

          Well this Chicagoan can reassure that Chicago does, in fact, exist.

          Also, at least here in flyover country, the closest I’ve seen to the Nice Guy narrative has been among somewhat stereotypically dorky/nerdy/socially awkward techie types who can barely maintain a conversation with their dog. Thus, their ability to woo the womenz is startlingly lacking.

          I’ve heard about these Nice Guys (TM) who are actually assholes who feel entitled to six from the object of their attraction solely on the internets. All anecdotal, admittedly, but the assholes I’ve known irl who felt entitled to sex from others were just openly assholish. No pretext at Nice Guyism even attempted.

          Clearly others MMV.

        6. Bagelsan
          Bagelsan September 4, 2013 at 2:49 pm |

          Barnacle, has it occurred to you that you’re essentially a troll? Maybe even Nice Guys don’t want to fuck you because you’re kind of an ass, but unfortunately it’s not the case for everyone that they’re personally repellent, and some of us do get people attracted to us that we don’t like. The concept of women being targeted by douches is relevant to people besides your precious self, as it happens, and if you don’t like that you’re welcome to stop derailing.

        7. ipens
          ipens September 4, 2013 at 3:44 pm |

          Tied to a string of comments about how these are often the nerdy, dorky guys, this is a hilarious typo. There probably are a lot fo assholes who feel entitled to Six.*

          *See further, Battlestar Galactica.

        8. ipens
          ipens September 4, 2013 at 3:45 pm |

          Comment fail. Said Six comment was supposed to be quoting Lolagirl, who said: I’ve heard about these Nice Guys (TM) who are actually assholes who feel entitled to six…

        9. Karak
          Karak September 4, 2013 at 3:53 pm |

          I’ve been the target of several “nice guys”. They exist.

          And we’ll we’ve talked rape to death so I guess it’s no longer an issue women face or part of a destructive pattern of patriarchy. Every 18 year old college freshman girl has spent the last 10 years reading feminist blogs and discussing various forms of feminist theory and TOTALLY knows how to handle a guy that uses social politeness as a tool of manipulation.

          And, ironically, a friend of mine just posted the spoon thing on her Facebook and was talking about what a difference it made to her in thinking, managing, and talking about her fibro.

          Seriously did your cat just die or something? Because you really came out the gate raging.

        10. Dante
          Dante September 4, 2013 at 7:33 pm |

          Can I ask someone to explain the “stupid fucking spoons story”? Because I haven’t heard it, and if some people think it’s a useful way to explain invisible disabilities, I think it might useful to me and I would like to know it.

        11. tigtog
          tigtog September 4, 2013 at 7:46 pm | *

          Here’s the canonical essay on Spoon Theory, and here’s my co-blogger Lauredhel venting about TABs appropriating the term. That should cover most of the bases for you!

        12. tigtog
          tigtog September 4, 2013 at 7:47 pm | *

          P.S. further discussion on Spoon Theory belongs on #spillover, just because it’s off-topic on a post talking about Nice Guys™.

        13. Dante
          Dante September 4, 2013 at 8:32 pm |

          Thank you, very much!

        14. Sammi
          Sammi September 4, 2013 at 11:08 pm |

          Well, just like the others have said on here. Apparently if it happens personally to YOU well then that means it happens to everyone! So just because you personally know some women who don’t ever talk about liking “nice men” you think ALL women are like that? Once again the idea that women are a monolith has to come up. *sigh* And for all you know, those women probably DO like men who are “nice”, they just have other preferences they like, such as being tall or smart and the other things that were mentioned.

          And while we are on the subject of that, you say, “women say they like funny/smart/sexy/tall men but not nice men”. Well we could also generalize and say men want nice/smart/sexy/tall women but never funny women. Now why is THAT? (of course there are lot’s of men who prefer funny women, but I’m just making the point that we could also generalize about that, since many of the men I have come in contact with have never said anything about liking funny women.)

        15. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
          The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 3:44 am |

          ARGH apologies, tigtog, hadn’t seen we were supposed to take this to spillover when I posted.

        16. tigtog
          tigtog September 8, 2013 at 4:53 am | *

          I’ve deleted your comment now Kitteh, just to keep things tidy. Thanks.

        17. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
          The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 3:47 am |

          @mac:

          @pheeno hell, I’ve seen Chicago and I still don’t believe it exists.

          Of course Chicago exists, Fraser and Diefenbaker and Vecchio hang out there!

          /Due South fan

        18. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
          The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 5:23 am |

          Thanks for deleting my spoon post, tigtog!

          ::thinks: refresh is your friend, refresh is your friend::

      3. amblingalong
        amblingalong September 4, 2013 at 12:07 pm |

        I also think a lot of people just find ‘nice’ bland and dull, and prefer exciting, cocky, challenging, sarcastic, etc. etc. I sure do, in my partners.

        So my response to the Nice Guy thing is slightly different. The problem isn’t just that “Nice Guys” aren’t really nice, but that women aren’t obligated to find niceness attractive, because it’s not an objectively attractive trait.

        1. Barnacle Strumpet
          Barnacle Strumpet September 4, 2013 at 12:15 pm |

          MTE, pretty much. I don’t think it’s, as mac said, a generally perceived as positive trait, at least not in the U.S, and even less so among men, who are often raised in a way that nurtures aggressiveness and independence.

          Hence the whole “nice guys finish last” “women want tough guys” etc.

          I don’t want a nice guy. A lot of women don’t. So I don’t think it can be all that common of a tactic for men getting women to date them. I have to wonder if this “Nice Guy” stuff only occurs within a certain class or a geographic status.

        2. Lolagirl
          Lolagirl September 4, 2013 at 1:52 pm |

          A quick search of the Google finds nice defined as pleasant in manner, good natured, and kind. Wow, worst possible characteristics in another human being imaginable!

          I so don’t get this narrative of the Ladies don’t like niceness. Perhaps this does just break down to regional differences, or maybe I’m just a bumpkin from Nowheresville, Indiana (kinda.). But I actively seek out genuine niceness in my romantical partners. Oh, and my friends as well. Cocky and challenging? Not so much. Maybe for occasional hanging out, but definitely not for sexy times. Cocky and challenging wrt to sex never pans out in a promising way in my experience.

          Guess I’m just weird that way…

        3. macavitykitsune
          macavitykitsune September 4, 2013 at 4:32 pm |

          Yes, well, it’s amazing how I’ve managed to surround myself with challenging, sarcastic, cocky, funny people who don’t act like some sort of sprinkler system for background asshattery and assorted isms, just by avoiding making friends with people who aren’t nice to other people. But maybe that’s just me, and I’m sure the fact that I have a partner who’s sarcastic and funny and still nice is sheer coincidence.

        4. amblingalong
          amblingalong September 4, 2013 at 5:42 pm |

          Yes, well, it’s amazing how I’ve managed to surround myself with challenging, sarcastic, cocky, funny people who don’t act like some sort of sprinkler system for background asshattery and assorted isms, just by avoiding making friends with people who aren’t nice to other people. But maybe that’s just me, and I’m sure the fact that I have a partner who’s sarcastic and funny and still nice is sheer coincidence.

          waitwaitwait.

          Kindness is important to me. Empathy and compassion are important to me. My point is that ‘niceness’ in and of isn’t a) inherently sexually attractive and b) if that’s your primary personality trait, I personally find that dull. As a result, the problem goes beyond ‘women don’t like nice guys,’ is existentialist and sexist; even if specific women don’t like nice guys, there’s nothing wrong/abnormal/gender-specific/immoral about that preference.

          Please don’t read my post to suggest I enjoy dating sociopaths.

        5. Jenna
          Jenna September 4, 2013 at 5:55 pm |

          Nice isn’t so much “bland and dull” as it is the most basic requirement, sort of like “alive”. I won’t put up with jerks, but, just being “not a jerk” isn’t really enough to turn me on, right? One of the reasons that a restaurant meal is a good place to evaluate a prospective partner is that you get to see how they treat the waitstaff. I want to see how the person treats those that they perceive as having little power. I want to see how they treat their exes or how they talk about them. This is the most basic deal breaker, but, it isn’t exciting.

        6. PrettyAmiable
          PrettyAmiable September 4, 2013 at 5:57 pm |

          Dittoing mac. All the folks I’ve dated have found that using sarcasm (and being cocky, for that matter) and being stand-up people are not mutually exclusive.

        7. amblingalong
          amblingalong September 4, 2013 at 6:06 pm |

          Nice isn’t so much “bland and dull” as it is the most basic requirement, sort of like “alive”.

          Exactly. So if someone describes themselves as ‘an alive guy,’ or the first thing other people have to say about them is ‘well, he’s…alive?’, chances are good they’re boring as fuck.

          I am NOT going on an anti-nice jeremiad. I’m saying that not only is the ‘women don’t like nice guys’ thing an essentialist, sexist generalization, chances are good that the women who don’t like guys who, before anything else, are described as ‘nice’ are perfectly justified in feeling that way.

          arghblargh

        8. Andie
          Andie September 4, 2013 at 8:25 pm |

          I don’t recall where I heard it, it may have been someone here but it was something along the lines of “someone saying ‘you should date me because I’m nice’ is like saying ‘you should buy my car because it has wheels’.

          Niceness should be a given, not a selling point.

          I’ve dated nice guys and Nice Guys™ alike. If I broke up with them, it wasn’t because they were nice.. It was because niceness was the ONLY thing they had going for them.

        9. catfood
          catfood September 4, 2013 at 8:44 pm |

          You know what though? And I am continually appalled by this?

          [Going to talk in heteronormative, cisnormative terms for a second.]

          I keep finding out women are so used to bullshit treatment from men they care about that… yes, basic courtesy and not being too much of a patriarchal asshole are considered outstanding traits in men.

          It shouldn’t be something we consider a high standard. But appallingly often, it’s enough to put a guy way ahead. Oh, like what I just got in my email: “It sounds like neither the fact that I am [intense graduate-school thing] nor that I consider myself a feminist would be seen as adverse qualities to you.”

          So, she, uh, this woman is used to having those considered “adverse qualities”? Holy shit. Yeah, the baseline for not being a patriarchal jerk is really low.

        10. pheenobarbidoll
          pheenobarbidoll September 4, 2013 at 8:51 pm |

          The problem isn’t that they’re nice or even nice as a trait. When they say nice, they mean “don’t treat girls/women like dirt”. They use nice as a juxtaposition to jerky guy who treats girls like shit. So the idiots are saying ” girls/women don’t like me because I treat them well”. Treating women well makes you a decent human being, but does not always make you dateable to every woman on the planet. And they would not notice (for example) that the cheerleaders only have eyes for “jerky” jocks if they themselves didn’t only have eyes for cheerleaders. So they’re jerky hypocrites to boot. And that’s not nice.

        11. Computer Soldier Porygon
          Computer Soldier Porygon September 5, 2013 at 1:58 pm |

          Oh yeah, it’s like… double meaning status. I describe my boyfriend as “nice” because he is very nice and his kindness and generosity are my favorite things about him. But “nice” is also used euphemistically to mean bland/dull/boring.

        12. Bagelsan
          Bagelsan September 5, 2013 at 11:25 pm |

          I think that if the only thing you have to say about someone is that they’re “nice” it’s very much “damning them with faint praise.” I think a lot of people have had that moment where they have to say something good about someone they don’t know — it’s the yearbook phenomenon of saying something totally generic but not actually bad. “Nice” is like “have a good summer” and implies about that level of interest. :p

        13. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
          The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 3:59 am |

          Nice isn’t objectively attractive?

          But aren’t most traits subjectively attractive or not anyway? What’s objective about it? You mention cocky, for instance, among traits you like; I loathe cockiness.

          Nice isn’t negative to me; it does not imply blandness, dullness, lack of wit or anything else. For me it implies kindness, and that’s HUGELY important. Nor does it rule out traits like wit or, yes, sarcasm. It’s more an underlying thing.

          But it does come down to what these NiceGuys(TM) – the full name is important – are: they are not nice. They’re entitled. As a group, they’re whiners who expect sex for the kindness coins they’re putting into the womanthing sex machine, and some of them graduate to full-on stalkers.

        14. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
          The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 4:02 am |

          Drat, html fail. The italics were just mean to be for “not nice.”

    3. tigtog
      tigtog September 4, 2013 at 5:15 pm | *

      Barnacle, you are developing a tendency to stomp in early (often first comment) on a post and essentially say that the whole thing is a waste of your time.

      This is offputting to other readers who don’t think the post is a waste of their time, because instead of discussing the issues raised in the post they feel they have to defend the post against your contempt, and thus are far less likely to post, and this ends up meaning that the blog as a whole ends up missing out on a discussion that in most cases a substantial subset of the readership IS interested in. That’s very disrespectful to other readers and to the authors to essentially derail substantive discussion right from the start.

      In future, if a post makes you stompy and there aren’t already at least 5 comments on it*, restrain yourself from venting your stompiness on the thread. Please just post something like “this post is making me stompy, and I’m going to vent about it on #spillover” and then go and do that.

      *exceptions obviously for any post you feel has committed Ally Fail of any sort, but if the concept/problem is one that you just don’t feel speaks to you, then Don’t Make That One Of The First Comments On The Thread.

      1. Barnacle Strumpet
        Barnacle Strumpet September 4, 2013 at 7:50 pm |

        I’m sorry. To be honest, my first instinct on these kinds of posts is just to roll my eyes and move on, but I decided to start posting my thoughts, even if negative or a critique, because of the complaints that certain kinds of posts weren’t getting commented on (not that this is that kind of post mentioned; although I have seen video-link posts go abandoned quite a few times) it seemed unfair to me to limit that unburdening of my thoughts to only those posts.

        But I can cease doing that if it’s unhelpful. Or try to use a more polite tone, since I suspect if I had restructured my comment to be less flippant I wouldn’t be being warned (not that I have a problem with that being required; I am not one of the people that think’s tone is irrelevant)

        I didn’t think my complaints were baseless. I find it enormously condescending when people label people’s motives and feelings with no evidence for feeling the labelled way (i.e the male friend in the post never expressed the idea that he was entitled to sex or dates, so why is he being labelled a Nice Guy? see: Donna’s comments about men’s complaints, which are mostly what I’ve seen as well. Not every “women only like sensitive/bad/rich guys” is an expression of an entitlement to sex).

        My critique on that still stands; if a guy doesn’t feel entitled to sex for being nice, then he’s not a Nice Guy. And the term is being overused and misapplied, which is one thing a 101 post on the subject shouldn’t be doing, especially if the readers to it are likely to be new to the idea and not able to realize it’s being misapplied.

        1. tigtog
          tigtog September 4, 2013 at 8:05 pm | *

          I wouldn’t describe your initial response as flippant, I would describe it as dismissive and contemptuous, borderline-flamebait trolling (and others described it as trolling too). Especially the gratuitous dismissal of Spoon Theory, which was totally off-topic and (what a surprise!) led to a derail.

          If you’d written more along the lines of what you’ve written just above I doubt anyone would have perceived your objections as trolling at all.

          By all means voice your objections/complaints, but exercise some restraint when you’re feeling stompy and eye-rolly. Compose your comment in a separate text editor rather than in the reply box on the blog, go get a snack or drink, and then come back and see if you still want to post that comment. I do this often, and highly recommend it.

        2. pheenobarbidoll
          pheenobarbidoll September 4, 2013 at 8:33 pm |

          The ” I’m too nice” comment carries an implication of ” unlike assholes women like to date” so let’s drop the pretense of not grokking that and cut it the hell out with the plausible deniability defense, k? No one is misapplying it and it’s not over used, the situation it defines happens constantly. Since your past the 101 stuff then you should know we don’t mean guys who aren’t being nice to manipulate for sex and since we aren’t talking about those guys, stop forcing them into the conversation. Frankly barnacle you have in fact displayed a need for 101 threads. You’ve certainly mastered How To Derail 101′

        3. Barnacle Strumpet
          Barnacle Strumpet September 4, 2013 at 10:59 pm |

          The ” I’m too nice” comment carries an implication of ” unlike assholes women like to date”

          What’s your point, pheeno? That still doesn’t mean they think they’re entitled to sex from a certain person. There are all kinds of variations on it. “guys don’t want to date smart women” is one I’ve heard often enough. I certainly don’t assume that any woman saying it thinks she’s entitled to sex for being smart.

          Like Donna said, it’s often an expression of bitterness or even just temporary frustration with the disappointments of one’s love life.

          Bullshit it’s me “forcing these guys into the conversation” or “these aren’t the guys we’re talking about”. All the information we have about the man we’re talking about the term being (mis)applied to is quoted up above in the post. It says nothing about the man feeling entitled to sex or manipulating women into sex.

          Your opinion does not equal fact. Why you’re so set on turning the occasional indulgence in self-pity to one’s friends into Always Being a Nice Guy is beyond me.

        4. tigtog
          tigtog September 4, 2013 at 11:38 pm | *

          That still doesn’t mean they think they’re entitled to sex from a certain person.

          Nice Guys™ don’t only/always think they’re entitled to sexual acts, Barnacle. IME they do feel entitled to be viewed as sexually attractive, and resent the idea that the women they find desirable don’t reciprocate.

        5. pheenobarbidoll
          pheenobarbidoll September 4, 2013 at 11:29 pm |

          Sure barnacle. Take sex out. It’s STILL griping that he’s too nice for women to get involved past friendship. In other words, nice is the magic coin to a relationship slot machine. You’ve made it pretty clear you think the whole thing isn’t real, so your claims of it being misapplied are transparent. YOU have never witnessed such a thing so what the fuck do you even know about it? How about listening to those of us with actual experience. For a change.

        6. macavitykitsune
          macavitykitsune September 4, 2013 at 11:41 pm |

          Oh my fucking god, Barnacle, would you mind listening to people when they say a thing exists and they’ve personally experienced it? I’ve never experienced being neutrois, and I somehow manage to accept that it’s a thing in the world.

        7. tigtog
          tigtog September 4, 2013 at 11:58 pm | *

          Barnacle, take any further disagreements about this to #spillover please. This thread is not all about you.

    4. tigtog
      tigtog September 4, 2013 at 5:23 pm | *

      Also this:

      My advice: pick a subject that hasn’t been done to death … for the episodes.

      There will always be a need for someone to be doing 101, because there’s always more newbie eyeballs arriving in new-to-them ways of thinking about the world, and on Feministe that is especially true because when Lauren chose the punny name for her little blog back in 2001 she didn’t realise that it would end up always being a top result in search engines for anyone searching on “feminism”.

      I personally don’t give a flying fuck how many eyerolls the 101 posts give you. Because we know how many readers arrive every day at this blog due to a search engine result, we are always going to encourage authors to write 101 posts here. No matter how often you complain, that is not going to change, so deal.

      1. Jenna
        Jenna September 4, 2013 at 5:47 pm |

        101 information is essential, and I think it’s great that people are stepping up and doing that stuff because a lot of people have been around and ARE tired of saying it again. The audience for these videos is pretty explicitly stated as a 101 audience.

        1. tigtog
          tigtog September 4, 2013 at 7:07 pm | *

          Yes, it’s crucial. Part of me wishes that the internet could actually be more like a library where there’s an accepted canon of reading on a topic and something comprehensive written 20 years ago would still be the top result in search engines. But that’s not how the internet is working right now, is it?

          So we need people to keep on doing 101.

      2. Echo Zen
        Echo Zen September 4, 2013 at 6:34 pm |

        Yeah, that’s a concern I shared with Jill, that this episode topic might be too elementary for Feministe’s sophisticated (by blogospheric standards) readership. Hopefully the next few will start to ramp up in complexity, depending on questions people submit…!

        1. tigtog
          tigtog September 4, 2013 at 6:55 pm | *

          I think it might be a good idea to tag any 101 posts with “101″ to make it clearer that WE KNOW, and It’s Meant To Be That Way. In fact, why don’t I just add that tag to this post?

        2. Echo Zen
          Echo Zen September 4, 2013 at 7:02 pm |

          Whoa… I’m a midwife to the birth of a new post tag!

        3. tigtog
          tigtog September 4, 2013 at 7:09 pm | *

          And now I’m going to be going back through the archives and finding more posts to tag as ’101′, so that the Related Posts plugin works better for the newbs. Because I do that with stuff.

        4. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
          The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 4:08 am |

          But not everyone coming to read Feministe is necessarily a sophisticated reader familiar with the literature (blog or book). I’m not; this is one of the very few feminist sites I read, and I’m not a young woman coming to it. I think it’s great that there’s going to be more work for different levels of familiarity (I won’t say “levels of readership” because that implies unfamiliarity makes someone lesser).

      3. Niall
        Niall September 5, 2013 at 10:00 am |

        There will always be a need for someone to be doing 101, because there’s always more newbie eyeballs arriving in new-to-them ways of thinking about the world, and on Feministe that is especially true because when Lauren chose the punny name for her little blog back in 2001 she didn’t realise that it would end up always being a top result in search engines for anyone searching on “feminism”.

        Yes it’s always going to be necessary for the reasons you’ve mentioned. And while I’ve no issues with the OP (The information was old hat to me as well. But it was still a breath of fresh air and innovation to see someone put it into a visual media format.), my understanding from regularly reading social justice blogs for the last few years, is that there was consensus that such places were not the places for 101 level discussions. I gather this was due to experience with posters (often with male privilege) barging into spaces like feminist blogs and derailing discussions by demanding that the regular contributors educate them about very basic concepts; ie “what’s patriarchy?” and “why do feminists think all men are rapists” etc and they would get angry when the more established contributors told them that it wasn’t their job to educate them and that members of non-privileged groups don’t have an obligation to educate privileged ones about basic issues etc. In fact, I thought that this was one of the reasons why you, Tigtog (and others) created the finallyfeminism101 blog – to satisfy the need to educate others on basic concepts so discussions on other blogs weren’t getting derailed all the time.

        Of course, what some people consider a 101 topic wouldn’t be considered so by others and those that are might not be covered in much depth elsewhere, so I guess some latitude for these topics might be called for.

        1. tigtog
          tigtog September 5, 2013 at 5:46 pm | *

          Niall, I don’t think there’s any consensus that *on-topic* 101 discusssions are inappropriate on social justice blogs. The problem is *off-topic* 101 questions derailing non-101 discussions.

        2. tigtog
          tigtog September 5, 2013 at 7:22 pm | *

          Further clarification: your phrasing seems to suggest an impression that social justice blogs all decided that they would never ever again host a 101-level discussion, which seems such a very wrong impression to me that I’m having trouble parsing it.

          So far as there is any consensus at all about the appropriateness or not of 101 discussions on social justice blogs, it would seem to be that SJ blogs tend to agree that they refuse to let *every* discussion on their blog become a 101-level discussion, because when the OP is pitched at a more advanced level of analysis/understanding then dropping back down to 101 to accommodate one or a few persons who need a glossary ends up sabotaging the higher-level discussion.

    5. miga
      miga September 4, 2013 at 5:55 pm |

      I have an invisible disability and employ the spoons upon occasion.

      I’ve also been the target of many a Nice Guy(tm), one of whom got so mad when I told him to stop hitting on me that he attempted to (and nearly succeeded) ruin my friendship with his friend and my ex boyfriend, who is an actual nice guy and good person.

      So does this mean my experience trumps yours?

      1. miga
        miga September 4, 2013 at 5:55 pm |

        Because I can pull out examples all day.

  2. Comrade Kevin
    Comrade Kevin September 4, 2013 at 11:59 am |

    Once upon a time, even I believed that I couldn’t find a girlfriend because I was too nice.

    What I discovered is that I had to get past my own baggage in order to find a nice girl. Experience is a crucial metric, along with figuring out what we really want in a relationship partner. None of us has it down completely, which is the point of dating.

    Each partner I’ve had has taught me something, even the ones that ended badly. This combined effort is relationship maturation, which is knowing the lay of the land and above all, recognizing how to avoid dead-ends and poor judgment.

    Know thyself, is the advice I’d dispense to everyone, regardless of gender.

  3. Roboten
    Roboten September 4, 2013 at 12:27 pm |

    I personally have serious issues with the narrative that’s being presented here, that “nice guys” are all secretly objectifying women and see them as walking sex-dispensing-machines. Now I can’t say it’s completly false all the time, but I can say that during my 24 years on this green earth, growing up amongst and myself being a nerdy guy of the computer, music and math variety, I’ve never personally come across this kind of person. I’ve had lots of friends who’ve had their heart broken from being unable to attract the girls they’ve been interested in, but never once have I heard them attributing their failure to being to nice.

    1. Jill
      Jill September 4, 2013 at 12:32 pm | *

      Well, then your friends are not the Nice Guys being discussed here.

      Men who complain that they can’t attract girls because they are JUST TOO NICE are really a thing. A real-live thing that lots and lots of women have observed, commented on and criticized. In my 30 years on this green earth I have never seen a koala in the wild. It doesn’t mean they don’t exist, or that people who have seen them are lying, or that because I have seen other marsupials it means koalas are not real.

      1. Roboten
        Roboten September 5, 2013 at 8:13 am |

        I’m not saying they don’t exist, I’ve seen all the memes you have, I’m just not convinced it’s as common as people think it is. I’ve seen bitterness, frustration and even anger among nerds, mostly directed at themselves, for being unable to attract women. I’ve seen guys trying to get a girl interested in them by being their friend and being nice to an absurd degree. I’ve seen guys being completly dumbfounded when guys we know are such complete arsehats get a lot of women. All behaviours that, when looking from an outsiders perspective, appears to be that of “nice guys”. However, I’ve yet to see any sense of entitlement and objectification along the lines of “I did these nice things to her, why doesn’t she envelop my dick?”.

        Most nerds get that niceness isn’t a thing you get attracted to in itself, and we struggle to develop the social skills it takes to be an attractive person, but from the internets I’ve come to understand that a very small minority seem to not get it, at all.

        On a related note I think the nice guys we guys talk about and the “nice guys” women experience aren’t actually the same people. I’ve known a couple of guys who I can see not being above indulging in this kind of behaviour, but if that’s true then what women call “nice guys” are actually what we call “complete fucking assholes” and I would never under any circumstances associate myself with them.

        1. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
          The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 4:17 am |

          Roboten, you’re not on the receiving end of the NiceGuy(TM) behaviour, so are you in the best position to judge it?

          I’ve seen bitterness, frustration and even anger among nerds, mostly directed at themselves, for being unable to attract women.

          Mostly directed at themselves. Also, “being unable to attract women” sounds like they’re talking about women as a monolithic entity, not being interested in an individual person – “I like Laura, she’s so clever and we have these great conversations, but she’s just not interested in me as a friend” isn’t the same thing as women, plural. Maybe I’m reading too much into your wording, but it does sound to me like your friends aren’t really seeing women as individual people.

          I’ve seen guys trying to get a girl interested in them by being their friend and being nice to an absurd degree.

          Could be that they’re all too obviously trying too hard, couldn’t it? If I was dating I’d hate that, even if I was interested in the guy. They’d be better off relaxing and being themselves … you know, like they probably do with each other, with men they’re friends with, people whose pants they’re not hoping to get into.

          Maybe they’re not NiceGuys(TM) at all; maybe they’re just young and nervous and not exactly socially skilled. But I’m still seeing a lot of women-as-prize in your description, and that sure isn’t going to help matters, for them or the women they encounter.

        2. Lateef
          Lateef September 8, 2013 at 1:58 pm |

          Do nice guys who think women are obligated to give them sex exist? Yes.

          However, I think there are far more assholes, guys who are not nice, who are controlling and manipulative, who think women are obligated to give them sex. I think there are way more of those.

          And I think there are a lot of (unattractive) nice guys who are befuddled when they are unsuccessful attracting the individual women they find attractive. Dude, it’s mostly because you’re unattractive, not too nice. And I think there are a lot more of that type that don’t believe in obligatory sex than ones that do, or true assholes who definitely believe in obligatory sex.

        3. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
          The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 3:47 pm |

          Do nice guys who think women are obligated to give them sex exist? Yes.

          However, I think there are far more assholes, guys who are not nice, who are controlling and manipulative, who think women are obligated to give them sex. I think there are way more of those.

          Lateef, they’re not nice guys; they’re NiceGuys(TM), a whole different matter. The title exists to make the point that they’re not actually nice, that they are manipulative and whiney and entitled. That they are, in fact, arseholes, pretending to be friends with women when they have little to no interest in them as individual people.

        4. Lateef
          Lateef September 8, 2013 at 3:58 pm |

          “Lateef, they’re not nice guys; they’re NiceGuys(TM), a whole different matter.”

          Yep, I agree. I should have added the trademark and capitalization. I’m kind of sloppy sometimes, which doesn’t really help much.

        5. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
          The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 7:48 pm |

          Lateef – the reason I jumped on that was ‘cos so many MRAs and general douchebags (and the NG(TM)s themselves, of course) wilfully ignore the difference between a nice guy (ie a decent person) and a NiceGuy(TM). I didn’t want anyone able to come in here and point to your comment and say “See? Women don’t like nice guys!”

        6. Lateef
          Lateef September 9, 2013 at 1:18 am |

          @The Kittehs’

          Gotcha. Thank you. You rock.

          I occasionally get mistaken for an MRA on first glance, so it’s helpful to learn ways to craft my language more succinctly. Again, thank you.

      2. Bfing Sarah
        Bfing Sarah September 5, 2013 at 8:27 pm |

        Yeah…it is a Really Real Thing That Really Happens. Please, trust those of us who have experienced this particular whine over and over and over. I have met so many Nice Guys that mansplained to me that the Real Reason I didn’t want to date them was because they were just “too nice” (insert pouty face here). Of course, it was never because we didn’t share interests or because I really wanted to be single or because I wasn’t attracted to them. Nope. It was because I just HAAATE niceness!! All women do, according to the Nice Guy (TM) website! (Never mind that I married a super kind, generous, and compassionate man who is genuinely nice.) In my secret heart I am (still) looking for an ass, because women love assholes, obvs.

        It really happens a lot. Dudes say this stuff all the time. Please believe.

        1. Roboten
          Roboten September 8, 2013 at 10:15 am |

          Men say that to you? Like, grown-up men? That are not institutionalized? Oh my…

          However, my issue wasn’t with what guys say to women, which from what I’ve seen in this tread apparently are horrible horrible things. I just don’t think it’s neither fair nor true to conclude that someone thinking of themself as a “nice guy” automatically are objectifying all women and feeling entitled to sex. That is a question regarding the mindset of “nice guys”, and since many of them seem to come from my demographic I think I at least have somewhat of an idea of how their brains work. And I seriously don’t think it’s an entitlement and objectification issue, you can be just as much of an asshole without being an entitled asshole.

        2. Radiant Sophia
          Radiant Sophia September 8, 2013 at 10:38 am |

          I think I at least have somewhat of an idea of how their brains work

          Yes. You speak for all men the way I speak for all women.
          SERIOUSLY?

        3. CaitlinH
          CaitlinH September 8, 2013 at 7:12 pm |

          That are not institutionalized?

          Roboten, I’m gonna second what Radiant Sophia said about you speaking for all men, and also ask that you please knock it off with the ableism.

        4. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
          The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 7:55 pm |

          Roboten: thirding the “knock it off with the ableism” and will you STOP CONFLATING TERMS.

          NiceGuys(TM) are not fucking nice guys. They are not nice people. They are not decent people. They are whiney, entitled and sometimes predatory men who only “befriend” women in the expectation of sexual relationship; there’s no other reason to be friends with a woman, hence the term “friendzoned” being used like it’s hell on earth. They do not, basically, see us as human beings, but as sex vending machines who have cheated them out of their kindness coins. They haven’t the honesty to say they’d like such a relationship: women are expected to be mindreaders. Even an unmistakable NO doesn’t make them act like adults and go away; the idea that a woman is entitled to her preferences never occurs to them, it’s all about their egos and their dicks.

          Now either get these things through your head and learn something, or kindly take your mansplaining and willfull blindness and refusal to accept women’s lived experience and go away.

    2. Revolver
      Revolver September 4, 2013 at 12:37 pm |

      I come across this quite often doing online dating. “I don’t even know why I’m even on this thing, girls always go for the asshole anyway. I guess I’m just too nice.”

      Guess so.

    3. Miranda
      Miranda September 4, 2013 at 1:42 pm |

      Now I can’t say it’s completly false all the time, but I can say that during my 24 years on this green earth, growing up amongst and myself being a nerdy guy of the computer, music and math variety, I’ve never personally come across this kind of person.

      Well, if YOU, as a MAN, have never seen it…

      Maybe it’s because school has started again and I’m stuck dealing with That Guy who ruins every seminar (and yes, this person is almost always, though not exclusively, a white male), but I have just had it up to here with arrogant, myopic mansplaining.

      1. Karak
        Karak September 4, 2013 at 3:59 pm |

        That Guy is one of my students and I’m honestly hoping he gets hit by a bus and is not permanently or seriously injured but spends the next 3 months in a hospital AND NOT IN MY CLASS.

        1. Bagelsan
          Bagelsan September 5, 2013 at 11:20 pm |

          Maybe he could get bus-induced amnesia and forget how to be an entitled chatty douchebag?

    4. Alara Rogers
      Alara Rogers September 4, 2013 at 1:59 pm |

      During my first 24 years on this earth, being a nerdy girl of the computer, science and science fiction variety, I had only met one, and he was blatant about it.

      Then when I was 30 I discovered that at least four guys I thought were my friends were actually this guy.

      Don’t expect you will necessarily see this dude. If other men don’t feel comfortable whining to you about how girls don’t like them, they won’t tell you. Women only find out when the guy admits what he’s up to (or they tell the female friends that they themselves have “friendzoned” out of being a romantic possibility, with no sense of irony as they tell a woman they’re not attracted to, who might be attracted to them, that women aren’t attracted to them, because the women they’re attracted to aren’t.)

      Also, if you haven’t been victimized by this guy, you won’t be sensitized to his existence. So you might not notice.

      1. Donna L
        Donna L September 4, 2013 at 3:08 pm |

        Back in the day, 25 or 30 years ago, there were quite a number of guys whom I heard complain — when they thought that only other guys were listening — that girls didn’t like them (other than as friends) and only liked good-looking assholes and “bad boys,” etc. Terms like “friend zone” and Nice Guy™ may not have been invented yet, but the phenomenon was already thriving, as I’m sure it was 30 years before that.

        For the most part, though, the guys I heard complaining like this didn’t seem to be doing it with any belief that women should like them just because they were “nice,” or any sense of entitlement in that regard, or any conscious strategizing that they should be “nice” not merely because they enjoyed someone’s friendship, but because it might end up getting them somewhere. It was more plain old whiny, pessimistic bitterness, based on self-negativity and a conviction that they would never find anyone. Combined with a simultaneous envy of, and desire to ridicule, other men whom they saw as good-looking assholes who were successful with women.

        I had my own issues with thinking that no woman I was interested in would ever be interested in me, but it certainly wasn’t because I thought I was too “nice.” There were plenty of other reasons, most of them having to do with my gender issues, and my deep-seated belief that I was physically unattractive (as any gender). And my unwillingness (mostly attributable to fear of being mistaken) to accept at face value most of the overtures I did receive over the years — which, in retrospect, I now realize were sufficiently frequent, and sufficiently unambiguous, to suggest that my insecurities and fears may have been somewhat unfounded. But I don’t get a do-over, and besides, I don’t think any man-woman relationship in which I was the man would have worked out very well for very long anyway. Any more than my marriage did.

        1. TomSims
          TomSims September 4, 2013 at 3:52 pm |

          “It was more plain old whiny, pessimistic bitterness, based on self-negativity and a conviction that they would never find anyone. Combined with a simultaneous envy of, and desire to ridicule, other men whom they saw as good-looking assholes who were successful with women.”

          I’ve known a few guys like that over the years. But most guys just lie and tell tall tales of all the women they bed. But it is true that attractive people, both men and women get more bites at the apple. And the rest of us have to work a bit harder to get dates. Even if I weren’t married, I’m way past the dating and sex age and it comes as a huge relief. There’s nothing like peace and quiet.

    5. Bagelsan
      Bagelsan September 4, 2013 at 2:53 pm |

      During my 26 years on this green earth, growing up amongst and myself being a nerdy person of the computer, biology and math variety…

      …you’re deluding yourself that Nice Guys don’t exist. You’ve heard of the “friendzone” certainly? That’s the whiny cry of the Nice Guy in action, his lack-of-mating call, if you will. Pretty much every goddamn meme ever made about a girl rejecting someone is made by a Nice fucking Guy.

      1. Roboten
        Roboten September 5, 2013 at 7:43 am |

        Yeah, I’ve heard of it, on the internets, so it’s hard to tell if it’s a common thing among us men IRL. They only time I’ve heard it IRL is an extremely ironic manner, since any guy with a hint of intellect gets it’s a stupid fucking term with no basis in reality. Of course it happens, or else we wouldn’t be talking about it, I’m just saying the entitled nice guy isn’t such a big thing IRL that the internets makes it out to be.

        1. Bagelsan
          Bagelsan September 5, 2013 at 11:19 pm |

          I’m just saying the entitled nice guy isn’t such a big thing IRL that the internets makes it out to be.

          How in the world would you know? *genuinely puzzled*

        2. tinfoil hattie
          tinfoil hattie September 6, 2013 at 4:14 pm |

          Give yourself another 26 years, and get back to me. It is entirely possible that you haven’t experienced every single type of person and circumstance that exists on this green earth.

          Also? “Mansplaining” is what you’re doing. Telling women that what we have experienced and what we KNOW to be true is not, after all, true, because A Man has not had this particular experience.

        3. littlem
          littlem September 6, 2013 at 4:22 pm |

          Yeah, I’ve heard of it, on the internets, so it’s hard to tell if it’s a common thing among us men IRL.

          Google “friendzone”.

          Then count the entries.

          This may help you.

        4. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
          The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 5:55 am |

          Also, the internet is real life. It’s real people communicating.

        5. Roboten
          Roboten September 8, 2013 at 9:49 am |

          It seems my point isn’t getting across as much as I’d hoped, which is my completly my fault, so allow me to try again:

          I’m not trying to say that the things people here have experienced hasn’t happened, or isn’t valid. My intention is not to try and “mansplain” what has happened to you and other people here. If that’s the way I’m coming across then I’m sorry. My last comment was about all the frickin’ “friendzone”-memes that’s everywhere on the tubes nowadays, which if they represented the average male psyche would indicate that there are more friend-zoned guys OTI than there are people in the world.

        6. Radiant Sophia
          Radiant Sophia September 8, 2013 at 10:20 am |

          Also, the internet is real life. It’s real people communicating.

          Nope. The internet is a semi-sapient AI talking to itself.

          I’m kind of weirded out by people who believe the internet is somehow “fake” or “not real”. It’s not a magical winged unicorn.

    6. Karak
      Karak September 4, 2013 at 3:58 pm |

      Not to be rude, but your friends probably aren’t using social manipulation to stick their dick in you. Nice Guy behavior is directed at women. You probably just never noticed it because, frankly, dudes are really bad at noticing stupid shit that their dudebros do to/around women.

      Why don’t you ask the women in your life about this? (Protip: if you don’t have any lady friends in your circle, this might be a sign of an issue).

      1. Roboten
        Roboten September 5, 2013 at 7:35 am |

        Oh believe me when I say my circle of friends involve a lot of men and women who’ve been involved with each other in different ways, often very comlicated ways, and I’ve often been the one to get both sides of the story. And never have ever heard anyone say “she doesn’t like me because I’m too nice” or “why does she only like jerks”. Sure, we being nerds, have often tried to deconstruct human and female behaviour to try to figure out how to get a certain girl to like you, or how to be more attractive in general, but the worst it’s ever come to is “why does this guy get all the girls DESPITE being such an asshole?”. The answer of course being that he’s an outgoing, funny guy who you don’t know is a jerk until you get to know him better.

        And sure, I’ve seen some instances of the “platonic friend backdoor gambit” but when it’s failed none of friends have blamed it on being to nice, but on the fact that it’s a stupid fucking way to get a girl interested in you.

        1. Miranda
          Miranda September 5, 2013 at 12:05 pm |

          Maybe I’m not giving you enough benefit of the doubt because you’ve already pissed me off once, but

          tried to deconstruct human and female behaviour

          Please do explain this Platonic category of female behavior that you have somehow managed to separate from regular old human behavior.

        2. Roboten
          Roboten September 5, 2013 at 8:06 pm |

          Well I guess I should have been a bit clearer there. Of course what I meant to say is human behaviour in general and the behaviour of subhuman walking vaginas in particular.

          What was the point of your question? I’m seriously asking, is there any point in calling out this very slight slip-up in the language of my post? Is this some kind of language barrier, am I just not noticing your valuable contributions to this discussion?

          Tell me why and how I’m wrong in this discussion instead, that kind of post contributes nothing at all.

        3. tigtog
          tigtog September 5, 2013 at 8:25 pm | *

          I’m seriously asking, is there any point in calling out this very slight slip-up in the language of my post?

          Your “very slight slip-up” is a textbook example of an implicit bias which supports structural bias in action, that’s why. To you it’s no big deal, that’s why you chose to take your response to hyperbolic heights by using a phrase Miranda never used (“subhuman walking vaginas”) and using it in a dismissive manner as a bloody joke and doubling down by fucking sneering at Miranda, who took great pains to challenge your wording in a spectacularly civil manner.

          Calling out implicit bias on a social justice blog is what happens on a social justice blog. Don’t you dare tell someone that it contributes nothing at all.

          So, here's a moderator note: you can knock that shit off right now.

        4. Fat Steve
          Fat Steve September 8, 2013 at 5:53 pm |

          “subhuman walking vaginas”

          I think I have their first album…

    7. Karak
      Karak September 4, 2013 at 4:14 pm |

      Oh btw proof that other nerdy guys have TOTALLY seen this go down: http://xkcd.com/513/

      1. Alexandra
        Alexandra September 5, 2013 at 3:18 pm |

        I don’t even have to click to know it’s going to be the brilliant “Friends with Detriments” comic, a version of which I saw played out among my own circle of acquaintances five years ago.

      2. Roboten
        Roboten September 5, 2013 at 8:15 pm |

        How is the character in that comic feeling entitled to sex? The good ol’ “platonic friend backdoor gambit” is of course a cowardly and creepy thing to do, but that doesn’t mean guys giving it a try feels entitled to sex. It’s usually born out of a fear of rejection and a lack of experience and knowledge in how attraction works.

        1. tigtog
          tigtog September 5, 2013 at 8:31 pm | *

          This thread’s already done the rebuttal regarding the straw-claim “Nice Guys™ feel entitled to sex” vs the actual claim in the post “Nice Guys™ feel entitled to dates, or sex or something“. Do try to keep up.

        2. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
          The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 6:00 am |

          First you call it a gambit and then say they’re not using this gambit for something – so which is it?

    8. shfree
      shfree September 4, 2013 at 9:56 pm |

      Had a dude whine to me that he should just start being an asshole because the girl he liked didn’t like him back even though he bent over backwards doing favors for her and whatnot, and she started dating someone he thought was a jerk instead of HIM. And this was roughly fifteen years ago, so this whole thing has been around.

  4. Tony
    Tony September 4, 2013 at 12:40 pm |

    It was definitely “a thing” several years ago, and will always exist. But if it’s declined enough that lots of people under 25 have never encountered the type, that’s a good thing. See this Dr Nerdlove post for the quintessential self proclaimed Nice Guy and a very good takedown (http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2012/12/problem-nice-guys/)

    We’ve (and the pickup artists) been taking down the Nice Guy for so many years that I’m willing to believe the mentality has possibly gone into remission, but not that it’s totally disappeared.

    1. Clytemnestra's Sister
      Clytemnestra's Sister September 4, 2013 at 12:57 pm |

      Oh no. They’re still there. I got nice-guyed last year in December and it still creeps me out.

      The problem with Nice Guys (TM) is the fundamental dishonesty of their approach. If you’re nice to women (however one defines nice), then women owe you something beyond the bounds of reasonable friendship. I would say that I owe my friends, male and female, kindness, respect, courtesy, decent treatment, and a certain level of privacy within the friendship. I expect the same from them–they’re my friends, right? I do NOT expect that they’ll drop everything for me, or that the ones I’m sexually interested in will give me teh secks just because *I* am interested in them, or that if we don’t have mutual sexual attraction that our friendship is somehow second-tier.

      Having folks calling out Nice Guys on their crap, and deconstructing the implication behind the Friend Zone concept (aka if you consider my friendship a cheap secondhand substitute to sexing it up with me, that’s really freaking insulting), and otherwise making public that this kind of behaviour is both unacceptable and unlikely to get them what they want, helps. But they’re still out there.

      1. Alara Rogers
        Alara Rogers September 4, 2013 at 1:53 pm |

        The other serious problem with the whole concept of the Friend Zone is that it assumes the alternatives are friend or boyfriend. In fact, women know who they want to date and won’t be put off by the fact that the guy is their friend — friends make *better* boyfriends because you know they respect you and have things in common with you, in general. It’s a Hollywood invention that women genuinely don’t want to date their friends.

        No, if she tells you (“you” being generic NiceGuy) she doesn’t want to ruin your friendship by dating you, it’s because she has no sexual interest in you whatsoever and is not going to tell you so because you’re her friend and that would be cruel. So your alternatives were never friend or boyfriend. They were, friend or nobody. And until the male gender stops killing women or beating them up when men get mad at women, do not expect women to *ever* honestly tell you that the problem is they are not attracted to you and will never be; it’s a survival trait for women to be kind and polite and tell men white lies to preserve men’s egos, and if you expect different, go up to a guy twice your size and insult him and see how well it works for you.

        Men try to avoid the FriendZone because they think it’s the kiss of death for a relationship, but the kiss of death happened when the woman decided she just wasn’t attracted to the guy. Being friends with a woman isn’t fatal to your romance; being unattractive to that woman is. But women are quite happy to be friends with men they aren’t attracted to, because we aren’t socialized to despise men unless we want into their pants the way men are socialized to despise women.

        And could someone in Hollywood please stop whining over the plight of the poor, poor man who’s friends with a woman who doesn’t want him, and think for one goddamn second about the plight of the woman who discovers that her good friend actually has no interest in her except as a potential hole for his penis? Why don’t we get any fucking stories about what it’s like to discover that someone you thought genuinely liked you was stringing you along with “friendship” because he wanted into your pants, and he’ll dump you as a friend like a hot potato if he gets a girlfriend or you get a boyfriend? Why is it always about women being manipulative and aloof, and not about the manipulative nature of the NiceGuy? If you *want* to ruin your friendship with a woman you’re attracted to, making it clear to her that all you ever really wanted out of her was a booty call will do it, sure thing.

        1. LC
          LC September 4, 2013 at 3:15 pm |

          There also seems to be a giant gap here where it is possible to both be attracted to someone and want to sleep with them AND also appreciate them as a human being and a friend.

          I have friends I am attracted to and would sleep with and/or date. They are not interested. This does not mean they suddenly become bad people and not my friends.

          Not wanting to have sex with me is not, in fact, a character flaw.

          I disagree with this, though.

          No, if she tells you (“you” being generic NiceGuy) she doesn’t want to ruin your friendship by dating you, it’s because she has no sexual interest in you whatsoever and is not going to tell you so because you’re her friend and that would be cruel.

          It is entirely possible in my experience to be attracted to someone but think that actually sleeping with them won’t work out well. Maybe you have very different dating patterns, so you know it would end badly. (i.e. – One of you wants casual sex/fwb but the other would want to date, so it would go off the rails quickly.)
          But that’s a nitpick, really.

        2. TomSims
          TomSims September 4, 2013 at 4:32 pm |

          “In fact, women know who they want to date and won’t be put off by the fact that the guy is their friend — friends make *better* boyfriends because you know they respect you and have things in common with you, in general. It’s a Hollywood invention that women genuinely don’t want to date their friends.”

          A young guy at work began dating a woman who was one of his friends and they just got married a few months ago. And you’re right Hollywood has invented many things over the years and all of it is false. But people , mostly younger people, still go to the movies in droves and fall for the crap they put on the Silver Screen.

        3. Clytemnestra's Sister
          Clytemnestra's Sister September 4, 2013 at 4:34 pm |

          This is to LC:

          I have friends I am attracted to and would sleep with and/or date. They are not interested. This does not mean they suddenly become bad people and not my friends.

          I have a male friend whose brains I would HAPPILY bang out, if he wanted that. He doesn’t, or at least, he has not indicated to me that he would like that.

          It would be an awful thing to do to somebody who I like and respect, and who I think is worthy of the title of friend, to either cling to him like an octopus, or to throw out any other bit of friendship, simply because he didn’t actually want to hop into the sack with me. Awful, disrespectful, and at least on some level, cruel.

          To Alara Rodgers:

          IMO one friend saying to another that “I have no sexual interest for you” is far, far less cruel than persistently trying to slow-arm-twist another person into the sack, when they have repeatedly indicated no, I’m not interested in you that way. It’s possible to say that to a person kindly and without judgement, and honestly if people are good enough friends to merit a proposition? They can take honesty in return. They can also take what TC said, about just because we CAN and we’re willing doesn’t mean we SHOULD (I had that happen recently, shot somebody down and it was the right thing to do, and while the relationship didn’t go “back to what it was” that person is still a friend and if anything I trust that person more for respecting my NO.)

          Ignoring a sincere no is by far the greater evil.

        4. amblingalong
          amblingalong September 4, 2013 at 6:00 pm |

          In fact, women know who they want to date and won’t be put off by the fact that the guy is their friend — friends make *better* boyfriends because you know they respect you and have things in common with you, in general. It’s a Hollywood invention that women genuinely don’t want to date their friends.

          I loved your post, but this part is, frankly, BS. I agree that this is often what’s going on, but I absolutely don’t think this is always the case. Not everyone thinks that sexual relationships are more important than friendships; I’ve actively avoided sleeping with people I was attracted to because I thought we’d end up together, and then eventually break up, and if it was a nasty breakup I wouldn’t have that friendship to rely on when I was 85 in a nursing home. I can find sex somewhere else.

          I know plenty of women who’ve made that same choice with their close friends. Two women I know slept together, regretted it, and consciously chose not to hook up again despite their mutual attraction, because they didn’t think it would end well. Etc, etc, etc.

          I find statements that begin “women do X” or “men like Y” tend to be wrong.

        5. Alara Rogers
          Alara Rogers September 4, 2013 at 6:15 pm |

          Ignoring a sincere no is by far the greater evil.

          Oh, absolutely. But a lot of women don’t say “I have no sexual interest in you whatsoever”, they say “You’re like a brother to me” or “I don’t want to ruin our friendship”, because those things mean No, but are not as cruel as an explicit sexual rejection would be. And even women who are clueless enough or sadistic enough to be cruel often check themselves when it’s their friend, because he’s their friend. And even women who are cruel to their friends might think twice about being gratuitously cruel to a male friend because men are more likely to be violent about rejection. So it’s not frequent that women out and out *say* “I am not attracted to you.” We try to use politer terms.

          But the message we’re conveying is absolutely, clearly, “No.” I hear NiceGuys and MRAs bitching that women are two-faced because we don’t say “No, you’re not attractive”, but rather “I don’t want to ruin our friendship”. The point I was making is that that is not the woman being weaselly, or lying maliciously; that is the woman actually trying to let the guy down easily. And it’s been proven that in other contexts, men understand this kind of “no” that doesn’t blatantly say the word “no” perfectly well. It’s only when women say it that men use it as an excuse to think they didn’t really say no.

          You are absolutely right that ignoring a sincere no is a far, far crueler thing to do than to bluntly state your feelings. I’d never argue against that. I am actually pretty sure that ignoring an understated, polite “no” is a level of assholery far greater than the bluntness would have been. But men don’t generally work really, really hard to avoid being seen as jerks by women; most women try very hard not to be seen as jerks (most of us by anyone, some of us just by men), so women try harder to be polite than men do. And then, some men use this as an excuse to say women are two-faced and hypocritical. But they’d still expect the politeness and call any woman who was more blunt a bitch.

          And other posters are right that sometimes, it *is* that the woman thinks a sexual relationship with the man would be a terrible idea even if she might otherwise be interested. But odds are, it would be a terrible idea whether or not he was her friend, and she’s not refusing him on the grounds that he is her friend, and not being her friend would not have changed her mind about it being a terrible idea. Women have many, many reasons for turning down men, but “you are my friend”…. well, I won’t say no woman has ever genuinely felt that way, because I’m sure some have, but it’s much, much rarer than the NiceGuys think it is. The fact that it’s a cultural trope allows women to use it as an excuse to let men down easy, which allows it to stay a cultural trope, but the fact is that very few women would refuse to date a man they found attractive, who they had good reason to think would be good relationship material and good for them, *just* because he is their friend. So this freaking out NiceGuys do over the “friend zone” is just ridiculous… would they have preferred that the woman in question ignore them completely and not even be interested in a friendship?

          It’s not friendship with a woman that prevents a man from having a romantic relationship with her. And frankly, I find the prevalence of this trope suspicious. Part of subtractive, performative masculinity (the kind of masculinity that says “anything women are, men cannot be” and emphasizes acting MANLY) is about suppressing empathy for women. And a trope whose whole purpose is to suggest that being friends with a woman dooms you to romantic irrelevance with her… well, I know there’s actually no smoky back room full of cigar smoking white old dudes called The Patriarchy where they conspire to keep the Woman down, but damn, doesn’t the existence of a trope that’s specifically aimed at insecure men who are not good at performing hypermasculinity that tells them that being friends with a woman will cause her to reject them romantically make you feel like some sort of entity *must* have invented that to enforce misogyny?

        6. LC
          LC September 4, 2013 at 10:38 pm |

          @Clytemnestra’s Sister

          It would be an awful thing to do to somebody who I like and respect, and who I think is worthy of the title of friend, to either cling to him like an octopus, or to throw out any other bit of friendship, simply because he didn’t actually want to hop into the sack with me. Awful, disrespectful, and at least on some level, cruel.

          Exactly. This doesn’t even seem like a very hard concept to me.

          They can also take what TC said, about just because we CAN and we’re willing doesn’t mean we SHOULD (I had that happen recently, shot somebody down and it was the right thing to do, and while the relationship didn’t go “back to what it was” that person is still a friend and if anything I trust that person more for respecting my NO.)

          Desire does not equal consent. Not even mutual desire.

          There are plenty of reasons to say no, even if you are both mutually attracted to each other. (And decent people respect each other’s “no”.)

        7. littlem
          littlem September 6, 2013 at 4:02 pm |

          it’s a survival trait for women to be kind and polite and tell men white lies to preserve men’s egos, and if you expect different, go up to a guy twice your size and insult him and see how well it works for you.

          I wish more men — especially those of the NiceGuy™ persuasion — were told this.

          I can’t help but wonder (unduly optimistically, perhaps) if it would abate some of the whining … because I’ve heard so many times “Well, if you’re (read: “women, as monolith”) aren’t attracted to us — then why don’t you just tell us? Why aren’t you honest with us?”

          Um — to quote Doc Brown, “Because the consequences could be disastrous!”

  5. EG
    EG September 4, 2013 at 1:08 pm |

    What I don’t like about the “wah, wah, I’m nice, and women go for assholes,” is that it puts the responsibility for men’s behavior on women: the implication, and sometimes it’s actually explicit, is that men are assholes because that’s what turns the ladies on, so if we get hurt, we have only ourselves to blame.

    Well, fuck that. You’re responsible for your own behavior. I happen to like short, slim guys who play electric guitar and have shortish hair, but somehow the world doesn’t keep providing them for me, so why on earth would some other woman’s preferences be responsible for the plethora of assholes out there?

    1. Alara Rogers
      Alara Rogers September 4, 2013 at 1:38 pm |

      It also overlooks the obvious — men are willing to date women who are assholes because the women are attractive, not because the women are assholes. So why don’t they recognize that when women are dating assholes, maybe the reason is that the asshole is attractive?

      Perhaps the NiceGuy doesn’t think the asshole is attractive. But, unlike women, who are constantly being reminded that they are the sex class and constantly having images of “what men find sexy” blasted at them and are encouraged to compete with each other on looks, men are actively discouraged from being able to assess the sexiness of other men, because apparently if a dude thinks too much about whether another dude is hot it means he’s gay, even if he’s doing it to assess his competition for women. (Remember, actually being willing to empathize with women because you love them makes you gay. No, I do not understand that logic either.) So most men are ill-equipped to accurately assess how hot another guy is to women.

      But you’d think that explanation would at least *occur* to them. It doesn’t. Because they are incapable of recognizing that they are not hot, or that hotness is even a dimension women care about. “I’m nice, why don’t women date me?” “Because you have never washed your face in your life and there are pizza stains on your shirt older than the girls you are trying to pick up?” “Naah, can’t be. Must be because girls like assholes!”

      (It actually is true that guys who are confident will get more women, and assholery can be mistaken for confidence by young, inexperienced women. So probably some guys *are* getting dates because they’re assholes. But the only reason men who are not confident don’t get dates is that women aren’t predators. The women who are confident get decent boyfriends; the women who are as shy and nerdy and insecure as the NiceGuy is either do not get dates either, or they get predators who push them around, and they’d have been better off not getting a date. So the NiceGuy *could* be grateful that the proportion of women who want to take advantage of shy, nervous guys is vastly lower than the proportion of men taking advantage of shy, nervous girls… but that would involve empathizing with women, and they can’t do that.)

      1. Lateef
        Lateef September 8, 2013 at 1:44 pm |

        “when women are dating assholes, maybe the reason is that the asshole is attractive”

        Yep. +1

    2. TomSims
      TomSims September 4, 2013 at 3:59 pm |

      “You’re responsible for your own behavior.”

      No truer words were ever spoken.

  6. Bloix
    Bloix September 4, 2013 at 2:47 pm |

    Perhaps the “nice guy” can’t interest women because he is boring. In my experience, although there are people who genuinely are assholes, there are also people who are busy, engaged, directed, and self-aware, who don’t have time for “nice” people who are unfocussed and aimless, and these kinds of people are often accused of being assholes or at least not very “nice.”

    If I were a friend of this guy, I would say to him: put your desire for a girlfriend aside. What do you really like to do? What are you good at? Where are you going in your life? What things make you excited? What bores you? What makes you angry?

    Or even, tell me how you spent each day over the past week.

    And if the result is that the guy is boring, that he wastes his time on TV and video games, that he hasn’t learned anything he hasn’t been forced to learn, that he’s got no personality, no skills, no plans, no goals, then you’ll know that “nice” simply means that he’s looking for a woman to provide him with a life. And that’s no solution. Time to figure out how to get a life on his own. Then, eventually, the girlfriend will just show up.

    1. Echo Zen
      Echo Zen September 4, 2013 at 5:47 pm |

      BINGO. We should just quote you in the next episode or something. Focus on being an engaging, exciting human being first, and THEN the partner stuff follows… not the other way around!

    2. Pinglady
      Pinglady September 8, 2013 at 10:04 am |

      Yes, I totally agree that Nice and Asshole are not opposites. For me, nice guys (genuinely nice guys) can be great friends. They are often introverts, in the sense that they think about the world and are very self-aware. But sexually, the kind of person I am attracted to is much … ‘sharper’, for lack of a better word. Maybe a quick wit, maybe energetic tension, maybe a temper. But fundamentally GOOD. Not ‘nice’, but good people.

      1. Pinglady
        Pinglady September 8, 2013 at 10:49 am |

        Sorry, my comment was a bit off-topic. My point is that guys have more choices than just ‘nice’ or ‘asshole’. Also, that people are individuals and attraction is a complicated business. I was single for years and years, not because it is difficult to find someone who has such masculine energy and is still a good person, but because it was difficult to find someone who matched with ME.
        Also because I enjoyed being single and I didn’t meet anyone who was amazing enough for me to give up the single life. Until I did :-).

  7. the brown recluse
    the brown recluse September 4, 2013 at 3:05 pm |

    or, ya know, maybe that person’s friend should try asking the women he wants to date / have sex with out on date’s / to have sex. One posibility is that said person is waiting on women to approach them in a dating and or sexual context, something most women refuse to do.

    (note, I said most, not all, and yes some of the reasons women refuse to do so include previously getting neggative reactions from men, and or being socialised to not be the initiator of an intimate encounter, this does not negate the fact that most {as in more than 50%} of the women in western cultured areas {as far as my observation carries me} are unwilling to approach a man)

    Since many men in recent generations have obsorbed feminist anti harrasment messages in extreem and some times hyperbolic contexts from very young ages (i.e. women stateing emphatically that they hate constantly being hit on when what they really mean is they hate being harrassed or being in situations where their non verbal cues of “I want to be left allone” are either being legitimately missed or maliciously ignored) they associate the context of approach AT ALL as being “something that good men don’t do”.

    From this context, it seems pretty likely that a large chunk of “nice guys” are simply being nice but not indicating intent because they don’t know how to do so in a way where they can feel confident they are not being rude and getting frusturated as a result of not knowing what else to do.

    Assuming that there is a singular cause for 90% of all “nice guy” ism on earth AND assuming that that cause is one form of misogyny is a) inaccurate. and b) seemingly arrogant.

    That’s not to say the misogynists don’t exist but pretending like there is no other possible reason for somebody to say the words “women wont date me cus I’m too nice” is never going to spawn “positive change” it would seem.

    1. pheenobarbidoll
      pheenobarbidoll September 4, 2013 at 4:06 pm |

      In short-its our job to spawn positive changes in male behavior because some men are fucking stupid and absorbed extreme interpretations of feminist messages. And of course, never bothered to confirm the message was correct. And it’s not misogynistic to believe anti feminist interpretations.

    2. Thomas MacAulay Millar
      Thomas MacAulay Millar September 4, 2013 at 4:47 pm |

      This is a load of nonsense. With possibly the occasional exception — I can think of one — I don’t buy at all that young men are walking around stewing in overstated feminist refrains about sexuality. Guys who don’t forthrightly express their attractions are insecure and fear rejection, full stop.

    3. Bagelsan
      Bagelsan September 4, 2013 at 5:41 pm |

      Since many men in recent generations have obsorbed feminist anti harrasment messages

      Wouldn’t that be nice!

    4. Miranda
      Miranda September 4, 2013 at 5:48 pm |

      Since many men in recent generations have obsorbed feminist anti harrasment messages in extreem and some times hyperbolic contexts from very young ages….they associate the context of approach AT ALL as being “something that good men don’t do”.

      men: WAHHHH WOMEN DON’T WANT TO BE HARASSED AND I HAZ CONFUSED ABOUT “HARASSMENT” VS. “ASSERTION”
      women: I have to constantly worry about whether men will rape, attack, stalk, or kill me.

      Maybe women would stop giving these messages “in extreme” if men stopped raping, attacking, stalking, and killing us.

      In other words: I do not give a shit about your arrogant and myopic whining.

    5. Echo Zen
      Echo Zen September 4, 2013 at 5:53 pm |

      “Since many men in recent generations have obsorbed feminist anti harrasment messages in extreem… from very young ages…”

      Wait, what? Are you sure you’re talking about the West? Are we even talking about this planet?

      1. littlem
        littlem September 6, 2013 at 2:52 pm |

        That commenter — he is from Mars.

  8. Jenna
    Jenna September 4, 2013 at 5:39 pm |

    But what matters is your feedback. We won’t stay static, like the Republican platform. We intend to improve based on what you think. Are we concise enough or too concise? Should we do longer episodes? Would more sarcasm appeal to you but perhaps alienate non-feminists we want to reach? We don’t know. So your feedback is vital.

    It seemed a nice length for a clip. It was long enough to explain, but, not so long that people tune out or shut it down. The humor level seemed good for the level of the question. It is already polished beyond my video savvy.
    The desserts were slightly distracting, but, that may just be my wheat deprived celiac self wanting donuts.

    1. Echo Zen
      Echo Zen September 4, 2013 at 5:56 pm |

      Thanks for the feedback, Jenna. (You’re the only one so far!) If other people also say the desserts are distracting, we’ll cut them out of future episodes… though we’ll stick with the same vlog name, since it’s got a nice ring to it. :-)

      1. Revolver
        Revolver September 4, 2013 at 7:30 pm |

        The desserts were a little distracting, only because they were clipped segments and repeated abruptly, which was oddly entrancing. I think if there was less movement, and more static pictures of dessert, I could focus more on the topic at hand. :)

      2. Echo Zen
        Echo Zen September 6, 2013 at 3:59 am |

        Entrancing, you say? I’ve heard folks saying the desserts look “cute” or “tasty”. “Entrancing” is a new one. This may become an inside joke amongst our crew someday. :-p

        The dessert animations might not change for another few episodes — and then only if we find an alternative that doesn’t conversely look *too* static. But we’ll definitely keep what you suggested in mind!

    2. macavitykitsune
      macavitykitsune September 4, 2013 at 6:30 pm |

      Seconding all this. It’s a good start, Echo. (And I didn’t find the desserts distracting, lol, fwiw.)

      1. trees
        trees September 4, 2013 at 10:31 pm |

        Well done Echo! I also found the banner with treats distracting.

  9. EG
    EG September 4, 2013 at 6:06 pm |

    I would also advise the dude in question to remember that this shit happens to women too, all the time. It’s not some special burden placed on guys. Girls and women will often be crushing out on someone who seems to want everybody in the world, particularly people who are bad for them, but the girl crushing out on them. So relax and accept that sometimes wanting someone who doesn’t want you back is just part of life.

    1. Alara Rogers
      Alara Rogers September 4, 2013 at 6:20 pm |

      In high school I had a major crush on a fellow nerd. He had a major crush on a cheerleader. At no point did I ever come to the conclusion that the reason he wanted a cheerleader who was deliberately ignorant of his existence, rather than me, was that I was too nice.

      But, you know, the movies aren’t all about the girl who really wants this guy, but he doesn’t know she exists, so she does wacky things to prove her love to him and finally by the end of the movie he melts into her arms… so obviously, we women never suffer rejection by men. Ever. Also, nerdy women can’t exist.

      1. EG
        EG September 4, 2013 at 10:02 pm |

        Can I tell you all about how it breaks my heart that, in a movie I otherwise love, Bring It On, the guy coded as punk (he wears a Clash t-shirt and plays electric guitar, OK?) is desperate for the head cheerleader, and the happy ending is that she gets him? I mean, good for them, but what about the punk girls? Why doesn’t he want us, I mean them?

        1. Donna L
          Donna L September 4, 2013 at 10:26 pm |

          This is why I refuse to watch movies like that anymore. The people I want to see end up together almost never do.

        2. shfree
          shfree September 4, 2013 at 10:27 pm |

          I felt the same way about the ending of Valley Girl!

        3. Clytemnestra's Sister
          Clytemnestra's Sister September 5, 2013 at 8:09 am |

          I don’t watch The Big Bang Theory for that exact reason. The entire premise is “nice guy chasing the girl.” It does evolve, and almost starts to deconstruct it, but the underpinnings are still why hasn’t the nice guy gotten the girl?

        4. tinfoil hattie
          tinfoil hattie September 6, 2013 at 4:23 pm |

          shfree, I hear you! I do love the scene where Nicholas Cage yells, “Well, FUCK YOU! For SURE! Like, TOTALLY!”

          But then, of course he goes to a punk bar and goes into the bar with some no-name girl to use her body as an outlet for his hostility and anger.

          GRRRRRRRR – because those “punk” girls understand that sex is just for dudes, right?

        5. Lateef
          Lateef September 8, 2013 at 9:19 am |

          Mainstreamers always bag on the “punk girl” as a freak and a weirdo. Even more than the “punk guy”.
          Punk girls: Oh so threatening to our society and idealized, pure way of life.

          Which is why punk girls are awesome. Because that idealized way of life is fictional.

    2. littlem
      littlem September 6, 2013 at 2:51 pm |

      It’s not some special burden placed on guys.

      The men who whine of this phenomenon miss this. Often.

      That’s a whole other rant (which centers largely around erasing women they don’t notice for whatever reason right out of existence).

  10. whistlewren
    whistlewren September 4, 2013 at 8:28 pm |

    From the comments so fat, it seems 101 posts are absolutely still needed.

    First up, great video Echo Zen! And kudos to you for investing time and effort into this project. A lot of people are going to find it very, very useful.

    It was do beneficial to me when I years ago first heard the term Nice Guy TM. It was clear that this did not include nice people purely, but those who expected that if they, as penis-possessing people, deigned to treat me or any other girl with simple fucking human decency for whatever they determined to be an appropriate length of time, this entitled them to adoration/a smitten girlfriend/sexy times. And understanding this phenomenon gave me the tools to not internalize the bullshit they spouted about me/all women (we are all a monolith, thus interchangeable with one another) just loved assholes, or that I was frigid, or a tease. That stuff is so fucking prevalent and damaging. It is super important to give people the tools to deconstruct the behavior of others which they may otherwise blame themselves for.

    1. whistlewren
      whistlewren September 4, 2013 at 8:29 pm |

      And now I remember why I rarely comment. Phone typing = face palm. Sorry for the typos everyone.

    2. Clytemnestra's Sister
      Clytemnestra's Sister September 4, 2013 at 9:48 pm |

      /all women (we are all a monolith, thus interchangeable with one another) just loved assholes, or that I was frigid, or a tease.

      Oh yeah. I love that.

      I had the one guy who I told, point blank, to his face, more than once, we are friends with privileges. We can fuck, but I’m not going to date you, ever, no matter what, because (reasons). Do you understand me?

      He said yes. And then hounded me, and called me a tease, and accused me of leading him on. Oh, and it was all my fault.

      I think it’s hard for some people to understand that you can have a situation where nothing is WRONG, but nothing is RIGHT either. It’s fully okay to be attracted to somebody, and fully okay for that somebody to tell you NO. Doesn’t mean you did wrong, doesn’t mean the other person did wrong, it’s just part of life. Kind of like hurricanes are massively destructive and powerful, but not evil. They’re weather patterns, not deliberate actions with malicious intent.

      1. Henry
        Henry September 5, 2013 at 12:27 pm |

        Being called a tease for fucking someone reaches a level of absurdity I thought was nearly impossible.

        1. littlem
          littlem September 6, 2013 at 2:49 pm |

          As ridiculous as that is, the part I’m really struggling with is that he *said he got it*, and then proceeded to berate and harass her with all sorts of borderline-abusive nonsense.

          And if he did it more than once, she’s got a far greater tolerance for that sort of chicanery than I do.

  11. Miguel
    Miguel September 4, 2013 at 9:16 pm |

    the head of a giraffe against a bright blue sky: its mouth is pursed sideways

    ::: Hey! U wrong ‘cos Schwizzy Schwizzy Schwizzy !!!11!!1! Mwahahahahahaha stoopid dishonest feminists !!!11!!1! :::

    [Moderator note - ORIGINAL COMMENT CONTENT HAS BEEN FLUFFINATED. You are welcome to recast your critique without bringing in irrelevances such as HS, and you might like to drop the other condescending jackassery too.]

  12. I love coments here
    I love coments here September 5, 2013 at 3:56 am |

    “Until I was 30, I dated only boys. I’ll tell you why: Men scared the sh*t out of me. Men know what they want. Men own alarm clocks. Men sleep on a mattress that isn’t on the floor. Men buy new shampoo instead of adding water to a nearly empty bottle of shampoo. Men make reservations. Men go in for a kiss without giving you some long preamble about how they’re thinking of kissing you. Men wear clothes that have never been worn by anyone else before.”

    Guess who wrote this ?

    1. Librarygoose
      Librarygoose September 5, 2013 at 10:59 pm |

      OH, I love guessing games!!!

      Was it Jesus?
      Or maybe lyrics to some Beatles song?

      …I’m gonna stick with my first guess.

      C’mon Jesus *crosses fingers*

    2. Donna L
      Donna L September 5, 2013 at 11:14 pm |

      This got a lot of attention when the person who wrote it came out with it a while ago. Unfortunately, I wasn’t familiar with her then, and I’m not now. So I won’t spoil it for anyone for whom her name would mean something.

    3. trees
      trees September 5, 2013 at 11:43 pm |

      Mindy Kaling for the win.

    4. shfree
      shfree September 5, 2013 at 11:50 pm |

      If someone went in for a kiss without some sort of indication that they were thinking of smooching, and giving me a little space to give some input, there would be Words, and not Pleasant Ones.

      1. Bagelsan
        Bagelsan September 6, 2013 at 12:05 am |

        Someone did that to me once, and got my ear when I sputtered and ducked. Super romantic. :p

        1. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
          The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 4:47 am |

          Heh. Even m’lord and I manage to hit the ear on occasion. However “giggle fits” and the “pleh” of trying to get hair out of the mouth tend to go with romance for us anyway. :)

    5. littlem
      littlem September 6, 2013 at 2:47 pm |

      That’s Cynthia Heimel, IINM.

      I would like to win something.

      (Just expressing a preference. :-))

  13. theLaplaceDemon
    theLaplaceDemon September 5, 2013 at 7:50 am |

    I just wanted to chime in to say three things:

    (1) Yes, I have met Nice Guys(TM) IRL.

    (2) Spend ten minutes on OKCupid and I promise you that you will find many profiles where men complain about there shitty dating history being caused by girls only liking assholes, or that they are always put in the Friendzone.

    (3) Seconding all the people who say “nice” is a baseline prerequisite.

  14. Miguel
    Miguel September 5, 2013 at 11:10 am |

    My original comment, unlike your response, was respectful in tone and an attempt to say something constructive.

    1. tigtog
      tigtog September 5, 2013 at 8:41 pm | *

      A woman in evening dress reclines on a fainting couch with one hand limply pressed against her forehead and her other hand down by her hip and clutching a strand of pearls

      1. PrettyAmiable
        PrettyAmiable September 5, 2013 at 8:42 pm |

        hahahahahahahhaha

      2. Aydan
        Aydan September 5, 2013 at 10:58 pm |

        Tigtog, you are the best.

      3. macavitykitsune
        macavitykitsune September 5, 2013 at 11:05 pm |

        …you remain a goddess. <3

      4. trees
        trees September 5, 2013 at 11:33 pm |

        Requesting more pearl clutching, vapors having flappers on fainting couches. …If only there was seated beside her a cute animal wearing a hat, and a man sitting at her feet knitting a scarf for their cat … well that would be a thing to behold …

        1. Bagelsan
          Bagelsan September 5, 2013 at 11:39 pm |

          Here’s a cat on a fainting couch!

          http://files.dogster.com/pix/cats/42/691742/691742_1199123101.jpg

          Doesn’t get more feminist than that, amiright?

        2. trees
          trees September 5, 2013 at 11:46 pm |

          Here’s a cat on a fainting couch!

          http://files.dogster.com/pix/cats/42/691742/691742_1199123101.jpg

          Doesn’t get more feminist than that, amiright?

          Love it! That cat just needs a box of bonbons.

      5. tinfoil hattie
        tinfoil hattie September 6, 2013 at 4:27 pm |

        Why are you so meeeeeeaaaaan???

  15. Henry
    Henry September 5, 2013 at 12:49 pm |

    The light pink banner with white text, especially in a video with lots of cool washed out lighting effects is hard to read – though I like the pastel colors and those are “in” right now so don’t take this as advice to switch to bolder colors, just maybe go a few shades darker so there is more contrast… The little box next to it with dessert animations draws the eye away from the text, because of the movement – killing the movement should make it work.

    I liked most of your advice except: “he should cultivate himself into someone engaging enough (like Ryan Gosling) to attract others” might have been followed with some “be himself” advice – people can smell faking it a mile away and this guy has already taken “being engaging” to a level where every woman he meets knows he is full of shit.

    1. Echo Zen
      Echo Zen September 6, 2013 at 2:07 am |

      Hmm… you might be right about that pink banner. I’ll make sure we darken it for the second episode, which we’re editing as I type, and then you can comment next time if you find it more readable. I want to make sure everyone feels their suggestions are at least influencing subsequent episodes — a feedback loop, so to speak.

      We’ll have to figure out alternatives to the dessert animation another time, as right now having non-moving stills instead of animation seems to make the video feel too slideshow-ish. Thanks for the input. :-)

  16. someGuy
    someGuy September 5, 2013 at 10:06 pm |

    I don’t want to derail the thread, but I noticed several commentators mentioned that they felt men and women were socialized differently in the way they handled/coped with the ups and downs of relationships and friendships. For example, Alara Rogers said:

    ….But women are quite happy to be friends with men they aren’t attracted to, because we aren’t socialized to despise men unless we want into their pants the way men are socialized to despise women.

    I was sort of curious if: 1) people could talk more about the ways men and women are socialized differently. I know anecdotal evidence can only go so far, but I’d be curious to hear more about this. 2) Are there books/literature/blogs that go into this specific issue?

    1. Bagelsan
      Bagelsan September 6, 2013 at 12:14 am |

      You might find FinallyFeminism101 helpful; it’s basically a bunch of intro stuff about feminism, gender equality, yadda yadda.

      Here’s a link to get you started: http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/?cat=27915

      1. someGuy
        someGuy September 7, 2013 at 2:25 pm |

        Thanks. I’m mostly familiar with a lot of the 101 stuff and the articles written by male feminists–Kimmel, et. al. Broadly speaking, I understand that men and women are socialized quite differently, but how this socialization manifests itself in daily life is a different matter. It goes without saying that male privilege is precisely what blocks me from understanding these things in a concrete way. I guess I was just hopeful to hear more direct testimony so I got a better idea of things.

        1. macavitykitsune
          macavitykitsune September 7, 2013 at 2:59 pm |

          Captain Awkward’s archives are a good place to search for personal testimonials re: socialisation. I strongly recommend the “relationships” and “manipulation” tags. \The comments sections are filled with anecdotes and examples.

        2. tigtog
          tigtog September 7, 2013 at 7:25 pm | *

          This is probably a discussion that would find more participants on #spillover because it won’t be a derail over there (hint hint). I’ve always found this quote from a Joanna Russ essay to be quite perceptive as a nutshell summary of the differences in how children within the same family are raised though (and how that feeds into expectations of adult behaviour):

          Our society runs on self-aggrandizement for men and self-abasement for women

  17. Willemina
    Willemina September 6, 2013 at 1:03 am |

    Something about the cadence of the narrating put me off a bit. Being able to read along exposes the beats you’re taking that aren’t there in the text and the stilted-ness really popped for me in those instances. It drew away from the otherwise soothing and trance-like tone, music, and desert imagery.

    I licked everything else.

    1. pheenobarbidoll
      pheenobarbidoll September 6, 2013 at 1:24 am |

      ::giggling::

      1. Willemina
        Willemina September 7, 2013 at 1:11 am |

        I ran around the room doing the Snoopy dance then watched Portlandia’s vintage clothing store sketch in honor of your giggle.

        I’ve also just noticed I said desert instead of dessert. >.<

        1. pheenobarbidoll
          pheenobarbidoll September 7, 2013 at 1:47 am |

          Heh :)

    2. Echo Zen
      Echo Zen September 6, 2013 at 2:11 am |

      I’m glad you licked most of it, Willemina. If we had a Facebook Page, I would suggest you to lick it too. :-p

      I had no idea the cadences were throwing people off. I’m guessing it’s the way the narrator drags out certain vowels for conversational effect, so I’ll make sure he narrates more matter-of-factly next time. Actually, we’re in the midst of editing the second episode, and for the most part he did a better job of not speaking with an overdramatic drawl!

      1. Willemina
        Willemina September 7, 2013 at 11:45 am |

        Just to elaborate a bit, I could kinda dig the way he spoke if there weren’t the words there. That, I’m guessing, would be a deal breaker though since closed captioning on youtube is pretty naff. I’ll watch the evolution with interest though, how long is this going to run?

  18. Fat Steve
    Fat Steve September 6, 2013 at 1:36 am |
  19. Fat Steve
    Fat Steve September 6, 2013 at 1:48 am |

    Look, if a guy has a girlfriend that is breathtakingly attractive, with whom he is hugely sexual compatible and they share common interests, yet she can be frequently mean, frustrating, insensitive and insulting to his friends; NO ONE is going to say ‘oh that guy just doesn’t like nice girls.’ Why is it so obvious that a man is dating a woman for the qualities that he likes? Then it is assumed a woman is clearly dating a beautiful man with enormous sexual prowess, and bags of charm, but happens to be incredibly jerky at times. solely because she doesn’t like guys who treat her well.

    It’s not just misogynist, it’s stupid and utterly illogical.

    1. theLaplaceDemon
      theLaplaceDemon September 6, 2013 at 9:22 am |

      +1

      1. littlem
        littlem September 6, 2013 at 2:19 pm |

        I … think I’d like this better if Alara Rogers hadn’t already said it upthread (and this commenter had acknowledged such).

        Does this commenter have anything original to *add*?

        1. Fat Steve
          Fat Steve September 7, 2013 at 12:44 am |

          I … think I’d like this better if Alara Rogers hadn’t already said it upthread (and this commenter had acknowledged such).

          Does this commenter have anything original to *add*?

          The commenter has been known to smoke too much weed and miss the obvious, so yes, I failed to notice the similarities in my overall theme with that of Alara’s until you pointed out to her. Acknowledged.

          However I do think I summed it up far more succinctly than her, which qualifies as something “original to *add*,” but you can feel free to have the opposite opinion. No doubt your opinion is more valuable than mine.

        2. tinfoil hattie
          tinfoil hattie September 7, 2013 at 10:32 am |

          Geezus, Fat Steve, put down the joint and LISTEN. Are you really playing (“joking about”) “my mansplanation is better than a woman’s original point, because …” on a feminist blog?

        3. Fat Steve
          Fat Steve September 7, 2013 at 11:04 am |

          Geezus, Fat Steve, put down the joint and LISTEN. Are you really playing (“joking about”) “my mansplanation is better than a woman’s original point, because …” on a feminist blog?

          Yes, of course, but I was joking about it at my own expense, saying I’m the idiot mainsplainer due to being high.

        4. Willemina
          Willemina September 7, 2013 at 11:41 am |

          ::Eyeroll::

          Not at you hattie, all for the “comedian.” Lurv the passive aggressive martyr bid at the end.

        5. Fat Steve
          Fat Steve September 7, 2013 at 11:47 am |

          ::Eyeroll::

          Not at you hattie, all for the “comedian.” Lurv the passive aggressive martyr bid at the end.

          Willemina, we have had a number of conversations on here before, you can feel free to address me (i.e. not in the third person) if you think I’m being jerky.

        6. Fat Steve
          Fat Steve September 7, 2013 at 11:53 am |

          Also, since the topic of this post was sex and ‘Nice Guys,’ I might suggest that all discussion about how stupid I am for not noticing I made a comment similar to someone else’s be directed to Spillover #8.

  20. tinfoil hattie
    tinfoil hattie September 6, 2013 at 4:32 pm |

    PS: I found the video overwhelmingly WHITE.

    1. Echo Zen
      Echo Zen September 7, 2013 at 12:58 am |

      Yeah, that’s something we noticed right now whilst building the video. The problem was most of the stock images available to us in HD (with HD being a mandatory project specification, for university future-proofing) were of… well, white people and celebrities, despite our crew being entirely WOC/POC. For now that’s a structural problem with no easy solution, other than relying more on drawings than on photos in future episodes…

      1. tinfoil hattie
        tinfoil hattie September 7, 2013 at 10:36 am |

        Hmmm. Not surprising about the stock images, but it pisses me off anyway. I imagine it might have felt quite frustrating to you and your crew.

        AND, I forgot to say, nice job on the execution in spite of the “whiteness.” I actually liked the desserts! I also didn’t think the narration was bad, at all. Sort of humorously “clinical.”

        And, naturally, I loved the subject matter and the brilliance of your idea.

  21. Sharon M
    Sharon M September 6, 2013 at 7:06 pm |

    *shudders* content note: murder
    Anytime I hear the term Nice Guy ™ it reminds me of this creep:


    Shockingly some people excused him and felt sorry for him b/c he hadn’t had sex for decades. D:

  22. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
    The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 3:37 am |

    I’ve read lots of descriptions of the NiceGuy(TM) but that was probably the pithiest. Nicely done!

    1. Echo Zen
      Echo Zen September 8, 2013 at 4:22 am |

      That’s a relief to hear, since that’s the precise purpose of these episodes! With all the feedback we’re getting, my hope is people will see their suggestions concretely reflected in the next episode, which should be out… next week. Still experimenting with making desserts less distracting (by using a slow-mo algorithm) and text more visible!

      1. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
        The Kittehs' Unpaid Help September 8, 2013 at 4:50 am |

        Ah, I read the transcript, didn’t look at the video. I tend to go for text. :)

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